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Author Topic: Merged discussion of all things Milan Synod  (Read 26584 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #360 on: June 13, 2011, 05:07:10 AM »

Why a panikhida for Lenin would be a bad thing? He needs our prayers.
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« Reply #361 on: June 13, 2011, 05:15:15 AM »

The Patriarch of Constantinople has conclebrated the Liturgy-in Rome-with the Pope-on several occasions ...
No he hasn't.
Next.

Technically he probably has.  He has celebrated the Liturgy of the Word at Mass with the Pope. 
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« Reply #362 on: June 13, 2011, 05:19:30 AM »

The Patriarch of Constantinople has conclebrated the Liturgy-in Rome-with the Pope-on several occasions ...
No he hasn't.
Next.

Technically he probably has.  He has celebrated the Liturgy of the Word at Mass with the Pope. 
Ah yes, the liturgy of the word, after which he departed while the Mass continued with the Liturgy of the Eucharist (the same point at which we dismiss the unbaptised catechumens). You mean that "liturgy"?
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« Reply #363 on: June 13, 2011, 06:20:13 AM »

Just as I said: Now, the excuse is that "he doesnt concelebrate the enitre Liturgy" ... he left, but did most certainly return after communion ... when the Ecumenical Patriarch finally does concelebrate with the Pope during an entire Liturgy, when they share the "common cup," which they both desire to do so very much ... there will be yet another excuse why "it's OK." But the undeniable fact, unless, perhaps except in case of soem organic brain disorder, is that the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople did, indeed, concelebrate. I also may add that, at least in the U.S., I have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens, much less actually dismiss them ...

During the Pope's visit to the Phanar in 2006, "the Pope was received as though he were a canonical (proper) bishop of Rome. During the service, the Pope wore an omophoron; he was addressed by the Ecumenical Patriarch with the greeting “blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord” as though it were Christ the Lord; he blessed the congregation and he was commemorated as “most holy” and “His Beatitude the Bishop of Rome”. Furthermore, all of the Pope’s officiating clergy wore an omophoron during the Orthodox Divine Liturgy; also, the reciting of the Lord’s Prayer, his liturgical embrace with the Patriarch, were displays of something more than common prayer. And all of this, when the papist institution has not budged at all from its heretical teachings and its policy; on the contrary, the Pope is in fact visibly promoting and trying to reinforce Unia along with the Papist dogmas on primacy and infallibility, and is going even further, with inter-faith common prayers and the pan-religious hegemony of the Pope of Rome that is discerned therein."
The Official Statement from Mt. Athos on the Pope's Visit to the Phanar (2006)

But that's all OK, too, right ozgeorge? I mean-anything a Patriarch of Constantinople does is OK, right? I mean-ain't he like the ... well, you know, of Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #364 on: June 13, 2011, 06:29:29 AM »

Just as I said: Now, the excuse is that "he doesnt concelebrate the enitre Liturgy" ... he left, but did most certainly return after communion ...
Emphasis mine.
[sarcasm] Wait a minute! Does that mean he was publicly stating that he is NOT in communion with them by REFUSING to participate in the Eucharist with the Pope? Good gracious! And all this time I was so sure that we were in Communion with the Vatican. Well thanks for clearing that up. [/sarcasm] Roll Eyes
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« Reply #365 on: June 13, 2011, 06:52:21 AM »

Sarcasm ... haha ... you so funny ... I get it. Too bad I dont get any answers ... but, what else can be expected? Yeh, sure, your right: "he's" not in communion with Rome ... yet. "He" also stated he was so very sorrowful that they were not able to yet "share the common cup." So, when "he" finally gets "his" wish, you along for that ride too? Or perhaps you can explain why "he" has courted after Popes since his accession as Patriarch of Istan ... oops ... Constantinople (didn't they change the name of that place like about 600 years ago or somethin? be nice if "he" was as worried about -uh- some other stuff as he is about hangin' wit da Pope, and the old, outdated name of a Muslim city! i heard its purty cool tho-all them big mosques and stuff ... I heard there is like one real big mosque ... but, hecky naaawww, the name of a city ... who cares! Of course, maybe Tsargrad would be kinda cool .... even better with rulers that capish the correspondin' lingo ... haha a joke! maybe a lil sarcasm too! haha get it? hows come you aint laughin ozzie? haha next year in Istanbul, dude!
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« Reply #366 on: June 13, 2011, 07:33:51 AM »

