Author Topic: How do protestants deny the church  (Read 488 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mikeforjesus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,090
How do protestants deny the church
« on: April 24, 2015, 05:23:03 AM »
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.



Offline homedad76

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 553
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 08:58:53 AM »
They don't deny the church... they (well most) believe that "the church" is all believers not a formal organization.
"However hard I try, I find it impossible to construct anything greater than these three words, 'Love one another' —only to the end, and without exceptions: then all is justified and life is illumined, whereas otherwise it is an abomination and a burden."

—Mother Maria of Paris

Offline katherineofdixie

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,681
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 09:54:09 AM »
They don't deny the church... they (well most) believe that "the church" is all believers not a formal organization.

Or they believe that "the church" is them, and all the rest of us are apostates or heretics.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,096
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 10:05:35 AM »
They don't deny the church... they (well most) believe that "the church" is all believers not a formal organization.

Or they believe that "the church" is them, and all the rest of us are apostates or heretics.
Or not even Christian.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Partisan Pro-Chalcedonian Fanatic
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,360
  • St. John the Merciful
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 10:10:13 AM »
It seems this topic is answers well enough.

In summary, Protestants either say that Catholic Christians (ergo, Roman, Greek and Coptic alike) are heretics and apostates, or that "the Church" isn't an institution, but it's an abstraction known only to God.

Or, they might say that Catholics are the Church, but that they've been corrupted, the reasoning behind the Protestant Reformation in the first place, which is why the Protestants remain out of communion with it.

More or less.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 10:11:03 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
Not everything I type or have typed in the past is reflective of the teaching of the Orthodox Church, or may not reflect my contemporary views on a subject. (4/6/2015)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

قدوس لله قدوس القوي قدوس الذي لا يموت ارحمنا

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,096
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2015, 10:24:27 AM »
It seems this topic is answers well enough.

In summary, Protestants either say that Catholic Christians (ergo, Roman, Greek and Coptic alike) are heretics and apostates, or that "the Church" isn't an institution, but it's an abstraction known only to God.

Or, they might say that Catholics are the Church, but that they've been corrupted, the reasoning behind the Protestant Reformation in the first place, which is why the Protestants remain out of communion with it.

More or less.
Pretty much. However, I wouldn't say "Protestants" since thats kind of broad. Anglicans have the branch theory, which accepts us and Rome as part of the Body....Evangelical Baptists most certainly do not :)

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Partisan Pro-Chalcedonian Fanatic
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,360
  • St. John the Merciful
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2015, 10:38:22 AM »
It seems this topic is answers well enough.

In summary, Protestants either say that Catholic Christians (ergo, Roman, Greek and Coptic alike) are heretics and apostates, or that "the Church" isn't an institution, but it's an abstraction known only to God.

Or, they might say that Catholics are the Church, but that they've been corrupted, the reasoning behind the Protestant Reformation in the first place, which is why the Protestants remain out of communion with it.

More or less.
Pretty much. However, I wouldn't say "Protestants" since thats kind of broad. Anglicans have the branch theory, which accepts us and Rome as part of the Body....Evangelical Baptists most certainly do not :)

PP

Well, the topic is about "Protestants". Even though that is a broad brush, Unitarian Universalism on the one hand, and Trinitarian Calvinism on the other, that's what the OP is asking about.
Not everything I type or have typed in the past is reflective of the teaching of the Orthodox Church, or may not reflect my contemporary views on a subject. (4/6/2015)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

قدوس لله قدوس القوي قدوس الذي لا يموت ارحمنا

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,096
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2015, 11:10:08 AM »
It seems this topic is answers well enough.

In summary, Protestants either say that Catholic Christians (ergo, Roman, Greek and Coptic alike) are heretics and apostates, or that "the Church" isn't an institution, but it's an abstraction known only to God.

Or, they might say that Catholics are the Church, but that they've been corrupted, the reasoning behind the Protestant Reformation in the first place, which is why the Protestants remain out of communion with it.

