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Author Topic: Things you miss as a former Protestant  (Read 13563 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #270 on: January 24, 2012, 12:02:25 PM »

This is again part of what I don't miss about Protestantism, which brought me to Orthodoxy, too many sincere but conflicted views held by very intelligent, well studied, men all based on the same Bible.

This is, in fact, the beginning of my journey to Orthodoxy. How intelligent, devout, God-loving people of faith could earnestly study the Scriptures and come up with totally different (and often diametrically opposed) interpretations (not just about details, but about major issues) exposed the contradictions and limitations of Protestant theology. It's all opinions - one person's no better or "more correct" than any other's.
My question was, then how do you know?

Agreed. Definitely dont miss this.  Wayyyyy to messy!  Ive even worked with churches where the "high school pastor" may believe and teach differently than the "head pastor."  As long as it sounds nice, everyone will go along with it. 
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« Reply #271 on: January 24, 2012, 12:26:24 PM »

As was said before, the ideas espoused are formulated first, then proof text is found to back it up.

PP
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« Reply #272 on: January 26, 2012, 12:24:22 AM »

Tangent on "How do you know?" split off and moved here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19312.msg698974.html#msg698974
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« Reply #273 on: January 26, 2012, 04:14:10 AM »

the ideas espoused are formulated first, then proof text is found to back it up.

Sadly, this is (I suspect) sometimes true, but I do not believe it gives a full and just picture of how all Evangelicals have arrived at their beliefs. And I also suspect that there are a lot of what one might call 'simple believers' for whom a more searching, wide-ranging and penetrating cogitation on theological questions would be out of their range. They do not have that sort of mind.

On the other hand, I also suspect that there are plenty of Orthodox of whom the same is true, mutatis mutandis: they "espouse" the idea that the Orthodox Church is the only true church, and - finding security in that - they find "proof texts" or proof historical or traditional confirmations.

I do not think our constituencies are essentially that different in this way.
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« Reply #274 on: January 26, 2012, 05:42:02 AM »

the ideas espoused are formulated first, then proof text is found to back it up.

Sadly, this is (I suspect) sometimes true, but I do not believe it gives a full and just picture of how all Evangelicals have arrived at their beliefs. And I also suspect that there are a lot of what one might call 'simple believers' for whom a more searching, wide-ranging and penetrating cogitation on theological questions would be out of their range. They do not have that sort of mind.

On the other hand, I also suspect that there are plenty of Orthodox of whom the same is true, mutatis mutandis: they "espouse" the idea that the Orthodox Church is the only true church, and - finding security in that - they find "proof texts" or proof historical or traditional confirmations.

I do not think our constituencies are essentially that different in this way.

I do believe that's what is termed by one poster here as 'patristic quote mining' and like you, i also think it's more to do with type of person rather than it being a purely Protestant trait.

I'm hoping PP will change the track eventually as this one's got a bit tedious.
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« Reply #275 on: January 26, 2012, 11:01:15 AM »

the ideas espoused are formulated first, then proof text is found to back it up.

Sadly, this is (I suspect) sometimes true, but I do not believe it gives a full and just picture of how all Evangelicals have arrived at their beliefs. And I also suspect that there are a lot of what one might call 'simple believers' for whom a more searching, wide-ranging and penetrating cogitation on theological questions would be out of their range. They do not have that sort of mind.

On the other hand, I also suspect that there are plenty of Orthodox of whom the same is true, mutatis mutandis: they "espouse" the idea that the Orthodox Church is the only true church, and - finding security in that - they find "proof texts" or proof historical or traditional confirmations.

I do not think our constituencies are essentially that different in this way.

I cannot relate with this. I spent many an hour attempting to discern the mind of the church fathers and of the scriptures, and the only reasonable answer I could come up with is Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #276 on: January 26, 2012, 12:00:29 PM »

the ideas espoused are formulated first, then proof text is found to back it up.

Sadly, this is (I suspect) sometimes true, but I do not believe it gives a full and just picture of how all Evangelicals have arrived at their beliefs. And I also suspect that there are a lot of what one might call 'simple believers' for whom a more searching, wide-ranging and penetrating cogitation on theological questions would be out of their range. They do not have that sort of mind.

On the other hand, I also suspect that there are plenty of Orthodox of whom the same is true, mutatis mutandis: they "espouse" the idea that the Orthodox Church is the only true church, and - finding security in that - they find "proof texts" or proof historical or traditional confirmations.

