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Author Topic: Merged discussion of all things Milan Synod  (Read 26906 times) Average Rating: 0
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Suaiden
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« Reply #270 on: June 04, 2011, 11:34:36 PM »

I find the term offensive.

"World Orthodoxy" was coined by dissidents.  They coined it to be in line with "New World Order" and "One World Government" and those types of expression.  It was intended to be negative and disparaging  and to convey "fake" and "false" and "dangerous" and "hated by God."  It also says "You are not baptized, you have no Holy Communion, your bishops are fakes, they are laymen, same for your priests, your Sacraments/Mysteries are graceless rituals." 

Nobody in the Churches of the ancient Patriarchates should use it. 

World Orthodoxy!
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« Reply #271 on: June 04, 2011, 11:45:29 PM »

I find the term offensive.

"World Orthodoxy" was coined by dissidents.  They coined it to be in line with "New World Order" and "One World Government" and those types of expression.  It was intended to be negative and disparaging  and to convey "fake" and "false" and "dangerous" and "hated by God."  It also says "You are not baptized, you have no Holy Communion, your bishops are fakes, they are laymen, same for your priests, your Sacraments/Mysteries are graceless rituals." 

Nobody in the Churches of the ancient Patriarchates should use it. 

World Orthodoxy!
I find the term offensive.

"World Orthodoxy" was coined by dissidents.  They coined it to be in line with "New World Order" and "One World Government" and those types of expression.  It was intended to be negative and disparaging  and to convey "fake" and "false" and "dangerous" and "hated by God."  It also says "You are not baptized, you have no Holy Communion, your bishops are fakes, they are laymen, same for your priests, your Sacraments/Mysteries are graceless rituals." 

Nobody in the Churches of the ancient Patriarchates should use it. 

World Orthodoxy!

It's as offensive as the terms forbidden here for non-Chalcedonians, the term for Greek Catholics, and the term for negroes.
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« Reply #272 on: June 04, 2011, 11:52:55 PM »

Irish Hermit,

I think it would be best for me to leave this discussion as I honestly don't foresee any good coming from this discussion, either from your point-of-view or mine.
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« Reply #273 on: June 04, 2011, 11:55:47 PM »

I find the term offensive.

"World Orthodoxy" was coined by dissidents.  They coined it to be in line with "New World Order" and "One World Government" and those types of expression.  It was intended to be negative and disparaging  and to convey "fake" and "false" and "dangerous" and "hated by God."  It also says "You are not baptized, you have no Holy Communion, your bishops are fakes, they are laymen, same for your priests, your Sacraments/Mysteries are graceless rituals." 

Nobody in the Churches of the ancient Patriarchates should use it. 

World Orthodoxy!

 Wink go Fr Joseph!
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« Reply #274 on: June 04, 2011, 11:59:45 PM »

Irish Hermit,

I think it would be best for me to leave this discussion as I honestly don't foresee any good coming from this discussion, either from your point-of-view or mine.

This is so very true regarding ANY conversation with "The Irish Hermit" who has no real ministry. So sad!
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« Reply #275 on: June 05, 2011, 12:45:53 AM »

This is so very true regarding ANY conversation with "The Irish Hermit" who has no real ministry. So sad!
It's no secret that I'm not particularly fond of Irish Hermit, but even I find this a low blow.
I'm not sure how you can say that anyone, whether clergy or not, "has no real ministry".
If you're trying to gain credibility for yourself and Suiaden- you have failed sir.
Shouldn't you be at Vigil anyway?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 12:46:58 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #276 on: June 05, 2011, 12:47:38 AM »

If you're trying to gain credibility for yourself and Suiaden- you have failed sir.

what did I have to do with this?
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« Reply #277 on: June 05, 2011, 12:50:17 AM »

If you're trying to gain credibility for yourself and Suiaden- you have failed sir.

what did I have to do with this?
I was referring to "PapaSymeon's" endorsement of you. See reply 148.
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« Reply #278 on: June 05, 2011, 12:52:56 AM »

This is so very true regarding ANY conversation with "The Irish Hermit" who has no real ministry. So sad!
It's no secret that I'm not particularly fond of Irish Hermit, but even I find this a low blow.
I'm not sure how you can say that anyone, whether clergy or not, "has no real ministry".
If you're trying to gain credibility for yourself and Suiaden- you have failed sir.
Shouldn't you be at Vigil anyway?

I have no need to prove anything to anyone nor to gain credibility from anyone.

 
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« Reply #279 on: June 05, 2011, 12:54:18 AM »

I was referring to "PapaSymeon's" endorsement of you. See reply 148.

what did I have to do with this?

I shouldn't have written anything. This never would have happened.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 12:56:10 AM by Suaiden » Logged

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« Reply #280 on: June 05, 2011, 12:59:50 AM »

This is so very true regarding ANY conversation with "The Irish Hermit" who has no real ministry. So sad!
It's no secret that I'm not particularly fond of Irish Hermit, but even I find this a low blow.
I'm not sure how you can say that anyone, whether clergy or not, "has no real ministry".
If you're trying to gain credibility for yourself and Suiaden- you have failed sir.
Shouldn't you be at Vigil anyway?

