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Author Topic: Merged discussion of all things Milan Synod  (Read 28795 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: April 07, 2011, 10:22:11 PM »

Thanks for the rebuke from the Papist who goes to an Heretical Nestorian church.
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« Reply #181 on: April 07, 2011, 10:25:01 PM »

LOL! Thanks for the rebuke o vagante priest. If the priesthood is equal in hierarchy to the angels I know where you stand.
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« Reply #182 on: April 07, 2011, 10:27:34 PM »

I'm not a priest, never was.  And, no patriarch or whatever deposed us, or defrocked my bishops; unlike yours that were deposed way back by the Ecumenical Councils, and then again anathematized by the Orthodox, especially the Pope of Rome. 
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« Reply #183 on: April 07, 2011, 10:28:58 PM »

I'm not a priest, never was.  And, no patriarch or whatever deposed us, or defrocked my bishops; unlike yours that were deposed way back by the Ecumenical Councils, and then again anathematized by the Orthodox, especially the Pope of Rome.  

Yes whatever. Good luck with your fake Bishop.
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« Reply #184 on: April 07, 2011, 10:33:45 PM »

Okay, good luck praying to Nestorius, who is burning in hell with all the heretics.
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« Reply #185 on: April 07, 2011, 10:34:45 PM »

I'm not a priest, never was.  And, no patriarch or whatever deposed us, or defrocked my bishops; unlike yours that were deposed way back by the Ecumenical Councils, and then again anathematized by the Orthodox, especially the Pope of Rome. 

Your Church headquartered in New York has made a public statement over the last few days (see the OP)  that the Orthodox Patriarchs and all the Orthodox clergy are representatives of Satan.   Is there any need of a formal deposition?    Your words show that you cannot distinguish the true Church of Christ from Satan. 
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« Reply #186 on: April 07, 2011, 10:35:28 PM »

Okay, good luck praying to Nestorius, who is burning in hell with all the heretics.

I do pray to him, tonight I will pray that he leads you away from distributing fake communion to innocent babushkas who could be going to a real Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #187 on: April 07, 2011, 10:36:37 PM »

I'm not a priest, never was.  And, no patriarch or whatever deposed us, or defrocked my bishops; unlike yours that were deposed way back by the Ecumenical Councils, and then again anathematized by the Orthodox, especially the Pope of Rome. 

Your Church headquartered in New York has made a public statement over the last few days (see the OP)  that the Orthodox Patriarchs and all the Orthodox clergy are representatives of Satan.   Is there any need of a formal deposition?    Your words show that you cannot distinguish the true Church of Christ from Satan. 

Does that mean you think the Nestorians and the Pope are also in the True Church of Christ?
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« Reply #188 on: April 07, 2011, 10:38:15 PM »

YOU PRAY TO NESTORIUS THE ARCH-HERETIC! THE MAN ANATHEMATIZED BY THE HOLY ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OF EPHESUS!!!!!!!!!! AND ANATHEMATIZED AND CONDEMNED BY ALL THE SAINTS AND HOLY FATHERS OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH, AS WELL AS ALL THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS???!!!!

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« Reply #189 on: April 07, 2011, 10:40:09 PM »

Okay, good luck praying to Nestorius, who is burning in hell with all the heretics.

Dear FrAugustineFetter, you cannot say that about Nestorius.   Nobody except God knows his fate, unless the new Church of MAB has had some divine revelation on the matter?
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« Reply #190 on: April 07, 2011, 10:41:49 PM »

YOU PRAY TO NESTORIUS THE ARCH-HERETIC! THE MAN ANATHEMATIZED BY THE HOLY ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OF EPHESUS!!!!!!!!!! AND ANATHEMATIZED AND CONDEMNED BY ALL THE SAINTS AND HOLY FATHERS OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH, AS WELL AS ALL THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS???!!!!