More or less.
Pretty much. However, I wouldn't say "Protestants" since thats kind of broad. Anglicans have the branch theory, which accepts us and Rome as part of the Body....Evangelical Baptists most certainly do not :)

PP

Well, the topic is about "Protestants". Even though that is a broad brush, Unitarian Universalism on the one hand, and Trinitarian Calvinism on the other, that's what the OP is asking about.
Yah. I just had to make the obligitory OC.NET statement regarding protestants....its done every day or two  :police:
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Jude1:3

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2015, 06:53:22 PM »
It seems this topic is answers well enough.

In summary, Protestants either say that Catholic Christians (ergo, Roman, Greek and Coptic alike) are heretics and apostates, or that "the Church" isn't an institution, but it's an abstraction known only to God.

Or, they might say that Catholics are the Church, but that they've been corrupted, the reasoning behind the Protestant Reformation in the first place, which is why the Protestants remain out of communion with it.

More or less.
Pretty much. However, I wouldn't say "Protestants" since thats kind of broad. Anglicans have the branch theory, which accepts us and Rome as part of the Body....Evangelical Baptists most certainly do not :)

PP



    I guess I'm in this weird in-between area then because I grew up Baptist, but I still believe Catholics and Orthodox are apart of the Body. 

Offline Nicene

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 625
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2015, 10:59:03 PM »
The church, to them is not seen in a physical or relational connection between people throughout the ages from the apostles, from Jesus, to the current day. That succession for us and the other ancient churches including succession of elders or Bishops, structure and authority as well as the sacraments. Rather it is seen as the adherence to the faith, that matters. It's adhering to the idea, belonging to the invisible body that matters most of all.
Thank you.

Offline mikeforjesus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,090
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2015, 11:30:58 PM »
1 Timothy 4:14 (NKJV)

14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

Being a bishop must be handed down by the elders which are the apostles

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,442
  • Pray for me, a sinner.
    • Blog
  • Faith: Pentecostal Apostate
  • Jurisdiction: Puerto Rican Orthodox Sobor
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 12:47:40 AM »
It seems this topic is answers well enough.

In summary, Protestants either say that Catholic Christians (ergo, Roman, Greek and Coptic alike) are heretics and apostates, or that "the Church" isn't an institution, but it's an abstraction known only to God.

Or, they might say that Catholics are the Church, but that they've been corrupted, the reasoning behind the Protestant Reformation in the first place, which is why the Protestants remain out of communion with it.

More or less.
Pretty much. However, I wouldn't say "Protestants" since thats kind of broad. Anglicans have the branch theory, which accepts us and Rome as part of the Body....Evangelical Baptists most certainly do not :)

PP



    I guess I'm in this weird in-between area then because I grew up Baptist, but I still believe Catholics and Orthodox are apart of the Body.

There are different strains of Baptist.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

No longer pasting here.

Another blog - http://literarydiktator.blogspot.com/

Offline byhisgrace

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 410
  • Faith: Evangelodox
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2015, 12:40:23 AM »
They don't deny the church... they (well most) believe that "the church" is all believers not a formal organization.

Are you a former Protestant, homedad? Because you describe the Protestant faith so accurately and fairly :)

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,096
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2015, 08:18:01 AM »
Quote
I guess I'm in this weird in-between area then because I grew up Baptist, but I still believe Catholics and Orthodox are apart of the Body
If you're a Baptist in the geographical South, or belong to the Evangelical strain, you are a distinct minority by saying that.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Minnesotan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,593
  • From the Land of 10,000 Lakes
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2015, 09:06:26 AM »
They don't deny the church... they (well most) believe that "the church" is all believers not a formal organization.

Are you a former Protestant, homedad? Because you describe the Protestant faith so accurately and fairly :)

For Calvinists, at least, "the church" is synonymous with "the elect", and as such it is invisible and its extent is known only to God who predestined that some people would be saved.

I'm actually not sure how Arminians (such as Wesleyans) view the church, given that many of them don't believe in OSAS, so the Calvinist idea of an invisible elect church no longer holds.

Lutherans believe in a visible and invisible church that overlap partly but not fully (and as such the visible church will always have "wolves in sheep's clothing"), which is a very Augustinian view, I think.

