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Author Topic: Ukraine: UOC-MP, UAOC, UOC-KP & UGCC  (Read 1287 times) Average Rating: 0
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Sirach
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« on: October 02, 2011, 12:51:31 PM »

I am trying to understand the background and current situation in Ukraine among the Orthodox themselves, and between the Orthodox and the Catholics.

I found this web site:  Religious Information Service of Ukraine.

Do you have any book recommendations?  Any other web sites?

Thanks.
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Heorhij
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« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 01:10:21 PM »

RISU is a great resource. As a Ukrainian by birth, I often scan its Web pages, and I am a close Facebook friend of its director, Taras Antoshevs'kyj, and several of its staffers (Olena Kulygina, Anatolij Babyns'kyj and others). I am also a Facebook friend of the Provost of the Ukrainian Catholic University, Fr. Borys Gudzyak. He is a very interesting man: born in the USA, studied in Italy, but now made his home in L'viv, western Ukraine.

The Web sites of the Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions can be very easily found by Google. Unfortunately, they do not do a good job at translating their materials into English - this is done only occasionally. If you need to get a summary of something published there, let me know.
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 01:14:25 PM »

The UOC site (http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/node) has fairly good English version.
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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 01:23:06 PM »

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/44532/
This piece of news looks exciting!


The UOC site (http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/node) has fairly good English version.
It would be important to mention that this is the UOC under the Moscow Patriarchate.
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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 01:24:35 PM »

I prefer 'the original UOC'.
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« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 01:31:46 PM »

I prefer 'the original UOC'.

Original would be under Constantinople, see here:
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/orthodox_world/44182/
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« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2011, 01:37:26 PM »


Don't get our Moskvophiles started - they will tell you that RISU is biased, shameless, agents of Satan (the Vatican), etc. There is no God except Allah, and Patr. Kirill is His Prophet.  Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2011, 01:40:49 PM »


The problem with it is that on that meeting there was nothing about Ukraine.

Yes, RISU is biased and unreliable.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2011, 02:54:02 PM »

Like Constantinople should be under Herakleion? Itself under Old Rome?

Autocephaly happens. It should happen. That the Phanar doesn't like that is irrelevant to the discussion. Or are you going to argue that the Church of Greece, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, the Romanian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Albanian Orthodox Church (and perhaps the Polish Orthodox Church) should all go back under Old Rome, where they originally were?

The article at RISU (itself the propaganda arm of the Vatican's beach head in Ukraine, the UGCC) is full of lies.  I'm preoccupied at the moment, but Lord willing I'll return to expose them. Again.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2011, 02:54:03 PM »

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/44532/
This piece of news looks exciting!


The UOC site (http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/node) has fairly good English version.
It would be important to mention that this is the UOC under the Moscow Patriarchate.
Oh? You didn't find it important to mention that RISU was established and is run by the Vatican's UGCC.  Why not?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2011, 02:54:03 PM »


Don't get our Moskvophiles started - they will tell you that RISU is biased, shameless, agents of Satan (the Vatican), etc.
you are claiming it's not?
There is no God except Allah, and Patr. Kirill is His Prophet.  Tongue
Grin angel Cheesy
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« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2011, 04:03:36 PM »

The problem with it is that on that meeting there was nothing about Ukraine.

Yes, RISU is biased and unreliable.
Is it not true that Constantinople rejects Moscow's classification of Ukraine as Moscow's canonical territory?


Autocephaly happens. It should happen. That the Phanar doesn't like that is irrelevant to the discussion. Or are you going to argue that the Church of Greece, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, the Romanian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Albanian Orthodox Church (and perhaps the Polish Orthodox Church) should all go back under Old Rome, where they originally were?
No, but Ukraine should get autocephaly, too, and that Moscow doesn't like that is irrelevant to the discussion.


Oh? You didn't find it important to mention that RISU was established and is run by the Vatican's UGCC.  Why not?
The web site states "RISU is a project of the Institute of Religion and Society of the Ukrainian Catholic University".
The UCU is not a propaganda branch, but an independent university, that while being Catholic, also has Orthodox professors., such as Antoine Arjakovsky.
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« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2011, 04:09:59 PM »

The problem with it is that on that meeting there was nothing about Ukraine.

