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Author Topic: Merged discussion of all things Milan Synod  (Read 28832 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #315 on: June 08, 2011, 08:03:32 PM »


Fr Ambrose knows that our Metropolitan is not going to waste time responding to his idiotic posts;

Exactly why he goes to your sites and mine so he can turn our words around and spit them back at us.


Any chance of your backing up this assertion with an example or two of this "spitting"?
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« Reply #316 on: June 08, 2011, 08:07:04 PM »


And Fr Ambrose, stop making erroneous attributions ("senior monastic" among others) in my regards. You come across as solicitious. We know who's famous for that![/i]

  What is the meaning of soliticious?  I would take it to mean showing care, being concerned.
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« Reply #317 on: June 08, 2011, 08:11:30 PM »


...(to Fr Ambrose) That you'd like to turn his (i.e., Fr Symeon's) complaint into an official pronouncement is ridiculous.


Extremely ridiculous. Ludicrous even!

And Fr Ambrose, stop making erroneous attributions ("senior monastic" among others) in my regards. You come across as solicitious. We know who's famous for that!


Don't you know why he does that? He has identified me as the more level headed and tries to pit you and Fr Augustine against me. In his solicitous references he's trying to get me to join the other blind-hearted clergy to join the ill-fated ROCOR-MP
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 08:15:59 PM by PapaSymeon » Logged

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« Reply #318 on: June 08, 2011, 08:22:58 PM »


My position, is that the public should take seriously and trustworthy what they read on the three Official sites of our Metropolia. 1. milansynodusa.org  2. orthodoxwest.net 3.holynameabbey.org 



And there it  is, right there on your official site...  laugh

http://www.milansynodusa.org/2011/03/text-of-confession-of-faith-to-be.html#more

"d) For, if the Patriarchs and Hierarchs, who commit themselves to the teachings of these heresies, after repeated warnings, protests, groanings, petitions, tears, and earnest beggings, are indeed making the Bloodless Sacrifice of Jesus Christ in the Holy Liturgy (oh, what a fearful thought!), thus are indeed receiving the Immaculate Mysteries of the Most Holy Body and Precious Blood of Our Lord God Jesus Christ, then they do so to their own eternal damnation to the fires of hell, as the Blessed and Holy Apostle explains;

(e) Therefore, if they are under this deadly condemnation by the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ, due to their own willful wickedness (becoming inheritors to the accusation of St. Stephen the Protomartyr, “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye”..) , how much more must we pray continually for their conversion to Jesus Christ; yet, we must also refrain from contaminating ourselves with such darkness and wickedness. For what concord hath Light with darkness, Christ with Satan (for it is Satan that they [the innovating clergy and laymen] knowingly or unknowingly represent, to great sadness).


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« Reply #319 on: June 08, 2011, 08:27:06 PM »


My position, is that the public should take seriously and trustworthy what they read on the three Official sites of our Metropolia. 1. milansynodusa.org  2. orthodoxwest.net 3.holynameabbey.org 



And there it  is, right there on your official site...  laugh

http://www.milansynodusa.org/2011/03/text-of-confession-of-faith-to-be.html#more

"d) For, if the Patriarchs and Hierarchs, who commit themselves to the teachings of these heresies, after repeated warnings, protests, groanings, petitions, tears, and earnest beggings, are indeed making the Bloodless Sacrifice of Jesus Christ in the Holy Liturgy (oh, what a fearful thought!), thus are indeed receiving the Immaculate Mysteries of the Most Holy Body and Precious Blood of Our Lord God Jesus Christ, then they do so to their own eternal damnation to the fires of hell, as the Blessed and Holy Apostle explains;

(e) Therefore, if they are under this deadly condemnation by the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ, due to their own willful wickedness (becoming inheritors to the accusation of St. Stephen the Protomartyr, “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye”..) , how much more must we pray continually for their conversion to Jesus Christ; yet, we must also refrain from contaminating ourselves with such darkness and wickedness. For what concord hath Light with darkness, Christ with Satan (for it is Satan that they [the innovating clergy and laymen] knowingly or unknowingly represent, to great sadness).




And what did I say at « Reply #175 on: June 06, 2011, 03:50:52 PM » ?

« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 08:27:36 PM by PapaSymeon » Logged

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« Reply #320 on: June 08, 2011, 08:29:21 PM »


Oh, brother! I wrote that Fr Augustine wrote some commentary which was inspired by reading the silliness on this list. ...and I also know that Fr Augustine, a resident of the monastery, wanted to clarify some things said on this site.

And I hope the OC.net readers have read it. I hope they have also gone to the Metropolia's Official site and read the entire Clergy Confession.


I don't believe you. And here's why. Despite your claim, you have complained about the fan site, but more importantly, you refused to accept the existence of the Metropolia/MilanSynodUSA site for a couple of years. Even now, you bury it: the only exception is TOC-America.org, where I have complained about the site's potentially offensive existence for six months, and you have finally, perhaps out of fear you will finally be ordered to stop-- added the link.

The reason for this is because before that site's existence, you ran the Archdiocese website, the Abbey's website, and OrthodoxWest (the forum).  Effectively, anyone wanting to learn more about our Synod had to go through you. Even letters to Metropolitan John went through a domain you controlled! How odd!

So let me let you in on a little secret: part of why milansynodusa.org was designed the way it was was so that any number of people with very limited Internet skills could easily be added on and removed; there is never one single site administrator. That's why there are four people running it now. It was designed precisely to avoid any single person monopolizing control over the site. And this is its advantage over any other site run by our Synod.

