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Author Topic: Muhammad turned from monastery?  (Read 1537 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 01, 2011, 08:38:55 PM »

Someone mentioned some time ago about Muhammad being turned away from a Christian monastery for bad theology. I couldn't find anything on it. Does anyone have any sources on this?
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« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 01:36:30 AM »

Harry Turtledove had a fascinating 'what if' historical scenario where Muhammed actually was admitted to the monastery he wanted to enter but was shunned. Turtledove, who is himself a Byzantinologist, had found a reference to Muhammed wanting to enter a monstery when he was younger but he was denied admission due to his poor understanding of Christianity and concern he would disrupt the monastic community.

Found the thread.

Does anyone know more about this. Fr. Chris?
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 07:07:56 PM »

Harry Turtledove had a fascinating 'what if' historical scenario where Muhammed actually was admitted to the monastery he wanted to enter but was shunned. Turtledove, who is himself a Byzantinologist, had found a reference to Muhammed wanting to enter a monstery when he was younger but he was denied admission due to his poor understanding of Christianity and concern he would disrupt the monastic community.

Found the thread.

Does anyone know more about this. Fr. Chris?

The thread pretty well sus up what I know of it.

Harry Turtledove, a Byzantinologist who writes alternative historicla fiction, wrote a short story based on this potential event.
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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 07:23:48 PM »

So was Muhammad actually shunned from a monastery, or is it entirely false?
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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 08:27:16 PM »

--Subscribed--

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« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 10:58:49 PM »

I don't know if it happened or not but it is possible. They've found the remains of monasteries in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait and places in that area.
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« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2011, 11:10:36 PM »

To add another question, were there Nestorian monasteries at that time as well? From what I've read here, Muhammad got into contact with Nestorians which is how he got his theology for the Qur'ran.
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« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2011, 11:16:03 PM »

To add another question, were there Nestorian monasteries at that time as well? From what I've read here, Muhammad got into contact with Nestorians which is how he got his theology for the Qur'ran.
Yes there were Nestorian monasteries in the area and yes this is what I had heard too. The Monk's name was (if I am not mistaken) Bahira. If I can provide a reference for you, I will. I think that Islam and Nestorianism are alike in that they both emphasize the distinction and separation from God and His creation. In the same way Nestorius' divided the Divine and human in Jesus Christ, likewise Muslims cannot fathom God becoming man.
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« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 03:10:23 AM »

According to the Islamic tradition, Muhammad met a Nestorian monk named Bahira in his youth: http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/B/bahira.html

However, I personally do not think that the theory concerning Muhammad's eagerness for admission into a monastery is plausible.
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« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 08:01:02 AM »

I am not sure but I remember hearing a story about Muhammed some time ago. The story says that Muhammed and some of his friends agreed that they would all try to find the true faith. All the other friends except one ended up converting to Christianity while Muhammed eventually ended up founding islam.
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« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2011, 07:02:42 PM »

Sounds about as valid as the "Jesus is Horus" conspiracy theories.
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« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 07:27:23 PM »

I don't know if it happened or not but it is possible. They've found the remains of monasteries in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait and places in that area.
True.

If only he had converted and become a monk - a lot of things would be different.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2011, 07:29:48 PM »

Sounds about as valid as the "Jesus is Horus" conspiracy theories.
dont yuh knuw dat duh deity of jezuz was invented at duh council of Nicea?

OK, sorry, but I have always wanted to say that! angel
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« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2011, 08:04:50 PM »

I don't know if it happened or not but it is possible. They've found the remains of monasteries in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait and places in that area.
True.

If only he had converted and become a monk - a lot of things would be different.  Wink

Yeah...Harry Turtledove wrote a short story about that!  Wink
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« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2011, 08:16:50 PM »

Here is a reference to that short story I was thinking about:

Quote
The title story is one of the more traditional alternate histories to appear in the book and, although it is not included in Agent of Byzantium, it does set up that entire story sequence, making Mohammed a monk gifted with the ability to write beautiful hymns. Although the story only begins to look at the results of such a world, the effects can be seen in "Pillar of Cloud, Pillar of Fire," the last of the Basil Argyros stories in which Turtledove's spy visits the Great Library of Alexandria. If you haven't read Agent of Byzantium, this story gives a good example of the stories which appear in that book.