"But against the spiritual weapons of Christ's warriors, the evil one gathered all the forces of the world's first satanist regime. The interdiction of Metropolitan Sergius were the sign for the Soviet Political Police to arrest and banish the protesting bishops; even many who attended Sergius' own "legal" churches were not spared by the authorities, and the chief result of the policy of "Sergianism"—to quote the words, born of bitter experience used forty years later inside the USSR by Boris Talantov—was that "Metropolitan Sergius' actions saved nothing except his own skin." A dark night in expiatory suffering settled upon the Russian land and faithful."

from St. Joseph of Petrograd and the Beginning of the Catacomb Church by I.M. Andreyev
found at ROCOR History blog http://rocorhistory.blogspot.com/2008/11/im-andreyev-st-joseph-of-petrograd.html
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« Reply #367 on: June 13, 2011, 07:45:30 AM »

I also may add that, at least in the U.S., I have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens, much less actually dismiss them ...


Well, you cannot say that anymore because I attest that in my "New Calendar" OCA church our priest has never skipped over the Litany of the Cathechumens, to include the concluding prayer and their dismissal.
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« Reply #368 on: June 13, 2011, 08:08:19 AM »

I wonder what the opinion of the "Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia" would be towards restoring the reading of the Old Testament in the Divine Liturgy. This was discontinued in the 8th c. I believe so St. John Chrysostom would have read the OT in  Divine liturgies he celebrated I presume.
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« Reply #369 on: June 13, 2011, 08:22:20 AM »

I wonder what the opinion of the "Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia" would be towards restoring the reading of the Old Testament in the Divine Liturgy. This was discontinued in the 8th c. I believe so St. John Chrysostom would have read the OT in  Divine liturgies he celebrated I presume.

Why change what works perfectly at present? The OT is read at Matins in preparation for the Divine Liturgy. I hope you're not serious!
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« Reply #370 on: June 13, 2011, 08:37:49 AM »

I have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens, much less actually dismiss them ...

I have never heard of a New nor Old calendar church that actually dismisses the Catechumens or anyone else for that matter but the Litany of the Catechumens is most certainly part of Finnish liturgies.
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« Reply #371 on: June 13, 2011, 08:40:40 AM »

I wonder what the opinion of the "Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia" would be towards restoring the reading of the Old Testament in the Divine Liturgy. This was discontinued in the 8th c. I believe so St. John Chrysostom would have read the OT in  Divine liturgies he celebrated I presume.

Why change what works perfectly at present? The OT is read at Matins in preparation for the Divine Liturgy. I hope you're not serious!
Why? This was part of ancient tradition. This will probably never happen but what would be the problem of having an OT reading restored alongside the epistle & the Gospel?
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« Reply #372 on: June 13, 2011, 09:16:55 AM »

I have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens, much less actually dismiss them ...

I have never heard of a New nor Old calendar church that actually dismisses the Catechumens or anyone else for that matter but the Litany of the Catechumens is most certainly part of Finnish liturgies.
And at our Monastery under the Oecumenical Patriarchate. So that's three New Calendar Churches that do it.  Perhaps mwoerl needs to mix in a few wider circles?
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« Reply #373 on: June 13, 2011, 09:20:19 AM »

I also may add that, at least in the U.S., I have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens, much less actually dismiss them ...


Well, you cannot say that anymore because I attest that in my "New Calendar" OCA church our priest has never skipped over the Litany of the Cathechumens, to include the concluding prayer and their dismissal.

My OCA church also has the litany and the "catechumens depart!" at the end.
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« Reply #374 on: June 13, 2011, 11:14:36 AM »

I also may add that, at least in the U.S., I have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens, much less actually dismiss them ...
Huh

While I have never seen catechumen ushered to the door, both of the churches I have regularly attended have the litany, and one of them included the traditional "let all catechumen depart."
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« Reply #375 on: June 13, 2011, 11:32:09 AM »

The Patriarch of Constantinople has conclebrated the Liturgy-in Rome-with the Pope-on several occasions ...
No he hasn't.
Next.