I have no need to prove anything to anyone nor to gain credibility from anyone.

Good for you.
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« Reply #281 on: June 05, 2011, 01:00:39 AM »

I shouldn't have written anything. This never would have happened.
I often find myself thinking that too! Smiley
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« Reply #282 on: June 05, 2011, 02:21:25 AM »

This is so very true regarding ANY conversation with "The Irish Hermit" who has no real ministry. So sad!
It's no secret that I'm not particularly fond of Irish Hermit, but even I find this a low blow.

I've grown fonder of you.   laugh  We got off on a very bad start, with the correspondence about the EP and the Pope.  I had a rough introduction to the Forum.   Smiley
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« Reply #283 on: June 05, 2011, 02:22:41 AM »

Irish Hermit,

I think it would be best for me to leave this discussion as I honestly don't foresee any good coming from this discussion, either from your point-of-view or mine.

This is so very true regarding ANY conversation with "The Irish Hermit" who has no real ministry. So sad!

Parish priest for three Russian parishes since 1980.

Based at major parish  in Wellington where I live , two others in Auckland and Christchurch.

Wellington parish - Vespers every evening and Liturgy 3 times a week for 20 years..   

Central city parish so a lot of interaction with parishioners.

Immigration sponsor for 400 Russian families, from 1992 onwards

Refugee sponsor for 250 Russian and Ukrainian ship jumpers

Nearly all of these spent their first months in New Zealand living with me in one or other of the two houses on each side of the church.  It involves writing Refugee Applications and quite a number of interviews at Immigration.  Eventually finding them accommodation, employment or the unemployment benefit from the Government, schools for their children, doctors,  furniture, etc.


Now 65 and semi-retired for the last 5 years because of heart problems.  Supposed to kill me within about another 2 years.  We'll see!

Have cut back greatly on all the above work.

No, Father, I do not begrudge my time on the Internet since as a result of it 32 souls have been added to the holy Orthodox Church, many of these were through CAF.  I am actually grateful to Almighty God that despite my illness which sometimes keeps me housebound I have some work to do on the Net for His glory and the salvation of souls.

Lots of time for my Prayer Rule, and on the Internet messing around because of the health.  As well as the 32 people received there are about twenty people currently enquiring, some are contacts from my Celtic Christianity groups.  Lots of correspondence.     And should mention that I am often doing immigration work with the computer when I am writing on the e-mail groups.

And I should mention with great pride that four of the converts whom I have baptized have become monks and nuns although one has left after being a monk for 14 years.

Confessional ministry - 10 regular penitents visiting fortnightly for Confession (in front of my home icons). 

Averaging a Baptism a month, and usually a wedding and a funeral about every 2 months.

Cannot serve Liturgy alone because of health, so I serve twice a month with another priest, Russian or Serbian.

It is a matter of regret that my active work is curtailed.  My labours for Christ and His people were pretty full on when I was healthy, and even now I do the best I can.

Oh, and did I mention the 7 American Milan priests who have come into the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad?  - yes, I'm sure my prayers had a part in that...   Cheesy



Oh great. Now we have a p---ing competition.


This is so very true regarding ANY conversation with "The Irish Hermit" who has no real ministry. So sad!
It's no secret that I'm not particularly fond of Irish Hermit, but even I find this a low blow.

I've grown fonder of you.   laugh  We got off on a very bad start, with the correspondence about the EP and the Pope.  I had a rough introduction to the Forum.   Smiley
I hate you slightly less Smiley
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 02:24:00 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #284 on: June 05, 2011, 02:30:46 AM »

Irish Hermit,

I think it would be best for me to leave this discussion as I honestly don't foresee any good coming from this discussion, either from your point-of-view or mine.

Faced with an official statemnt from your Primate that we are representatives of Satan,  it is kinda hard to have a conversation !!   laugh
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« Reply #285 on: June 05, 2011, 02:38:34 AM »


Oh great. Now we have a p---ing competition.


Just following the example of Saint Paul.. But it I'd be happy if you removed the copy of my message in your own message
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« Reply #286 on: June 05, 2011, 08:50:29 AM »

WARNING: This post is going to offend some of you.

For weeks, Fr. Ambrose has posted references to the head of the American Metropolia stating that the Moscow Patriarchate in some way is a 'representative of Satan.' I have  not seen a definitive response from the advocates of this group.

Frankly, I will not dignify followers of such a leader or group with the respect of acknowledging them by referring to them in any way as being 'Orthodox', for by their own actions and conscious choice, they have clearly decided to be separate from canonical Orthodoxy of the ancient Patriarchates and our related autocephalous and autonomous Orthodox Churches. The lack of charity in their hearts made apparent by the arrogance in their own writings here differentiates them from many here who are part of Orthodox jurisdictions currently outside of communion with the majority of us but who do not spread calumny and falsehoods.

As an American, I will respect their choices and defend their right to make them, but I do not have to dignify them by referring to them as being in some way part of Orthodox Christianity.