I sure do since I know Ephesus was a fake council and my superiors in the ACOE never attended a single one of your "ecumenical" councils. Even Nicea which was Orthodox and approved was not attended but only accepted nearly a century later. Of course you wouldn't know that under your ocean of revisionist history...
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« Reply #191 on: April 07, 2011, 10:42:22 PM »

Okay, good luck praying to Nestorius, who is burning in hell with all the heretics.

Dear FrAugustineFetter, you cannot say that about Nestorius.   Nobody except God knows his fate, unless the new Church of MAB has had some divine revelation on the matter?

Can we say that Arius is/will be in hell? I would say that the hymn "Ere the morning star" suggests he is.
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« Reply #192 on: April 07, 2011, 10:45:46 PM »

I'm not a priest, never was.  And, no patriarch or whatever deposed us, or defrocked my bishops; unlike yours that were deposed way back by the Ecumenical Councils, and then again anathematized by the Orthodox, especially the Pope of Rome. 

Your Church headquartered in New York has made a public statement over the last few days (see the OP)  that the Orthodox Patriarchs and all the Orthodox clergy are representatives of Satan.   Is there any need of a formal deposition?    Your words show that you cannot distinguish the true Church of Christ from Satan. 

Does that mean you think the Nestorians and the Pope are also in the True Church of Christ?

It does not mean that. 
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« Reply #193 on: April 07, 2011, 10:48:54 PM »

Okay, good luck praying to Nestorius, who is burning in hell with all the heretics.

Dear FrAugustineFetter, you cannot say that about Nestorius.   Nobody except God knows his fate, unless the new Church of MAB has had some divine revelation on the matter?

Can we say that Arius is/will be in hell? I would say that the hymn "Ere the morning star" suggests he is.

I have mentioned before that we can say that of Arius since our liturgical tradition (in the Vespers Service for the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council) twice makes mention of Arius' fate.
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« Reply #194 on: April 07, 2011, 10:52:56 PM »

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« Reply #195 on: April 07, 2011, 10:54:31 PM »

Okay, good luck praying to Nestorius, who is burning in hell with all the heretics.

Dear FrAugustineFetter, you cannot say that about Nestorius.   Nobody except God knows his fate, unless the new Church of MAB has had some divine revelation on the matter?

Can we say that Arius is/will be in hell? I would say that the hymn "Ere the morning star" suggests he is.

I have mentioned before that we can say that of Arius since our liturgical tradition (in the Vespers Service for the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council) twice makes mention of Arius' fate.


Thank you for clarifying your position. We know that Nestorius in his Bazaar tried to vindicate himself, and this was written shortly before his death. It seems "likely" that he died obstinately in his heresy and in a state of anathema (and thus is in hell), but I will grant you that we are not absolutely sure of this.
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« Reply #196 on: April 07, 2011, 10:55:19 PM »



Ehhh, you won't have much enjoyment from me vs. Irish Hermit, ozgeorge. We've learned to just state our opinions and move on, over the years. Wink
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« Reply #197 on: April 07, 2011, 11:02:12 PM »

From the Spiritual Meadow of John Moschus, about the Fate of Nestorius and other Heretics:

Chapter XXVI
The life of brother THEOPHANES and his marvellous vision, and of communicating with heretics.