Technically he probably has.  He has celebrated the Liturgy of the Word at Mass with the Pope. 
Ah yes, the liturgy of the word, after which he departed while the Mass continued with the Liturgy of the Eucharist (the same point at which we dismiss the unbaptised catechumens). You mean that "liturgy"?

Touche!
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« Reply #376 on: June 13, 2011, 11:37:19 AM »

"But against the spiritual weapons of Christ's warriors, the evil one gathered all the forces of the world's first satanist regime. The interdiction of Metropolitan Sergius were the sign for the Soviet Political Police to arrest and banish the protesting bishops; even many who attended Sergius' own "legal" churches were not spared by the authorities, and the chief result of the policy of "Sergianism"—to quote the words, born of bitter experience used forty years later inside the USSR by Boris Talantov—was that "Metropolitan Sergius' actions saved nothing except his own skin." A dark night in expiatory suffering settled upon the Russian land and faithful."

from St. Joseph of Petrograd and the Beginning of the Catacomb Church by I.M. Andreyev
found at ROCOR History blog http://rocorhistory.blogspot.com/2008/11/im-andreyev-st-joseph-of-petrograd.html

As I said, nothing new here that is going to change any minds. They same argument has been going about for the past eighty years or so.
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« Reply #377 on: June 13, 2011, 11:44:24 AM »

"But against the spiritual weapons of Christ's warriors, the evil one gathered all the forces of the world's first satanist regime. The interdiction of Metropolitan Sergius were the sign for the Soviet Political Police to arrest and banish the protesting bishops; even many who attended Sergius' own "legal" churches were not spared by the authorities, and the chief result of the policy of "Sergianism"—to quote the words, born of bitter experience used forty years later inside the USSR by Boris Talantov—was that "Metropolitan Sergius' actions saved nothing except his own skin." A dark night in expiatory suffering settled upon the Russian land and faithful."

from St. Joseph of Petrograd and the Beginning of the Catacomb Church by I.M. Andreyev
found at ROCOR History blog http://rocorhistory.blogspot.com/2008/11/im-andreyev-st-joseph-of-petrograd.html

As I said, nothing new here that is going to change any minds. They same argument has been going about for the past eighty years or so.

And you are absolutely correct, for the past eighty years or so there has been no significant change in Russia and the MP.
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« Reply #378 on: June 13, 2011, 11:50:40 AM »

"But against the spiritual weapons of Christ's warriors, the evil one gathered all the forces of the world's first satanist regime. The interdiction of Metropolitan Sergius were the sign for the Soviet Political Police to arrest and banish the protesting bishops; even many who attended Sergius' own "legal" churches were not spared by the authorities, and the chief result of the policy of "Sergianism"—to quote the words, born of bitter experience used forty years later inside the USSR by Boris Talantov—was that "Metropolitan Sergius' actions saved nothing except his own skin." A dark night in expiatory suffering settled upon the Russian land and faithful."

from St. Joseph of Petrograd and the Beginning of the Catacomb Church by I.M. Andreyev
found at ROCOR History blog http://rocorhistory.blogspot.com/2008/11/im-andreyev-st-joseph-of-petrograd.html

As I said, nothing new here that is going to change any minds. They same argument has been going about for the past eighty years or so.

And you are absolutely correct, for the past eighty years or so there has been no significant change in Russia and the MP.

Hmmm..While one may argue, and quite properly, that the military and industrial classes of Russia are more interested in preserving hegemony and oligarchy, I can't agree with you about the state of the Church in post-Soviet Russia.

Look, I disagree with you about many, many important issues, but I would never presume to judge you on the sincerity or depth of your faith.

