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Author Topic: Merged discussion of all things Milan Synod  (Read 27576 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #225 on: April 19, 2011, 03:57:21 PM »

I've often wondered the same thing vis-a-vis the Milan Synod itself. I think "autonomy" has taken on a new meaning since the fall of the world Orthodox Churches into heresy ;-).

Exactly what is your issue with the question of autonomy? I realize our situation is complex, but this seems like a mantra I keep hearing with no good explanation. Please clarify your statement.
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« Reply #226 on: April 19, 2011, 04:14:42 PM »

So, as of now the Autonomous Metropolia of America is still under Milan?

If the Milan Synod is accepted by the MP or some other Church affiliated with Canonical Orthodoxy, would the Autonomous Metropolia declare immediate autocephalecy, or try to go under another Old Calendar Church?
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« Reply #227 on: April 19, 2011, 04:17:21 PM »

I've often wondered the same thing vis-a-vis the Milan Synod itself. I think "autonomy" has taken on a new meaning since the fall of the world Orthodox Churches into heresy ;-).

Exactly what is your issue with the question of autonomy? I realize our situation is complex, but this seems like a mantra I keep hearing with no good explanation. Please clarify your statement.

In the Ecumenical Sergianist World Hetherodox sc. Churches the term "autonomous Church" means that the Church governs internally on her own and external realtons and the recognition of the Primate is done by the Mother Church. In the Super True Orthodox Old Calendar Milan Synod this terms means that the Church schisms with the Mother Church.
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« Reply #228 on: April 19, 2011, 04:22:45 PM »

Has the Milan Synod determined not to seek union with any of the Oriental Orthodox Churches?

I know that a few years ago formal approaches were made to a variety of OO communities. Indeed we even had an MS priest approach the BOC in the UK, and I know that other MS clergy had approached the Copts in France.
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« Reply #229 on: April 19, 2011, 04:29:47 PM »

Has the Milan Synod determined not to seek union with any of the Oriental Orthodox Churches?

I know that a few years ago formal approaches were made to a variety of OO communities. Indeed we even had an MS priest approach the BOC in the UK, and I know that other MS clergy had approached the Copts in France.

That isn't really accurate.

And no, we do not recognize the "Oriental Orthodox" Churches. But we can't speak for Milan.

Note: why are you wearing a Mitre if you are a priest? Does the BOC make mitred archpriests? Just curious.
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« Reply #230 on: April 19, 2011, 04:30:57 PM »

In the Ecumenical Sergianist World Hetherodox sc. Churches the term "autonomous Church" means that the Church governs internally on her own and external realtons and the recognition of the Primate is done by the Mother Church.

Cutting out the slur at the end, can you please explain how this is different than what we do.
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« Reply #231 on: April 19, 2011, 04:35:46 PM »

So, as of now the Autonomous Metropolia of America is still under Milan?

If the Milan Synod is accepted by the MP or some other Church affiliated with Canonical Orthodoxy, would the Autonomous Metropolia declare immediate autocephalecy, or try to go under another Old Calendar Church?

As of now, Milan has declared it's no longer in communion with any party not recognizing the Moscow Patriarchate. That includes us. So the answer to the first question is no.

We have no reason to declare autocephaly and we are in communion with our three sister Churches in Greece, Bulgaria, and Russia. I personally do not envision our Metropolia going "under obedience" to another Synod anytime soon. Warning: personal belief inserted here-- I do not formally represent our Synod in any capacity except as a deacon of my little mission. If Milan goes into schism, I believe we would have a moral responsibility to work on the restructuring of our Synod in Europe. How that would work is unclear, and because we are autonomous, this would not become an issue unless, God forbid, our Metropolitan reposed.
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« Reply #232 on: April 19, 2011, 04:45:42 PM »

That isn't really accurate.

And no, we do not recognize the "Oriental Orthodox" Churches. But we can't speak for Milan.