There was an old man of great merit in God's eyes called Cyriacus, who belonged to the laura of Calamon near the River Jordan. A pilgrim brother called Theophanes from the region of Dora came to him for counsel about his thoughts of fornication. The old man encouraged and instructed him with advice about modesty and chastity, which greatly edified the brother.
"Truly, father," he said, "if it weren't that in my part of the country I am in communion with the Nestorians I would love to stay with you."
When the old man heard the name of Nestor he was so overcome with fear that this brother would be damned that he fell down and prayed, and begged him to abandon this most evil and pernicious heresy and return to the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
"There is no hope of being saved unless we truly feel and believe that Holy Mary is the birthgiver (genetrix) of God," he said, "and this is true."
"That's all very well, father," said the brother, "but all the heretics say the same, that unless we are in communion with them we cannot be saved. Unfortunately I don't know what to do. So pray to God for me that I may be quite certain which is the true faith."
The old man was delighted to hear what the brother was saying.
"Come and sit in my cave," he said, "and put your whole trust in God that he will reveal to you of his mercy what is the true faith."
He left the brother in his own cave and went out by the Dead Sea, praying to God for the brother. About the ninth hour of the next day the brother saw someone of truly awesome appearance standing next to him.
"Come, and see the truth," he said, and led him to a dark and stinking place throwing up flames of fire, and in the flames he saw Nestorius, Eutyches, Apollinaris, Dioscuros, Severus, Arius, Origen and others like them.
"This is the place prepared for the heretics, blasphemers, and those who follow their teachings," he said to the brother. "So then, if you like the look of this place persist in your teachings, but if you would prefer to avoid this punishment return to the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, as the old man told you. For I tell you, even if a person practises all the virtues there are, unless he believes rightly he will be crucified in this place."
At these words the brother came to himself. He went back to the old man and told him all that he had seen, and returned to the communion of the holy Catholic Church. He stayed with the old man, and after four years with him he rested in peace.




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« Reply #198 on: April 07, 2011, 11:08:04 PM »



Ehhh, you won't have much enjoyment from me vs. Irish Hermit, ozgeorge. We've learned to just state our opinions and move on, over the years. Wink
I'm not enjoying any of this. I'm stress eating to see people treat one another the way they are on this thread.
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« Reply #199 on: April 07, 2011, 11:10:43 PM »



Ehhh, you won't have much enjoyment from me vs. Irish Hermit, ozgeorge. We've learned to just state our opinions and move on, over the years. Wink
I'm not enjoying any of this. I'm stress eating to see people treat one another the way they are on this thread.

Well, I was confused by the popcorn emoticon, I will admit. But me and Irish Hermit are able to engage without treating each other badly. I encourage others to do the same.
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« Reply #200 on: April 07, 2011, 11:18:22 PM »

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem )

Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum )

St. Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron )

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« Reply #201 on: April 07, 2011, 11:22:46 PM »



Ehhh, you won't have much enjoyment from me vs. Irish Hermit, ozgeorge. We've learned to just state our opinions and move on, over the years. Wink
I'm not enjoying any of this. I'm stress eating to see people treat one another the way they are on this thread.

Well, I was confused by the popcorn emoticon, I will admit. But me and Irish Hermit are able to engage without treating each other badly. I encourage others to do the same.
I echo your encouragement to treat others respectfully. Rafa and I have disagreed in the past also, and he knows that I will not allow him to blaspheme the Theotokos without me responding and challenging his Christology, but I would never sink to ad hominems or inane arguments about who is or isn't in hell ( as if I could possibly know that). Such "arguments" are reminiscent of Fred Phelps' "Westboro Baptist Church" and unworthy of the rational sheep of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #202 on: April 07, 2011, 11:24:42 PM »

Okay, good luck praying to Nestorius, who is burning in hell with all the heretics.

I do pray to him, tonight I will pray that he leads you away from distributing fake communion to innocent babushkas who could be going to a real Orthodox Church.
i bet they have not that many babushkas in their conventicles. Mostly religious nerds, emotionally/psychologically disturbed too. That's the make-up of these para-synagogues.
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« Reply #203 on: April 07, 2011, 11:33:47 PM »

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem )

Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum )

St. Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron )


So are you saying that St. Isaac the Syrian, who was never in his lifetime on Earth in canonical Communion with the Orthodox Church, is in hell? http://orthodoxwiki.org/Isaac_of_Syria
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« Reply #204 on: April 07, 2011, 11:34:32 PM »



Ehhh, you won't have much enjoyment from me vs. Irish Hermit, ozgeorge. We've learned to just state our opinions and move on, over the years. Wink

Yes, we have learnt, from past battles, that we do not want to be enemies.   It is made easier for me in that Fr Anastasios takes a moderate view of "global" Orthodoxy and does not deny the existence of grace in our priesthood and our holy Mysteries.  It is hard to have the same respect for "Suaiden" and "FrAugustineFetter" and their bishop who call me a priest of Satan.
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« Reply #205 on: April 07, 2011, 11:36:14 PM »

Okay, good luck praying to Nestorius, who is burning in hell with all the heretics.

