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Author Topic: Abortion from the babies point of view ! WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT  (Read 20636 times) Average Rating: 0
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orthonorm
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« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2011, 08:47:51 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.
1.  Gebre is not the one who brought up this "content/form" dichotomy. I am.
2.  How is it rubbish?

Truly all due respect, srsly, I don't care so much about getting into ontology right now, I am interested in hearing from Gebre what the content is, and who doesn't agree with it here.

Again, I tire of the righteous, vague, finger pointing.

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« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2011, 08:48:44 PM »

In response to PtA:


Sin of that magnitude is not moved by the cool breezes of rational thought.

Sin of that magnitude is moved by horror and compunction for that horror.

The pictures and words are not meant to promote calm logic but the realization of the horror of the act.

That approach to sin has its place. 

Most of us are too cool to really face the horror of our sin.


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« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2011, 08:50:13 PM »

In response to PtA:


Sin of that magnitude is not moved by the cool breezes of rational thought.

Sin of that magnitude is moved by horror and compunction for that horror.

The pictures and words are not meant to promote calm logic but the realization of the horror of the act.

That approach to sin has its place. 

Most of us are too cool to really face the horror of our sin.


Okay, I can read. Why do you need to quote one of your own posts just to direct it as a reply to me?
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« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2011, 08:51:01 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.
1.  Gebre is not the one who brought up this "content/form" dichotomy. I am.
2.  How is it rubbish?

Truly all due respect, srsly, I don't care so much about getting into ontology right now, I am interested in hearing from Gebre what the content is, and who doesn't agree with it here.

Again, I tire of the righteous, vague, finger pointing.



Can you state plainly your objection?

Is it simply that the message is posted where it is posted?

Are you suggesting that no one here could benefit from it because...?

Is that all that's bothering you.

I am still confused by what you are doing.  It seems to me to be an over-reaction.
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« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2011, 09:13:57 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.
1.  Gebre is not the one who brought up this "content/form" dichotomy. I am.
2.  How is it rubbish?

Truly all due respect, srsly, I don't care so much about getting into ontology right now, I am interested in hearing from Gebre what the content is, and who doesn't agree with it here.

Again, I tire of the righteous, vague, finger pointing.



Can you state plainly your objection?

Is it simply that the message is posted where it is posted?

Are you suggesting that no one here could benefit from it because...?

Is that all that's bothering you.

I am still confused by what you are doing.  It seems to me to be an over-reaction.

In this post? Gebre patented approach of his passive-aggressive method of argument and insult.

I want to know in his words what the "content" is of the OP and who specifically (name names) he thinks disagrees with that content.

Seems pretty straightforward.

But your question is about something else. Maybe I will for the x time explain why I hold self-righteous and "pious" folks feet to the fire concerning certain issues.

Probably won't. Since no one remembers, it seems repeating it again to be pointless.

But it doesn't take much work to do well, what has been done here.

Someone ought to do it.

As for an "over reaction", not so much. I play internetz one way, others another. And there has been a rising tide of certain stuff around here for a while that has been begging to be squelched. And yes that is intentionally vague as it would go OT.

The squelching time has come.

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« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2011, 09:20:36 PM »



The squelching time has come.



I don't see what you see.  But this may be the wrong topic in which to do it in any event.

Let's not be too hard on one another.  Truly.

M.

PS: I see you've been warned.  What for I don't know but I don't want to add to that.  Forgive.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 09:22:25 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2011, 09:32:27 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.
1.  Gebre is not the one who brought up this "content/form" dichotomy. I am.
2.  How is it rubbish?

Truly all due respect, srsly, I don't care so much about getting into ontology right now, I am interested in hearing from Gebre what the content is, and who doesn't agree with it here.

Again, I tire of the righteous, vague, finger pointing.



Can you state plainly your objection?

Is it simply that the message is posted where it is posted?

Are you suggesting that no one here could benefit from it because...?

Is that all that's bothering you.

I am still confused by what you are doing.  It seems to me to be an over-reaction.

In this post? Gebre patented approach of his passive-aggressive method of argument and insult.
Glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

I want to know in his words what the "content" is of the OP and who specifically (name names) he thinks disagrees with that content.

Seems pretty straightforward.

But your question is about something else. Maybe I will for the x time explain why I hold self-righteous and "pious" folks feet to the fire concerning certain issues.

Probably won't. Since no one remembers, it seems repeating it again to be pointless.

But it doesn't take much work to do well, what has been done here.

Someone ought to do it.

As for an "over reaction", not so much. I play internetz one way, others another. And there has been a rising tide of certain stuff around here for a while that has been begging to be squelched. And yes that is intentionally vague as it would go OT.

The squelching time has come.
Challenged? Yes.

Feet held to the fire? Yes.

Squelched? No. People have just as much right to say stupid stuff as you have to call them on their stupid stuff. Despite what you may think and what others on another stupid thread may say about you, you're not the emperor of this forum.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 09:33:50 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2011, 09:35:55 PM »

I do not object to the fact that this photo was put on the board, I object to the fact that this photo was put at the very top of a thread, without any warning of any kind.  People should not be subjected to these shock tactics - especially people who oppose abortion. 
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« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2011, 09:35:55 PM »

Thank you for psoting this JR. It is conveys a powerful and necessary truth. While some may be upset because this tragic image merely upsets their appetite, others will have their hearts broken and be moved to tears and then to action. It is really sad that professing Orthodox Christians would have any reaction to this anti-abortion message other than deep sorrow and wholehearted support for the truth you have conveyed. Please be assured that there are many of us who are behind you 100%. Don't let these heartless negative reactions discourage you. These same people wouldn't be nearly so callous if it were their own childern who had been brutally murdered. The Judgment awaits us all, and we will no doubt be judged by how we treat "the least of these".