Keep in mind, though, that many Calvinists (particularly of the 9marks variety) do emphasize formal organizations a lot, and frequently seem to conflate membership in the local church, and submission to its discipline, with being elect, based on the idea that no true believer would ever run afoul of the local (Calvinist) church. Calvin himself emphasized "church discipline" a lot too, in his Institutes, hence the overall climate of his Geneva, in which church attendance was mandatory.
This user still posts here even though he might claim not to.

Offline katherineofdixie

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,681
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 09:31:59 AM »
Quote
I guess I'm in this weird in-between area then because I grew up Baptist, but I still believe Catholics and Orthodox are apart of the Body
If you're a Baptist in the geographical South, or belong to the Evangelical strain, you are a distinct minority by saying that.

PP

Ain't that the truth!
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline Jude1:3

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2015, 01:30:22 AM »
Quote
I guess I'm in this weird in-between area then because I grew up Baptist, but I still believe Catholics and Orthodox are apart of the Body
If you're a Baptist in the geographical South, or belong to the Evangelical strain, you are a distinct minority by saying that.

PP



        I mostly have this view because of the general Individual Gospel message in The Scriptures. I think You Guys(Orthodox) have the correct form of Physical Churches on the earth though. I think the Evangelical way of thinking in a personal salvation and individual relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ is correct also though. It's this weird highbred.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,096
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2015, 02:45:21 PM »
Quote
I guess I'm in this weird in-between area then because I grew up Baptist, but I still believe Catholics and Orthodox are apart of the Body
If you're a Baptist in the geographical South, or belong to the Evangelical strain, you are a distinct minority by saying that.

PP



        I mostly have this view because of the general Individual Gospel message in The Scriptures. I think You Guys(Orthodox) have the correct form of Physical Churches on the earth though. I think the Evangelical way of thinking in a personal salvation and individual relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ is correct also though. It's this weird highbred.
I dont know how more personal you can get than eating His Body and drinking His Blood every week.

PP
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 02:45:33 PM by primuspilus »
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Jude1:3

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2015, 10:48:55 PM »
Quote
I guess I'm in this weird in-between area then because I grew up Baptist, but I still believe Catholics and Orthodox are apart of the Body
If you're a Baptist in the geographical South, or belong to the Evangelical strain, you are a distinct minority by saying that.

PP



        I mostly have this view because of the general Individual Gospel message in The Scriptures. I think You Guys(Orthodox) have the correct form of Physical Churches on the earth though. I think the Evangelical way of thinking in a personal salvation and individual relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ is correct also though. It's this weird highbred.
I dont know how more personal you can get than eating His Body and drinking His Blood every week.

PP



  That's true.

Offline WPM

  • Revolutionary Writer
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,086
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2015, 11:43:03 PM »
Its a pretty difficult thing to relate the existence of church with the rest of the world. (I'm not a priest nor clergy, so I'm not indoctrinated in that lifestyle) ...

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,601
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2015, 11:56:37 PM »
Its a pretty difficult thing to relate the existence of church with the rest of the world. (I'm not a priest nor clergy, so I'm not indoctrinated in that lifestyle) ...

It's not. Where do you think the people in church come from?
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline WPM

  • Revolutionary Writer
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,086
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2015, 01:05:20 AM »
Its a pretty difficult thing to relate the existence of church with the rest of the world. (I'm not a priest nor clergy, so I'm not indoctrinated in that lifestyle) ...

It's not. Where do you think the people in church come from?

I don't quite understand because it is something negated, hidden, or blocked from normal view.

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,601
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2015, 01:13:00 AM »
Its a pretty difficult thing to relate the existence of church with the rest of the world. (I'm not a priest nor clergy, so I'm not indoctrinated in that lifestyle) ...

It's not. Where do you think the people in church come from?

I don't quite understand because it is something negated, hidden, or blocked from normal view.

No, it is not.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline wgw

  • Amateur Liturgical Enthusiast
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,771
  • The above Syriac icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2015, 01:16:57 AM »
It seems this topic is answers well enough.

In summary, Protestants either say that Catholic Christians (ergo, Roman, Greek and Coptic alike) are heretics and apostates, or that "the Church" isn't an institution, but it's an abstraction known only to God.

Or, they might say that Catholics are the Church, but that they've been corrupted, the reasoning behind the Protestant Reformation in the first place, which is why the Protestants remain out of communion with it.