Quote
Fr Ambrose knows that our Metropolitan is not going to waste time responding to his idiotic posts;

Exactly why he goes to your sites and mine so he can turn our words around and spit them back at us.

But I can defend my words. I don't have to appeal to authority to defend myself. If I say something that can be construed as heretical, I will either explain myself or retract. I don't need "official approbation"-- and never have-- because I don't make claims to speak on behalf of the Metropolitan.
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« Reply #321 on: June 08, 2011, 08:36:29 PM »


Oh, brother! I wrote that Fr Augustine wrote some commentary which was inspired by reading the silliness on this list. ...and I also know that Fr Augustine, a resident of the monastery, wanted to clarify some things said on this site.

And I hope the OC.net readers have read it. I hope they have also gone to the Metropolia's Official site and read the entire Clergy Confession.


I don't believe you. And here's why. Despite your claim, you have complained about the fan site, but more importantly, you refused to accept the existence of the Metropolia/MilanSynodUSA site for a couple of years. Even now, you bury it: the only exception is TOC-America.org, where I have complained about the site's potentially offensive existence for six months, and you have finally, perhaps out of fear you will finally be ordered to stop-- added the link.

The reason for this is because before that site's existence, you ran the Archdiocese website, the Abbey's website, and OrthodoxWest (the forum).  Effectively, anyone wanting to learn more about our Synod had to go through you. Even letters to Metropolitan John went through a domain you controlled! How odd!

So let me let you in on a little secret: part of why milansynodusa.org was designed the way it was was so that any number of people with very limited Internet skills could easily be added on and removed; there is never one single site administrator. That's why there are four people running it now. It was designed precisely to avoid any single person monopolizing control over the site. And this is its advantage over any other site run by our Synod.

Quote
Fr Ambrose knows that our Metropolitan is not going to waste time responding to his idiotic posts;

Exactly why he goes to your sites and mine so he can turn our words around and spit them back at us.

But I can defend my words. I don't have to appeal to authority to defend myself. If I say something that can be construed as heretical, I will either explain myself or retract. I don't need "official approbation"-- and never have-- because I don't make claims to speak on behalf of the Metropolitan.


This is exactly what Fr Ambrose likes to read and the Metropolitan does not want! I'll hold my tongue and get offline.
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« Reply #322 on: June 08, 2011, 08:46:02 PM »


Extremely ridiculous. Ludicrous even!

And Fr Ambrose, stop making erroneous attributions ("senior monastic" among others) in my regards. You come across as solicitious. We know who's famous for that!


Don't you know why he does that? He has identified me as the more level headed and tries to pit you and Fr Augustine against me. In his solicitous references he's trying to get me to join the other blind-hearted clergy to join the ill-fated ROCOR-MP

Yes, but here's how he knows it's working: you are still convinced that he is complimenting you and not manipulating you. I would never identify you as the most level headed because you respond most easily to goads. I'd say Fr Augustine is the most level headed.

Fr Ambrose has a good deal of precedent for his actions:

1) you publicly offered Jordanville as a good Orthodox place for people to go, well after the union;
2) your actions (the-royal-path.org) caused severe friction between us and members of the ROCOR-A;
3) your new site seems to be aimed to the same effect towards other Old Calendarists;
4) you've never retracted previous endorsements of World Orthodoxy, as well as your condemnatory attitude towards True Orthodox, or even your own compliments towards Fr Ambrose, as well as your attacks upon members of your Synod;
5) you've been the first to defend members of World Orthodoxy, and attack traditionalists in your own Synod, sometimes upsetting some enough to leave;
6) you initially attacked the clergy confession, then placed a copy of it on your own website (in an attempt to dilute web referencing of the original?)
7) you've engaged in public and private slander campaigns against me (including most recently implying I was possessed and blaming me for the clergy defections to World Orthodoxy).

So Fr Ambrose didn't need to "pit me against you". You've done a fantastic job alienating me all by yourself!

As for going to the ROCOR-MP, didn't you think that was a great idea even recently? Have you changed your mind? Because too often, you've not only debated Fr Ambrose, but oftentimes sounded just like him!

If SO, then perhaps you need to start speaking for yourself, not playing political games. Fr Ambrose can get into you because you let him, like a demon. You want to be a True Orthodox monk? ROOT OUT YOUR WORLD ORTHODOXY FROM WITHIN. Root out your pride, your "creative impulse", your self-will. Stop looking for the approval of those who wish your soul's destruction to join their own. Stop trying to talk for the Bishop and start listening to him!

And when you do that, you will have the respect of many, including me.

But I have no patience for pretense and posturing, and neither do many others. The rest of us have work to do.
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« Reply #323 on: June 08, 2011, 08:47:06 PM »

This is exactly what Fr Ambrose likes to read and the Metropolitan does not want! I'll hold my tongue and get offline.

As I understood it, the Metropolitan did not want us in general responding to Fr Ambrose because it's a waste of time.