As to the use of the term 'World Orthodoxy', I agree with Father Ambrose in that it is as derogatory a pejorative as the banned terms that he referenced and I would join with him in asking that its use not be permitted.

My church, my bishops and my priests, including my late father and brother, are under the jurisdiction of a Diocese under the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch and thereby in full communion with our brothers and sisters of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Patriarch of Moscow. If anyone proclaims that the Moscow Patriarchate is somehow satanic, then by extension they must make the same claim of any church, bishop or priest in communion with her. Sorry, but I must take this personally and I will not let it pass without a response.

Such a claim might be expected from a source such as an extreme Protestant evangelical attempting 'missionary' work among our people, but it can not be tolerated from someone purporting to be a righteous Orthodox Christian!

This is a grave claim, a most grievous insult and an historically typical approach from the playbook of any committed schismatics whose intentions are to cause to further division within God's Church and sow discord and anger among her children.

The 'ad hominem' attack made upon Fr. Ambrose was uncalled for, un-Christian and was a malicious falsehood.

I don't 'hate' anyone, particularly those to whom I refer. However, it is our Christian responsibility to speak out and defend the truth when it is under attack and the claim of our being representatives of Satan merits a strong and vigorous response. Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #287 on: June 05, 2011, 09:28:19 AM »

Podkaraptska, with all respect I disagree. The reason that many members of the Milan Synod started to posting here and presenting their opinion about the World Orthodoxy (I like this term) is because Irish Hermit keeps starting here many thread about their Church, schisms within them and the possibility of merging them into the Russian Orthodox Church. I have no idea why is he doing that because he seems to be the only one poster (apart from the MS members) to be interested in that. I'm not surprised that they started to posting here more often to defend (maybe not always properly and politely) their Church.


Conclusion: If Irish Hermit wouldn't had started a bunch of thread about the Milan Synod we wouldn't have members of them insulting our Church.
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« Reply #288 on: June 05, 2011, 10:55:31 AM »

Podkaraptska, with all respect I disagree. The reason that many members of the Milan Synod started to posting here and presenting their opinion about the World Orthodoxy (I like this term) is because Irish Hermit keeps starting here many thread about their Church, schisms within them and the possibility of merging them into the Russian Orthodox Church. I have no idea why is he doing that because he seems to be the only one poster (apart from the MS members) to be interested in that. I'm not surprised that they started to posting here more often to defend (maybe not always properly and politely) their Church.


Conclusion: If Irish Hermit wouldn't had started a bunch of thread about the Milan Synod we wouldn't have members of them insulting our Church.

Poor Podkaraptska; it is regretful that you may have taken what's been said in these threads personally. The reason you find no defense of our Metropolitan's words as characterized by The Irish Hermit (TIH) of New Zealand is simple. Our Metropolitan never said it! Others might have stated it but Metropolitan John never did. He did write a private e-mail to TIH and referred to Rome as the satanic empire and criticized the MP's ecumenical involvement with Rome. An e-mail, however, TIH denies ever receiving. In that denial he calls my Metropolitan a liar?  TIH is everywhere slaming our Metropolia especially now that we are no longer with the Milan Synod who appears to have MP leanings having abandoned their original TOC purpose among Western Europeans.

So what would you have us do? Defend ourselves everywhere on the internet against a sole hieromonk who is obsessed with our elimination? No, the best action is no action while he banters on in his solo crusade against our humble Metropolia.  When it comes to others asking rational questions about us we should answer with love and respect. I trust his authorities will catch up to him eventually.

Lastly Podkaraptska, if a church is not part of the Body of Christ because of their passionate leadership in heresy are they not part of satan's congregation? 
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« Reply #289 on: June 05, 2011, 11:13:06 AM »

your blessing Papa Symeon,

Some clarification please...  I am confused as to actual ecclesiology of your synod, at times it appears as that of Cyprianites, at times Matthewite/current Florinite, forgive the terms, I only use them to distinguish particulars...
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« Reply #290 on: June 05, 2011, 11:28:19 AM »

Podkaraptska, with all respect I disagree. The reason that many members of the Milan Synod started to posting here and presenting their opinion about the World Orthodoxy (I like this term) is because Irish Hermit keeps starting here many thread about their Church, schisms within them and the possibility of merging them into the Russian Orthodox Church. I have no idea why is he doing that because he seems to be the only one poster (apart from the MS members) to be interested in that. I'm not surprised that they started to posting here more often to defend (maybe not always properly and politely) their Church.


Conclusion: If Irish Hermit wouldn't had started a bunch of thread about the Milan Synod we wouldn't have members of them insulting our Church.

