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« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2011, 07:53:49 PM » |
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I was never a protestant, but I "miss" people smiling and making eye contact in Church.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2011, 08:08:37 PM » |
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the potlucks?
Otherwise, nothing.
We have them. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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orthonorm
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« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2011, 08:10:55 PM » |
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Also, I miss Sacred Harp singing.
Boom! Although, we did this "outside" of church so to speak. You can still meet up and sing. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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IsmiLiora
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« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2011, 08:15:37 PM » |
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the potlucks?
Otherwise, nothing.
We have them I would also put forward the argument that the Orthodox ones have better food.  |
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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
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I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
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orthonorm
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« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2011, 08:16:43 PM » |
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I was going to say, I love me some Southern cooking, but the Greeks have got it beat!
You are out of you mind. I mean really. Then agan what do you from the south? You don't even eat liver or gizzards. If any real American who grew up eating proper food, says the Greeks got us beat, then you are out to dinner. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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orthonorm
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« Reply #140 on: October 30, 2011, 08:17:31 PM » |
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the potlucks?
Otherwise, nothing.
We have them I would also put forward the argument that the Orthodox ones have better food. I wouldn't. As a follow up to the last post, especially if they are OWers or LARPers. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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IsmiLiora
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« Reply #141 on: October 30, 2011, 08:20:15 PM » |
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Well I am not a "real American" (whatever that means) and I didn't grow up with real American food (didn't have my first taste of mac and cheese until I was 18) so that argument does not include me. And I have been to a couple Southern potlucks as far south as Louisiana and Mississippi, but I hadn't encountered any gizzards. I have to go call them and tell them that they are clearly LARPing. |
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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
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I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
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orthonorm
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« Reply #142 on: October 30, 2011, 08:31:16 PM » |
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Well I am not a "real American" (whatever that means) and I didn't grow up with real American food (didn't have my first taste of mac and cheese until I was 18) so that argument does not include me. And I have been to a couple Southern potlucks as far south as Louisiana and Mississippi, but I hadn't encountered any gizzards. I have to go call them and tell them that they are clearly LARPing. No the LARPing Americans converts bringing in, much less preparing, "ethnic" foods. Bring in some fried chicken, sheesh. Chili. Tamales. Whatever. Fix what you (the general you) ate before making Orthodoxy some sorta trip through an Eastern European / Mediterranean Whole Foods. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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IsmiLiora
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« Reply #143 on: October 30, 2011, 08:34:31 PM » |
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Heh, sorry. You responded to me and so I did in kind.
The mac and cheese is a fun fact, though. People are horrified when I tell them. There are other foods I did not eat at all growing up but I can't remember many of those. Chili, chicken pot pie, open face sandwiches, turkey...
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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
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I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
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orthonorm
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« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2011, 08:41:38 PM » |
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Heh, sorry. You responded to me and so I did in kind.
The mac and cheese is a fun fact, though. People are horrified when I tell them. There are other foods I did not eat at all growing up but I can't remember many of those. Chili, chicken pot pie, open face sandwiches, turkey...
Just saying. Buy a 1000 WCs. Why not? Well maybe not a thousand. Or whatever Filipino dish you ate. Orthodoxy in incar national. It isn't fixed ethnically national or it shouldn't be. What does Orthodoxy look like in America. Heard a Priest say once somewhere, when he saw a black man in parish celebrate Pascha with fried chicken. Exactly. The cultural interchange is nice, but again let's not confuse beets and beans with the Blood and Body of Christ as another Priest says. |
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« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 08:42:17 PM by orthonorm »
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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IsmiLiora
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« Reply #145 on: October 30, 2011, 08:48:44 PM » |
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I agree with that. I just happen to like Greek food. And I think food from any ethnicity should be welcome. We do have a good mix of non-Greek/Greek food at my parish (not fried chicken though  ), but the thing is that we have a lot of local restaurant owners in my church, so the menu is fairly Mediterranean. I don't know how it is at other churches, though. |
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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
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I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
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orthonorm
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« Reply #146 on: October 30, 2011, 09:04:29 PM » |
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I agree with that. I just happen to like Greek food. And I think food from any ethnicity should be welcome. We do have a good mix of non-Greek/Greek food at my parish (not fried chicken though ), but the thing is that we have a lot of local restaurant owners in my church, so the menu is fairly Mediterranean. I don't know how it is at other churches, though. My parish is half a mile away from a WC and a place that does sell livers and gizzards. Maybe I should sign up to provide for the food for one Sunday and surprise everyone. My Priest would kill me. No. Seriously. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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David Leon
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« Reply #147 on: October 30, 2011, 09:29:13 PM » |
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Orthonorm, re. the comment about the man eating fried chicken at Pascha, down here in Mississippi, we bless watermelons on Transfiguration. Only takes one to fill up the table.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #148 on: October 30, 2011, 09:30:53 PM » |
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Orthonorm, re. the comment about the man eating fried chicken at Pascha, down here in Mississippi, we bless watermelons on Transfiguration. Only takes one to fill up the table.