Yes, RISU is biased and unreliable.
Is it not true that Constantinople rejects Moscow's classification of Ukraine as Moscow's canonical territory?

There are no proofs. It's not true that Ukraine was mentioned on that meeting.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2011, 04:49:10 PM »

The problem with it is that on that meeting there was nothing about Ukraine.

Yes, RISU is biased and unreliable.
Is it not true that Constantinople rejects Moscow's classification of Ukraine as Moscow's canonical territory?[/img]
No.  The EP and Constantinople have several times come out and officially and publically denied that it did not accept Moscow's canonical jurisidiction over the Metropolitanate of Kiev and All Ukraine.  IIRC, one of the conditions of the UOCUSA and UOCC being accepted by the EP was an agreement not to get entangled in the dispute with Moscow over Kiev.

Autocephaly happens. It should happen. That the Phanar doesn't like that is irrelevant to the discussion. Or are you going to argue that the Church of Greece, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, the Romanian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Albanian Orthodox Church (and perhaps the Polish Orthodox Church) should all go back under Old Rome, where they originally were?
No, but Ukraine should get autocephaly, too,
I agree too, but it will be Metropolitan Volodymyr who gets it, and he will receive it from his primate, the Patriarch of Moscow.

and that Moscow doesn't like that is irrelevant to the discussion.
Since the Patriarch of Moscow has jurisdiction over Kiev and All Ukraine, and the font of the canonical Orthodox episcopate as Patriarch of All Rus', yes very much relevant to the discussion.

Oh? You didn't find it important to mention that RISU was established and is run by the Vatican's UGCC.  Why not?
The web site states "RISU is a project of the Institute of Religion and Society of the Ukrainian Catholic University".
The UCU is not a propaganda branch, but an independent university, that while being Catholic, also has Orthodox professors., such as Antoine Arjakovsky.
LOL. Yes. We've met. He stuck his foot in a hornet's nest with our Romanians trying to defend the Vatican's meddling in the East.  Myself, I had to cut our discussion short about the UGCC moving to (I said/say invading) Kiev (it was Mother's Day, and so I had a lunch date  angel).

The fish don't know they are wet in that tank.
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« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2011, 04:58:04 PM »

The EP and Constantinople have several times come out and officially and publically denied that it did not accept Moscow's canonical jurisidiction over the Metropolitanate of Kiev and All Ukraine. 
Do you have any (non-Russian/MP) source on that?

I agree too, but it will be Metropolitan Volodymyr who gets it, and he will receive it from his primate, the Patriarch of Moscow.
I don't think Moscow would get away with unilaterally giving autocephaly to the UOC-MP. Remember the OCA autocephaly? I think they would at least somehow need to coordinate with Constantinople.
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« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2011, 06:01:49 PM »

Thanks for the information that the RISU web site is sponsored by a Catholic University.  I don't think that, in and of itself, would make it unreliable, but it is good to know where their bias might come from.

On the UOC-MP web site, do they ever editorialize about the intra-Orthodox situation, or Orthodox-Catholic relations?

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ialmisry
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2011, 06:36:03 PM »

The EP and Constantinople have several times come out and officially and publically denied that it did not accept Moscow's canonical jurisidiction over the Metropolitanate of Kiev and All Ukraine. 
Do you have any (non-Russian/MP) source on that?
Why?  Russians can't tell the truth?
Quote
At that time, namely in the year 988, under the rule of prince Vladimir, this newly-founded Church of Russia was placed under the canonical jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, in application of the 28th canon of the Fourth Ecumenical Council.
Roll Eyes
Quote
After the fall of Kiev to the Mongols and the ensuing disappearance of Metropolitan Joseph of Russia, possibly to a violent death, the Ecumenical Patriarchate once again stood supportive, suffering with the Russian Church in turmoil. It welcomes the new Metropolitan Kyril II (1243), who was sent to the state of Nicaea in order to receive the canonical confirmation of the Patriarch of Constantinople, who had sought refuge there. And only a few years later, the Ecumenical Patriarchate blesses the decisions of the Synod in the city of Vladimir, transferring the See of the Russian Church to that city by synodical decree.