I do not think our constituencies are essentially that different in this way.

I cannot relate with this. I spent many an hour attempting to discern the mind of the church fathers and of the scriptures, and the only reasonable answer I could come up with is Orthodoxy.


There is a difference between proof-texting and quote-mining and discerning the borader picture of what Christianity has historically believed, practiced and taught. When I learned what the early Church taught, what it looked like, if you will, I had a choice: to turn my back and cling to my own pet theories and interpretations or to choose truth.
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« Reply #277 on: January 26, 2012, 12:16:53 PM »

The reason proof texts are used is because folks can not use history to validate their claims.

PP
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« Reply #278 on: January 26, 2012, 03:05:06 PM »

The reason proof texts are used is because folks can not use history to validate their claims.

PP

#yawns
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« Reply #279 on: January 26, 2012, 03:22:35 PM »

The reason proof texts are used is because folks can not use history to validate their claims.

PP

#yawns
When you're done yawning you can prove me wrong by showing historical basis for sola imagination.

PP
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« Reply #280 on: January 27, 2012, 07:08:58 AM »

The reason proof texts are used is because folks can not use history to validate their claims.

PP

#yawns
When you're done yawning you can prove me wrong by showing historical basis for sola imagination.

PP

Oh you even have one of your pet topics ready for your well-worn rhetoric.

Who is the 'Protestant' you're aiming this at? Because you seem to churn out the same rubbish for anyone you think fits your imaginary stereotype.
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« Reply #281 on: January 27, 2012, 07:19:34 AM »

the ideas espoused are formulated first, then proof text is found to back it up.

Sadly, this is (I suspect) sometimes true, but I do not believe it gives a full and just picture of how all Evangelicals have arrived at their beliefs. And I also suspect that there are a lot of what one might call 'simple believers' for whom a more searching, wide-ranging and penetrating cogitation on theological questions would be out of their range. They do not have that sort of mind.

On the other hand, I also suspect that there are plenty of Orthodox of whom the same is true, mutatis mutandis: they "espouse" the idea that the Orthodox Church is the only true church, and - finding security in that - they find "proof texts" or proof historical or traditional confirmations.

I do not think our constituencies are essentially that different in this way.

I cannot relate with this. I spent many an hour attempting to discern the mind of the church fathers and of the scriptures, and the only reasonable answer I could come up with is Orthodoxy.

Indeed- God brought me to a "True Church" understanding kicking and screaming. It was the last thing I wanted to believe.
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« Reply #282 on: January 27, 2012, 12:48:05 PM »

The reason proof texts are used is because folks can not use history to validate their claims.

PP

#yawns
When you're done yawning you can prove me wrong by showing historical basis for sola imagination.

PP

Oh you even have one of your pet topics ready for your well-worn rhetoric.

Who is the 'Protestant' you're aiming this at? Because you seem to churn out the same rubbish for anyone you think fits your imaginary stereotype.
Rather than dismiss it as rubbish, would you care to put in the effort to refute its content?
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« Reply #283 on: January 27, 2012, 12:54:21 PM »

Quote
Oh you even have one of your pet topics ready for your well-worn rhetoric.

Who is the 'Protestant' you're aiming this at? Because you seem to churn out the same rubbish for anyone you think fits your imaginary stereotype
Translation - I cant refute it.

By the way, its not an imaginary stereotype ok? Not only was I protestant, I was a protestant missionary proseletyzing Orthodox in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic, and Russia to be exact) . I was trained to refute Orthodoxy and instead, came to it. So dont act like Im some moron that spouts crap out. I was on the other side of the coin and realized it was wrong. That this buffet christianity was wrong and has, not only no basis in history or scripture, but no basis in logic.

PP
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« Reply #284 on: January 27, 2012, 02:20:33 PM »

Quote
Oh you even have one of your pet topics ready for your well-worn rhetoric.

Who is the 'Protestant' you're aiming this at? Because you seem to churn out the same rubbish for anyone you think fits your imaginary stereotype
Translation - I cant refute it.

By the way, its not an imaginary stereotype ok? Not only was I protestant, I was a protestant missionary proseletyzing Orthodox in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic, and Russia to be exact) . I was trained to refute Orthodoxy and instead, came to it. So dont act like Im some moron that spouts crap out. I was on the other side of the coin and realized it was wrong. That this buffet christianity was wrong and has, not only no basis in history or scripture, but no basis in logic.