What I perceive from your words and those of your fellow communicant here is that you do extend us the same respect. So be it, but at least admit this if I am correct. If I am in error, then please try to change the tone and tenor of your writing so as to convince me and others of this.
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« Reply #379 on: June 13, 2011, 12:06:55 PM »

I am, by training a pastoral counselor, not a historian nor a researcher. This means I am not about to scour the internet for the articles I've read. But I recall reading in Russian online press where the MP backed CIS govt have persecuted, arrested and seized the properties of ROCOR (Agafangel) if I'm not so senile at 53.  The relationship between the MP/Russia is not so very different than the MP/Soviets. There is no separation of church-state like in the West.
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« Reply #380 on: June 13, 2011, 12:45:48 PM »

I have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens,

Mine does.
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« Reply #381 on: June 13, 2011, 01:03:40 PM »

I have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens,

Mine does.
I attended an OCA parish that used this litany in the DL also & we  include this with the Lenten pre Sanctified Liturgy in the Antiochian Church (N.A.).
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« Reply #382 on: June 13, 2011, 01:34:46 PM »

According to Bishop Jerome, a liturgics expert, linguist, and past valedictorian of Holy Trinity Seminary, the number of ancient Christian rites (among the various Eastern and Western rites of the historic Orthodox Church) which had an Old Testament reading at the Liturgy, was small by comparison with those which had simply an epistle and a gospel. There is zero evidence that the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom ever included an Old Testament (prophetical) reading.

Regarding the partial concelebration between the Pope and the Green Patriarch, we have to be careful before condemning with too broad a brush. For example, St. Tikhon the New Confessor often went to services in heterodox churches early in the 20th century, and he would wear vestments, and he would give a blessing to the congregation, and would sometimes give the sermon. But I do not think he was of the belief that Orthodoxy and Otherdoxy are really the same deep down.

So we have to always ask, "Did this new calendarist hierarch concelebrate in a way that St. Tikhon did, or in a way exceeding the bounds of what St. Tikhon, a man of God, did?" Until one is sure about that, one is advised not to bandy about all manner of slurs.
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« Reply #383 on: June 13, 2011, 02:57:01 PM »

So we have to always ask, "Did this new calendarist hierarch concelebrate in a way that St. Tikhon did, or in a way exceeding the bounds of what St. Tikhon, a man of God, did?" Until one is sure about that, one is advised not to bandy about all manner of slurs.

Is St. Tikhon an Orthodox oracle? He could bee wrong sometimes too.
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« Reply #384 on: June 13, 2011, 03:03:59 PM »

I am, by training a pastoral counselor, not a historian nor a researcher. This means I am not about to scour the internet for the articles I've read. But I recall reading in Russian online press where the MP backed CIS govt have persecuted, arrested and seized the properties of ROCOR (Agafangel) if I'm not so senile at 53.  The relationship between the MP/Russia is not so very different than the MP/Soviets. There is no separation of church-state like in the West.

No there is not, but neither is there such in Greece and elsewhere in both western, central and eastern Europe.  This issue will get you a whole new argument from some on these pages! The concept of state favored or a state established religion has been debated here at length and my position against such favoritism is well documented here.
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« Reply #385 on: June 13, 2011, 03:44:49 PM »

So we have to always ask, "Did this new calendarist hierarch concelebrate in a way that St. Tikhon did, or in a way exceeding the bounds of what St. Tikhon, a man of God, did?" Until one is sure about that, one is advised not to bandy about all manner of slurs.

Is St. Tikhon an Orthodox oracle? He could bee wrong sometimes too.

Saints aren't infallible but it is good to know how different saints approached different issues. Since Orthodoxy is not an abstract construction made on basis of literature but a living experience I believe saints who have actually achieved holiness tend to know better than those us who "know" these things from books and websites. I'd say it's rather humbling to know that there is at least one saint who had more irenic approach to the heterodox.
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« Reply #386 on: June 13, 2011, 04:14:10 PM »

Ever wonder if on the top of these things the real problem is MONEY. 
Just saying.
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« Reply #387 on: June 13, 2011, 04:28:17 PM »

And at our Monastery under the Oecumenical Patriarchate. So that's three New Calendar Churches that do it.  Perhaps mwoerl needs to mix in a few wider circles?

I was speaking in reference to the US ... I would love to 'mix' in a few wider circles, instead of all the running around them here ... and ... the Finnish Orthodox Church, eh? Is that a circle you mix in Ozman?
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« Reply #388 on: June 13, 2011, 04:36:46 PM »

The Patriarch of Constantinople has conclebrated the Liturgy-in Rome-with the Pope-on several occasions ...
No he hasn't.
Next.