In the fullness of time, the Church of Russia was first proclaimed autocephalous  and later elevated to a Patriarchate  during the tenure of Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople.  Moreover, it is a well-substantiated fact that, when the then Patriarch Joachim of Antioch visited Moscow, he received a relative petition from the then Czar Theodore to elevate the Russian Church to a Patriarchate; nevertheless, being aware of the ecclesiastical order and canonical process, the Patriarch of Antioch confirmed that the establishment of a Patriarchate in Russia presupposed the initiative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which was indeed secured, thereby materializing the desire of the Russian people and the Russian Church.
http://patriarchate.org/documents/address-y-his-eminence-archbishop-irenaios-of-crete-head-of-the-delegation-of-the-ecumenical-patriarchate-to-his-beatitude-patriarch-kyril-of-moscow-and-all-russia-on-the-occasion-of-his-enthronement

Quote
During its regular session, held on June 23-25, 2008, The Holy and Sacred Synod reviewed the invitations of His Beatitude Alexy, Patriarch of Moscow, requesting a Patriarchal Delegation to attend the festivities of the 1020th anniversary of the Christianization of the Kievan Rus and of His Excellency Viktor Yushchenko, President of Ukraine, to His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew to personally lead the aforementioned festivities.

Having evaluated the invitations of the Church, Nation and the Ukrainian people, and in honoring their feelings, the Mother Church – as the one who originally guided the Ukrainian people into baptism – decided to respond to the aforementioned invitations through the sending of a Patriarchal Delegation under the personal leadership of His All Holiness.

At the Patriarchate, 2 July 2008
From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy Synod


Официальное Сообщение

Святой и Священный Синод на своем очередном заседании, проходившем с 23 по 25 июня с.г., рассмотрел приглашение Блаженнейшего Патриарха Московского г. Алексия отправить в Украину Патриаршую Делегацию для участия на торжествах 1020-летнего юбилея крещения Киевской Руси, и приглашение Его Высокопревосходительства Президента Украины г. Виктора Ющенко Всесвятейшему Вселенскому Патриарху г.г. Варфоломею возглавить вышеупомянутые торжества. Оценив данные приглашения от Церкви, от Государства и от народа Украины и уважая их чувства, определил, чтобы Матерь – Церковь, которая привела украинский народ к крещению, ответила на вышеуказанные приглашения, отправив Патриаршую Делегацию, возглавляемую Его Всесвятейшеством.

В Патриархии, 30-ого июня 2008 г.
Секретариат Святого и Священного Синода
http://patriarchate.org/news/releases/kiev-press-release-2008

Quote
07/25/08: CHRISTIANIZATION OF KIEV: Metropolitan Volodymyr of Kiev greets Ecumenical Patriarch
On Friday, July 25, 2008, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Volodymyr of Kiev greeted Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. A Service of Thanksgiving was held upon the Ecumenical Patriarch's arrival at the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra.

After the service Metropolitan Volodymyr and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew offered an exchange of greetings and gifts.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS238US238&hl=en&q=cache:lNCdGwWl2doJ:http://www.patriarchate.org/multimedia/photos?setID=72157623707473168&title=07/25/08:%20CHRISTIANIZATION%20OF%20KIEV:%20Metropolitan%20Volodymyr%20of%20Kiev%20greets%20Ecumenical%20Patriarch+Bartholomew+Volodymyr&ct=clnk

Quote
Patriarch Bartholomew urges Ukrainian dissenters to join Canonical Church
May 31, 2010 at 14:08 | Interfax-Ukraine Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople has urged all dissenters to repent and to join the Canonical Orthodox Church.

Let dissenters brush away hesitation and join the Canonical Church - their rescue vessel, Patriarch Bartholomew said in an interview with Vesti 24 television channel, recorded at the Constantine Palace near St. Petersburg on Sunday.