PP

Yes and now you repeatedly bring up your generalised comments no matter who it is that you encounter as long as you think they are 'Protestant' they must believe what you did, right?

Man! That straw must be uncomfortable.
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« Reply #285 on: January 27, 2012, 02:26:43 PM »

Quote
Oh you even have one of your pet topics ready for your well-worn rhetoric.

Who is the 'Protestant' you're aiming this at? Because you seem to churn out the same rubbish for anyone you think fits your imaginary stereotype
Translation - I cant refute it.

By the way, its not an imaginary stereotype ok? Not only was I protestant, I was a protestant missionary proseletyzing Orthodox in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic, and Russia to be exact) . I was trained to refute Orthodoxy and instead, came to it. So dont act like Im some moron that spouts crap out. I was on the other side of the coin and realized it was wrong. That this buffet christianity was wrong and has, not only no basis in history or scripture, but no basis in logic.

PP

Yes and now you repeatedly bring up your generalised comments no matter who it is that you encounter as long as you think they are 'Protestant' they must believe what you did, right?

Man! That straw must be uncomfortable.
I haven't set up a straw man, and you have not refuted my claims, despite trying to redirect them.

PP
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« Reply #286 on: January 27, 2012, 02:36:56 PM »

As was said before, the ideas espoused are formulated first, then proof text is found to back it up.

PP

What this?!

I have in several threads that you've brought this up.

People do this in many faiths it's not just in Protestantism and not all Protestants do this.

I believe David also made this point too but you're just stuck in your groove.
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« Reply #287 on: January 27, 2012, 02:47:11 PM »

Quote
I have in several threads that you've brought this up.
and?

Quote
people do this in many faiths it's not just in Protestantism
true

Quote
Protestants do this
Nope, but the people that teach these folks do. So, by proxy, yes they do. That is the core of protestantism, self-interpretation.

Again, I ask you to refute what I said. So I've pointed it out before. So what?

Quote
Oh you even have one of your pet topics ready for your well-worn rhetoric
you've used things like that before as well (I believe in response to Isa). So what? Instead of crying about using something before, I directly responded to it. You STILL have yet to do it, because you can't. Redirect all you want, and throw punches in the dark all you want. You will not refute it because you can't.

Now, per your request, I will change tracks and stop.

PP
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« Reply #288 on: January 27, 2012, 02:58:54 PM »

Once more with feeling then.

post#271
Quote
As was said before, the ideas espoused are formulated first, then proof text is found to back it up.

PP

Not all Protestants do this.

More specifically just for clarity's sake

I don't do this.

post#277
Quote
The reason proof texts are used is because folks can not use history to validate their claims.

PP
I don't do this ergo there's nothing for me to refute.

Quote
Now, per your request, I will change tracks and stop.

PP

Phew thanks.
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« Reply #289 on: January 30, 2012, 04:30:52 AM »

makes me wonder why such a thread would be placed in Orthodox-Protestant discussion, when it is asking input from those who were former protestants...
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« Reply #290 on: January 30, 2012, 05:45:13 AM »

I was a protestant missionary proseletyzing Orthodox in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic, and Russia to be exact) . I was trained to refute Orthodoxy and instead, came to it. ...  I was on the other side of the coin and realized it was wrong.

How would you now assess and describe your spiritual state, your relationship with God (or lack of it), when you were doing what I have attempted to do in Albania? Were you really saved at that time, born again, a child of God, forgiven and accepted in the Beloved? What difference has Orthodoxy made, not to your system of dogmas, but to your status before God, you personal relationship with him?
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« Reply #291 on: January 30, 2012, 10:11:48 AM »

makes me wonder why such a thread would be placed in Orthodox-Protestant discussion, when it is asking input from those who were former protestants...
Because many Catholics are former Protestants? Wink
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« Reply #292 on: January 30, 2012, 11:00:25 AM »

I was a protestant missionary proseletyzing Orthodox in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic, and Russia to be exact) . I was trained to refute Orthodoxy and instead, came to it. ...  I was on the other side of the coin and realized it was wrong.