I do pray to him, tonight I will pray that he leads you away from distributing fake communion to innocent babushkas who could be going to a real Orthodox Church.
i bet they have not that many babushkas in their conventicles. Mostly religious nerds, emotionally/psychologically disturbed too. That's the make-up of these para-synagogues.
Yep. Annoying as they can sometimes be, the babushkas and the yia yias are the Fifth Gospel of the Church! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmD-wDEeOds
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« Reply #206 on: April 07, 2011, 11:43:13 PM »

One supposed ad hominem attack answered by another?
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« Reply #207 on: April 07, 2011, 11:51:06 PM »

FrAugustineFetter, you didn't answer my question. Is St. Isaac the Syrian (who through all his life until his death was a member of the Nestorian Assyrian Church of the East) in hell?
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« Reply #208 on: April 07, 2011, 11:55:02 PM »

I'll have to study the question, since I don't trust any modern scholarship on most of anything to tell me anything.  I'll have to find some pre-20th century Orthodox anaylsis of the matter.  I trust the Orthodox saints who say he was Orthodox.  In the hypothetical false scenario that he was, the answer is he repented of Nestorianism before death, so he could enter the Kingdom of Heaven; after all, the last second to the last Toll-House is a test of Orthodoxy, and the last a test of Mercy.
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« Reply #209 on: April 07, 2011, 11:57:22 PM »

Oh my...
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« Reply #210 on: April 08, 2011, 12:01:10 AM »

Okay, good luck praying to Nestorius, who is burning in hell with all the heretics.

I do pray to him, tonight I will pray that he leads you away from distributing fake communion to innocent babushkas who could be going to a real Orthodox Church.
i bet they have not that many babushkas in their conventicles. Mostly religious nerds, emotionally/psychologically disturbed too. That's the make-up of these para-synagogues.

I think you can easily substitute "religious internet forums" for your use of "their conventicles" and "these para-synagogues"  Grin
In all seriousness I think we should try to keep this thread from attacking one another.  Even if you believe that what you say is true (not "you" specifically but "you" in general), remember that we should be speaking the truth in love.  How can I be angry at someone who I believe is in a dangerous situation not being in a Traditional Orthodox Church?  I should be sad for them, not angry at them.  Now I know this is a mainline Orthodox forum so my opinion is in the minority, but you can easily switch that statement around from your point-of-view.
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« Reply #211 on: April 08, 2011, 12:09:45 AM »

I'll have to study the question, since I don't trust any modern scholarship on most of anything to tell me anything.  I'll have to find some pre-20th century Orthodox anaylsis of the matter.  I trust the Orthodox saints who say he was Orthodox.  In the hypothetical false scenario that he was, the answer is he repented of Nestorianism before death, so he could enter the Kingdom of Heaven; after all, the last second to the last Toll-House is a test of Orthodoxy, and the last a test of Mercy.
So it is not an issue that St. Isaac the Syrian died outside of the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #212 on: April 08, 2011, 12:12:40 AM »

The Fathers and Saints say he was Orthodoxy and part of the Orthodox Church, not the Nestorian church, despite what the modernists and Nestorians and others say.  T he Jews say Christ didn't rise from the dead, and are joined in a chorus by modern 'scholars', should we take them over the Scriptures, Fathers, and Saints?
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« Reply #213 on: April 08, 2011, 12:15:34 AM »

Sorry, if you don't like the answer of the Fathers and Saints about St. Isaac, and you prefer the answers of modernist scholars and Nestorians, then I can't help you.