Awesome. OK, now salt or no salt and does a seed spitting contest following afterward? These are need to know questions. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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EXTERMINATE!
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« Reply #149 on: October 30, 2011, 09:34:04 PM » |
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LARP?  |
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David Leon
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« Reply #150 on: October 30, 2011, 09:43:20 PM » |
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No salt, except for the occasional misfit who likes a bit of salt. No seed spitting either, but not a bad idea. Ortho, I do know someone who cracks ice for his bourbon by shooting a block of ice with his pistol. He really only did this to impress visiting friends for up North.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #151 on: October 30, 2011, 09:45:40 PM » |
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No salt, except for the occasional misfit who likes a bit of salt. No seed spitting either, but not a bad idea. Ortho, I do know someone who cracks ice for his bourbon by shooting a block of ice with his pistol. He really only did this to impress visiting friends for up North.
NICE! Give the tourists what they want. Salt here. And when I found out about "seedless" watermelons, I didn't understand the point of the fruit anymore. |
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« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 09:46:20 PM by orthonorm »
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
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« Reply #152 on: October 30, 2011, 09:49:02 PM » |
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LARP? Live Action Role Play Like the Vampire games where everyone dresses up like Lestat or Dracula or D&D complete with Spock ears for elves. |
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« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 09:49:23 PM by FormerReformer »
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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EXTERMINATE!
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« Reply #153 on: October 30, 2011, 11:46:32 PM » |
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No salt, except for the occasional misfit who likes a bit of salt. No seed spitting either, but not a bad idea. Ortho, I do know someone who cracks ice for his bourbon by shooting a block of ice with his pistol. He really only did this to impress visiting friends for up North.
NICE! Give the tourists what they want. Salt here. And when I found out about "seedless" watermelons, I didn't understand the point of the fruit anymore. Yeah, I thought the whole point of eating a watermelon was to see how far you could spit the seeds. |
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peteprint
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« Reply #154 on: October 31, 2011, 12:26:25 AM » |
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I was never a protestant, but I "miss" people smiling and making eye contact in Church.
Funny you should mention this. I make a point of smiling and saying hello to people at my parish. Most respond positively, but some look at me as if what I am doing is strange. One lady I have become friends with tells me that I know more people at the parish than she does, even though she has been going there for over a decade and I have only been a member for less than two years. It's because I make the effort to interact with others, something that seems unusual to most members of the parish. It's reminiscent of being in a courtroom, bus terminal, or other public place with complete strangers.  The norm is that you can be seated with dozens of people and almost none will make eye contact or smile, unless it is someone they personally know. None of the Evangelical churches I grew up in were like that. That is hard to get used to. |
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« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 12:28:58 AM by peteprint »
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No longer posting due to the Pharisaical behavior of a number of posters here who are more concerned with the letter rather than the spirit of the law.
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #155 on: October 31, 2011, 12:45:37 AM » |
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No the LARPing Americans converts bringing in, much less preparing, "ethnic" foods.
Bring in some fried chicken, sheesh. Chili. Tamales. Whatever.
Fix what you (the general you) ate before making Orthodoxy some sorta trip through an Eastern European / Mediterranean Whole Foods. Every communal meal at my church is super vegetarian even on the days when mounds of cheese and meat should abound, and it drives me nuts. So now I always bring a meaty-cheesy all American heart attack platter when I bring food. One of the more ethnic Serbian parishes in town offers some of the finest fried chicken at its feasts, thank God. That place makes a lot of sense to me. A bar in the parish basement and actually good food, along with smokes for those who like. That's how you have a good time, people. Not tepid legumes and hummus and stupid oil to dip everything in. Gross. |
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
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« Reply #156 on: October 31, 2011, 01:06:20 AM » |
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A bar in the parish basement?
Awesome.
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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peteprint
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« Reply #157 on: October 31, 2011, 01:08:16 AM » |
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A bar in the parish basement?
Awesome.
At my Serb parish there is a fully stocked bar in the fellowship hall, and they do serve fried chicken as well.  |
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No longer posting due to the Pharisaical behavior of a number of posters here who are more concerned with the letter rather than the spirit of the law.
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
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And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
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« Reply #158 on: October 31, 2011, 01:12:56 AM » |
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Hmm how are Serbian women?
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #159 on: October 31, 2011, 01:17:49 AM » |
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Hmm how are Serbian women?
Cross-eyed and hairy. |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #160 on: October 31, 2011, 01:18:52 AM » |
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Hmm how are Serbian women?
Cross-eyed and hairy. roffles. |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #161 on: October 31, 2011, 01:22:05 AM » |
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Heh, sorry. You responded to me and so I did in kind.