How would you now assess and describe your spiritual state, your relationship with God (or lack of it), when you were doing what I have attempted to do in Albania? Were you really saved at that time, born again, a child of God, forgiven and accepted in the Beloved? What difference has Orthodoxy made, not to your system of dogmas, but to your status before God, you personal relationship with him?
I will answer this though I have to take the missionary aspect from the equation:

The problem with answering your question about being saved, born again, forgiven and accepted into the Beloved is that we approach salvation from an ontologically different perspective, that of theosis vs. your evangelical piety. (I don't hold that against you, even if some posters may.)... But to be less roudabout, when I thought like in a manner similar to how you do I felt in some way that yes, that was true.

In regard to my relationship to God, however, I do feel like Orthodoxy has helped me tremendously. My entire Christian walk I have struggled with some aspects of the faith, but the Church has made that struggle considerably easier.

Perhaps this is not what you are looking for, but it is what I have.
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« Reply #293 on: January 30, 2012, 11:09:04 AM »

Quote
How would you now assess and describe your spiritual state, your relationship with God (or lack of it),
I thought I was doing the right thing at the time, because I was taught that Orthodox and RC's were not Christians. The more I learned, the more wrong that teaching was.

Quote
Were you really saved at that time, born again, a child of God, forgiven and accepted in the Beloved?
Being saved is an ongoing thing until death, a child of God? Yes, forgiven and accepted? I dunno.

I believe that I am held accountable for what I know, not what I dont. I am far more accountable than I was then.

Quote
What difference has Orthodoxy made, not to your system of dogmas, but to your status before God, you personal relationship with him?
I am closer to God than I ever was. I constantly doubted "that I was saved" and all that...if I meant it and if it was enough. Orthodoxy for me, has really brought me to where God is not some far off being that I must satisfy with some spin of legalistic mumbo-jumbo, and those that have gone before me are just sitting around doing nothing. It is a living community, full of saints rooting for me, and going before God for my benefit. I realized that the Christian life is not just a one-shot fire insurance decision, but a living faith that I will grow in for all time, on this side of the curtain and the other.

For me, there is no turning back; praise be to God.

PP
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« Reply #294 on: January 30, 2012, 11:38:38 AM »

I realized that the Christian life is not just a one-shot fire insurance decision, but a living faith that I will grow in for all time, on this side of the curtain and the other.

I keep coming across this on this Forum, and I am mystified by it, for it is not something we are taught in English Evangelical churches, whether Arminian, Calvinist or Pentecostal - and I have spent years among all of those. We are always taught that a genuine profession of faith will lead to a changed life and to progress in sanctification and Christlikeness. Slogans like "saved to serve" are bandied about. (There will, of course, be times when people, sadly, backslide, and it is true that "he who fain who serve thee best / Is conscious most of wrong within.") I wonder whether this feature of some sectors of Evangelicalism is more of an American phenomenon than a British one? Which would also mean, of course, that you good people are not arguing against Evangelicalism as such when you target it, but about one national form of Evangelicalism, as you have experienced it in one particular place and age. Just a thought: I have never been to the States.
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« Reply #295 on: January 30, 2012, 12:16:14 PM »

I realized that the Christian life is not just a one-shot fire insurance decision, but a living faith that I will grow in for all time, on this side of the curtain and the other.

I keep coming across this on this Forum, and I am mystified by it, for it is not something we are taught in English Evangelical churches, whether Arminian, Calvinist or Pentecostal - and I have spent years among all of those. We are always taught that a genuine profession of faith will lead to a changed life and to progress in sanctification and Christlikeness. Slogans like "saved to serve" are bandied about. (There will, of course, be times when people, sadly, backslide, and it is true that "he who fain who serve thee best / Is conscious most of wrong within.") I wonder whether this feature of some sectors of Evangelicalism is more of an American phenomenon than a British one? Which would also mean, of course, that you good people are not arguing against Evangelicalism as such when you target it, but about one national form of Evangelicalism, as you have experienced it in one particular place and age. Just a thought: I have never been to the States.
let me explain some. I apologize, I forgot you're across the pond Smiley

In many churches in America especially in the South where I reside, there is a teaching that really permeates the Christian life that goes into 2 points:

1. Personal savior. Basically, by a singular decision, and meaning it, you ask Jesus into your heart and to be your personal savior (the wording of such prayer is different for every church, but the wording isnt totally important as long as you hit certian points) and salvation is guaranteed. At that moment, you are "saved".

2. OSAS, or Once Saved, Always Saved. Its taken from a proof text in John about "Nobody can take you out of my father's hand". basically, once saved, as long as you meant it when you asked, you can not lose your salvation, no matter what.