I'm finished with my other computer work, so, no more time for the forum today.
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« Reply #214 on: April 08, 2011, 12:17:04 AM »

The Fathers and Saints say he was Orthodoxy and part of the Orthodox Church, not the Nestorian church, despite what the modernists and Nestorians and others say.  T he Jews say Christ didn't rise from the dead, and are joined in a chorus by modern 'scholars', should we take them over the Scriptures, Fathers, and Saints?
His theology may have been Orthodox but St. Isaac the Syrian was never a member of the Orthodox Church. A particular Lutheran's theology may be Orthodox, but if he is not received into the Orthodox Church (like St. Isaac the Syrian), does he go to hell?
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« Reply #215 on: April 08, 2011, 08:13:54 AM »

From the Spiritual Meadow of John Moschus, about the Fate of Nestorius and other Heretics:

Chapter XXVI
The life of brother THEOPHANES and his marvellous vision, and of communicating with heretics.

There was an old man of great merit in God's eyes called Cyriacus, who belonged to the laura of Calamon near the River Jordan. A pilgrim brother called Theophanes from the region of Dora came to him for counsel about his thoughts of fornication. The old man encouraged and instructed him with advice about modesty and chastity, which greatly edified the brother.
"Truly, father," he said, "if it weren't that in my part of the country I am in communion with the Nestorians I would love to stay with you."
When the old man heard the name of Nestor he was so overcome with fear that this brother would be damned that he fell down and prayed, and begged him to abandon this most evil and pernicious heresy and return to the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
"There is no hope of being saved unless we truly feel and believe that Holy Mary is the birthgiver (genetrix) of God," he said, "and this is true."
"That's all very well, father," said the brother, "but all the heretics say the same, that unless we are in communion with them we cannot be saved. Unfortunately I don't know what to do. So pray to God for me that I may be quite certain which is the true faith."
The old man was delighted to hear what the brother was saying.
"Come and sit in my cave," he said, "and put your whole trust in God that he will reveal to you of his mercy what is the true faith."
He left the brother in his own cave and went out by the Dead Sea, praying to God for the brother. About the ninth hour of the next day the brother saw someone of truly awesome appearance standing next to him.
"Come, and see the truth," he said, and led him to a dark and stinking place throwing up flames of fire, and in the flames he saw Nestorius, Eutyches, Apollinaris, Dioscuros, Severus, Arius, Origen and others like them.
"This is the place prepared for the heretics, blasphemers, and those who follow their teachings," he said to the brother. "So then, if you like the look of this place persist in your teachings, but if you would prefer to avoid this punishment return to the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, as the old man told you. For I tell you, even if a person practises all the virtues there are, unless he believes rightly he will be crucified in this place."
At these words the brother came to himself. He went back to the old man and told him all that he had seen, and returned to the communion of the holy Catholic Church. He stayed with the old man, and after four years with him he rested in peace.






You are insulting our theoria level with this scrap. I might as well believe every single delusion every single undisciplined monk ever had. So this so called "elder" believed somebody like the Bishop of Nineveh Mar Isaac who some of the greatest Orthodox Saints had as a spiritual director is in hell I presume ? Hell must have become heaven in that case. This ridiculous story reminds me of the type of thing they warn monks in Athos about in prayer 101 class. It is a terrible sin to say somebody will not inherit on the fly like you just did.


Earthly things have little interest for me.  I have died to the world and live for him…. Farewell desert, my friend … and  farewell  exile, my mother, who after my death shall keep my body until the resurection… as for Nestorius-let him be anathema… And would God that all men by anathematizing me might attain to reconciliation with God….


- Nestorius, The Bazaar of Heracleides



 I hope you can be reconciled with God and cease your blasphemy of damning others with false sacraments.
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« Reply #216 on: April 08, 2011, 09:07:39 AM »

So it is not an issue that St. Isaac the Syrian died outside of the Orthodox Church?

In a life of Elder Paisios (it is in Greek but I’m not sure if it is in English), it is related that a Roman Catholic visited Fr. Paisios and informed him that St. Isaac was Nestorian.  Fr. Paisios prayed about this because St. Isaac is much loved and regarded among monastics.  In response to his prayers, St. Isaac appeared to Fr. Paisios and said “Truly I lived around the time of the Nestorians and amidst them, but I fought them very hard. I was not a Nestorian.” Father Paisios was so moved that he named his closest disciple Fr. Isaac, and he always celebrated the feast of St. Isaac the Syrian with an all-night vigil.