Patriarch Bartholomew said he had met with Metropolitan Volodymyr of Kyiv and All Ukraine recently and wished him to receive mercy and see the problem resolved in his lifetime and that schism cease to exist.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS238US238&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=19749l26940l0l27128l18l18l0l17l0l0l210l210l2-1l1l0&hl=en&q=cache:jSsb4FzO7toJ:http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/68107/print/+Bartholomew+Volodymyr+canonical+Ukraine&ct=clnk
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27989.0.html
Quote
we do not fully understand an idea expressed by His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew when he said: “all our brothers who seceded should come back to the canonical Church”. What is the Ecumenical Patriarch speaking about?
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS238US238&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=19749l26940l0l27128l18l18l0l17l0l0l210l210l2-1l1l0&hl=en&q=cache:ZJ7QbdvLFNkJ:http://en.uockp.net/news.html+Bartholomew+Volodymyr+canonical+Ukraine&ct=clnk

Btw, this is what the Phanar had to say on the meeting this year with the "Ancient Patriarchs," a new canonical category unknown to the Fathers:
Quote
Announcement Synaxis of their Beatitudes the heads of the Ancient Orthodox Patriarchates and the Church of Cyprus
Phanar, Holy Patriarchal Church
September 1-3, 2011
http://patriarchate.org/documents/announcement-synaxis-of-their-beatitudes-the-heads-of-the-ancient-orthodox-patriarchates-and-the-church-of-cyprus

I agree too, but it will be Metropolitan Volodymyr who gets it, and he will receive it from his primate, the Patriarch of Moscow.
I don't think Moscow would get away with unilaterally giving autocephaly to the UOC-MP. Remember the OCA autocephaly?
Don't have to remember it.  It's still here.

I think they would at least somehow need to coordinate with Constantinople.
Nice, but not necessary. Witness, for instance, the Church of Czech Lands and Slovakia.
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« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2011, 06:37:12 PM »

Thanks for the information that the RISU web site is sponsored by a Catholic University.  I don't think that, in and of itself, would make it unreliable, but it is good to know where their bias might come from.

On the UOC-MP web site, do they ever editorialize about the intra-Orthodox situation, or Orthodox-Catholic relations?



http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/taxonomy/term/19
Yes.
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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2011, 07:17:27 PM »

ialmisry,

Interfax IS a Russian source. Apart from that, it is normal that Patriarch Bartholomew will express the hope that non-canonical people will become canonical again. But he did not say this means "submit to the MP". Or did he ever revoke the 1924 tomos?

As for the "autocephaly" of the OCA, it is not universally recognized. Many local churches still consider the OCA to be part of the MP.
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« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2011, 12:14:03 AM »

ialmisry,

Interfax IS a Russian source.
Yes, I'm aware of that. Now, do you care to explain away all the links from the EP's website that I posted?  From the "Kyivan Patriarch"'s that I posted?

Apart from that, it is normal that Patriarch Bartholomew will express the hope that non-canonical people will become canonical again. But he did not say this means "submit to the MP".
Tell you what: you cough up a picture or article of the EP concellebrating with "Patriarch" Filoret or any of his "synod," or with the UAOC, or UAOCC, as he is with Met. Volodymyr in the links on the EP site, and I'll hold off from calling a spade a spade.

This computer I'm on right now freezes with a lot of sites, so I have to be careful what I open. But the statements coming out of Constantinople on the canonical jurisdiction in Ukraine haven't been a secret: Metropolitan Volodymyr is the only primate the EP has relations with in Ukraine, despite the attempts of uncanonical groups approaching the Phanar, and despite the fact that the Phanar has had no problem claiming the Ukrainian diaspora and setting up hierarchies in the jurisdiction of others, e.g. Estonia, no such hiearchy exists in Ukraine.  Connect the dots.

Or did he ever revoke the 1924 tomos?
LOL. Moscow/Warsaw revoked the uncanonical 1924 Tomos for him.  Btw, I am quite amused, of course, of how the schismatic Ukrainians claim that the Tomos of Poland set them free, whereas it recognizes West Ukraine as part of the Polish Church.  Equally amuzing is that the very rational and reasoning of the Tomos itself "taking into consideration the structions of the holy canons, which have established that the system of church affairs should correspond with the political and community forms (IV Ecumenical Council, canon 17, VI Ecumenical Council, canon 38), as well as the reasoning of Photius: "It is acceptable that laws which relate to church affairs, and especially parish matters, should correspond with political and administrative changes" support the reunion of the Kievan Metropolitanate to its mother hiearch, the Patriarch of Moscow, in 1685.