So basically, that is it. There are some differences such as "If you dont do good deeds, then you really didnt mean it when you asked Jesus into your heart". But even that is a minority view. So when I or others speak of "fire-insurance", that is usually what we speak of.

This is a view losing popularity, but still prevalent, that anyone...and I mean ANYONE who does not follow the aforementioned "path to salvation" is not a Christian. Period.

PP
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« Reply #296 on: January 30, 2012, 12:29:17 PM »

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author=primuspilus link=topic=40053.msg702185#msg702185 2 points:

1. Personal savior. Basically, by a singular decision, and meaning it, you ask Jesus into your heart and to be your personal savior (the wording of such prayer is different for every church, but the wording isnt totally important as long as you hit certian points) and salvation is guaranteed. At that moment, you are "saved".

2. OSAS, or Once Saved, Always Saved. Its taken from a proof text in John about "Nobody can take you out of my father's hand". basically, once saved, as long as you meant it when you asked, you can not lose your salvation, no matter what.

I think that is what is usually dismissed as "easy-believism".
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« Reply #297 on: January 30, 2012, 12:29:47 PM »

PP,

Im also from the South and what you pointed out is spot on.  Maybe you can relate to this...

"With every head bowed, and every eye closed, no one looking around, raise your hand if you have never accepted Jesus into your heart.... Alright... now, repeat this prayer after me....." You know the rest.  

Ive never been to the UK, but it sounds like the Baptist churches there are a little different than here.
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« Reply #298 on: January 30, 2012, 12:30:57 PM »


1. Personal savior. Basically, by a singular decision, and meaning it, you ask Jesus into your heart and to be your personal savior (the wording of such prayer is different for every church, but the wording isnt totally important as long as you hit certian points) and salvation is guaranteed. At that moment, you are "saved".

2. OSAS, or Once Saved, Always Saved. Its taken from a proof text in John about "Nobody can take you out of my father's hand". basically, once saved, as long as you meant it when you asked, you can not lose your salvation, no matter what.

So basically, that is it. There are some differences such as "If you dont do good deeds, then you really didnt mean it when you asked Jesus into your heart". But even that is a minority view. So when I or others speak of "fire-insurance", that is usually what we speak of.

This is a view losing popularity, but still prevalent, that anyone...and I mean ANYONE who does not follow the aforementioned "path to salvation" is not a Christian. Period.

PP
Don't forget the part that "personal Saviour" often (usually?) means "personally and privately my Saviour" as epitomized in the tear-jerker hymn (though it really isn't a hymn - it's all about "me"):  "I come to the garden alone ... And He walks with me, and He talks with me, And He tells me I am His own; And the joy we share as we tarry there, None other has ever known." This sentiment easily ends up creating Jesus in my image and as I long as I get warm, fuzzy feelings, it must be Jesus.
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« Reply #299 on: January 30, 2012, 12:34:51 PM »

"With every head bowed, and every eye closed, no one looking around, raise your hand if you have never accepted Jesus into your heart.... Alright... now, repeat this prayer after me....."

I have come across that, but only (I think) in Pentecostal churches, and not for some 40 years. I cannot, of course, say that it doesn't go on anywhere at all now. But even response to that kind of invitation would not, as far as I am aware, have been viewed as betokening in itself a genuine new birth, becoming "a new creation" in Christ: if such a new birth had really happened (and I have no doubt it did within that context for many people) it was only their first step in what should have led to a life-time's growth in grace.
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« Reply #300 on: January 30, 2012, 12:39:54 PM »

Don't forget the part that "personal Saviour" often (usually?) means "personally and privately my Saviour"

Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. I would rather take it to mean that Christ died in general for all men, but in saving me he has now applied the redeeming work of the Cross individually ('personally') to me - as well as to countless other believers one by one; or, looking at it the other way round, in asking him to save me and placing my trust for that in him, I have made what is true in general into something personal in me as well.

(Maybe that is what you meant anyway by 'privately'?)
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« Reply #301 on: January 30, 2012, 12:40:28 PM »

"With every head bowed, and every eye closed, no one looking around, raise your hand if you have never accepted Jesus into your heart.... Alright... now, repeat this prayer after me....."

I have come across that, but only (I think) in Pentecostal churches, and not for some 40 years. I cannot, of course, say that it doesn't go on anywhere at all now. But even response to that kind of invitation would not, as far as I am aware, have been viewed as betokening in itself a genuine new birth, becoming "a new creation" in Christ: if such a new birth had really happened (and I have no doubt it did within that context for many people) it was only their first step in what should have led to a life-time's growth in grace.