I realize this information will make little difference to American Milan or the “Elder-haters” on this list, and I’m sure there are other authoritative texts that can be cited on the matter, but I offer this for lack of time to look into the question more deeply.  If St. Isaac was indeed anti-Nestorian, a fighter of Nestorianism, and fully Orthodox while in communion with Nestorians, hopefully those in the American Milan will exercise more hesitation before mocking and condemning so unequivocally those who “fight from within”. 

As a side note, it is interesting that Holy Transfiguration Monastery in HOCNA has removed from its Church Calendar a saint who was in communion with the Church because of some of his errors (St. Augustine), while at the same time they glorify and highly esteem a saint who was in communion with heretics (as it seems) and yet was Orthodox in his teaching (St. Isaac). 

The following words are also of value on the matter, and worthy of consideration:

Quote
Though St Isaac is often referred to without any qualification as a ‘Nestorian’, the renowned translator of the Homilies, Dana Miller, argues that the characterisation of the 7th-c. Persian Church as ‘Nestorian’ is a gross oversimplification, and that, at any rate, St Isaac’s ‘confession of our Lord’s incarnation is entirely orthodox’. Fr Placide notes that ‘there is no trace of Nestorianism in his writings’, and that ‘Unlike the writings of Evagrius of Pontus, Isaac’s work did not have to be expurgated.’ Thus, his example is certainly no evidence that a heretic can be venerated as a Saint in the Orthodox Church, but rather an illustration of the Church’s great latitude and pastoral condescension when it comes to the complexities of schism and heresy when they are still in the process of hardening.

http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/2010/02/o-revealer-of-unfathomable-mysteriesst.html
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« Reply #217 on: April 08, 2011, 09:32:59 AM »

I repeat:
His theology may have been Orthodox but St. Isaac the Syrian was never a member of the Orthodox Church. A particular Lutheran's theology may be Orthodox, but if he is not received into the Orthodox Church (like St. Isaac the Syrian), does he go to hell?
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« Reply #218 on: April 08, 2011, 09:37:49 AM »



Folks,

The next near ad hominem that gets thrown around in here will:

a) be cause for official warning dot (this post is your unofficial one)

and

b) lock this thread.

For the rest of this thread, ad hominem also constitutes saying things like, "Well, you're a heretic!" and "Yeah, well, you're a vagante!".  The ecclesial communion of the participants is quite apparent and out in the open.  Repeating it as an argument will not be tolerated.

Thank you.
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« Reply #219 on: April 15, 2011, 04:45:06 PM »

I just read the following, somewhat hard to understand info from the http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Synod_of_Milan article on the Milan Synod:

On February 14/27, 2011, the Synod announced that it had granted full autonomy to its American Dioceses, elevating Archbishop JOHN of New York to the rank of Metropolitan and erecting the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles.

Communion between the Autonomous Metropolia of the Americas and the British Isles and the Milan Synod ceased effectively April 4, 2011. The Milan Synod was required by Patriarch Kyril to cease communion with any previous sister churches. The American Metropolia responded by confirming the cessation.


Now, Why would the Milan Synod grant autonomy to their North American diocese and then break communion with them in the space of a few short months, and if the autonomous Church of North America and the British Isles is no longer in communion with their mother Synod then who are they autonomously under?

Robb, you need to follow the posting rules as laid out (meaning you need to link to the source of your quote, at all times):  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg186146.html#msg186146

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« Reply #220 on: April 15, 2011, 05:13:35 PM »

I don't have an answer, but all I can say is welcome to the wonderful world of trying to understand schism, Robb!
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« Reply #221 on: April 15, 2011, 05:42:59 PM »

Don't worry, they'll be autocephalous within a year, and then all these problems will be resolved. Smiley
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« Reply #222 on: April 16, 2011, 03:46:43 AM »

I've often wondered the same thing vis-a-vis the Milan Synod itself. I think "autonomy" has taken on a new meaning since the fall of the world Orthodox Churches into heresy ;-).
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« Reply #223 on: April 16, 2011, 05:35:48 AM »


Now, Why would the Milan Synod grant autonomy to their North American diocese and then break communion with them in the space of a few short months,


Because the desire of the European bishops of the Milan Synod is to come into union with the Church of Russia and to this end a dialogue has already begun.