I think it is very accurate. The Milan Synod's petition was discussed at the Holy Synod of the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate, and an MS priest approached the BOC to be received, and his petition was discussed by the Synod of the BOC, and a bishop of the MS was received as a priest into the French Coptic Orthodox Church.

These are all facts.
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« Reply #233 on: April 19, 2011, 04:46:50 PM »

In the Ecumenical Sergianist World Hetherodox sc. Churches the term "autonomous Church" means that the Church governs internally on her own and external realtons and the recognition of the Primate is done by the Mother Church.

Cutting out the slur at the end, can you please explain how this is different than what we do.

Sergianist Churches: Orthodox Church of Japan is the autonomous Church under the MP. The Patriarch of Moscow approves the election of the CoJ Primate and the MP and CoJ are in communion.

Milan Churches: American Milan Diocese is the autonomous Church under the European Milan Church. They are in schism.

Really no difference?
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« Reply #234 on: April 19, 2011, 04:49:44 PM »

That isn't really accurate.

And no, we do not recognize the "Oriental Orthodox" Churches. But we can't speak for Milan.

I think it is very accurate. The Milan Synod's petition was discussed at the Holy Synod of the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate, and an MS priest approached the BOC to be received, and his petition was discussed by the Synod of the BOC, and a bishop of the MS was received as a priest into the French Coptic Orthodox Church.

These are all facts.

Nor do I deny them. But your words were "I know that a few years ago formal approaches were made to a variety of OO communities." As far as I can see there are twelve churches in your communion. The story behind the Milan Synod's "petition" to one jursidiction, that of the Syrians, as you well know, was based upon mutual misunderstanding of acceptance of the seven councils and went nowhere. Nor do a priest or former Bishop qualify as "formal approaches", because the description implies a synodal action, which isn't the case.

Now, I'm still curious about your hat. Smiley
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« Reply #235 on: April 19, 2011, 04:51:20 PM »

As far as I can see there are twelve churches in your communion.

6
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« Reply #236 on: April 19, 2011, 05:01:47 PM »

Quote
Cutting out the slur at the end, can you please explain how this is different than what we do.

Sergianist Churches: Orthodox Church of Japan is the autonomous Church under the MP. The Patriarch of Moscow approves the election of the CoJ Primate and the MP and CoJ are in communion.

Milan Churches: American Milan Diocese is the autonomous Church under the European Milan Church. They are in schism.

Really no difference?

Yes, really. Thank you for dividing it between (S) Sergianist and (M) Milan Churches. We can now put it into a clearer form. Let us label daughter Churches with a number.

Milan Churches, like Sergianist Churches, followed exact same structural division.

S (S1, S2, S3, S4, S5, S6) would, for example, describe the MP-CoJ relationship, and other such relationships. Let's make Moldova S6 for example.

Likewise:

M (M1) would then describe our relationship, whereas a sister Church relationship would be M-G-B-R, for example.

In April it was announced that M wished to become (S6 (S6.1)) and broke communion with anyone who opted not to recognize that action, meaning M recognized S (S1-6), which was never formally done by M (M1) before.

Now, some argue that the wording of the Tomos and M's subsequent actions created a M-G-B-R-A relationship, in which case M1=A. I don't follow that line, per se, because leaving aside the question of the nature of the pre-schism autonomy in the West, I think convention needs to be followed.

Thus, M1 is now morally obligated, before or upon the death of the Metropolitan, to either help restore M, declare their understanding to be A (which I would be hesitant to see happen, because I don't think there's a very good support for that position) or have G-B-R determine their status. I personally think the most logical conclusion is restoring M.

Now this is all confusing because internally M is giving mixed messages. If M is really going to become S6.1, then we have an issue. If not, this breach will be restored once the M's internal agitators complete their work and leave. That would leave M and S6.1, in which case it obviously would be worth supporting M on our part, restoring M (M.1) to their original status.
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« Reply #237 on: April 19, 2011, 05:02:26 PM »

As far as I can see there are twelve churches in your communion.