I agree it can be a first step.  This is why I have a hard time dismissing the protestant church altogether.  I do believe what I have found in Orthodoxy, but I guess I still think that being involved in the scenario mentioned above is certainly better than nothing.  If someone dedicates their life to Christ, and begins to live their lives differently, then good for them.  Therefore, I dont necessarily see that as a bad thing.  Its just a little funny because thats just the way its done around here, especially among the youth.  I guess I somewhat see a place for the more "culturally relevant" evangelical style services, but I dont think those types of services should replace the traditional Eucharistic liturgies.  
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« Reply #302 on: January 30, 2012, 12:56:00 PM »

"With every head bowed, and every eye closed, no one looking around, raise your hand if you have never accepted Jesus into your heart.... Alright... now, repeat this prayer after me....."

I have come across that, but only (I think) in Pentecostal churches, and not for some 40 years. I cannot, of course, say that it doesn't go on anywhere at all now. But even response to that kind of invitation would not, as far as I am aware, have been viewed as betokening in itself a genuine new birth, becoming "a new creation" in Christ: if such a new birth had really happened (and I have no doubt it did within that context for many people) it was only their first step in what should have led to a life-time's growth in grace.
Timon's quote is 100% accurate. It is hugely popular here in the States. This is the prevalent method of "salvation" with evangelical, born again Christians in the states.

Quote
Life-time's growth in grace
This is good, but in said denominations, it is not necessary for salvation whatsoever.

PP
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« Reply #303 on: January 30, 2012, 03:10:08 PM »

timon,
i seen that a lot in the uk. and in baptist churches (and evangelical and pentecostal and charismatic - i have had a very wide experience, covering many towns and cities!).
david young,
i think your church is very special, or maybe it's the welsh churches that are special. i've only been to church a few times in wales; my experience is nearly all in england.
or maybe u are secretly orthodox...
 Wink
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« Reply #304 on: January 30, 2012, 03:18:16 PM »

Don't forget the part that "personal Saviour" often (usually?) means "personally and privately my Saviour"

Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. I would rather take it to mean that Christ died in general for all men, but in saving me he has now applied the redeeming work of the Cross individually ('personally') to me - as well as to countless other believers one by one; or, looking at it the other way round, in asking him to save me and placing my trust for that in him, I have made what is true in general into something personal in me as well.

(Maybe that is what you meant anyway by 'privately'?)
David, I was responding to primuspilus' mention of the term "personal saviour" by adding the working definition of the average Evangelical around here. (Canadian Evangelicals are highly influenced by their US counterparts; usually a more subdued patriotism, but popular theology is pretty much the same.) I have often heard quite bluntly "Jesus and me - that's all that matters." There is no sense of historical continuity or even a necessary connection between Christians.

Your understanding of the word "personal" seems quite right to me - that the relationship between Jesus and the believer is that between two persons. I believe that Facebook has captured (and not created) the common cultural understanding of "friend" and all that that implies - which is what has led to its success.

Yes, there are thoughtful Evangelicals - and certainly most denominations will define these matters carefully, but the common thinking (or lack thereof) is otherwise. I've seen Jesus "friended" and "unfriended" with ease.
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« Reply #305 on: January 30, 2012, 03:25:13 PM »

I also think that David, your church is special because evangelical churches that I have been to in 7 different countries specify that path of salvation....of course they were all planted by Americans.  You're an Orthodox spy arent you? Are you sent by some bishop to check up on us oc.net'ers?  laugh laugh

PP
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« Reply #306 on: January 30, 2012, 03:31:39 PM »

makes me wonder why such a thread would be placed in Orthodox-Protestant discussion, when it is asking input from those who were former protestants...
Because many Catholics are former Protestants? Wink

hmm i'm still confused... Tongue
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« Reply #307 on: January 30, 2012, 03:33:24 PM »

I also think that David, your church is special because evangelical churches that I have been to in 7 different countries specify that path of salvation....of course they were all planted by Americans.  You're an Orthodox spy arent you? Are you sent by some bishop to check up on us oc.net'ers?  laugh laugh

PP

hahaha....yes! It all makes sense now!