More or less.
Pretty much. However, I wouldn't say "Protestants" since thats kind of broad. Anglicans have the branch theory, which accepts us and Rome as part of the Body....Evangelical Baptists most certainly do not :)

PP

Well, the topic is about "Protestants". Even though that is a broad brush, Unitarian Universalism on the one hand, and Trinitarian Calvinism on the other, that's what the OP is asking about.

You know, amusingly enough, the Puritan churches became a bit watered down, and started calling themselves Congregational, in the 18th century.  And then starting in the 1770s, but really picking up steam in the 1780s after the Revolutionary War, there was a huge schism between Trinitarian Calvinists, and Unitarians, who took over Harvard Divinity School, the historic seminary of the Puritans.  These early Unitarians were not universalists and many held to sola scriptura, but later in the 19th century the Universlist denomination began to thrive, and separately the Unitarians began to incline towards Universlism under the influence of ministers like Ralph Waldo Emerson.  So the merger with the Universalists and subsequent complete apostasy of most of the UU church, starting in the 1950s and 60s, was inevitable.

Meanwhile the Trinitarian Calvinist segment of the former Puritan / Congregationalist churches wound up merging with the Reformed Prussian churches who broke away from the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, to form the United Church of Christ.  As early as the 1940s, this denomination became increasingly liberal, and so many comgregations left to form the CCCC, the conservative Comgregational churches.  I forget what each C stands for.  In recent years the extreme liberalism of the UCc has caused them to shrink even faster than the Episcopalians, but there is a group of I think 75 conservative churches in the UCC that hope to one day restore aaa measure of orthodoxy to the denomination, called Faithful and Welcoming, and they run a sort of church Finder and social networking sites; I think there are well over a hundred UCC pastors associated with them, and they provide matchmaking services when a conservative congregation wants to hire a conservative pastor.  This all works because, like the Baptists and the Unitarian Universalists, the UCC has a comgregational polity, allowing each church to chose it's own pastor. 

But it's remarkable to note how the Puritans, the church of John, Cotton and Increase Mather, and Jonathan Edwards of "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" fame, the same church that burned witches at the stake in Salem, wound up through a schism dividing itself into what became the two most liberal denominations in America.  And it's a bit sad to note that most of the oldest church buildings in America, including the oldest, are Unitarian Universalist churches, and those that aren't are mostly liberal UCC.  One prominent exception is the Park Street Church in Boston, which I believe is CCCC.   Also the Old North Church in Boston is Episcopalian and I believe due to its heritage extemely, shall we say, uncontroversial, recognizing it's status and value as a tourist attraction shouldn't be compromised by doing anything too shocking.   But the oldest church building in America, the Old Ship Church, is tragically Unitarian.

Of course all these churches pretty much embrace an Invisible Church ecclesiology or a comgregational ecclesiology where the local church is the Church.  But any anger they might have at Catholics is doubtless over the social stance of the Roman Catholic Church, the fact they have yet to yield on issues like the ordination of women or homosexuality.  And in the Unitarian Universalist church this is probabaly fairly intense; the UUs pride themselves on inclusiveness and even have atheist ministers.  So that's that.

Offline wgw

  • Amateur Liturgical Enthusiast
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,771
  • The above Syriac icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2015, 01:18:37 AM »
Its a pretty difficult thing to relate the existence of church with the rest of the world. (I'm not a priest nor clergy, so I'm not indoctrinated in that lifestyle) ...

It's not. Where do you think the people in church come from?

I don't quite understand because it is something negated, hidden, or blocked from normal view.

I don't understand your statement.  How do you think the existence of the church is obscured?  Are you referring to the idea of the Church in the abstract perhaps?

Offline WPM

  • Revolutionary Writer
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,086
Re: How do protestants deny the church
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2015, 01:42:29 AM »
Its a pretty difficult thing to relate the existence of church with the rest of the world. (I'm not a priest nor clergy, so I'm not indoctrinated in that lifestyle) ...

It's not. Where do you think the people in church come from?

I don't quite understand because it is something negated, hidden, or blocked from normal view.

I don't understand your statement.  How do you think the existence of the church is obscured?  Are you referring to the idea of the Church in the abstract perhaps?

Something we can't see.