6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy#Oriental_Orthodox_Communion

Looks like 12 to me.
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« Reply #238 on: April 19, 2011, 06:42:01 PM »

Now, I'm still curious about your hat. Smiley

AFAIK, Fr. Peter's hat is not a mitre. It's a Coptic Orthodox presbiters' hat worn by them during the Liturgy.
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« Reply #239 on: April 19, 2011, 07:05:44 PM »

If I'm not mistaken there are seven functionally autocephalous Orthodox Churches that reject Chalcedon (the Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopian, and Eritrean Orthodox Churches, the Armenian Orthodox Churches of Echmiadzin and Cilicia, and the independent Malankara Orthodox Church) and then there are three autonomous churches (the Armenian Orthodox Churches of Jerusalem and Constantinople and the Malankara Orthodox Church under the Syrians).
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« Reply #240 on: April 19, 2011, 07:32:42 PM »

. . . and then there are three autonomous churches (the Armenian Orthodox Churches of Jerusalem and Constantinople and the Malankara Orthodox Church under the Syrians).

What about the British Orthodox Church and the French Coptic Orthodox Church under the Copts? They are at least semi-autonomous, maybe even fully autonomous but I'm not sure.
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« Reply #241 on: April 19, 2011, 07:42:29 PM »


Note: why are you wearing a Mitre if you are a priest? Does the BOC make mitred archpriests? Just curious.

Fr Deacon Joseph worships in the Mozarabic Rite and their priests wear quite extraordinary headgear while celebrating.  To my eyes it looks like a black woolly teapot cover but it must have some liturgical significance?

Pictures:
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« Reply #242 on: April 19, 2011, 07:47:25 PM »

. . . and then there are three autonomous churches (the Armenian Orthodox Churches of Jerusalem and Constantinople and the Malankara Orthodox Church under the Syrians).

What about the British Orthodox Church and the French Coptic Orthodox Church under the Copts? They are at least semi-autonomous, maybe even fully autonomous but I'm not sure.

Well, that would make twelve, but my original point is, I think, established. Milan had dialogue with the Syrians alone. Not "various" OO groups.

The talks collapsed.

Now, I realize most of the World Orthodox on this group looking at our Synod seem to think we are just filled with hate towards everyone who isn't us, but to be honest, I'd like to see people like the British and the other Western Orthodox bodies unite, and provide a greater witness to Orthodoxy. I would say that all of these Western European jurisdictions could unite as one Orthodox Church of the West as well as preserve their original autonomy of the first 10 centuries of Orthodoxy, but acceptance of the faith represented by the totality of the Pan-Orthodox Councils and the Traditional Church Calendar are needed.

But if that happens, who knows? Maybe we could even... elect an Orthodox Pope of Rome! (This is a joke. An Orthodox Pope of Rome would likely be assassinated very quickly.)
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« Reply #243 on: April 19, 2011, 08:13:22 PM »


Now, I realize most of the World Orthodox on this group looking at our Synod seem to think we are just filled with hate towards everyone who isn't us,

Probably fostered by the statement of your new Primate two weeks ago (4 April 2011) that all our Patriarchs and clergy are priests of Satan.  Funny how such a statement can deliver a negative impression of your opinion of us.

"...the American Sister Church published statements which condemned the Moscow Patriarchate as an abomination, and declared that the Patriarchs and the innovating clergy and laity are representatives of Satan (either knowingly or unknowingly)"

http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2011/04/american-and-european-metropolias-no.html#more

Funny how such a statement could make us feel that your Synod is "just filled with hate" towards us.

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« Reply #244 on: April 20, 2011, 02:53:14 AM »

I believe both the British and French Coptic Orthodox Churches are individual dioceses permitted a number of liberties others are not normally allowed, but Fr. Peter would better know the situation...
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« Reply #245 on: April 20, 2011, 03:34:51 AM »

(This is a joke. An Orthodox Pope of Rome would likely be assassinated very quickly.)