Dear Michal,

Irish Hermit has started 4 threads about the Synod of Milan


1. Milan Synod Desires Union with Moscow
2. Milan Synod - Primate's Encyclical
3. ROCOR receives another Priest from former Milan Synod USA
4. Milan says Goodbye to its American sector


There are 7 more Milan threads started by other members:

1. The Synod of Milan........................................................................Jennifer
2. Milan Synod's Mess.........................................................................Robb
3. Milan Synod Removes American Links From Official Sites........................Suaiden
4. Milan Synod and American Metropolia publicly break communion..............Suaiden
5. Synod of Milan??............................................................................Ben
6. Diptychs, Diptychs, who is listed in the Diptychs?................................ozgeorge
7. What warrants believers creating there own Jurisdiction?......................prodromas

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« Reply #291 on: June 05, 2011, 11:46:08 AM »

The reason you find no defense of our Metropolitan's words as characterized by The Irish Hermit (TIH) of New Zealand is simple. Our Metropolitan never said it!

PapaSymeon,  English is my native tongue.  I read it reasonably well.  There are two separate statements from your Primate clearly stating that the Patriarch and the clergy are representatives of Satan.

Your Primate's words are recorded here:

1.  The news blog run by the American Milan deacon Joseph Suaiden.

http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2011/04/american-and-european-metropolias-no.html#more

2.  The official website of American Milan

http://www.milansynodusa.org/2011/03/text-of-confession-of-faith-to-be.html#more

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« Reply #292 on: June 05, 2011, 03:16:53 PM »

I said what I posted because there was an attack on the ministry of Fr. Ambrose that appeared to be out of line. I was brought up to respect the clergy, even those with whom we held disagreements.

We can be, and have been with others, in a state of schism, without resorting to name calling and 'ad hominen' attacks. Certainly there are other priests here who are in schism with my hierarchs, but we do not stoop to the the levels that some who post on the Milan threads seem to reach. Indeed, for example, I have the greatest respect for Fr. Anastasios, with whom he and I disagree about many important Orthodox issues, but neither he nor I would question each other's integrity or motives.

Indeed, for most of Fr. Ambrose's ministry within ROCOR, he would have been regarded by my hierarchs, and hence by me and my pastor, as being part of a church in schism. (I remember how much it pained my father when the late Metropolitan Laurus' aunt and uncle died over the years in our ACROD parish and he could not participate in the memorial services in the church with his family.) However, the Lord has worked to heal that schism, which was as bitter and full of invective as any schism of the 20th century. Let us pray that we do recognize that there is room for serious disagreement among ourselves without the need for communal separation and that our differences can be bridged with love and respect.

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« Reply #293 on: June 06, 2011, 02:13:51 AM »

I find it more than bold, and also pretty embarrassing- that a group who was once in communion with the Ukrainian Church under "Patriarch" Filaret (Denisenko), the only Bishop ever to be deposed by the Moscow Patriarchate due to his cooperation and collaboration with the Soviet government and their security organs, can now, undoubtedly with a straight face, call the Moscow Patriarchate an "abomination," and everyone in legitimate Orthodox Churches who do not share the viewpoint of their tiny group, "representatives of Satan."

Which can only raise a completely justifiable question: When the Milan Synod was in communion with Filaret (Denisenko), and/or when the Milan Synod sought ties with the Moscow Patriarchate - were the clergy and laity of the Milan Synod also "knowing or unknowing representatives of Satan?"

Have all of the "hierarchs" of the Milan Synod who apparently recognized some sort of "legitimacy problem" (Archbishop Auxentios notwithstanding ...) and sought to solve it by these rather unconventional means-for those of the "True Orthodox" perusasion-now departed from the fold?

When one does not wish such questions as these to be posed, one would do well to sufficiently research the history, proclivities, actions, etc., of organizations that one joins. Это долгий путь из Суздаля ...
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« Reply #294 on: June 06, 2011, 02:40:16 AM »


......a sole hieromonk who is obsessed with our elimination?


There are two little autogenic Churches for which I have a special affection - the Celtic Orthodox Church (Metropolitan Mael, Brittany headquarters) and the Synod of Milan.   I am not obsessed with your elimination.  I *am* obsessed with your entry into the fulness of the Orthodox Church and pray for that very often.

I would say that I am not the "sole" person interested in the Milan Synod.  My Metropolitan has received 7 Milan priests into the Russian Church Abroad and there are two more to come.   His willingness to do this speaks of 1) his interest in the Milan Synod and 2) his confidence that Milan priests are trustworthy and able to be received as continuing priests (by cheirothesia and not by ordination.)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 02:41:27 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #295 on: June 06, 2011, 10:13:24 AM »


Poor Podkaraptska; it is regretful that you may have taken what's been said in these threads personally. The reason you find no defense of our Metropolitan's words as characterized by The Irish Hermit (TIH) of New Zealand is simple. Our Metropolitan never said it! Others might have stated it but Metropolitan John never did.

You may be technically correct in saying that Metropolitan John never actually said this: "...the American Sister Church published statements which condemned the Moscow Patriarchate as an abomination, and declared that the Patriarchs and the innovating clergy and laity are representatives of Satan (either knowingly or unknowingly), and further warned the Patriarchs and others that if the Patriarchs do indeed retain the holy Mysteries they commit the greatest of blasphemies." This statement has merely appeared on official "Metropolia" documents, such as the new oath of allegiance signed by the "Metropolia' priests.