As for the "autocephaly" of the OCA, it is not universally recognized.
Neither was Constantinople's for centuries: Rome insisted canons 3 of Constantinople I and 28 of Chalcedon were null and void.  The Church moved on.

Georgia, the Church of Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Russia, the Czech Lands and Slovakia....not one held their breath waiting for the EP.  In Antioch, no one shrivled up and died when, in reaction to the Antiochians take the matter at hand and became masters of their own home again by throwing out the Phanariots, the Phanar and the rest of the Greek Church struck the Patriarch of Antioch from the diptychs.  He stayed in the Orthodox diptychs of the other (at the time) ten autocephalous Churches of the Catholic Church.

The Phanar, at the time of the granting of autocephaly in 1970, tried to scold Moscow by pointing out that it wasn't autocephalous until the "Chrysobullos of 1589" (btw, does any one have a copy?).  Patriarch Alexis pulled the rug under the EP claims by reminding him that Moscow became autocephalous in 1448, when Constantinople had apostacized over to heresy, and that the EP had come to Moscow himself to celebrate that in 1948.  That it took the Phanar 141 years to recognize that fact officially didn't make it any less a de jure fact, let alone a de facto one.


Many local churches still consider the OCA to be part of the MP.
unfortunately the Phanar proved itself too clever by half with its Chambesy scheme.  Now it is official, with the signatures of "All the local autocephalous Church" (as the Phanar's spokesmen were fond of emphasizing any point they could), that the OCA is not recognized by anyone as part of the MP, and yet recognized by them all as canonical.  How long they think they can be "a little pregnant" isn't the OCA's problem nor concern.
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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2011, 05:31:08 PM »

Does this aound about right for the religious make-up of Ukraine(?):

•14.9 % UOC – KP
•10.9 % UOC - MP
•5.3 % UGCC
•1.0 % UAOC
•0.6 % Roman Catholic
•0.9 % Protestants
•0.1 % Jewish
•3.2 % Other Denominations
•62.5 % No Preference

Source:  Wikipedia, Religion in Ukraine
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« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2011, 05:43:29 PM »

Does this aound about right for the religious make-up of Ukraine(?):

•14.9 % UOC – KP
•10.9 % UOC - MP
•5.3 % UGCC
•1.0 % UAOC
•0.6 % Roman Catholic
•0.9 % Protestants
•0.1 % Jewish
•3.2 % Other Denominations
•62.5 % No Preference

Source:  Wikipedia, Religion in Ukraine


I'd say it does sound right.
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« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2011, 06:12:28 PM »

On the UOC-MP web site, do they ever editorialize about the intra-Orthodox situation, or Orthodox-Catholic relations?

http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/taxonomy/term/19
Yes.

I see a lot of stories about who met with who, but no editorials.  Please point out a few of the editorials so I know what to look for in the subject line.

Thanks.
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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2011, 03:11:02 PM »

Apart from that, it is normal that Patriarch Bartholomew will express the hope that non-canonical people will become canonical again. But he did not say this means "submit to the MP".
Tell you what: you cough up a picture or article of the EP concellebrating with "Patriarch" Filoret or any of his "synod," or with the UAOC, or UAOCC, as he is with Met. Volodymyr in the links on the EP site, and I'll hold off from calling a spade a spade.

This is a good point as far as who is recognized as the official Orthodox representative in Ukraine.

What are the MP and the EP doing to correct the current UOC-MP, UOC-KP, UAOC situation in Ukraine?
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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2011, 03:39:35 PM »

Apart from that, it is normal that Patriarch Bartholomew will express the hope that non-canonical people will become canonical again. But he did not say this means "submit to the MP".
Tell you what: you cough up a picture or article of the EP concellebrating with "Patriarch" Filoret or any of his "synod," or with the UAOC, or UAOCC, as he is with Met. Volodymyr in the links on the EP site, and I'll hold off from calling a spade a spade.

This is a good point as far as who is recognized as the official Orthodox representative in Ukraine.

What are the MP and the EP doing to correct the current UOC-MP, UOC-KP, UAOC situation in Ukraine?