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« Reply #246 on: April 20, 2011, 03:53:19 AM »

Btw, has there been attempts to revive Ambrosian and Mozarabic rites in this European Milan Synod?
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« Reply #247 on: April 20, 2011, 04:09:26 AM »

Not to sidetrack the thread, but yes, the British and French Churches are presently dioceses permitted a degree of liberty based on our mission towards indigenous peoples.
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« Reply #248 on: April 20, 2011, 04:37:13 AM »

(This is a joke. An Orthodox Pope of Rome would likely be assassinated very quickly.)



I guess one in communion with a 'church' that colluded with the killing of millions of people and countless martyrs and then officially denied all knowledge of same for decades would see someone who understands that the Vatican has a very efficient police force that would work with the state to neutralize potentially destablizing forces as a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

Now those are some nice hats. Anything that helps one free one's mind is good in my view. Even in Russia they know better. Probably because there's no flouride in the water system there.
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« Reply #249 on: April 20, 2011, 07:59:31 AM »

Sometimes I wonder how many of these "true" & "traditionalist" groupings that often use the terms "world Orthodoxy" & "anathema" often even have any laity.
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« Reply #250 on: April 20, 2011, 08:11:02 AM »


I think it is very accurate. The Milan Synod's petition was discussed at the Holy Synod of the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate,


The Synod of Milan has made strong efforts to unite with not a few of the ancient Patriarchates as well as the Syriac Orthodox Church

1. Church of Constantinople

2. Church of Russia

3. Church of Bulgaria.

4. Church of Romania

5. Church of Serbia

6. Church of Georgia

7. Church of Antioch

8. Syriac Orthodox Church


A fuller description of these attempts at union is at message 20
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4577.msg518877.html#msg518877
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« Reply #251 on: April 20, 2011, 08:19:23 AM »

That isn't really accurate.

I think it is very accurate. The Milan Synod's petition was discussed at the Holy Synod of the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate,


I concur with Father Peter that it is accurate.


The Holy Synod [of the Syriac Orthodox Church] in an Extraordinary Session in Damascus

At the invitation of His Holiness the Patriarch, the Holy Synod resumed its
extraordinary session on Wednesday October 4th through Sunday October 7th.
The Synodal meeting was called to examine the case of a group of European
bishops who have expressed a desire to join our Syriac Orthodox Church of
Antioch. After meeting with their delegates and examining issues related to
their ecclesiastical status, the Holy Synod formed a committee to visit the
bishops at their headquarters in Europe.

This committee will present a report to the Holy Synod for its September
2002 meeting when a final decision will be taken in regard to the case of
these bishops.

TEBEH Volume 1 . Issue 1- Page 2 - November 2001

http://web.archive.org/web/20070122161752/http://www.syrianorthodoxchurch.org/news/tebeh/tebeh-v1-i1.pdf
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« Reply #252 on: April 20, 2011, 04:23:22 PM »

Sometimes I wonder how many of these "true" & "traditionalist" groupings that often use the terms "world Orthodoxy" & "anathema" often even have any laity.

Why wouldn't they have laity? Because they use the terms "World Orthodoxy" and "anathema"? The second term is used about dozens of times on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, so based on that logic, Orthodoxy should have no laity at all.
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« Reply #253 on: April 20, 2011, 05:40:36 PM »

Sometimes I wonder how many of these "true" & "traditionalist" groupings that often use the terms "world Orthodoxy" & "anathema" often even have any laity.

Why wouldn't they have laity? Because they use the terms "World Orthodoxy" and "anathema"? The second term is used about dozens of times on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, so based on that logic, Orthodoxy should have no laity at all.

I wonder if Recent Convert has in mind the negative and condemnatory tone which is a feature of  much Greek Old Calendarist writings.