*Ortho_cat puts spotlight on David and goes into badcop routine* "Ok now, David...tell us who your bishop is and why he sent you...we can play this game all day!"
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« Reply #308 on: January 30, 2012, 05:16:24 PM »

"Ok now, David...tell us who your bishop is and why he sent you!"

Will this one do?  Wink
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« Reply #309 on: January 30, 2012, 05:23:22 PM »

"Ok now, David...tell us who your bishop is and why he sent you!"

Will this one do?  Wink
Ah, so quick to out your handlers?!?!?!? traitor!!!!!!!

I can respect that...... laugh

PP
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« Reply #310 on: January 30, 2012, 05:29:16 PM »

"Ok now, David...tell us who your bishop is and why he sent you!"

Will this one do?  Wink

What was notable to me (on a more serious note) was the respect shown to the aged bishop by the man in the brownish coat, who is an Albanian Evangelical pastor in Kosova, in view of the deep hatred that has existed between Albanians and Serbs (= Orthodox) in that tear-drenched land. That, surely, is grace.
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« Reply #311 on: January 31, 2012, 04:30:26 AM »

the tear-jerker hymn (though it really isn't a hymn - it's all about "me"):  "I come to the garden alone ... And He walks with me, and He talks with me, And He tells me I am His own; And the joy we share as we tarry there, None other has ever known." This sentiment easily ends up creating Jesus in my image and as I long as I get warm, fuzzy feelings, it must be Jesus.

Reading the three verses, I cannot see anything in them that an Athonite monk would not be able to sing.

The first two verses are saying that the author (Charles Austin Miles) - and the person who sings the hymn - enjoys times of prayer and communion with the Lord in a garden in the early morning, surpassing the beauty of surrounding nature ("the birds hush their singing"), that he would like to continue throughout the day till nightfall, but "He bids me go: through the voice of woe / His voice to me is calling" - that is, I must go and serve suffering humanity. What's wrong with that?

Also, bear in mind that the song was written as he meditated on the story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene in the garden on the morning of the resurrection. This may cast a happier light upon it for you.

Now I agree that the style of poetry is sentimental, but Austin Miles was born in 1868, into a very sentimental age. Their tastes were not as ours.

I also agree that the song is not suitable for congregational worship, because (a) we (here at least) do not live in a climate where people tend to pray in gardens "while the dew is still on the roses" (though I have prayed in gardens - haven't you?) and (b) even if we did have such a climate, a hymn in church should be true of all its singers, and I doubt that all would rise that early for outdoor prayer.
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« Reply #312 on: January 31, 2012, 10:59:47 AM »

the tear-jerker hymn (though it really isn't a hymn - it's all about "me"):  "I come to the garden alone ... And He walks with me, and He talks with me, And He tells me I am His own; And the joy we share as we tarry there, None other has ever known." This sentiment easily ends up creating Jesus in my image and as I long as I get warm, fuzzy feelings, it must be Jesus.


Also, bear in mind that the song was written as he meditated on the story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene in the garden on the morning of the resurrection. This may cast a happier light upon it for you.

Only slightly for me. But if most Evangelicals I know were aware that they were meditating on the experience of a (gasp!) Saint-so-this-must-be-Catholic, they'd never sing it again  Smiley!
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« Reply #313 on: January 31, 2012, 11:44:24 AM »

I really miss, and think it would be perfectly "OK" for Orthodox Christians to copy, the warm love and open arms of the Methodist churches of my childhood and 20s.
I also really like the Sunday evening fellowships (choir, Bible Study, etc). Our floating vespers at different churches around the city during Lent is fairly close. Wish we could do something like that throughout the year
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« Reply #314 on: February 05, 2012, 07:56:16 PM »

I really miss, and think it would be perfectly "OK" for Orthodox Christians to copy, the warm love and open arms of the Methodist churches of my childhood and 20s.
I also really like the Sunday evening fellowships (choir, Bible Study, etc). Our floating vespers at different churches around the city during Lent is fairly close. Wish we could do something like that throughout the year

While I hold many people of my former Methodist congregation dear to my heart, my experience has been the opposite of yours.  I marvel at the warmth and welcoming attitudes of our Greek Orthodox parish.  Truly, I have never felt so encouraged, loved and accepted.  I *think* that I posted on the thread quite awhile ago that all I struggled with was all of the new and foreign-to-me terminology.  I'm happy to report that I'm beginning to get it sorted out now!  ....thanks to my new Church family, who have been so supportive.
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