The "un-canonical" Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions are, on the most part, ignored by the official UOC-MP. Sometimes this silent boycott acquires even comical obertones. For example, in Kyiv, right across the Kyiv-Pechers'k Lavra, there is a small monastery that belongs to the UOC-KP, and it has a great bookstore. The bookstore is hard to miss, because it is clearly visible from any public vehicle that passes by. A number of times, I was asked by my friends from the UOC-MP to send them xerox copies of the Ukrainian Orthodox prayer books or the text of the Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian. I always did that, but I could not abstain from commenting that all these materials are readily available from a huge, well-lit, neat bookstore that is right actoss the street from their main sanctuary. They said, oh, you know, we admit, these materials are certainly available from there, but... we want to obtain them from the canonical Orthodox jurisdiction (the prayerbook I have at home is from UOC-USA). Another example: the UAOC Web site contains the full text of the Divine Liturgy by St. John Chrysostom in Ukrainian. Again, when my "canonical" friends ask me to send them this Ukrainian translation, I refer them to that site, and they "blush" and say, "no, we cannot open it, we prefer something from a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction."

Until rather recently, there was this notion in the "canonical" UOC-MP that the Holy Mysteries at parishes of the UOC-KP or UAOC are "void," and, therefore, those who had been baptised at these "schismatic" parishes and then expressed the desire to return to the "canonical" church, must be re-baptised. However, about a year ago or so, Met. +VOLODYMYR(Sabodan) of the UOC-MP started to talk about admitting these people into the Church without re-baptising them.

Also, a while ago, one brave young bishop, Archbp. +OLEKSANDR (Drabynko) of Pereyaslav-Khmel'nyts'kyj and Vyshnya, made a dramatic speech at a council of UOC-MP bishops, insisting that the word "schismatics" (rozkol'nyky) should not be used to brand our Fathers, sisters and brothers from the UOC-KP and the UAOC. Vladyka +OLEKSANDR calls for a thorough, peaceful dialogue and compromise, instead of name-calling and ignoring each other by the jurisdictions.
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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2011, 04:04:33 PM »

ialmisry,

Nothing you claim is mentioned in the documents from the EP website. And of course you cannot see any concelebration, as long as there is no full communion. But the EP is not stupid, and they do reserve the possibility to do in Ukraine what they have done in Estonia, especially if KP and UAOC get together.
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2011, 04:26:23 PM »

This is a good point as far as who is recognized as the official Orthodox representative in Ukraine.

What are the MP and the EP doing to correct the current UOC-MP, UOC-KP, UAOC situation in Ukraine?


The EP does recognize the UOC-MP as officially orthodox. It does not recognize any exclusive claims of the MP on Ukraine. Therefore, they also hold meetings with non-canonical groups, trying to encourage understanding between the different groups.

The MP, on the other hand, does not seem to be open for compromise, especially not anything that would mean a canonical autocephalous church in Ukraine. On the contrary, they are trying to win over individual KP and UAOC parishes, and Pat. Kyrill is even considering relocating his patriarchate to Kyiv.
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« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2011, 05:28:35 PM »

This is a good point as far as who is recognized as the official Orthodox representative in Ukraine.

What are the MP and the EP doing to correct the current UOC-MP, UOC-KP, UAOC situation in Ukraine?


The EP does recognize the UOC-MP as officially orthodox. It does not recognize any exclusive claims of the MP on Ukraine.
Care to quote him on that?

Therefore, they also hold meetings with non-canonical groups, trying to encourage understanding between the different groups.
He meets with the Vatican as well.  What should we infer from that?

The MP, on the other hand, does not seem to be open for compromise, especially not anything that would mean a canonical autocephalous church in Ukraine. On the contrary, they are trying to win over individual KP and UAOC parishes, and Pat. Kyrill is even considering relocating his patriarchate to Kyiv.
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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2011, 05:28:35 PM »

ialmisry,

Nothing you claim is mentioned in the documents from the EP website. And of course you cannot see any concelebration, as long as there is no full communion. But the EP is not stupid, and they do reserve the possibility to do in Ukraine what they have done in Estonia, especially if KP and UAOC get together.
I'm afraid I don't have the time (or the good computer) to feret through the various statements, publically and officially made by the EP on this over the last two decades or so to satisfy you.