Communications from Milan clergy in the United States show they are searching for a way to make sense of what has happened to them.

Mention was made of the depressingly negative atmosphere of Met  John LoBue's "Confession" (the new Primate of the ex-Milan group in America) and that it has no mention at all of Jesus Christ, the Gospel or forgiveness.  As a confessional statement meant to set the tone of a new Church it is seen as a bit of a dismal failure.
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« Reply #254 on: April 20, 2011, 06:42:23 PM »

Mention was made of the depressingly negative atmosphere of Met  John LoBue's "Confession" (the new Primate of the ex-Milan group in America) and that it has no mention at all of Jesus Christ, the Gospel or forgiveness.  As a confessional statement meant to set the tone of a new Church it is seen as a bit of a dismal failure.

Our people seem to like it fine.

The Confession mentions all three things you discuss but in an Orthodox context, something that your KGB-leaders don't really understand well.
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« Reply #255 on: April 20, 2011, 06:57:00 PM »

Mention was made of the depressingly negative atmosphere of Met  John LoBue's "Confession" (the new Primate of the ex-Milan group in America) and that it has no mention at all of Jesus Christ, the Gospel or forgiveness.  As a confessional statement meant to set the tone of a new Church it is seen as a bit of a dismal failure.

Our people seem to like it fine.


That could be questioned.   Two of your American priests have come into the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad very recently and a further 3 are in process.   That indicates that not all your clergy in the US are happy with the new rather negative and isolationist atmosphere being created in what was American Milan but is now the Metropolia of the Americas and Britain (MAB).  These priests obviously prefer to make their spiritual home among what your Metropolitan has recklessly called the "priests of Satan" rather than live with the new MAB.
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« Reply #256 on: April 20, 2011, 07:26:31 PM »

From our little fan site, the story of one of the two priests who actually left for the ecumenists recently (he, like the other priest, also left alone), looking an awful lot like the story of the other one who left in 2008, which, to some I guess, is "recent" and newsworthy:
Quote
http://metropoliafansite.blogspot.com/2011/03/archimandrite-wolfgang-officially.html

Saturday, March 26, 2011

"Archimandrite Wolfgang" officially leaves
Fr Christopher Wolfgang, after exactly 20 minutes of exposure for his treacherous and underhanded departure to the ROCOR-Moscow Patriarchate on this little fan site, has claimed it caused his "parish" to turn and demand that he in fact leave for the Moscow Patriarchate!

In actual fact, we received evidence that Fr Christopher had, in contravention of the canons, pretended to remain a member of our Synod while secretly working under the guidance of his former spiritual "father", the "married-bishop" turned "subdeacon" Anthony Bondi to develop a Moscow Patriarchate presence in Seymour, IN.

In the process of discovery, a post was placed on this site announcing the departure and was removed 20 minutes later. Amazingly, Fr Christopher discovered this within those 20 minutes, and somehow, mysteriously, his "whole parish" was asking him to leave suddenly thereafter. His ingenious defense? "My email was hacked!"

Amazing.

It's my personal belief that there are still two more major moles in the Metropolia (not counting assistants) waiting to be exposed. Allow me this moment to put them on notice-- start working more carefully. You are being watched.

I wrote the above, and meant it. I personally consider it the responsibility of every Orthodox Christian to defend their faith, and preserve it from those who wish to overthrow it.  If we discover a heretic, we will tell him the heresy. If he chooses to ignore the truth and leave, isn't it better that people live their lives more openly and honestly, rather than try to convert people to their evil ecumenist heresy?

What I think certain people don't realize is that in fact we are still growing in spite of the best attacks of our enemies, the pseudo-traditional ecumenists. They seem to think us so desperate that we are worried if people leave; they think we are as self-conscious about the authenticity of our faith as they are.

Well, it's not our salvation the defectors are putting in jeopardy. It's their own.