That didn't seem to stop you!
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« Reply #324 on: June 08, 2011, 09:02:50 PM »


My position, is that the public should take seriously and trustworthy what they read on the three Official sites of our Metropolia. 1. milansynodusa.org  2. orthodoxwest.net 3.holynameabbey.org 



And there it  is, right there on your official site...  laugh

http://www.milansynodusa.org/2011/03/text-of-confession-of-faith-to-be.html#more

"d) For, if the Patriarchs and Hierarchs, who commit themselves to the teachings of these heresies, after repeated warnings, protests, groanings, petitions, tears, and earnest beggings, are indeed making the Bloodless Sacrifice of Jesus Christ in the Holy Liturgy (oh, what a fearful thought!), thus are indeed receiving the Immaculate Mysteries of the Most Holy Body and Precious Blood of Our Lord God Jesus Christ, then they do so to their own eternal damnation to the fires of hell, as the Blessed and Holy Apostle explains;

(e) Therefore, if they are under this deadly condemnation by the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ, due to their own willful wickedness (becoming inheritors to the accusation of St. Stephen the Protomartyr, “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye”..) , how much more must we pray continually for their conversion to Jesus Christ; yet, we must also refrain from contaminating ourselves with such darkness and wickedness. For what concord hath Light with darkness, Christ with Satan (for it is Satan that they [the innovating clergy and laymen] knowingly or unknowingly represent, to great sadness).




And what did I say at « Reply #175 on: June 06, 2011, 03:50:52 PM » ?



I am not really concerned about what you posted at 175.  I am concerned with the words of your Primate that

1.  we are, knowingly or unknowingly "representatives of Satan", and

2.  that if our Holy Mysteries are genuine then we are condemned to Hell by partaking of them.

That is all crystal clear and it is nasty nasty stuff!

"In qua mensura mensi fuerit, metietur Archiepiscopo."
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« Reply #325 on: June 08, 2011, 09:50:09 PM »


Oh, brother! I wrote that Fr Augustine wrote some commentary which was inspired by reading the silliness on this list. ...and I also know that Fr Augustine, a resident of the monastery, wanted to clarify some things said on this site.

And I hope the OC.net readers have read it. I hope they have also gone to the Metropolia's Official site and read the entire Clergy Confession.


I don't believe you. And here's why. Despite your claim, you have complained about the fan site, but more importantly, you refused to accept the existence of the Metropolia/MilanSynodUSA site for a couple of years. Even now, you bury it: the only exception is TOC-America.org, where I have complained about the site's potentially offensive existence for six months, and you have finally, perhaps out of fear you will finally be ordered to stop-- added the link.

The reason for this is because before that site's existence, you ran the Archdiocese website, the Abbey's website, and OrthodoxWest (the forum).  Effectively, anyone wanting to learn more about our Synod had to go through you. Even letters to Metropolitan John went through a domain you controlled! How odd!

So let me let you in on a little secret: part of why milansynodusa.org was designed the way it was was so that any number of people with very limited Internet skills could easily be added on and removed; there is never one single site administrator. That's why there are four people running it now. It was designed precisely to avoid any single person monopolizing control over the site. And this is its advantage over any other site run by our Synod.

Quote
Fr Ambrose knows that our Metropolitan is not going to waste time responding to his idiotic posts;

Exactly why he goes to your sites and mine so he can turn our words around and spit them back at us.

But I can defend my words. I don't have to appeal to authority to defend myself. If I say something that can be construed as heretical, I will either explain myself or retract. I don't need "official approbation"-- and never have-- because I don't make claims to speak on behalf of the Metropolitan.


This is exactly what Fr Ambrose likes to read and the Metropolitan does not want! I'll hold my tongue and get offline.

I don't really like to read this sort of thing.  It's a bit sad.

What I have always liked reading is your staunch opposition to the new spirit of isolationism which Dcn Joseph, Dcn Augustine, Fr Raphael and other recent converts have fostered in American Milan.  I'd say that you have lost the battle though, because it is obvious that it is this new group which has the Metropolitan's ear.
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« Reply #326 on: June 08, 2011, 10:43:54 PM »

I don't really like to read this sort of thing.  It's a bit sad.

What I have always liked reading is your staunch opposition to the new spirit of isolationism which Dcn Joseph, Dcn Augustine, Fr Raphael and other recent converts have fostered in American Milan.  I'd say that you have lost the battle though, because it is obvious that it is this new group which has the Metropolitan's ear.

Fr Symeon, this is an opportunity for you like no other: the battle line is clear and drawn, for now Fr Ambrose has named three clergy: yet you know there are quite a few more; there are many signers and supporters. This is obviously not about yourself versus myself. He claims we are "isolationist".  Why then do we reach out to members of other True Orthodox jurisdictions? We have isolated ourselves from no one but the innovators.

Fr Ambrose is clearly saying you are in opposition to us, as he has before, and we know what he stands for: World Orthodoxy, including an unrepentant Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthodox Christians, the New Calendar Church which violently persecuted the Old Calendarists for decades. He makes excuse with excuses in sins which cry out to God!

It is not enough to switch your tone, because it is not a genuine change. I appeal to you, Father Symeon. Make that change. Declare you stand with your Synod. Declare you stand with your brother clergy. Declare you reject World Orthodoxy and declare that you were wrong in the past about it.  Best of all, tell this man where he can finally go.

This is your chance for doubters among us to believe in your sincerity.