Your denial of Metropolitan John's culpability actually weakens your case because I do not believe that your jurisdiction would have ever drafted and published such language without the active involvement of the Metropolitan. So, can we consider adding mendacity to schism as terms that may be applicable to y'all? Actually, heeding Podkarpatska's words may be the best thing for y'all. Listening to father Ambrose, instead to the siren songs of your leaders may be beneficial as well.
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« Reply #296 on: June 06, 2011, 12:16:14 PM »


Poor Podkaraptska; it is regretful that you may have taken what's been said in these threads personally. The reason you find no defense of our Metropolitan's words as characterized by The Irish Hermit (TIH) of New Zealand is simple. Our Metropolitan never said it! Others might have stated it but Metropolitan John never did.

You may be technically correct in saying that Metropolitan John never actually said this: "...the American Sister Church published statements which condemned the Moscow Patriarchate as an abomination, and declared that the Patriarchs and the innovating clergy and laity are representatives of Satan (either knowingly or unknowingly), and further warned the Patriarchs and others that if the Patriarchs do indeed retain the holy Mysteries they commit the greatest of blasphemies." This statement has merely appeared on official "Metropolia" documents, such as the new oath of allegiance signed by the "Metropolia' priests.

Your denial of Metropolitan John's culpability actually weakens your case because I do not believe that your jurisdiction would have ever drafted and published such language without the active involvement of the Metropolitan. So, can we consider adding mendacity to schism as terms that may be applicable to y'all? Actually, heeding Podkarpatska's words may be the best thing for y'all. Listening to father Ambrose, instead to the siren songs of your leaders may be beneficial as well.

You have not quoted any official document of our Metropolia. No matter what my response or the official response to any of the accusations placed in this thread you all from World Orthodoxy will not like it anyway because of World Orthodoxy's depth of involvement with various heretical practices of ecumenism, following an unlawful calendar, neo-papalism and neo-sergiism (sp?). It is you who should stop blindly following your ill-fated leaders. I have reviewed our official Clergy Confession and that of our Greek Sister Church; neither state what TIH claims it says.
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« Reply #297 on: June 06, 2011, 12:37:18 PM »

/\   
"As a result of this statement, the American Sister Church published statements
which condemned the Moscow Patriarchate as an abomination, and declared that the
Patriarchs and the innovating clergy and laity are representatives of Satan
(either knowingly or unknowingly)
, and further warned the Patriarchs and others
that if the Patriarchs do indeed retain the holy Mysteries they commit the
greatest of blasphemies."

http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2011/04/american-and-european-metropolias-no.html#\more

And from the Clergy Confession, for which Metropolitan John LoBue originally demanded signatures
from all clergy but had to cancel this directive when it became clear that most of his clergy refused
to sign:


d) For, if the Patriarchs and Hierarchs, who commit themselves to the teachings of these heresies, after repeated warnings, protests, groanings, petitions, tears, and earnest beggings, are indeed making the Bloodless Sacrifice of Jesus Christ in the Holy Liturgy (oh, what a fearful thought!), thus are indeed receiving the Immaculate Mysteries of the Most Holy Body and Precious Blood of Our Lord God Jesus Christ, then they do so to their own eternal damnation to the fires of hell, as the Blessed and Holy Apostle explains;

(e) Therefore, if they are under this deadly condemnation by the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ, due to their own willful wickedness (becoming inheritors to the accusation of St. Stephen the Protomartyr, “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye”..) , how much more must we pray continually for their conversion to Jesus Christ; yet, we must also refrain from contaminating ourselves with such darkness and wickedness. For what concord hath Light with darkness, Christ with Satan (for it is Satan that they [the innovating clergy and laymen] knowingly or unknowingly represent, to great sadness)

http://metropoliafansite.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-clergy-confession-approved.html

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« Reply #298 on: June 06, 2011, 02:14:22 PM »

^^^^
What Father Ambrose cited. It looks like you should reread your own sources.
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« Reply #299 on: June 06, 2011, 04:25:03 PM »

^^^^
What Father Ambrose cited. It looks like you should reread your own sources.

Appears to be manipulative quotations having omitted previous parts of that section as such:

"(4) (a) As no judgment by universal consent, as of yet, of the Orthodox has been rendered concerning whether the Mysteries of the World Orthodox Patriarchates are True Mysteries, no position can be forced outside of the rulings of local Synods and their requirements;

(b) As such no rash accusations of heresy should be leveled against those who take the positive position that the World Orthodox still retain the consecrating Grace of the Holy Mysteries;

(c) However, as the World Orthodox have fallen repeatedly for several generations under anathemas, mass canonical violations, and most importantly of all, a deficiency in the Faith, and have not sought to correct these problems after decades of stern warnings by their own most celebrated luminaries, communion in the Mysteries, or prayer, and any other expressions of Catholic Unity is impossible."