May God have mercy on them.
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« Reply #257 on: April 20, 2011, 08:30:42 PM »

What I think certain people don't realize is that in fact we are still growing in spite of the best attacks of our enemies, the pseudo-traditional ecumenists.

In light of this:

I'd be interested in knowing, if the numbers are available, just how many people this does affect.  How many people belong to the Milan Synod in the U.S.?  How many in Europe?  How many in South America, etc., etc.?


Me too! If you can't get accurate numbers from the official Churches (which are extremely difficult) then it's extremely difficult to ask them from us, since we've never counted.

How do you know that you're growing?
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« Reply #258 on: April 20, 2011, 09:33:30 PM »


It's my personal belief that there are still two more major moles in the Metropolia (not counting assistants) waiting to be exposed. Allow me this moment to put them on notice-- start working more carefully. You are being watched.


Communications from Milan clergy in the United States show they are searching for a way to make sense of what has happened to them.

They were catapulted overnight into an "autocephaly" about which they were not consulted.

They feel betrayed by Metropolitan John LoBue who has unilaterally imposed on them an isolationist ecclesiology which suits himself and those who are being called the Suaidenites but which was never the ecclesiology of the Milan which they joined.

They feel that the"Clergy Confession" expresses an understanding of the Church which is alien to the traditonal teaching of Milan and they do not want to buy into it.

They feel that they are being treated like inert potatoes who can be thrown from one Church to another..

One correspondent who has canvassed his clergy friends thinks that the split is 50-50 and around half of the clergy will be unable to accept this new Church and its alien ecclesiology.

One priest brought up the possibility of forming an Exarchate of Milan in America under the omophor of Metropolitan Evloghios.

In my opinion this is unlikely to be realised because the priests who want to leave American Milan are already finding their spiritual home in the Russian Church Abroad, and European Milan is making efforts to come into communion with the Church of Russia.

The priests who are leaving you, dear Suaiden, are not "moles" or traitors but simply men who are putting an enormous amount of thought and discernment into the "new" Milan which you are creating in the States.   They do not seem to want to be part of it.  They do not agree with the official statement of your Metropolitan John LoBue that all the Patriarchs and clergy are "representatives of Satan."  They find that they simply cannot adopt such a fundamentalist belief.   So now they are simply doing what you yourself must have done when you have made the five or six transitions from Church to Church.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 09:35:46 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #259 on: April 20, 2011, 09:49:06 PM »

Sometimes I wonder how many of these "true" & "traditionalist" groupings that often use the terms "world Orthodoxy" & "anathema" often even have any laity.

"True" & "traditionalist" is so 2006.  I now only accept the "Truer" & "Traditionalister" groupings.

Well, it's not our salvation the defectors are putting in jeopardy. It's their own.
Hmm.
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« Reply #260 on: June 03, 2011, 09:38:40 PM »

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem )

Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum )

St. Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron )



Dear Deacon
(Metropolia of America and Britain),

Your Metropolitan who heads America's newest Orthodox Church has issued an official statement that all the Patriarchs and clergy of the canonical Churches are "representatives of Satan." You have told me yourself that I am a priest of Satan as well as my Metropolitan Hilarion.  In light of these quotations above, I take it that your Church teaches that I (and the other Orthodox on the Forum?) are going to hell? 

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« Reply #261 on: June 04, 2011, 07:15:54 AM »

Saints preserve us! Now the Milan..uh-remnant of the former Milan Synod in the US, apparently currently known as the 'American Metropolia' (a name used before guys, and not exactly a sterling one in the annals of traditional Orthodoxy ...) are attempting to grab the reins of the True Orthodox/Old Calendar movement in North America, rehabilitate the name "American Metropolia" for the Traditionalists, and show the world they can no longer abide Abundius!  ... beat it, Boston! Go away Agafangel! Take off, Tikhon! push off, Pavlos!shove off, Symeon!  Mila ... er, the American Metropolia had arrived! Abundius? are you kiddin??
And hey-publicly breaking communion is better than privately breaking communion! Right? Uh-aint it? Huh? Oh well, what do all us "representatives of Satan" know, anyway?
now, i dont want anyone to get mad-just tryin to lighten things up a little teeny bit ... I know, I know, callin' people reps fer satan is cool, but tryin to lighten things up fer a sec or two is an awfully horrible and nasty thang ta do! my bad! just cant help myself!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 07:45:35 AM by mwoerl » Logged
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« Reply #262 on: June 04, 2011, 09:29:30 AM »