Technically he probably has.  He has celebrated the Liturgy of the Word at Mass with the Pope.  

Ah yes, the liturgy of the word, after which he departed while the Mass continued with the Liturgy of the Eucharist (the same point at which we dismiss the unbaptised catechumens). You mean that "liturgy"?


Of course he doesn't in fact depart.  He sits at the right hand side of the Altar just a couple of yards from the Pope.  At the ending of the Mass he pops back into the liturgical action again and administers a joint blessing with the Pope to conclude the Eucharist.
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« Reply #389 on: June 13, 2011, 07:18:28 PM »

I was speaking in reference to the US ... I would love to 'mix' in a few wider circles, instead of all the running around them here ... and ... the Finnish Orthodox Church, eh? Is that a circle you mix in Ozman?
Well, I talk to a member of the Finnish Orthodox Church who posts here mwoelwoman (I decided not to be sexist by assuming that you're a man).
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« Reply #390 on: June 13, 2011, 10:21:21 PM »

And at our Monastery under the Oecumenical Patriarchate. So that's three New Calendar Churches that do it.  Perhaps mwoerl needs to mix in a few wider circles?

I was speaking in reference to the US ... I would love to 'mix' in a few wider circles, instead of all the running around them here ... and ... the Finnish Orthodox Church, eh? Is that a circle you mix in Ozman?
My experience(s) with the liturgy of the catechumens was in the OCA Diocese of the South and the Antiochian Diocese of Miami and the Southeast. Both are clearly in the U.S. and both are very much in the mainstream of U.S. Orthodoxy.

I cannot speak for the Greeks, but those represent two of the three largest jurisdictions -- all New Calendar -- in the U.S. You can criticize New Calendar churches for many things, but the assertion that you "...have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens" means that you have either been misled or were never actively listening.
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« Reply #391 on: June 14, 2011, 12:18:08 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
I am, by training a pastoral counselor, not a historian nor a researcher. This means I am not about to scour the internet for the articles I've read. But I recall reading in Russian online press where the MP backed CIS govt have persecuted, arrested and seized the properties of ROCOR (Agafangel) if I'm not so senile at 53.  The relationship between the MP/Russia is not so very different than the MP/Soviets. There is no separation of church-state like in the West.
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« Reply #392 on: June 14, 2011, 12:20:58 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
I also may add that, at least in the U.S., I have NEVER heard of a New calendar Church that even includes the Litany of the Catechumens, much less actually dismiss them ...
You in the U.S., and never heard of the OCA?
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« Reply #393 on: June 14, 2011, 10:40:12 AM »

According to Bishop Jerome, a liturgics expert, linguist, and past valedictorian of Holy Trinity Seminary, the number of ancient Christian rites (among the various Eastern and Western rites of the historic Orthodox Church) which had an Old Testament reading at the Liturgy, was small by comparison with those which had simply an epistle and a gospel. There is zero evidence that the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom ever included an Old Testament (prophetical) reading.

Regarding the partial concelebration between the Pope and the Green Patriarch, we have to be careful before condemning with too broad a brush. For example, St. Tikhon the New Confessor often went to services in heterodox churches early in the 20th century, and he would wear vestments, and he would give a blessing to the congregation, and would sometimes give the sermon. But I do not think he was of the belief that Orthodoxy and Otherdoxy are really the same deep down.

So we have to always ask, "Did this new calendarist hierarch concelebrate in a way that St. Tikhon did, or in a way exceeding the bounds of what St. Tikhon, a man of God, did?" Until one is sure about that, one is advised not to bandy about all manner of slurs.

Re the Old Testament readings in the liturgy: I have found in the scholarship of Hugh Wybrew, Yiannis Vitaliotis, & Fr Lawrence Farley that the reading of one of the prophets was considered standard in sequence to the epistle and Gospel in the time of St. John Chrysostom. Apparently there must be differing perspectives on how widespread this was?
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« Reply #394 on: June 15, 2011, 05:19:06 PM »

I get the impression that, regarding early usages on the number and type of readings at the Liturgy or Mass, scholars back-engineered their conclusions; that is, that they looked at the rites which have Old Testament readings in them, and those which don't, and concluded that very likely the Old Testatment readings were originally present in most rites, but then later dropped out as rites were shortened. However, another hypothesis is that the Old Testament readings were added to the rites which have them, not subtracted from the ones which don't.