The EP has been in Ukraine several times.  He has conclebrated there several times with Met. Volodymyr and his hierarchs, while refusing (as you seem to admit) to do so with schismatic groups like the KP and UAOC. The EP has refered to schismatic groups and canonical groups in Ukraine: who do you think he means.  The EP has also been in Estonia, and there no opportunity is missed to refuse contact with the canonical Metropolitan Kornelius of Tallin and All Estonia and his hiearchy and flock, to malign them as foreignors etc.  Not like his actions in Ukraine at all.

"The EP is not stupid": by any and all accounts 25 % of Ukraine is going to chose Moscow over Constantinople if the EP wants to challenge the PoM in Ukraine, backed of course by All Russia.  With the collapse of Greece, that is going to be a rather tall order for the EP to pull off.

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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2011, 05:59:19 PM »

For example, in Kyiv, right across the Kyiv-Pechers'k Lavra, there is a small monastery that belongs to the UOC-KP, and it has a great bookstore. The bookstore is hard to miss, because it is clearly visible from any public vehicle that passes by. A number of times, I was asked by my friends from the UOC-MP to send them xerox copies of the Ukrainian Orthodox prayer books or the text of the Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian. I always did that, but I could not abstain from commenting that all these materials are readily available from a huge, well-lit, neat bookstore that is right actoss the street from their main sanctuary. They said, oh, you know, we admit, these materials are certainly available from there, but... we want to obtain them from the canonical Orthodox jurisdiction (the prayerbook I have at home is from UOC-USA). Another example: the UAOC Web site contains the full text of the Divine Liturgy by St. John Chrysostom in Ukrainian. Again, when my "canonical" friends ask me to send them this Ukrainian translation, I refer them to that site, and they "blush" and say, "no, we cannot open it, we prefer something from a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction."

Is there a standardized Ukrainian set of liturgical texts or is it a hodgepodge mess like English?  I'll have to do some investigating, as all of my church materials at home are in Church Slavonic.  Something in a comprehensible modern language would be preferable.     
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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2011, 06:10:10 PM »

ialmisry,
The EP is not part of the Greek state in any kind, neither has he maligned the EOC-MP. And actually, I dont see why you want the EP to concelebrate with non-canonical groups. As long as they are non-canonical, the normal way is to help them become canonical, and THEN concelebrate.

Nektarios,
I am not aware of any kind of standard. Under the EP, UOC-USA and UOC-Canada seem to use different texts... in the UOC-MP, there are the versions of bishop Jonathan of Kherson and most recently, of my friend Fr. Andriy Dudchenko from Kyiv's Transfiguration Cathedral. Of course, there also are the translations of the non-canonical groups and of the UGCC.
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2011, 06:12:03 PM »

For example, in Kyiv, right across the Kyiv-Pechers'k Lavra, there is a small monastery that belongs to the UOC-KP, and it has a great bookstore. The bookstore is hard to miss, because it is clearly visible from any public vehicle that passes by. A number of times, I was asked by my friends from the UOC-MP to send them xerox copies of the Ukrainian Orthodox prayer books or the text of the Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian. I always did that, but I could not abstain from commenting that all these materials are readily available from a huge, well-lit, neat bookstore that is right actoss the street from their main sanctuary. They said, oh, you know, we admit, these materials are certainly available from there, but... we want to obtain them from the canonical Orthodox jurisdiction (the prayerbook I have at home is from UOC-USA). Another example: the UAOC Web site contains the full text of the Divine Liturgy by St. John Chrysostom in Ukrainian. Again, when my "canonical" friends ask me to send them this Ukrainian translation, I refer them to that site, and they "blush" and say, "no, we cannot open it, we prefer something from a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction."

Is there a standardized Ukrainian set of liturgical texts or is it a hodgepodge mess like English?  I'll have to do some investigating, as all of my church materials at home are in Church Slavonic.  Something in a comprehensible modern language would be preferable.     