Turtledove oftentimes would research a defining point of history and then start from that point having the opposite conclusion than in our world.

Another interesting short story he wrote was one where the Bulgar princes chose Islam instead of Christianity, thier reasoning being that in Islam they could always drink in secret but have many wives openly, which was much easier to manage their vices than with Christianity.
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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2011, 12:31:12 PM »

Wasn't Muhammad's uncle a monk or a bishop or something?
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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2011, 08:17:51 PM »

Mohamed was a Vatican agent, sent by the Satanic Vatican to create a Mary worshiping cult in the Arabian desert. He double-crossed them, and started a new religion.
    Thank God for my Jack Chick tracts, they are so biblical...
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« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2011, 08:42:58 PM »

Anyone who is interested in the Bahira legend would do well to read Sidney H. Griffith's "Syriac Writers on Muslims and the Religious Challenge of Islam" (published 1994 by St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute, India, as vol. 7 of their "Moran 'Etho" series on Syriac Christian topics). It is not quite as simple as the popular legend goes, and indeed the Christian and Muslim versions differ greatly in their content and meaning/use (as you would expect).

From the sources I've read on the pre-Islamic and early Islamic Middle East, I don't think Sargus Bahira was necessarily the source of Muhammad's warped doctrine (or if he was, his assignment to this or that sect says more about the writer portraying him than anything else). No doubt, he could played a certain role (again, depending on whose versions you're reading), but it seems far more likely to me that the offending teacher would've been an Ebionite monk, and the Ebionites were Judaizers of varying Gnostic tendencies, not Nestorians.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 08:46:53 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2011, 10:09:15 PM »

Mohamed was a Vatican agent, sent by the Satanic Vatican to create a Mary worshiping cult in the Arabian desert. He double-crossed them, and started a new religion.
    Thank God for my Jack Chick tracts, they are so biblical...
There's a Chick Tract that actually says that?! laugh
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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2011, 10:26:39 PM »

Here it is, Volnutt, though I refuse to be held responsible for the brain cells you will endanger by reading this bullchick...

(I seem to remember an earlier one in black and white, too, but I couldn't find it.)
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2011, 10:27:28 PM »

Mohamed was a Vatican agent, sent by the Satanic Vatican to create a Mary worshiping cult in the Arabian desert. He double-crossed them, and started a new religion.
    Thank God for my Jack Chick tracts, they are so biblical...
There's a Chick Tract that actually says that?! laugh
Honestly I believe so; however, I think this is really recorded in Chick's longer publication, "The Prophet"
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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2011, 10:51:51 PM »

Here it is, Volnutt, though I refuse to be held responsible for the brain cells you will endanger by reading this bullchick...

(I seem to remember an earlier one in black and white, too, but I couldn't find it.)
Thanks.

Wow, I didn't know Muhammad had an Iranian flag! Oh goody, with Alberto Rivera you know it's true...
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« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2011, 11:33:00 PM »

lol when I read' learn how the papacy started Islam'  Roll Eyes that was it for me, i will pitch this one with 'the pope is the anti Christ' section on my shelf for the brouhaha of the deluded.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 11:38:46 PM by Hiwot » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2011, 11:35:31 PM »

Here it is, Volnutt, though I refuse to be held responsible for the brain cells you will endanger by reading this bullchick...

(I seem to remember an earlier one in black and white, too, but I couldn't find it.)
Thanks.

Wow, I didn't know Muhammad had an Iranian flag! Oh goody, with Alberto Rivera you know it's true...

Just for the record, I do not think that is the Iranian flag, but looks a little like the Algerian one
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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2011, 11:52:58 PM »

Oh.
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2011, 09:27:16 AM »

lol when I read' learn how the papacy started Islam'  Roll Eyes that was it for me, i will pitch this one with 'the pope is the anti Christ' section on my shelf for the brouhaha of the deluded.

I think he was joking?