If there is any primary evidence for Old Testament readings in ancient times across the board, from Eastern rite to Eastern rite, and from Western rite to Western rite, (the Roman rite is a partial example, but has such readings only in the Nativity season), I'd sure like to see it. I have not found any majority pattern thus far.

And one more thing which can confuse the liturgical scholar: It is very common for ancient commentators on the Eastern and Western rites to refer to the "reading from the Old Testament" when what they intend by this, is to refer to the Prokeimenon (in Eastern rite) or the Graduale or Responsoriale (in Western rite). However, those aren't full-fledged readings, in the sense of true scriptural pericopes, although they are Old Testament texts done aloud.
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« Reply #395 on: June 15, 2011, 05:37:29 PM »

I get the impression that, regarding early usages on the number and type of readings at the Liturgy or Mass, scholars back-engineered their conclusions; that is, that they looked at the rites which have Old Testament readings in them, and those who don't, and concluded that very likely the Old Testatment readings were originally present in most rites, but then later dropped out as rites were shortened. However, another hypothesis is that the Old Testament readings were added to the rites which have them, not subtracted from the ones which don't.

If there is any primary evidence for Old Testament readings in Chrysostom or any other major Eastern or Western Liturgy, as a standard or majority dynamic across regionary rites, I'd sure like to see it. I have not found any thus far.

And one more thing which can confuse the liturgical scholar: It is very common for ancient commentators on the Eastern and Western rites to refer to the reading from the Old Testament when all they intend, is to refer to the Prokeimenon (in Eastern rite) or the Graduale or Responsoriale (in Western rite). However, those aren't full-fledged readings, in the sense of true scriptural pericopes, although they are Old Testament texts done aloud.


How do scholars treat the three psalms that are chanted during Divine Liturgy in Slavic practice? I am referring to the psalms appointed for ordinary Sundays: first antiphon (Psalm 102), second antiphon (Psalm 145) and the post-communion hymn (Psalm 33).
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« Reply #396 on: June 15, 2011, 05:53:07 PM »

They treat them very badly. Very badly indeed.
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« Reply #397 on: September 12, 2011, 08:35:35 PM »

sorry but  this fr john lobue i know  him for years  his church was founded by fr francis brothers  who at one time was under the russian patrairch  then  left after a short time not wanting be demoted to be a mitered  monk then he died in the 1970's  and a bishop mc cormick ran the church up until his death  and he passed the reigns of leadership tohis junior  fr lobue who was just  ordained a few years earlier by mccormick   the headquaters of this church is  runned out of a hunting lodge  they owns  in west milford nj and in the 80's the church  was called  the synod of orthodox bishops of the western rite and  then  in the  early 90's they got involved with the so called  patriarch  of kiev  church  they stayed a bit and realized his was a fraud and left his  church then  got involved in the synod of the milan  who now they  have broken  off commuion  with   so now  they are a self isolated  jurisdiction on a junk yard  property  with a half finished  church a broken down falling apart  house with 3 clergy man living thier and  a nun  who lives in a trailer on the property with a bunch of cats and has a tv  and she  lives in the winter months on the couch of the living room  in the same house as the 3 male clergy  as with a bunch of cats  the place smells of cat and dog  waste this fr lobue has a natty hair style looks like dread locks  torn cassock and the so called 31 churches are home churches other then the west milford nj and woodstock ny  property the autonomous orthodox  synod of the americas and british isles have no real  physical churches  oh did i mention  fr lobue  owns a tv  if you want to see if these people are on the level  just visit them and talk to them in   west milford the condition of their  so called new york new jersey  diocese and how they act  and talk shows they are not really monks or clergy just a bunch of people  playing dress up  and playing church
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« Reply #398 on: September 12, 2011, 08:43:58 PM »