Read the entire Confession in its full context: http://www.milansynodusa.org/2011/03/text-of-confession-of-faith-to-be.html#more

Also TIH likes to quote from unofficial sources like the urls he cited.
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« Reply #300 on: June 06, 2011, 04:50:52 PM »



"(4) (a) As no judgment by universal consent, as of yet, of the Orthodox has been rendered concerning whether the Mysteries of the World Orthodox Patriarchates are True Mysteries, no position can be forced outside of the rulings of local Synods and their requirements;

(b) As such no rash accusations of heresy should be leveled against those who take the positive position that the World Orthodox still retain the consecrating Grace of the Holy Mysteries;

(c) However, as the World Orthodox have fallen repeatedly for several generations under anathemas, mass canonical violations, and most importantly of all, a deficiency in the Faith, and have not sought to correct these problems after decades of stern warnings by their own most celebrated luminaries, communion in the Mysteries, or prayer, and any other expressions of Catholic Unity is impossible.

d) For, if the Patriarchs and Hierarchs, who commit themselves to the teachings of these heresies, after repeated warnings, protests, groanings, petitions, tears, and earnest beggings, are indeed making the Bloodless Sacrifice of Jesus Christ in the Holy Liturgy (oh, what a fearful thought!), thus are indeed receiving the Immaculate Mysteries of the Most Holy Body and Precious Blood of Our Lord God Jesus Christ, then they do so to their own eternal damnation to the fires of hell, as the Blessed and Holy Apostle explains;

(e) Therefore, if they are under this deadly condemnation by the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ, due to their own willful wickedness (becoming inheritors to the accusation of St. Stephen the Protomartyr, “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye”..) , how much more must we pray continually for their conversion to Jesus Christ; yet, we must also refrain from contaminating ourselves with such darkness and wickedness. For what concord hath Light with darkness, Christ with Satan (for it is Satan that they [the innovating clergy and laymen] knowingly or unknowingly represent, to great sadness)"

Where is the MP or Fr Ambrose directly mentioned above?

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« Reply #301 on: June 06, 2011, 05:15:18 PM »


Appears to be manipulative quotations having omitted previous parts of that section as such:


No manipulation, PapaSymeon.  Why doesn't your Primate remove the references to representatives of Satan from the Clergy Confession?   Did it drop in there by mistake, while he was half asleep?   Was it inserted by some naughty deacon? 

Quote


Also TIH likes to quote from unofficial sources like the urls he cited.

 Ad hominem!

Your deacon Joseph Suaiden writes that the Confession on the site I quoted is quite official...  Since he seems to act as MAB's information officer he ought to be trustworthy.

"This statement has been approved for inclusion in the official website of the
Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America, and the British Isles
(currently website at milansynodusa.org) and will be included when the revised
website opens shortly.

"Till then, it is on the Milan Fan Site link below--

http://milanfansite.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-clergy-confession-approved.html

"Saturday, March 5, 2011
"New Clergy Confession Approved"

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« Reply #302 on: June 06, 2011, 07:04:47 PM »

^^^^
What Father Ambrose cited. It looks like you should reread your own sources.

Appears to be manipulative quotations having omitted previous parts of that section as such:

"(4) (a) As no judgment by universal consent, as of yet, of the Orthodox has been rendered concerning whether the Mysteries of the World Orthodox Patriarchates are True Mysteries, no position can be forced outside of the rulings of local Synods and their requirements;

(b) As such no rash accusations of heresy should be leveled against those who take the positive position that the World Orthodox still retain the consecrating Grace of the Holy Mysteries;

(c) However, as the World Orthodox have fallen repeatedly for several generations under anathemas, mass canonical violations, and most importantly of all, a deficiency in the Faith, and have not sought to correct these problems after decades of stern warnings by their own most celebrated luminaries, communion in the Mysteries, or prayer, and any other expressions of Catholic Unity is impossible."

Read the entire Confession in its full context: http://www.milansynodusa.org/2011/03/text-of-confession-of-faith-to-be.html#more

Also TIH likes to quote from unofficial sources like the urls he cited.

I don't get it: On the one hand, this Confession reads out all Orthodox Churches in communion with the EP as being in error, specifically says that all of the heads of all jurisdictions are receiving the Holy Mysteries to their condemnation, and that their priests, knowingly or unknowingly, represent Satan. On the other hand the Confession has some weasel words about not formally accusing all Orthodox jurisdictions of heresy. Why bother, when they are tools of Satan and are condemned anyway? THe actula effect is the same. There is no reading out of context; instead, there is intemperate, schismatic writing.
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« Reply #303 on: June 07, 2011, 09:14:26 AM »

^^^^
What Father Ambrose cited. It looks like you should reread your own sources.

Appears to be manipulative quotations having omitted previous parts of that section as such:

"(4) (a) As no judgment by universal consent, as of yet, of the Orthodox has been rendered concerning whether the Mysteries of the World Orthodox Patriarchates are True Mysteries, no position can be forced outside of the rulings of local Synods and their requirements;

(b) As such no rash accusations of heresy should be leveled against those who take the positive position that the World Orthodox still retain the consecrating Grace of the Holy Mysteries;

(c) However, as the World Orthodox have fallen repeatedly for several generations under anathemas, mass canonical violations, and most importantly of all, a deficiency in the Faith, and have not sought to correct these problems after decades of stern warnings by their own most celebrated luminaries, communion in the Mysteries, or prayer, and any other expressions of Catholic Unity is impossible."