The mac and cheese is a fun fact, though. People are horrified when I tell them. There are other foods I did not eat at all growing up but I can't remember many of those. Chili, chicken pot pie, open face sandwiches, turkey...
I didn't know humans could live that long without eating turkey!  |
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
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And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
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« Reply #162 on: October 31, 2011, 01:28:20 AM » |
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Hmm how are Serbian women?
Cross-eyed and hairy. roffles. roffle my waffle |
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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William
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« Reply #163 on: October 31, 2011, 08:44:01 PM » |
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I miss the Agnus Dei from my old Catholic Church.
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A beard covers many chins. - Tallitot
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FountainPen
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« Reply #164 on: October 31, 2011, 09:05:33 PM » |
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Right now? Being understood! #laughs
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None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
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Truthseeker194
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« Reply #165 on: November 23, 2011, 02:05:39 AM » |
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As a lifelong protestant in the process of becoming Orthodox the only part of my old Methodist Church are the people... Our pastor was amazing and just a really awsome person... there was this really nice elderly woman I used to sit with when my mom didn't come... they are what I miss... in every other way Orthodoxy is like... like taking the faith I've always had and fleashing it out into something even more beautiful...
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #166 on: November 23, 2011, 02:08:36 AM » |
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I was raised in the RCC. The things I miss the most are genuflections, and the holy water stoups when you walk in. |
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
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ChristusDominus
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Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
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« Reply #167 on: November 23, 2011, 03:04:20 AM » |
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I was raised in the RCC. The things I miss the most are genuflections, and the holy water stoups when you walk in. Where do you find holy water in the church you now attend? |
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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #168 on: November 23, 2011, 03:15:27 AM » |
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There is a large vessel up near the front of the church. I haven't yet asked Father if I can have any. Maybe I'll do that.
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
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peteprint
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« Reply #169 on: November 23, 2011, 03:18:05 AM » |
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We have the same thing in my parish. People (myself included) often fill water bottles and take them home. Father says that some people drink a little each morning at home.
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 03:18:48 AM by peteprint »
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No longer posting due to the Pharisaical behavior of a number of posters here who are more concerned with the letter rather than the spirit of the law.
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Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
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« Reply #170 on: November 23, 2011, 12:35:32 PM » |
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I get nostalgic from time to time for the hymns my mother used to sing to me as a child, but really the only thing I miss is my old friends. Orthodoxy is the path of salvation, and yet it stands as a unspoken gulf between us. I would like nothing better than to go drink Scotch and smoke pipes with my old pastor who lives only a few blocks from us, but we are both too strong in our convictions and it would only end politely but uncomfortably.
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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years. Headscarves cover a multitude of sins.
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That person
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Lex Luthor, seeing the world as Superman does
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« Reply #171 on: November 23, 2011, 07:19:00 PM » |
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Heh, sorry. You responded to me and so I did in kind.
The mac and cheese is a fun fact, though. People are horrified when I tell them. There are other foods I did not eat at all growing up but I can't remember many of those. Chili, chicken pot pie, open face sandwiches, turkey...
One of my church's ministers is in his mid 30s and he's never had a hamburger. He also makes phenomenally good chocolate covered strawberries, even though he doesn't eat them. I guess I'll miss those when I become Orthodox. And Christmas Caroling. I like Christmas Caroling. |
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"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #172 on: November 23, 2011, 10:45:24 PM » |
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I get nostalgic from time to time for the hymns my mother used to sing to me as a child, but really the only thing I miss is my old friends. Orthodoxy is the path of salvation, and yet it stands as a unspoken gulf between us. I would like nothing better than to go drink Scotch and smoke pipes with my old pastor who lives only a few blocks from us, but we are both too strong in our convictions and it would only end politely but uncomfortably.
A Presbyterian I presume?  Selam |
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"Salvation is free, but not easy. It is completely dependent upon the grace of God, and yet we must work it out with fear and trembling. It is given to all, but only a few find it. We are saved only by His Cross, and yet not without taking up our own." +GMK+
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isaelie
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My God is the Lord
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« Reply #173 on: November 23, 2011, 11:20:41 PM » |
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Thumbs up for what mabsoota had to say
God Bless
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My God is the Lord
This I will never understand: How a Christian can justify the crusades or any man going to war, even if he is trying to defend himself or others. Love your enemies - Thou shall not kill - Deliver me from the guilt of bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation
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ChristusDominus
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« Reply #174 on: November 24, 2011, 12:42:55 AM » |
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We have the same thing in my parish. People (myself included) often fill water bottles and take them home. Father says that some people drink a little each morning at home.