Saints preserve us! Now the Milan..uh-remnant of the former Milan Synod in the US, apparently currently known as the 'American Metropolia' (a name used before guys, and not exactly a sterling one in the annals of traditional Orthodoxy ...) are attempting to grab the reins of the True Orthodox/Old Calendar movement in North America, rehabilitate the name "American Metropolia" for the Traditionalists, and show the world they can no longer abide Abundius!  ... beat it, Boston! Go away Agafangel! Take off, Tikhon! push off, Pavlos!shove off, Symeon!  Mila ... er, the American Metropolia had arrived! Abundius? are you kiddin??
And hey-publicly breaking communion is better than privately breaking communion! Right? Uh-aint it? Huh? Oh well, what do all us "representatives of Satan" know, anyway?
now, i dont want anyone to get mad-just tryin to lighten things up a little teeny bit ... I know, I know, callin' people reps fer satan is cool, but tryin to lighten things up fer a sec or two is an awfully horrible and nasty thang ta do! my bad! just cant help myself!
Testify!!!
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« Reply #263 on: June 04, 2011, 12:03:19 PM »

...In all seriousness I think we should try to keep this thread from attacking one another.  Even if you believe that what you say is true (not "you" specifically but "you" in general), remember that we should be speaking the truth in love.  How can I be angry at someone who I believe is in a dangerous situation not being in a Traditional Orthodox Church?  I should be sad for them, not angry at them.  Now I know this is a mainline Orthodox forum so my opinion is in the minority, but you can easily switch that statement around from your point-of-view.

   Cheesy  go Searn!
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« Reply #264 on: June 04, 2011, 07:44:20 PM »

...In all seriousness I think we should try to keep this thread from attacking one another.  Even if you believe that what you say is true (not "you" specifically but "you" in general), remember that we should be speaking the truth in love.  How can I be angry at someone who I believe is in a dangerous situation not being in a Traditional Orthodox Church?  I should be sad for them, not angry at them.  Now I know this is a mainline Orthodox forum so my opinion is in the minority, but you can easily switch that statement around from your point-of-view.

   Cheesy  go Searn!

How can I or any of the clergy here or the Orthodox faithful deal with a tiny group of people like yourselves who have judged all of Orthodoxy to be priests of Satan and representatives of Satan and whose Primate in New York has gone to the trouble of stating that in official statements.

Also, how can YOU want to deal with the servants of Satan?   And, if we are satanic, why is it that 7 of your priests have joined the Russian Church Abroad in the last year and a bit, and there are two more in the pipeline?

Metropolitan John LoBue...

"...the American Sister Church published statements which condemned the
Moscow Patriarchate as an abomination, and declared that the Patriarchs and
the innovating clergy and laity are representatives of Satan (either
knowingly or unknowingly)"


http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2011/04/american-and-european-metropolias-no.html#more

I have to suppress a host of Monty Python type responses to this nonsense from your Church.

I know, PapaSymeon, that you are one of the good ones who have not swallowed this teaching.  You are in my prayers.
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« Reply #265 on: June 04, 2011, 08:13:14 PM »

[I have to suppress a host of Monty Python type responses to this nonsense from your Church.