Read the entire Confession in its full context: http://www.milansynodusa.org/2011/03/text-of-confession-of-faith-to-be.html#more

Also TIH likes to quote from unofficial sources like the urls he cited.

I don't get it: On the one hand, this Confession reads out all Orthodox Churches in communion with the EP as being in error, specifically says that all of the heads of all jurisdictions are receiving the Holy Mysteries to their condemnation, and that their priests, knowingly or unknowingly, represent Satan. On the other hand the Confession has some weasel words about not formally accusing all Orthodox jurisdictions of heresy. Why bother, when they are tools of Satan and are condemned anyway? THe actula effect is the same. There is no reading out of context; instead, there is intemperate, schismatic writing.

Agreed, there is no way to construct the intent of the authors in any other manner. Let them believe what they want, it's a free country and their words will not prevail against the Church.
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« Reply #304 on: June 07, 2011, 09:46:08 AM »


......a sole hieromonk who is obsessed with our elimination?


Speaking with a Russian priest in New York who has had involvement with the reception of the Milan priests into the Russian Church.  "God could not have sent the Milan Synod a greater blessing than its new American leader Archbishop LoBue.   His harsh and intemperate attitude to the Orthodox is causing the intelligent priests to desert Milan and seek refuge in the Russian  Church."

So it would seem to be the Primate of American Milan who is the prime agent in this Church's pending elimination.
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« Reply #305 on: June 07, 2011, 10:31:55 AM »

I have to say that in spite of my lifelong geographic proximity to Woodstock, NY (about 100 miles or so) and my family connections to New Jersey, I never heard of, or ran into, anyone from the Milan Synod. According to OrthodoxWiki, their history is interesting.

The baptistry chapel in Woodstock appears to be quite a lovely structure.

It is unfortunate that there does appear to be a concerted effort by some there to discredit Fr. Ambrose without truly addressing his charges against their leader. Having learned a bit more about them and their history, their current stance as articulated by Fr. Ambrose hurts even more. I do not view them as being emissaries of Satan or the like, nor do I believe that Fr. Ambrose thinks anything of that sort.

I do believe however that Satan enjoys the fruits of their misplaced zeal.

We have been the sad witnesses to much division within our Orthodox Church in the 20th and into the 21st century. Rhetoric can often be overheated in our zeal for the truth. I would hope that despite their differences with us, that those whose consciences lead them to the Milan Metropolia would consider the harshness of their words and ask themselves in their hearts if that is truly the way of our Lord.
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« Reply #306 on: June 07, 2011, 08:04:03 PM »

Hierodeacon Augustine, for the sake of clarification, has placed a set of short commentaries on the disputed parts of the confession here.

http://metropoliafansite.blogspot.com/2011/06/short-commentary.html
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« Reply #307 on: June 08, 2011, 09:00:56 AM »

Hierodeacon Augustine, for the sake of clarification, has placed a set of short commentaries on the disputed parts of the confession here.

http://metropoliafansite.blogspot.com/2011/06/short-commentary.html

This is strange.   Your senior monk PapaSymeon has poured scorn on that site

Quote from: PapasSymeon
Also TIH likes to quote from unofficial sources like the urls he cited.

But here you are recommending that we read things on it!!??
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« Reply #308 on: June 08, 2011, 09:10:30 AM »

Hierodeacon Augustine, for the sake of clarification, has placed a set of short commentaries on the disputed parts of the confession here.

http://metropoliafansite.blogspot.com/2011/06/short-commentary.html

This is strange.   Your senior monk PapaSymeon has poured scorn on that site

Quote from: PapasSymeon
Also TIH likes to quote from unofficial sources like the urls he cited.


But here you are recommending that we read things on it!!??

I would "scorn" http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/ in the way you try to use such sites because The Hermitage Journal, though mine, in not an official site of our Holy Metropolia. May God help you!
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« Reply #309 on: June 08, 2011, 09:15:42 AM »

Hierodeacon Augustine, for the sake of clarification, has placed a set of short commentaries on the disputed parts of the confession here.

http://metropoliafansite.blogspot.com/2011/06/short-commentary.html

This is strange.   Your senior monk PapaSymeon has poured scorn on that site

Quote from: PapasSymeon
Also TIH likes to quote from unofficial sources like the urls he cited.


But here you are recommending that we read things on it!!??

I would "scorn" http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/ in the way you try to use such sites because The Hermitage Journal, though mine, in not an official site of our Holy Metropolia. May God help you!

PapaSymeon,  we have been told by your good self repeatedly and firmly, and also by the two deacons Joseph Suaiden and Augustine Fetter that we must not accept anything which does not come from your Metropolitan.   Do you deny that you have stated this again and again?