I am officially requesting that you substantiate your claim that " including an unrepentant Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthodox Christians".  Please provide any and all proof that you have in regards to the SMP being responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthdox Christians.  You can do this either publically or via Private Message.  You have up to 72 hours (3 days).  - Serb1389. General Fora Moderator
 You failed to comply serb1389's request. You receive a warning and have 3 days mare to do it - Michał Kalina.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 11:26:24 PM by serb1389 » Logged

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« Reply #327 on: June 08, 2011, 11:32:52 PM »

Quote
I am officially requesting that you substantiate your claim that " including an unrepentant Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthodox Christians".  Please provide any and all proof that you have in regards to the SMP being responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthdox Christians.  You can do this either publically or via Private Message.  You have up to 72 hours (3 days).  - Serb1389. General Fora Moderator

I will need the full 72 hours.
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« Reply #328 on: June 09, 2011, 05:55:10 PM »

Who does all this bickering glorify?
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« Reply #329 on: June 09, 2011, 07:52:57 PM »

Who does all this bickering glorify?

I believe it is an act of charity to point out to the members of American Milan that many of their clergy have now found homes in the Russian Church Abroad.   As their Church seems to be in a state of disintegration it should be welcome knowledge that somebody stands ready to assist them.

However, this inevitably leads to a certain amount of bickering since those still committed to American Milan come in on the "conversation" and they are naturally hurting that such a large percentage of their clergy have already transitioned to the Russian Church and there are more to come.


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« Reply #330 on: June 09, 2011, 10:09:51 PM »

Who does all this bickering glorify?

Certainly not the Church, especially if you are trying to persuade others of the legitimacy of one's cause. Someone looking into Orthodoxy from the outside world would get the impression that this dispute is monumentous in scope. The reality is that the percentage of Orthodox Christians involved with this discussion, or knowledgeable about the American Metropolia is minuscule in relation to the relatively small number of Orthodox as a whole in this country.

Frankly there is no 'proof', or lack thereof, of the Moscow Patriarchate's alleged complicity with the actions of the state during the Communist era that will satisfy the advocates of one position or the other.

This debate has gone on for well over seventy years and to perpetuate it serves no cause except that of
the true enemies of Orthodoxy. (I am not suggesting that the Deacon or the Monk of the Milan Synod are enemies of Orthodoxy. As a member of a church under the omophor of Patriarch Barthomew, I take the position that they are simply misguided.) I suggest that we all follow the courageous lead of the late Metropolitan Laurus (a true son of Carpatho-Rus I might add!) who made it his life's work during the last decade of his long life, to heal the rift within Russian Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #331 on: June 11, 2011, 12:16:45 AM »

We can argue this endlessly ... having observed all this for perhaps the past 30 years, I can say-and feel perfectly confident in saying so-that the fault is equal on both sides ... neither "World Orthodoxy" nor the "True Orthodox/Old Calendar" movement is lacking in hierarchs who are outright scoundrels, who seemingly have no faith whatsoever in anything "out of this world," who preach outright nonsense, and are absolutely oblivious to ANY Canons of the Orthodox Church except the one that supports their particular agenda on a given day ... the "official World Orthodox" side has particpated in blatant and outright persecution of those opposed to it, and seem much more eager to serve with the Pope and chase after Roman Catholics and Protestants to pray with than to have anything whatsoever to do with "dissident" Orthodox, much less give honest answers for their abuses, deceptions, and totally ignoring the Canons of the Orthodox Church ... the "True Orthodox/Old Calendar" movement is seemingly its own worst enemy ... the burtal and hateful polemics, the endless conspiracy theories about Jews, Masons, the Illuminati, the World Bank, going way past the boundaries of "ridiculous," with a plethora of "personalities" of questionable morality, and seemingly questionable sanity in a race to out hate each other ... whether it is right, wrong, indifferent, unfatithful, apostasy, or par for the course, to be expected, etc., people are growing tired of the ongoing circuses ... one side only cares about the West thinking they are "reasonable," the other only cares about continuing mutual condemnation and making the most shocking and psychotic sounding pronouncement about their "opponents."
To be honest, then along comes a "new player," the Milan Synod's "American Metropolia," with unknown, questionable leaders withand a track record that is ... well, lets say "spotty," jumping headlong into the game and apparently wanting to become a major player ... of course ... why not ... the more the merrier ... I guess ... if you can make a living out of it ... also, many of us have seen Mr Suaiden's "ROAC" phase, and all the resultant declarations of undying loyalty to Gregory of Buena Vista (talk about ... well, you know ....) Valentin Rusantsov, etc., etc., etc., .... I am getting tired of all of it. Really tired. Weary. Exhausted. And-any criticisms of that, or protests in defense of .... - you know-at this point, I really don't care .... please, don't waste your typing skills on me .... 
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« Reply #332 on: June 11, 2011, 12:25:37 AM »


We can argue this endlessly ... having observed all this for perhaps the past 30 years, I can say-and feel perfectly confident in saying so-that the fault is equal on both sides ... neither "World Orthodoxy" nor the "True Orthodox/Old Calendar" movement is lacking in hierarchs who are outright scoundrels, who seemingly have no faith whatsoever in anything "out of this world," who preach outright nonsense, and are absolutely oblivious to ANY Canons of the Orthodox Church except the one that supports their particular agenda on a given day ... the "official World Orthodox" side has particpated in blatant and outright persecution of those opposed to it, and seem much more eager to serve with the Pope and chase after Roman Catholics and Protestants to pray with than to have anything whatsoever to do with "dissident" Orthodox, much less give honest answers for their abuses, deceptions, and totally ignoring the Canons of the Orthodox Church ... the "True Orthodox/Old Calendar" movement is seemingly its own worst enemy ... the burtal and hateful polemics, the endless conspiracy theories about Jews, Masons, the Illuminati, the World Bank, going way past the boundaries of "ridiculous," with a plethora of "personalities" of questionable morality, and seemingly questionable sanity in a race to out hate each other ... whether it is right, wrong, indifferent, unfatithful, apostasy, or par for the course, to be expected, etc., people are growing tired of the ongoing circuses ... one side only cares about the West thinking they are "reasonable," the other only cares about continuing mutual condemnation and making the most shocking and psychotic sounding pronouncement about their "opponents."
To be honest, then along comes a "new player," the Milan Synod's "American Metropolia," with unknown, questionable leaders withand a track record that is ... well, lets say "spotty," jumping headlong into the game and apparently wanting to become a major player ... of course ... why not ... the more the merrier ... I guess ... if you can make a living out of it ... also, many of us have seen Mr Suaiden's "ROAC" phase, and all the resultant declarations of undying loyalty to Gregory of Buena Vista (talk about ... well, you know ....) Valentin Rusantsov, etc., etc., etc., .... I am getting tired of all of it. Really tired. Weary. Exhausted. And-any criticisms of that, or protests in defense of .... - you know-at this point, I really don't care .... please, don't waste your typing skills on me ....