sorry but  this fr john lobue i know  him for years  his church was founded by fr francis brothers  who at one time was under the russian patrairch  the left after a short time not wanting to be a mitered  monk the he died and a bishop mc cormick ran the church who ordained this  fr lobue in the 1970's they owned this  hunting bungalow in west milford nj and in the 80's they changed thier name to the synod of orthodox bishops of the western rite  the in the 90's they got involved with the fake patriarch  of kiev currently they are a self isolated  jurisdiction on a junk yard  property with a half finished  church a broken down house with 3 clergy man living thier  a nun  who lives in a trailer and has a tv  and lives in the winter months on the couch of the living room right near in the same house as the 3 male clergy  as with a bunch of cats  the place smells of cat and dog  waste this fr lobue has a natty hair style looks like dread locks  torn cassock and the so called 31 churches are home churches other then the west milford  and woodstock ny  property the autonomous orthodox  synod of the americas and british isles have no real  physical churches  oh did i mention  fr lobue  owns a tv  if you want to see if these people are on the level  just visit  west milford the condition of their  so called ny nj headquarters  prove they are just a bunch of people dressing up and playing church

Woh, a TV? That's some serious #$%^!
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« Reply #399 on: September 12, 2011, 09:11:57 PM »

I disagree with the severely isolationist stance of the Metropolia in West Milford. However, living in dilapidated buildings, or having unkempt hair, or having a rip in your cassock, is not cause for thinking less of anyone. How many saints have lived in filth! How many saints have had unkempt, matted hair, and dripping, untreated sores, and tattered clothing barely identifiable as "clothing," and smelled like urine and feces! Through their prayers may God have mercy on our cold, hard souls.

Having a television does not even begin to compare with canonical bishops who have run prostitution rings, threatened people with guns, or have physically assaulted clergy--never mind all their beautiful cathedrals, overflowing bank accounts, perfectly-pressed clothes, and immaculate grooming.

So let's concentrate on Orthodox standards, and not judge others' souls by standards of our own creation.
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« Reply #400 on: September 12, 2011, 09:24:12 PM »

fr lobue has a natty hair style looks like dread locks

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« Reply #401 on: September 12, 2011, 10:22:40 PM »

then  got involved in the synod of the milan  who now they  have broken  off commuion  with

Just to clear this part of your post up, it's more correct to say that the Synod of Milan broke communion with us & now they have become isolated as they are in communion with no one. The American Metropolia still maintains communion with all/most (I'm pretty sure all but I'm not 100% positive) of the TOC synods that the Synod of Milan was in communion  with right before they broke communion with all of us in an attempt to enter into communion with the Moscow Patriarchate.
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« Reply #402 on: September 12, 2011, 11:09:44 PM »

dear fr aiden  well you are correct about appearence but a church who changes name 4 times  thats not a bit strange  they started out as the old  catholic church in america  then the orthodox bishops of the western rite  and then under the ukrainian  patrairchal church  and now the autonomos orthodox metropoltia of the americas and the british isles  and what about  father  francis brothers who strated the original church in 1913  a very strange   person with a very  unorthodox  beliefs and  background when it comes  possioning a  truely vaild   ordaination it is questionable   and what do we know of that bishop mccormick  was he also a bishop with uncannonical  ordaination  and the patrairch of kiev who  elevated fr lobue to archbishop was his credentials vaild to do so and  what about the greek metropolitan  in milan  was did he have the right to make fr lobue a metropolitan  if not then fr lobue is really a  priest with false credentials  acting like a metropolitan but not  having the right to call oneselve a bishop  this makes  him a  man  dreesing up and acting like  and running a  church and what about those  who he ordains are they true ordaination or false ones since the  people  do not go to a seminary training does fr lobue even require  that all canidates  for the prietshood  have a  college education  deacons  do not need a college  education  but a priest  should have a 4 yr degree  and then the 3 yr seminary  training
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« Reply #403 on: September 12, 2011, 11:11:40 PM »