I believe it's rather standard. There are no differences in the texts of prayers or services that I read in my UOC-USA prayerbook and in the texts I see on the UAOC page.
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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2011, 10:53:17 PM »

ialmisry,
The EP is not part of the Greek state in any kind,
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
(sorry, don't have a euro sign)
Gotta eat.

You are trying to kid the wrong person.  I know about the involvement of the Greek government/Church in the affairs of the Patriarchate of Alexandria and of Jerusalem quite well and intimately, and my experience in and about Constantinople gives no evidence that the EP is odd man out.  In fact, somewhere here someone posted links to the EU/Greek info on the support given to the EP via Greece's membership in the EU.  That's on top of the fact that most of the flock of the EP (the New Lands, Crete, etc.) are within the Greek state.  Who are you trying to fool?

Btw, article three of the Greek Constitution:
Quote
The prevailing religion in Greece is that of the Eastern Orthodox Church of Christ. The Orthodox Church of Greece, acknowledging our Lord Jesus Christ as its head, is inseparably united in doctrine with the Great Church of Christ in Constantinople and with every other Church of Christ of the same doctrine, observing unwaveringly, as they do, the holy apostolic and synodal canons and sacred traditions. It is autocephalous and is administered by the Holy Synod of serving Bishops and the Permanent Holy Synod originating thereof and assembled as specified by the Statutory Charter of the Church in compliance with the provisions of the Patriarchal Tome of June 29, 1850 and the Synodal Act of September 4, 1928.
2. The ecclesiastical regime existing in certain districts of the State [i.e. the ones directly under Constantinople] shall not be deemed contrary to the provisions of the preceding paragraph.
3. The text of the Holy Scripture shall be maintained unaltered. Official translation of the text into any other form of language, without prior sanction by the Autocephalous Church of Greece and the Great Church of Christ in Constantinople, is prohibited.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS238US238&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=199884l214587l0l214766l60l44l2l20l21l3l398l4367l0.8.10.2l21l0&hl=en&q=cache:GDkG_1h7SocJ:http://www.hri.org/docs/syntagma/artcl25.html+greek+constitution+Great+Church+of+Christ&ct=clnk

St. Paul wrote about not muzzling the ox  that treads the grain.   It is not a crime nor a sin that a patriarchate has support, just what it does with that and what strings are attached and moral questions of the sources (yes, Heorhij, I know of your accusations).  I'm not getting into that.  I am just stating a plain fact that you don't go to a gun fight with a knife, particularly when your cutlery supplier has gone out of business.

neither has he maligned the EOC-MP.

somewhere here I posted statements made at the time of the visit to Estonia, telling Met. Kornelius, the Estonian bred, born, baptized, ordained and consecrated, Estonian speaking and confessing in Soviet times (serving time IIRC) Metropolitan of Tallin and All Estonia, installed by the Estonian bred, born, baptized, ordained and consecrated and Estonian speaking Patriarch of Moscow, who has jurisdiction over Estonia "from the very beginning under his hand and the hand of his predecessors," (canon 8 of Ephesus) Met. Kornellius being told to get out of town; the EP glorifying the previous glorified St. Platon-isn't that like a second baptism-etc. and other anti-canonical antics and statements (though most of the statements were made through local mouthpieces-neither EP Bartholomew nor his Congolese Cypriot Metropolitan of Estonia, unlike both Met. Kornelius and Pat. Alexei of blessed memory, speak Estonian).

And actually, I dont see why you want the EP to concelebrate with non-canonical groups.
I don't: if HAH did, he should be removed from the diptychs.

As long as they are non-canonical, the normal way is to help them become canonical,

and that what Pat. Kyril and Met. Volodymyr are doing.  And it is their purview, not the Phanar's.

and THEN concelebrate.
once they are reconciled to the UOC, they would be free to do so.

Nektarios,
I am not aware of any kind of standard. Under the EP, UOC-USA and UOC-Canada seem to use different texts... in the UOC-MP, there are the versions of bishop Jonathan of Kherson and most recently, of my friend Fr. Andriy Dudchenko from Kyiv's Transfiguration Cathedral. Of course, there also are the translations of the non-canonical groups and of the UGCC.
This is something that Met. Volodymyr and his Holy Synod has not yet addressed which they should.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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