So why do you want us to pay any attention to the writings of Deacon Fetter on some unofficial site?   
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« Reply #310 on: June 08, 2011, 09:18:36 AM »

Hierodeacon Augustine, for the sake of clarification, has placed a set of short commentaries on the disputed parts of the confession here.

http://metropoliafansite.blogspot.com/2011/06/short-commentary.html

This is strange.   Your senior monk PapaSymeon has poured scorn on that site

Quote from: PapasSymeon
Also TIH likes to quote from unofficial sources like the urls he cited.


But here you are recommending that we read things on it!!??

I would "scorn" http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/ in the way you try to use such sites because The Hermitage Journal, though mine, in not an official site of our Holy Metropolia. May God help you!

PapaSymeon,  we have been told by your good self repeatedly and firmly, and also by the two deacons Joseph Suaiden and Augustine Fetter that we must not accept anything which does not come from your Metropolitan.   Do you deny that you have stated this again and again?

So why do you want us to pay any attention to the writings of Deacon Fetter on some unofficial site?   

Your words, not mine.
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« Reply #311 on: June 08, 2011, 09:49:49 AM »

I want to thank Irish Hermit for helping us layfolk who will decide to stick with our canonical "world Orthodoxy" churches as opposed to whatever these alternative groupings proclaim themselves to be.
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« Reply #312 on: June 08, 2011, 09:58:31 AM »

I want to thank Irish Hermit for helping us layfolk who will decide to stick with our canonical "world Orthodoxy" churches as opposed to whatever these alternative groupings proclaim themselves to be.

This particular Church seems to be passing out of existence.

Its major segment in Italy wishes to come into the Russian Orthodox Church.

Its American segment has lost 7 priests to the Russian Church Abroad and two more will be following them
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« Reply #313 on: June 08, 2011, 04:08:50 PM »

Hierodeacon Augustine, for the sake of clarification, has placed a set of short commentaries on the disputed parts of the confession here.

http://metropoliafansite.blogspot.com/2011/06/short-commentary.html

This is strange.   Your senior monk PapaSymeon has poured scorn on that site

Quote from: PapasSymeon
Also TIH likes to quote from unofficial sources like the urls he cited.


But here you are recommending that we read things on it!!??

I would "scorn" http://hermitage-journal.blogspot.com/ in the way you try to use such sites because The Hermitage Journal, though mine, in not an official site of our Holy Metropolia. May God help you!

PapaSymeon,  we have been told by your good self repeatedly and firmly, and also by the two deacons Joseph Suaiden and Augustine Fetter that we must not accept anything which does not come from your Metropolitan.   Do you deny that you have stated this again and again?

So why do you want us to pay any attention to the writings of Deacon Fetter on some unofficial site?   

Your words, not mine.

Oh, brother! I wrote that Fr Augustine wrote some commentary which was inspired by reading the silliness on this list. Fr Ambrose knows that our Metropolitan is not going to waste time responding to his idiotic posts; and I also know that Fr Augustine, a resident of the monastery, wanted to clarify some things said on this site.

The fact that Fr Symeon has complained (and doesn't seem to retract on the matter) about the existence of sites that talk about our Synod that he doesn't control is not my problem. That you'd like to turn his complaint into an official pronouncement is ridiculous.

And Fr Symeon, for someone who likes to make his sites look official, complete with your own church directories, "jurisdictional sites" (TOC-America.org? REALLY? Adding the word "unofficial" after the fact doesn't take away the fact that it looks like some alternate Metropolia site with a totally different focus), et cetera, should you really have an issue with a site that has the word "fan site" in the title?

Seriously, you two need to give it a rest. But I know that's just not possible!
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« Reply #314 on: June 08, 2011, 07:45:54 PM »


Oh, brother! I wrote that Fr Augustine wrote some commentary which was inspired by reading the silliness on this list. ...and I also know that Fr Augustine, a resident of the monastery, wanted to clarify some things said on this site.

And I hope the OC.net readers have read it. I hope they have also gone to the Metropolia's Official site and read the entire Clergy Confession.

Fr Ambrose knows that our Metropolitan is not going to waste time responding to his idiotic posts;

Exactly why he goes to your sites and mine so he can turn our words around and spit them back at us.


...(to Fr Ambrose) That you'd like to turn his (i.e., Fr Symeon's) complaint into an official pronouncement is ridiculous.

Extremely ridiculous. Ludicrous even!

And Fr Ambrose, stop making erroneous attributions ("senior monastic" among others) in my regards. You come across as solicitious. We know who's famous for that!



And Fr Symeon, ... should you really have an issue with a site that has the word "fan site" in the title?

O dear Fr Joseph, unlike you, there be nothing in the titles or content of your blogs or any websites or blogs belonging to any of our Metropolia's clerics and clergy that I might "take issue". (Except for maybe some errors in links and claims, all very minor things that comes under "housekeeping").

My position, is that the public should take seriously and trustworthy what they read on the three Official sites of our Metropolia. 1. milansynodusa.org  2. orthodoxwest.net 3.holynameabbey.org  

Any other sites belonging to clerics and clergy of our Metropolia should be read with a grain of salt and never quoted as official Metropolia positions nor representing His Beatitude our Metropolitan.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 07:52:47 PM by PapaSymeon » Logged

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