And on the bright side..... tomorrow (Saturday) Fr Michael Dunstan of Mississippi will be received by chierothesia from the former Milan Synod USA at the ROCA cathedral by His Grace Bishop Jerome.  There is grace at work here, Michael, even in the face of all the awful things you have listed, and rightly.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 12:29:06 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #333 on: June 11, 2011, 12:34:28 AM »

"I believe it is an act of charity to point out to the members of American Milan that many of their clergy have now found homes in the Russian Church Abroad."

I love the Russian Church Abroad. I have loved it since around 1980. I love everything about it.   With the exception of one thing ... does anyone who has never been a member of the Russian Church Abroad have any idea whatsoever of how many -well, lets be blunt-idiots (and a lot worse) we have accepted as clergy, without any kind of "checking things out" at all? And the resultant harm to the faithful, in order to ... be kind to clergy wanna-be's? I dont know. I have heard the rationalizations ("the Bishops believe those who come to them ... they can't imagine someone asking to become Orthodox clergy would have any other motivation ....") ... By saying this, I do not mean to imply that any of the people coming from the Milan Synod are necessarily "bad apples." In a way, I don't see how they could be... God knows it seems we have had way more than our quota .... Just hope there are some 'safeguards' that have been put into place ...
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« Reply #334 on: June 11, 2011, 08:25:54 AM »

I love the Russian Church Abroad. I have loved it since around 1980. I love everything about it.   With the exception of one thing ... does anyone who has never been a member of the Russian Church Abroad have any idea whatsoever of how many -well, lets be blunt-idiots (and a lot worse) we have accepted as clergy, without any kind of "checking things out" at all? And the resultant harm to the faithful, in order to ... be kind to clergy wanna-be's? I dont know. I have heard the rationalizations ("the Bishops believe those who come to them ... they can't imagine someone asking to become Orthodox clergy would have any other motivation ....") ... By saying this, I do not mean to imply that any of the people coming from the Milan Synod are necessarily "bad apples." In a way, I don't see how they could be... God knows it seems we have had way more than our quota .... Just hope there are some 'safeguards' that have been put into place ...

I think similarly about the actions of the late Metropolitan Basil of Warsaw and all Poland. He also was very generous in accepting people from different backgrounds into the Orthodox Church (Eastern Catholic renegades, a Diocese of Milan Synod, a Parish in Germany, etc.).
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« Reply #335 on: June 11, 2011, 09:32:20 AM »

"I believe it is an act of charity to point out to the members of American Milan that many of their clergy have now found homes in the Russian Church Abroad."

I love the Russian Church Abroad. I have loved it since around 1980. I love everything about it.   With the exception of one thing ... does anyone who has never been a member of the Russian Church Abroad have any idea whatsoever of how many -well, lets be blunt-idiots (and a lot worse) we have accepted as clergy, without any kind of "checking things out" at all? And the resultant harm to the faithful, in order to ... be kind to clergy wanna-be's? I dont know. I have heard the rationalizations ("the Bishops believe those who come to them ... they can't imagine someone asking to become Orthodox clergy would have any other motivation ....") ... By saying this, I do not mean to imply that any of the people coming from the Milan Synod are necessarily "bad apples." In a way, I don't see how they could be... God knows it seems we have had way more than our quota .... Just hope there are some 'safeguards' that have been put into place ...


At the risk of 'tipping my hand' I have to tell you friend, that your hierarchs in ROCOR are not the only ones who have acted this way regarding bringing in priests from other churches or denominations or without full seminary training and many, many, many of the current problems roiling around in our various jurisdictions are starting with men who simply have not properly been trained and vetted prior to being either received or ordained and being foisted upon our congregations. 

In the defense of all of our Bishops, most Bishops are actually pious men of faith who instinctively believe in the goodness of man; that people beseeching them for help are being truthful and honest; that men who promise to continue with their education process after being received or ordained will actually keep those promises and that if given time things will get better for them after getting some hands on experience. 