...I hope so.
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2011, 10:27:33 AM »

hiwot is joking, she doesn't normally believe rubbish!
if u want to read more, i suggest dzheremi's links as he is a good scholar.
i also heard he met with arians in the arabian desert (no, not dzheremi!) and that influenced his religion.

if u want to read a good summary on the differences between Christianity and his religion, try this:
http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/jehovwit/index.html
the beliefs of JWs and arians are quite similar, and the Bible verses here can be used with anyone who denies the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2011, 11:00:11 AM »

Hahaha...Mabsoota, since the only actual link I've provided in this thread is to Jack Chick, I'm pretty sure I'm the opposite of a "good scholar"! Grin But, yes, Griffith is a good scholar. The St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute does not publish junk, and Griffith quotes from many primary sources and scholarly translations in his work. I just can't find a complete link to the booklet in question online. Here is one chapter of it from Hugoye (CUA's journal of Syriac Studies), though it deals with the famous disputation of the Arab and the monk of Bet Hale, the earliest known Syriac document to confront Islam on doctrinal (rather than apocalyptic) grounds. The Bahira legend, with particular reference to the contrast between the Christian and the Islamic versions, is dealt with elsewhere in the same work.
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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2011, 12:40:38 PM »

lol when I read' learn how the papacy started Islam'  Roll Eyes that was it for me, i will pitch this one with 'the pope is the anti Christ' section on my shelf for the brouhaha of the deluded.

I think he was joking?

...I hope so.

LOL thank you Mabsoota my dear for the vote of confidence and understanding what I meant.
Hi Aindriu, I do not know forsure what you thought I meant dear, the thing is, it's just infuriating to me when i hear some 'out there' remarks by those self proclaimed groups of Christianity  whose church's history for  some is as young as <5 years  saying stupid stuff like' the pope is the Antichrist' and want to be taken seriously. I have great respect for the Roman Catholic church, her bishops and clergy and it is my strong belief that any disagreements one has or might have  with the dogmas and canons or the day today administration and management , with the RCC can be addressed without getting that ugly by throwing unfounded and outrageous remarks like that. IMO if one starts to call the pope such things , it only highlights the person's delusions and is to be avoided like the plague if one expects to retain whatever level of sanity one has.
so anyway, my comment was a reaction along those lines, to that link of Jick Trackts , dzheremi provided for volnutt with full disclosure i might add as to the danger of leaking some brain cells that can occur as a result of reading that silly stuff which masquerades as a scholarly article.
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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2011, 03:14:07 PM »

lol when I read' learn how the papacy started Islam'  Roll Eyes that was it for me, i will pitch this one with 'the pope is the anti Christ' section on my shelf for the brouhaha of the deluded.

I think he was joking?

...I hope so.

LOL thank you Mabsoota my dear for the vote of confidence and understanding what I meant.
Hi Aindriu, I do not know forsure what you thought I meant dear, the thing is, it's just infuriating to me when i hear some 'out there' remarks by those self proclaimed groups of Christianity  whose church's history for  some is as young as <5 years  saying stupid stuff like' the pope is the Antichrist' and want to be taken seriously. I have great respect for the Roman Catholic church, her bishops and clergy and it is my strong belief that any disagreements one has or might have  with the dogmas and canons or the day today administration and management , with the RCC can be addressed without getting that ugly by throwing unfounded and outrageous remarks like that. IMO if one starts to call the pope such things , it only highlights the person's delusions and is to be avoided like the plague if one expects to retain whatever level of sanity one has.
so anyway, my comment was a reaction along those lines, to that link of Jick Trackts , dzheremi provided for volnutt with full disclosure i might add as to the danger of leaking some brain cells that can occur as a result of reading that silly stuff which masquerades as a scholarly article.
selam hun Smiley

I meant I think sprtslvr1973 was joking with the Vatican comment.
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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2011, 06:54:48 PM »

^^ oh I see, angel
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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2011, 11:37:36 AM »

Hahaha...Mabsoota, since the only actual link I've provided in this thread is to Jack Chick, I'm pretty sure I'm the opposite of a "good scholar"! Grin But, yes, Griffith is a good scholar. The St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute does not publish junk, and Griffith quotes from many primary sources and scholarly translations in his work. I just can't find a complete link to the booklet in question online. Here is one chapter of it from Hugoye (CUA's journal of Syriac Studies), though it deals with the famous disputation of the Arab and the monk of Bet Hale, the earliest known Syriac document to confront Islam on doctrinal (rather than apocalyptic) grounds. The Bahira legend, with particular reference to the contrast between the Christian and the Islamic versions, is dealt with elsewhere in the same work.
No. Griffith is an excellent scholar.
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