The American section of the Milan Synod, now reconstituted as the Metropolia of the Americas and the British Isles, is vehemently against this union.  Ironically a total of 6 of its American priests have actually transferred to the Russian Church Abroad and a further 3 are in process.  I do not know how many priests this leaves in the American segment but it would seem that the Church of Russia is offering many of them a new spiritual home and they wish to follow the same path to Moscow as their European bishops and brothers..

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« Reply #224 on: April 19, 2011, 03:49:13 PM »

I just read the following, somewhat hard to understand info from the http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Synod_of_Milan article on the Milan Synod:

On February 14/27, 2011, the Synod announced that it had granted full autonomy to its American Dioceses, elevating Archbishop JOHN of New York to the rank of Metropolitan and erecting the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles.

Communion between the Autonomous Metropolia of the Americas and the British Isles and the Milan Synod ceased effectively April 4, 2011. The Milan Synod was required by Patriarch Kyril to cease communion with any previous sister churches. The American Metropolia responded by confirming the cessation.


Now, Why would the Milan Synod grant autonomy to their North American diocese and then break communion with them in the space of a few short months, and if the autonomous Church of North America and the British Isles is no longer in communion with their mother Synod then who are they autonomously under?

Well, considering this mess is two weeks old I think people watching are expecting a lot from us! Let's see if I can help clarify this situation. (Probably not, because any answers we give are colored by the personal perceptions of others.)

This is likely a "clean break" situation as existed in 1990 when the Portuguese Bishops left for the official Polish Church to pursue their ecumenical goals. However, at that time, there were already Bishops in sees that were originally independent within the Metropolia of Western Europe, so it was a simple matter of the remaining Bishops electing their head. 

However, this was a more complex situation for a few reasons. Technically, the Americas were always a dependency of Western Europe, and it had been determined as far back as late last year that the Americas were going to be administratively free of Milan's intervention already, and were going to act as a daughter Church.

We discovered after the designation that a dialogue with the MP's Moldovan branch with a view to full recognition had begun after the feast of the Nativity, Archbishop Abundius of Lecco being the primary participant. (As I understand it, Abp Abundius was not present in Milan during Metropolitan John's visit-- he signalled his agreement remotely-- and thus no such information was mentioned while Vl John was there.) Assuming this was some sort of misunderstanding or misinterpretation, further clarification indicated that this union/absorption was well on its way to becoming a reality.

At that point, many of the clergy determined that as there was not yet a union, there was no reason for a break in communion until that occurred. Others called for a formal break in communion. A small -- but vocal- minority, supported by people in the ROCOR-MP, determined that they wanted to enter into union with the Moscow Patriarchate. Invariably, however, we discovered them after the fact, since they are being encouraged to act clandestinely to maximize the potential effects of a schism, which frankly have been extremely small (all defectors who left for the MP left alone, with no followers.)

In the end, though, there was really no need for us to do anything. Abp Abundius declared that the Milan Synod had broken communion with ALL the Old Calendar Synods not in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. Well, since we are not in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, that included us.

The thornier question, is of course: what of us, then? Well, that's not so much up to us as it is to Milan. At this point we are simply watching the process, and we retain communion with all our sister Churches. We know that this sudden change of course is a shock for many in Europe as well, so the prudent course of action is to wait and see how this pans out. Of course, there have been dialogues in the past with World Orthodoxy which failed for this or that reason. If this fails, we will probably simply take some initiative in restoring our communion if they don't.

If through some bizzare circumstance union is effected, then we have a moral responsibility to take certain actions which I am not at liberty to discuss, but can be easily divined through a cursory reading of Church history during periods of schism.
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