Time and time again the Bishops have been let down yet the process seems to go on and on.  Having accepted a priest it is really hard for any bishop to admit error and pull the plug. Often they simply can't do so without a lengthy canonical process or by then the priest has a cultish following.
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« Reply #336 on: June 11, 2011, 12:10:33 PM »

Quote
I am officially requesting that you substantiate your claim that " including an unrepentant Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthodox Christians".  Please provide any and all proof that you have in regards to the SMP being responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthdox Christians.  You can do this either publically or via Private Message.  You have up to 72 hours (3 days).  - Serb1389. General Fora Moderator

While I realize this means that I am liable to discipline, I must apologize. Between work and other things to take care of related to the feast, I will not be able to complete the essay in 72 hours. I am sorry, I will need at least two more days. Unfortunately, I realize this means that I *can* be moderated, for not completing my response on time, and I hope any disciplinary action will last only until the completion of my response.
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« Reply #337 on: June 11, 2011, 07:00:24 PM »


...(to Fr Ambrose) That you'd like to turn his (i.e., Fr Symeon's) complaint into an official pronouncement is ridiculous.


Extremely ridiculous. Ludicrous even!

And Fr Ambrose, stop making erroneous attributions ("senior monastic" among others) in my regards. You come across as solicitious. We know who's famous for that!


Don't you know why he does that? He has identified me as the more level headed and tries to pit you and Fr Augustine against me. In his solicitous references he's trying to get me to join the other blind-hearted clergy to join the ill-fated ROCOR-MP



PapaSymeon, that "blind-hearted" cannot apply to the clergy who have left American Milan for the Russian Church Abroad?!!  With Fr Michael's reception into ROCA today that brings the number to 9 -and they are long-serving and devout Milan members.   Characterising so many of your priests as blind-hearted kind of insults the Milan bishop who chose them and ordained them.
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« Reply #338 on: June 11, 2011, 07:04:12 PM »

PapaSymeon, that "blind-hearted" cannot apply to the clergy who have left American Milan for the Russian Church Abroad?!!  With Fr Michael's reception into ROCA today that brings the number to 9 -and they are long-serving and devout Milan members.   Characterising so many of your priests as blind-hearted kind of insults the Milan bishop who chose them and ordained them.

Fr Michael is not "long serving". He's been non-functioning for at least 4 years.
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« Reply #339 on: June 11, 2011, 07:07:41 PM »

PapaSymeon, that "blind-hearted" cannot apply to the clergy who have left American Milan for the Russian Church Abroad?!!  With Fr Michael's reception into ROCA today that brings the number to 9 -and they are long-serving and devout Milan members.   Characterising so many of your priests as blind-hearted kind of insults the Milan bishop who chose them and ordained them.

Fr Michael is not "long serving". He's been non-functioning for at least 4 years.

Go through the names of those who have come into the Russian Church Abroad and see how many have been long-serving in Milan. You'll obviously be quite surprised.
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« Reply #340 on: June 11, 2011, 07:10:10 PM »

Go through the names of those who have come into the Russian Church Abroad and see how many have been long-serving in Milan. You'll obviously be quite surprised.

Like I don't know? The only thing that surprises me is your obsession. You're now looking for anyone associated with us and claiming they are ours. The Archdiocesan website listed him as inactive for years-- even before the new milansynodusa.org website.  Seriously, I don't have time for this.
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« Reply #341 on: June 11, 2011, 08:50:08 PM »

PapaSymeon, that "blind-hearted" cannot apply to the clergy who have left American Milan for the Russian Church Abroad?!!  With Fr Michael's reception into ROCA today that brings the number to 9 -and they are long-serving and devout Milan members.   Characterising so many of your priests as blind-hearted kind of insults the Milan bishop who chose them and ordained them.

Well, your work has had one good fruit: Fr Symeon has signed the clergy confession.

http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/06/clergy-confession.html

In a sense, I am glad your church is taking in people who were on the outs anyway. Fr George Grube supports the ordination of women, for example. And even better, at least a couple of those new folk were really unmoved on their support of ecumenism no matter what.

So you are welcome to them!
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« Reply #342 on: June 11, 2011, 09:52:44 PM »

Quote
I am officially requesting that you substantiate your claim that " including an unrepentant Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthodox Christians".  Please provide any and all proof that you have in regards to the SMP being responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthdox Christians.  You can do this either publically or via Private Message.  You have up to 72 hours (3 days).  - Serb1389. General Fora Moderator

While I realize this means that I am liable to discipline, I must apologize. Between work and other things to take care of related to the feast, I will not be able to complete the essay in 72 hours. I am sorry, I will need at least two more days. Unfortunately, I realize this means that I *can* be moderated, for not completing my response on time, and I hope any disciplinary action will last only until the completion of my response.

This is twice now you have been challenged to back up your ridiculous claims and have failed.  The first was when you claim there is video of the Pope and the EP communing together.  The second is your latest garbage  claim.    The Church has survived far greater enemies then you but you seem to relish in making a spectacle of yourself in front of this large readership.
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« Reply #343 on: June 11, 2011, 10:26:46 PM »

Quote
I am officially requesting that you substantiate your claim that " including an unrepentant Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthodox Christians".  Please provide any and all proof that you have in regards to the SMP being responsible for the deaths of thousands of Orthdox Christians.  You can do this either publically or via Private Message.  You have up to 72 hours (3 days).  - Serb1389. General Fora Moderator

While I realize this means that I am liable to discipline, I must apologize. Between work and other things to take care of related to the feast, I will not be able to complete the essay in 72 hours. I am sorry, I will need at least two more days. Unfortunately, I realize this means that I *can* be moderated, for not completing my response on time, and I hope any disciplinary action will last only until the completion of my response.

This is twice now you have been challenged to back up your ridiculous claims and have failed.  The first was when you claim there is video of the Pope and the EP communing together.  The second is your latest garbage  claim.    The Church has survived far greater enemies then you but you seem to relish in making a spectacle of yourself in front of this large readership.

