OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 02, 2014, 01:25:08 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: "SOLA IMAGINATION"  (Read 794 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« on: October 03, 2011, 07:02:21 AM »

Apocrypha - the extra-biblical books that have remained in the bible of the Orthodox, that have been removed in the Protestant bibles. Aside from these, are there any other books that are considered by Orthodox, on equal par with scripture, that i'm not aware of?
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2011, 07:59:15 AM »

To answer your question without getting into phrases like "extra-biblical" (because we don't believe them to be "extra") or "on par with scripture" (because we don't believe it to be "on par with" but "included in")...

What you will find in the Orthodox Study Bible, to the best of my knowledge, is the general concensus on what is considered included in the OT with some variation on the inclusion of 4 Maccabees among the EO. I think there might be a little more variation among the OO, for example the Ethiopian Church includes the book of Enoch and others don't.

One difference I have noticed between what is typically found in the OSB and other bibles that include the other books in an extra section is that where other bibles will put the prayer of Azariah and the Hymn of theh Three Youths in their own section as an individual book, these are found in line with the text as a part of the book of Daniel. It's not a real substantial difference, just one that I noticed. That and some of the books of the OT will have the same text, but different chapter/verse numberings - also not a substantial difference.

I will say that variations in canon or translation are not as big of a deal with Orthodoxy as it is with Protestantism. For example I use the KJV (with the exception of one reference from 2 Maccabees where the OSB translates a phrase "Victory is of God" and the KJV says "Divine Victory") for quotations on my blog because of the ease with which it can be referenced and it's familiarity among english speaking Christians.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2011, 08:06:34 AM »

The problem is this. Taking from 1 billion valid historical documents about christianity , taking Bible from them and then throwing everything out of window. Then whatever is not well specified in Bible use Imagination so Sola scriptura is sola Imagination. We have many imaginations and many Protestant denominations. How about Sola Herodotus in history. thjorw all historical documents out of window beside Herodotus because they were not written by herodotuis thus maybe errors and keep just herodotus and then try build Columbus expedition from this. You have only imagination left.

Example: What people did on Sundays?
With Bible only the answer is very vagues since the goal of the Bible was not to describe this. Some people believe that Christians did clapping, dancing ,whatever.

If you take Holy Liturgy of Apostle James that is a valid Historical document believed to be written in year 60 at last, then you know exactly what people did on Sunday, step by step so eliminates confusion. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0717.htm

Without historical documents you can renounce Holy Liturgy on Sunday, that prepares the food for eternal life, thus maybe renounce eternal life.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 08:10:03 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2011, 08:31:53 AM »

Apocrypha - the extra-biblical books that have remained in the bible of the Orthodox, that have been removed in the Protestant bibles. Aside from these, are there any other books that are considered by Orthodox, on equal par with scripture, that i'm not aware of?

Actually they were removed by the Jews in reaction to Christian usage of the Septuagint. Martin Luther (a very troubled man) erroneously believed they were not authentic; today we know that they are not only authentic, but several of the books were originally written in Hebrew.

Martin Luther also maligned the Book of Esther, because it does not mention God at all (the Septuagint version does). In addition, he suppressed the Epistle of James, and that of Paul to the Hebrews, claiming they were inauthentic and out of step with Christ's teachings.

You see, once you reject the traditions the Apostles have taught, there are no standards and you can do whatever you want. Sola Imagination indeed. Pasadi97 makes great points above.

So, they are not on par with scripture; they are scripture.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 08:34:03 AM by bogdan » Logged
jewish voice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 540



« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2011, 08:53:45 AM »

Apocrypha - the extra-biblical books that have remained in the bible of the Orthodox, that have been removed in the Protestant bibles. Aside from these, are there any other books that are considered by Orthodox, on equal par with scripture, that i'm not aware of?

Actually they were removed by the Jews in reaction to Christian usage of the Septuagint. Martin Luther (a very troubled man) erroneously believed they were not authentic; today we know that they are not only authentic, but several of the books were originally written in Hebrew.

Martin Luther also maligned the Book of Esther, because it does not mention God at all (the Septuagint version does). In addition, he suppressed the Epistle of James, and that of Paul to the Hebrews, claiming they were inauthentic and out of step with Christ's teachings.

You see, once you reject the traditions the Apostles have taught, there are no standards and you can do whatever you want. Sola Imagination indeed. Pasadi97 makes great points above.

So, they are not on par with scripture; they are scripture.
HEY your not to tell that !! Tongue
I always did laugh growing up that are 2nd famous holiday Hunukkah that most of the whole world knows about isn't even found in our Tanakh (bible)

Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,014


"My god is greater."


« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2011, 09:56:04 AM »

And here I was thinking this would be a William Blake thread...
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,659


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2011, 12:56:28 PM »

And here I was thinking this would be a William Blake thread...

I wish.  Undecided
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,981


black metal cat


« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2011, 01:15:11 PM »

Jordanville Prayer Book is the only other thing I can think of Smiley
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,926


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 01:26:01 PM »

Apocrypha - the extra-biblical books that have remained in the bible of the Orthodox, that have been removed in the Protestant bibles. Aside from these, are there any other books that are considered by Orthodox, on equal par with scripture, that i'm not aware of?
First off, there is a ranking system with holy writings in the EO. In my understanding, it goes like this:

Gospels
Rest of NT besides Revelation
Revelation
Old Testament
Old Testament Deuterocanon (what you call apocrypha)
Other ancient holy texts (Didache, Shepherd of Hermas, Enoch)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 01:26:17 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 09:09:22 PM »

Actually they were removed by the Jews in reaction to Christian usage of the Septuagint. Martin Luther (a very troubled man) erroneously believed they were not authentic; today we know that they are not only authentic, but several of the books were originally written in Hebrew.

Can I get a citation for that? Exactly where were these Hebrew texts found?
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,659


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2011, 09:21:45 PM »

The Dead Sea Scrolls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 10:06:13 PM »

Apocrypha - the extra-biblical books that have remained in the bible of the Orthodox, that have been removed in the Protestant bibles. Aside from these, are there any other books that are considered by Orthodox, on equal par with scripture, that i'm not aware of?
First off, there is a ranking system with holy writings in the EO. In my understanding, it goes like this:

Gospels
Rest of NT besides Revelation
Revelation
Old Testament
Old Testament Deuterocanon (what you call apocrypha)
Other ancient holy texts (Didache, Shepherd of Hermas, Enoch)

I have been told by a priest that it goes: Gospels; Rest of NT besides Revelation; Revelation; Old Testament (including so-called deuterocanon); Other ancient holy texts.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2011, 11:11:00 PM »

Even if historical documents are not in par with Bible not being inspired by God, History is a science and should be considered. Sola Imaginatioon or DAY DREAMING is under the history and we can see the fruits of this error that replaced history.


The problem is this. Taking from 1 billion valid historical documents about christianity , taking Bible from them and then throwing everything out of window. Then whatever is not well specified in Bible use Imagination so Sola scriptura is sola Imagination. We have many imaginations and many Protestant denominations. How about Sola Herodotus in history. thjorw all historical documents out of window beside Herodotus because they were not written by herodotuis thus maybe errors and keep just herodotus and then try build Columbus expedition from this. You have only imagination left.

Example: What people did on Sundays?
With Bible only the answer is very vagues since the goal of the Bible was not to describe this. Some people believe that Christians did clapping, dancing ,whatever.

If you take Holy Liturgy of Apostle James that is a valid Historical document believed to be written in year 60 at last, then you know exactly what people did on Sunday, step by step so eliminates confusion. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0717.htm

Without historical documents you can renounce Holy Liturgy on Sunday, that prepares the food for eternal life, thus maybe renounce eternal life.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 11:11:46 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2011, 11:44:59 PM »

Apocrypha - the extra-biblical books that have remained in the bible of the Orthodox, that have been removed in the Protestant bibles. Aside from these, are there any other books that are considered by Orthodox, on equal par with scripture, that i'm not aware of?
First off, there is a ranking system with holy writings in the EO. In my understanding, it goes like this:

Gospels
Rest of NT besides Revelation
Revelation
Old Testament
Old Testament Deuterocanon (what you call apocrypha)
Other ancient holy texts (Didache, Shepherd of Hermas, Enoch)

I have been told by a priest that it goes: Gospels; Rest of NT besides Revelation; Revelation; Old Testament (including so-called deuterocanon); Other ancient holy texts.

I think these sorts of lists are useful up to a point: the reality is more fuzzy.

Genesis 1:1, despite being from the Old Testament, is obviously more important than Paul's injunction to Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach's sake.

There is only one source of authority in Orthodox Christianity: the Apostolic tradition. The canonised Scripture is the pre-eminent part of the Apostolic tradition, but it is not the whole of it.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,981


black metal cat


« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2011, 12:56:42 AM »

There is only one source of authority in Orthodox Christianity: the Apostolic tradition.

I would have said God. Wink
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,926


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2011, 01:25:58 AM »

And according to Christ, Christ is not the sole authority.

"But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 01:27:26 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Tags: sola scriptura 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.081 seconds with 42 queries.