sorry but  this fr john lobue i know  him for years  his church was founded by fr francis brothers  who at one time was under the russian patrairch  then  left after a short time not wanting be demoted to be a mitered  monk then he died in the 1970's  and a bishop mc cormick ran the church up until his death  and he passed the reigns of leadership tohis junior  fr lobue who was just  ordained a few years earlier by mccormick   the headquaters of this church is  runned out of a hunting lodge  they owns  in west milford nj and in the 80's the church  was called  the synod of orthodox bishops of the western rite and  then  in the  early 90's they got involved with the so called  patriarch  of kiev  church  they stayed a bit and realized his was a fraud and left his  church then  got involved in the synod of the milan  who now they  have broken  off commuion  with   so now  they are a self isolated  jurisdiction on a junk yard  property  with a half finished  church a broken down falling apart  house with 3 clergy man living thier and  a nun  who lives in a trailer on the property with a bunch of cats and has a tv  and she  lives in the winter months on the couch of the living room  in the same house as the 3 male clergy  as with a bunch of cats  the place smells of cat and dog  waste this fr lobue has a natty hair style looks like dread locks  torn cassock and the so called 31 churches are home churches other then the west milford nj and woodstock ny  property the autonomous orthodox  synod of the americas and british isles have no real  physical churches  oh did i mention  fr lobue  owns a tv  if you want to see if these people are on the level  just visit them and talk to them in   west milford the condition of their  so called new york new jersey  diocese and how they act  and talk shows they are not really monks or clergy just a bunch of people  playing dress up  and playing church

I've had enough.

Godlessky, you are right.

Is it comfortable there in the winter? Not at all! How can it be with the drafts! (Forget your winter pilgrimage). It is on a mountain, and far from your nearest Quickie-mart and 7-Eleven. And let me go even further! The power goes out there at least twice a winter! The monks can be completely snowed in! Bears occasionally wander the premises! There's a fireplace-- THAT'S BROKEN! No hi-speed internet for guests in this monastery, either.

But why stop there? Let's let it all out! The monks follow that nasty Western custom of eating FOWL! And during fast days they don't eat till evening! And they fight over food! And with the exception of Vl John's episcopal visits, they only go get to go to the supermarket, the doctor, and out to eat occasionally! "Community involvement"? GET REAL! Most of the community doesn't even know these people are trapped there because they're up on that mountain! Flyers? Advertisements? Absolutely not. These people are obviously a drain on society, and contribute nothing. And no one even knows! Not even Jehovah's Witnesses can get to them!

And let me tell you about this weird teaching that Metropolitan John has that I've finally gotten over after reading Godlessky's post-- he told people that "suffering" is actually the "Christian life". Really? Yep. Suffering. Freaky, isn't it? And a "personal cross", like we're supposed to be Jesus or something. And that's how he keeps these oddballs in line, before they can get wise and find a real monastery instead of freezing their posteriors off in that nasty house. That's why the pets get such good food. And that's the best part of this whole ridiculous thing: he says that the world is supposed to "hate" us. SICK! It's like being in a cult! Like it's "us" against "them". Isn't this totally against the point of Jesus coming? Didn't he come to save us all!? It's all a big setup to keep us from getting what makes us happy in life.

I especially agree with this part:

Quote
if you want to see if these people are on the level  just visit them and talk to them in   west milford the condition of their  so called new york new jersey  diocese and how they act  and talk

I agree completely. Make a determination yourself.  There's something wrong up there on that monastery. VERY wrong. But you have to see it to believe it! Just watch out if you come during a non-fast period-- those "meatballs" are made of turkey. I can even confirm the rest. Are there cats there? Yes. An old house in need of repairs? Ditto. A torn cassock? Indeed. No great halls, no frescoes on the ceiling. Perhaps even holes on the ceiling.

Thanks, Fr Ambrose, for putting this on the Paradosis list for the world to see. I never would have known, and it opened my eyes. It is a "junkyard" there, and I need to focus on what God wants for me-- which is some good money, recognition, and maybe I can join a jurisdiction with a quality health care plan. I'm sick of this poor people stuff! I deserve more. (For crying out loud, I wrote four books! How come I can't write for Regina Press? I want my shot on Ancient Faith Radio!)

But is the faith preserved and are the offices performed? Sure, the monks will spend long hours doing the offices in full, as they were done in the Orthodox West 900 years ago. But who cares? This place sucks!
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« Reply #404 on: September 12, 2011, 11:12:25 PM »

sorry but  this [  ] i know ... 

you poor soul. I will pray for you.

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