I need the two days. And the Pope and EP communing together did happen.

In any case, this is more documentable, but the sheer volume of documentation makes it difficult.
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« Reply #344 on: June 11, 2011, 10:33:39 PM »

Pope and EP communing together? As in, taking Holy Communion together? That's not true, unless you mean the Orthodox Pope of Alexandria.
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« Reply #345 on: June 11, 2011, 10:38:00 PM »

Pope and EP communing together? As in, taking Holy Communion together? That's not true, unless you mean the Orthodox Pope of Alexandria.


I'm not going to debate this. MP responsible for deaths of thousands, that I will do.
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« Reply #346 on: June 11, 2011, 10:55:58 PM »

Pope and EP communing together? As in, taking Holy Communion together? That's not true, unless you mean the Orthodox Pope of Alexandria.

Yes, the charge that the Pope of Rome and the EP concelebrated the Divine Liturgy has been made many times on this forum, but I've not yet seen anyone prove it.
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« Reply #347 on: June 12, 2011, 06:23:39 AM »

In any case, this is more documentable, but the sheer volume of documentation makes it difficult.

"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." - Robert Wilensky, 1996
                                                                             
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« Reply #348 on: June 12, 2011, 08:45:44 AM »

In any case, this is more documentable, but the sheer volume of documentation makes it difficult.

"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." - Robert Wilensky, 1996
                                                                             

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« Reply #349 on: June 12, 2011, 12:55:26 PM »

Go through the names of those who have come into the Russian Church Abroad and see how many have been long-serving in Milan. You'll obviously be quite surprised.

Like I don't know? The only thing that surprises me is your obsession. You're now looking for anyone associated with us and claiming they are ours. The Archdiocesan website listed him as inactive for years-- even before the new milansynodusa.org website. 

Kind of like your obsession with making grandiose claims to having proof that the EP and the Pope "communed" together?  One does not need an essay to prove such a thing.  This video you claim to have seen will do.

Quote
Seriously, I don't have time for this.

Then maybe you should not make ridiculous claims about the Church w/o having ready backup.

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« Reply #350 on: June 12, 2011, 01:54:10 PM »

The absence of the video of the EP and Pope communing together is actually proof of the greater conspiracy- where would this video be found? The Internet.  What is Patriarch Bartholomew's title in the Media?  The Green Pope.  Now, who invented the Internet?  Al Gore, well known "Green" activist.  Obviously Patriarch Bartholomew has sold himself out to Al Gore's green policies in exchange for the automatic removal from the Internet of any video evidence of his communing with the Pope.

I've gotta go- I just saw a hydrogen-fueled black helicopter flying above, they're on to me....
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« Reply #351 on: June 12, 2011, 02:04:47 PM »

The absence of the video of the EP and Pope communing together is actually proof of the greater conspiracy- where would this video be found? The Internet.  What is Patriarch Bartholomew's title in the Media?  The Green Pope.  Now, who invented the Internet?  Al Gore, well known "Green" activist.  Obviously Patriarch Bartholomew has sold himself out to Al Gore's green policies in exchange for the automatic removal from the Internet of any video evidence of his communing with the Pope.

I've gotta go- I just saw a hydrogen-fueled black helicopter flying above, they're on to me....

I think you all are making the Pope/EP jokes because the MP can be more easily demonstrated
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« Reply #352 on: June 12, 2011, 02:59:16 PM »

The absence of the video of the EP and Pope communing together is actually proof of the greater conspiracy- where would this video be found? The Internet.  What is Patriarch Bartholomew's title in the Media?  The Green Pope.  Now, who invented the Internet?  Al Gore, well known "Green" activist.  Obviously Patriarch Bartholomew has sold himself out to Al Gore's green policies in exchange for the automatic removal from the Internet of any video evidence of his communing with the Pope.

I've gotta go- I just saw a hydrogen-fueled black helicopter flying above, they're on to me....
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« Reply #353 on: June 12, 2011, 05:40:12 PM »

Well, your work has had one good fruit: Fr Symeon has signed the clergy confession.

http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/2011/06/clergy-confession.html


After messages 197 and 201 I am not surprised.  Poor man!
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« Reply #354 on: June 12, 2011, 09:50:10 PM »

The absence of the video of the EP and Pope communing together is actually proof of the greater conspiracy- where would this video be found? The Internet.  What is Patriarch Bartholomew's title in the Media?  The Green Pope.  Now, who invented the Internet?  Al Gore, well known "Green" activist.  Obviously Patriarch Bartholomew has sold himself out to Al Gore's green policies in exchange for the automatic removal from the Internet of any video evidence of his communing with the Pope.

I've gotta go- I just saw a hydrogen-fueled black helicopter flying above, they're on to me....

I think you all are making the Pope/EP jokes because the MP can be more easily demonstrated

More easily proved?  You have been challenged to do so and failed at this claim as well.   I believe a large part of the reason so many priests are leaving your new organization are ignorant claims such as the ones you make here and other lists.
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« Reply #355 on: June 12, 2011, 09:51:57 PM »

More easily proved?  You have been challenged to do so and failed at this claim as well.   I believe a large part of the reason so many priests are leaving your new organization are ignorant claims such as the ones you make here and other lists.