While I respect the suppression I also rather regret it Wink

In Christ and with prayers for those 'in the pipeline',
Sr Margaret
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« Reply #266 on: June 04, 2011, 08:40:44 PM »

Have you read Papa Symeon's confession of faith...  Father, do you still hold this view..."Thus, those who Observe or Communicate knowingly with the ecumenists/new calendarists, have denied themselves the sanctifying grace of Holy Spirit so their sacraments are not valid"
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« Reply #267 on: June 04, 2011, 10:51:27 PM »

How can I or any of the clergy here or the Orthodox faithful deal with a tiny group of people like yourselves who have judged all of Orthodoxy to be priests of Satan and representatives of Satan and whose Primate in New York has gone to the trouble of stating that in official statements.

You or any other World Orthodox clergy could try to speak to this tiny group of people with love.

Also, how can YOU want to deal with the servants of Satan?   And, if we are satanic, why is it that 7 of your priests have joined the Russian Church Abroad in the last year and a bit, and there are two more in the pipeline?

I'm not sure who you are addressing with "YOU" but why would I or another person of our metropolia NOT want to deal with representatives of satan? Are we only supposed to deal with fellow Orthodox Christians?

Also, I am not in our Metropolia because of how many people are in it; I am with our Metropolia because I believe it to be truly Orthodox.  People have left Orthodoxy to become Roman Catholic, and Roman Catholicism has many more people than Eastern Orthodoxy. Does this mean that I should become Roman Catholic?

Metropolitan John LoBue...

"...the American Sister Church published statements which condemned the
Moscow Patriarchate as an abomination, and declared that the Patriarchs and
the innovating clergy and laity are representatives of Satan (either
knowingly or unknowingly)"


http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2011/04/american-and-european-metropolias-no.html#more

I'm not sure why you don't just quote from the actual statement that is being addressed as it isn't that long or anything. Here it is if someone wants to see what it says:
http://www.milansynodusa.org/2011/03/text-of-confession-of-faith-to-be.html#more

I have to suppress a host of Monty Python type responses to this nonsense from your Church.

I know, PapaSymeon, that you are one of the good ones who have not swallowed this teaching.  You are in my prayers.


Really I'm not sure why you seem to focus on our metropolia's stance regarding World Orthodox Churches, as our metropolia's official statements seem to me to really be middle-of-the-road when compared to other Old Calendarist synods.
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« Reply #268 on: June 04, 2011, 11:08:31 PM »

How can I or any of the clergy here or the Orthodox faithful deal with a tiny group of people like yourselves who have judged all of Orthodoxy to be priests of Satan and representatives of Satan and whose Primate in New York has gone to the trouble of stating that in official statements.


You or any other World Orthodox clergy could try to speak to this tiny group of people with love.

But we do!

Why do you think that the Milan Synod is back in negotiations with the Church of Russia?    It is because they are being treated with love.

Why do you think that 7 American Milan priests have come into the Russian Church Abroad in the last 18 months and there are two more on the way?  It is because we treat them with love and respect.

What we find hard to accept is simply the isolationist new members of American Milan who have taken over the farm..... for example, preaching that I am a priest of Satan and my Metropolitan and my Patriarch.    But even for these very difficult people we maintain our prayers for their well-being.  Speak to PapaSymeon.  He will tell you how difficult it is for him and the older clergy of American Milan to accept the new isolationist spirit which Archbishop John LoBue has permitted to engulf you.   PapaSymeon understands very well why Milan priests are coming over to the Russian Church Abroad.
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« Reply #269 on: June 04, 2011, 11:30:11 PM »



You or any other World Orthodox clergy .


Searn77,

I find the term offensive.

"World Orthodoxy" was coined by dissidents.  They coined it to be in line with "New World Order" and "One World Government" and those types of expression.  It was intended to be negative and disparaging  and to convey "fake" and "false" and "dangerous" and "hated by God."  It also says "You are not baptized, you have no Holy Communion, your bishops are fakes, they are laymen, same for your priests, your Sacraments/Mysteries are graceless rituals." 

Nobody in the Churches of the ancient Patriarchates should use it. 
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