Wow, my brother does the same thing. |
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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
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JamesR
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« Reply #175 on: November 25, 2011, 02:59:47 AM » |
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The Apologetics. Do not get me wrong, I love Orthodoxy and I am more than grateful that God pulled me out of the dangerous Protestant Church. But, one thing I will admit is that Protestant Apologetics against atheists and non-Christians is much more developed and greater than Eastern Orthodox Apologetics. In my current situation I constantly have to defend my beliefs against the atheist community, and I have become pretty good at it. But, nearly all of the great apologists and apologetics authors are some type of Protestant. I love how the Protestant Church has formalized Apologetics and are releasing volumes of books refuting every atheistic argument to date. Whereas, in contrast, in the Orthodox Church we really have no great apologists like William Lane Craig, Normal Geisler or John Lennox. In fact, most of our theological attitude does not relate to problems like this. Eastern Orthodox Apologetics is more aimed towards defending our theologic and doctrinal points against other types of heresies, but nothing against atheism or materialism.
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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FountainPen
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« Reply #176 on: November 25, 2011, 01:06:10 PM » |
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Clarity, that's what i miss.
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None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
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Aindriú
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« Reply #177 on: November 25, 2011, 01:11:15 PM » |
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Clarity, that's what i miss.
lol |
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 I'm going to need this. |
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Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
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Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: Forgive us our trespasses.
Posts: 1,253
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« Reply #178 on: November 25, 2011, 09:42:43 PM » |
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I get nostalgic from time to time for the hymns my mother used to sing to me as a child, but really the only thing I miss is my old friends. Orthodoxy is the path of salvation, and yet it stands as a unspoken gulf between us. I would like nothing better than to go drink Scotch and smoke pipes with my old pastor who lives only a few blocks from us, but we are both too strong in our convictions and it would only end politely but uncomfortably.
A Presbyterian I presume? Selam Spot on, my friend. |
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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years. Headscarves cover a multitude of sins.
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
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Faith: Building Steam with a Grain of Salt
Jurisdiction: Just as little is seen in pure light as in pure darkness.
Posts: 9,359
And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
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« Reply #179 on: November 25, 2011, 10:00:51 PM » |
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The Apologetics. Do not get me wrong, I love Orthodoxy and I am more than grateful that God pulled me out of the dangerous Protestant Church. But, one thing I will admit is that Protestant Apologetics against atheists and non-Christians is much more developed and greater than Eastern Orthodox Apologetics. In my current situation I constantly have to defend my beliefs against the atheist community, and I have become pretty good at it. But, nearly all of the great apologists and apologetics authors are some type of Protestant. I love how the Protestant Church has formalized Apologetics and are releasing volumes of books refuting every atheistic argument to date. Whereas, in contrast, in the Orthodox Church we really have no great apologists like William Lane Craig, Normal Geisler or John Lennox. In fact, most of our theological attitude does not relate to problems like this. Eastern Orthodox Apologetics is more aimed towards defending our theologic and doctrinal points against other types of heresies, but nothing against atheism or materialism.
No offense to your apologetics list, but Norman Geisler is a horrible apologist. WLC is great in some areas (like philosophy of time) and worse in other areas. He really is an excellent debator, who thankfully doesn't hide behind the shallow rhetoric someone like Christopher Hitchens does. Alot of his argumentation is sort of "popular" level material, but he can get really in depth on his website. On the whole though I can recommend him. John Lennox seems like a God of the Gaps sort of person, unless I'm classifying him wrong. I recall the Dawkins debate, while even Dawkins exhibiting a poor understanding of Christianity, Lennox resorts back to an emotional response. The Orthodox Church doesn't need apologists in my opinion. The reason I feel that way is because alot of the atheist critcsms against Protestant Christianity gets answered so succintly and refuted so well by Orthodox theology, it's sort of pointless to address them. The only real arguments an atheist can have against the Orthodox Church are some very heady high level thinking, more so along the lines of God's usage of free will with man. Anyway, if you want an Orthodox apologist look up David Bentley Hart's Atheist Delusions: http://www.amazon.com/Atheist-Delusions-Christian-Revolution-Fashionable/dp/0300164297/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322272587&sr=8-1Ignore the 1-star reviews, because Hart really does place a few nails in the new atheism coffin. My main criticsm of the new atheist movement, if you can even call it that, lacks intellectual depth. Dr. Craig talks about this as well, because alot of these atheists want to hold on to fringe theories like the Jesus myth idea and a few others, but not really engaging in deeper philosophical problems and issues. Atheists simply dismiss God as irrelevant and unnecessary, but they never explore as to what the consequences of that is. Which is why a Christian, or a theist, can form the greatest arguments against God because God isn't viewed as "silly" or a belief like Santa Claus, but really get to the heart of the problem of dealing with the existence of God and problems of evil, theodicy, free will, etc. Oh btw you want an outstanding apologist, who isn't Orthodox? Look up Alvin Plantinga. |
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« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 10:02:21 PM by Achronos »
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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