I asked for time because of the feast and my job. I've been working on it today. Thanks.
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« Reply #356 on: June 12, 2011, 10:56:43 PM »

I have placed a preliminary response here.
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« Reply #357 on: June 13, 2011, 03:40:26 AM »

The Patriarch of Constantinople has conclebrated the Liturgy-in Rome-with the Pope-on several occasions ... I think every year for the past several ... by several, I mean more than five ....
There are various Canons forbidding "prayer with the hetrodox."
First the excuse was, "well, since the Orthodox clergy are not vested, it's OK."
Then when the Orthodox clergy were vested, it was "well, that means not simply 'prayer,' but an Orthodox liturgical service, and since we aren't doing that, it's OK."
When Patriarch Bartholomew started visiting Rome, and conclebrating the Liturgy with the Pope, he would say something like "but, we aren't yet worthy," or "blessed," to "partake of the common cup." So, the liturgy would be concelebrated to some technical point where it could be said "we did not partake of the common cup," and that "makes it OK."
So, they concelebrate to a certain point, the Patriarch withdraws until another point, then they finish together. Technically, I suppose, they did not "fully concelebrate a liturgy," according to the Patriarch at least ... but, since this is another of the continuing excuses why these violations of the Canons against prayer with the heterodox are "not really violations," I cannot understand why anyone who goes along with this blatant shinola is even upset that there are suggestions it has gone further .... because when it does go further-and it will-you will obviously buy whatever excuse is given then, or the fait accompli of some bizarre unia that has been in process inch by inch since the 'lifting of the anathemas' more than 45 years ago. Or, do we still believe they are merely 'witnessing Orthodoxy?' Are you kidding?
Recently, Fr Vsevolod Chaplin of the MP wrote some panegyric to Metropolitan Nikodim (Rotov). How good ole Metropolitan Nikodim said union with the Catholics could only be approached on Patristic principles ... the link to this -what can you call it? - lets just leave it at 'panegyric'-was on the blog of some lady that goes by 'varvara;' 'varvara' then commented in her inimitable fashion that she thought Fr Vsevolod was the cat's meow, that she was glad K-somethin-G (intials of the Patriarch of Moscow-I forget the initial of his patronymic) didn't put Fr Vsevolod under 'the boy blunder,' meaning Met Hilarion (Alfeev) of Volokolamsk, who digs the papists too much, and much appreciated the "principles" of Nikodim on 'union.'
Nikodim (Rotov) was the architect of the MP's decision to give communion to Roman Catholics in 1969. Nikodim himslef gave communion to Roman Catholics several times in the Vatican at the Russicum ... the Alma Mater of Patriarch Bartholomew ... a college created for the purpose of trainng clergy to convince Orthodox Christians to join the Unia. Nikodim (Rotov) was Hiarion (Alfeev) overdosed on steroids ... he just may have said something about 'patristic principles' for some union or other, but his actions spoke with the volume on 10, while those words were pronounced with the volume on 1 ... if you catch my drift.
Patriarch Kirill is a well known protege of Nikodim ... one of the so-called 'Nikodimtsy.'
We keep hearing denials of any ecumenical wrongdoing by Constantinople ...we keep hearing that the Moscow Patriarchate-which is lionizing probably the worst of the ecumenists in their history by the officially sanctioned praise of their official spokesman, Fr Vsevolod (who also recently offered to 'pray' over [serve a funeral] Lenin's body, which was OK since Lenin was 'never excommunicated' ...), which is telling us in the pronouncements of Met Hilarion (Alfeev) we are learning that we 'are the same as the Catholics,' 'we recognize the mysteries of the Catholics,' 'the Catholics and the Orthodox are the two wings of Christianity ...," etc etc etc,-yes, we keep hearing that the Moscow Patriarchate is 'only talking to people. How can it be wrong to talk to people?' Yet, all this seems to amount to a lot more than talk! And, 'prayer with the heterodox' still goes on ...
As usual, I go on too long-but one more observation. In the last six months, there was, on the ROCOR Synod website, an interview with Archbishop Mark (Arndt) of Berlin & Germany from 2004. He mentioned an interview of recent vintage then, in which then Metropolitan Kirill (Gundayev, now Patirarch) stated that, during the course of Soviet history, the relations between the Soviet government and the Moscow Patriarchate had "developed splendidly."
Now- I ask - anyone, and principally ROCORthodox-how can we listen to and learn of praises of Met Nikodim (Rotov), who died in the arms of and was given "absolution" by Pope John Paul I, the continuing antics of Met Hilarion (Alfeev), and that the current Patriarch of Moscow feels that the Church's relations with the communists 'developed splendidly,' and just keep on smilin' that ole 'love' smile, and say 'things are swell?' I totally realize that "sergianism" is a non-word from the lexicon of the distant past, and I totally realize that the official position is that all the ecumenical garbazh is 'not subject for criticism,' but ... how much can we take? Is this what we signed on for? Apparently some form of unia with the Pope aint that bad after all ... we're halfway already ... hammer in these concepts for a few more years, and they will have us askin' them to speed things along, right? Or, is this all in the context of geopolitics, which makes it OK?? Or what?
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« Reply #358 on: June 13, 2011, 03:47:52 AM »

Wow. I guess I just put the black helicopters on my trail ... wait! One's got a red star on the tail!
a little humor ... yeh, i know, very little ... but if i cant laughevery now an then, i would jus be cruin all da time ....
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« Reply #359 on: June 13, 2011, 04:53:14 AM »

The Patriarch of Constantinople has conclebrated the Liturgy-in Rome-with the Pope-on several occasions ...
No he hasn't.
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