Thank you brother!

Selam

My cousin recently killed himself.  Had he done so with a gun, should I have posted a picture on the forum of him with blood on the floor around him, and with a bullet hole through his head, in an effort to raise awareness for suicide?  No one on here has supported abortion despite what your self-righteous arguments claim.  Rather, we've said that this is an infantile way to denounce abortions.
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« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2011, 09:40:13 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.

I truly don't follow.

Then we are even because your reactions have me at a total loss...and the intensity of your negative reaction, to the point of being personally insulting,  to anyone pressing the idea that the images are as effective as the words is strange to me.

I would not have numbered you among the squeamish.
It doesn't strike me as squeamishness as much as it does distaste for poorly-written arguments rooted entirely in appeal to emotion.

Then we are back to my saying that the intent of the images and text is NOT to establish an academic argument against abortion.

Sin of that magnitude is not moved by the cool breezes of rational thought.

Sin of that magnitude is moved by horror and compunction for that horror.

The pictures and words are not meant to promote calm logic but the realization of the horror of the act.

That approach to sin has its place. 

Most of us are too cool to really face the horror of our sin.

I was NOT suggesting that orthonorm's reaction was "squeamishness" in a girlie sense...heh! I'll get shot for that one...but in the sense of a resistance...a violent resistance...to the harshness of the reality of abortion.

I am trying to understand that reaction.  I would not have predicted that from him.
While we mustn't neglect to be able to address it rationally, it's true that abortion should bring out a certain indigence from us. Something like what's in the OP, crafted to manipulate emotions largely by projecting a thought process onto a fetus that a fetus couldn't possess, seems to betray the intense gravity the issue merits.
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« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2011, 09:46:36 PM »



The squelching time has come.



I don't see what you see.  But this may be the wrong topic in which to do it in any event.

Let's not be too hard on one another.  Truly.

M.

PS: I see you've been warned.  What for I don't know but I don't want to add to that.  Forgive.


Forgive what?

You are always welcome EM!

You have yet to offend or harm me. Nor would you add to anything. I know the game around here. The fact I went 4000+ without ever being modded is a miracle.

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« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2011, 09:48:08 PM »

Squelched? No. People have just as much right to say stupid stuff as you have to call them on their stupid stuff. Despite what you may think and what others on another stupid thread may say about you, you're not the emperor of this forum.

And yet the squelching I will do.
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« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2011, 09:50:48 PM »

Squelched? No. People have just as much right to say stupid stuff as you have to call them on their stupid stuff. Despite what you may think and what others on another stupid thread may say about you, you're not the emperor of this forum.

And yet the squelching I will do.
No, you won't. police
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« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2011, 09:55:53 PM »

Squelched? No. People have just as much right to say stupid stuff as you have to call them on their stupid stuff. Despite what you may think and what others on another stupid thread may say about you, you're not the emperor of this forum.

And yet the squelching I will do.
No, you won't. police

Already happening.

Vacuity abhors a vacuum and I am holding the hoover.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 09:56:50 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2011, 10:18:02 PM »

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

I have been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was deeply moved by the photos of mass graves and even just the piles of shoes. How is that not the same thing.

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.

Yes, the Church should listen to and help these poor mothers. That is our great failure in this issue. But don't venture to mitigate the horror of what this holocaust actually is—nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions of human persons.

A zygote is not a human person in the exact same way a mother of five is. It is a living human zygote. It should be protected so one day it can become a mother of five but until you see that there is a fundamental difference your language  wont persuade and your  tactics wont work.

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« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2011, 10:24:59 PM »

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

I have been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was deeply moved by the photos of mass graves and even just the piles of shoes. How is that not the same thing.

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.

Yes, the Church should listen to and help these poor mothers. That is our great failure in this issue. But don't venture to mitigate the horror of what this holocaust actually is—nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions of human persons.

A zygote is not a human person in the exact same way a mother of five is. It is a living human zygote. It should be protected so one day it can become a mother of five but until you see that there is a fundamental difference your language  wont persuade and your  tactics wont work.



Well on this outta the box thinking I admire your chutzpah to keep putting it out there.

There are more than a few posters here I would like to see discuss their ideas about personhood from conception till death from old age. More than a little nuance happening here and there on this board that could be fruitful to get into a room together.

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« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2011, 10:28:43 PM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
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« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2011, 10:45:12 PM »

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

I have been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was deeply moved by the photos of mass graves and even just the piles of shoes. How is that not the same thing.

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.

Yes, the Church should listen to and help these poor mothers. That is our great failure in this issue. But don't venture to mitigate the horror of what this holocaust actually is—nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions of human persons.

A zygote is not a human person in the exact same way a mother of five is. It is a living human zygote. It should be protected so one day it can become a mother of five but until you see that there is a fundamental difference your language  wont persuade and your  tactics wont work.



I'm sorry, but you're wrong.



Was Christ not Incarnate at the moment of the Annunciation? This icon says he was. We obviously don't know if He was a zygote proper, since we don't know how the Theotokos conceived, but He certainly was an embryo. If God became an embryo, then an embryo bears His divine image and by any standard is a human person.

The God-Man is the God-Man, regardless of what stage of development He was in. Your theory necessarily requires that Christ was not fully Man from the moment of the Annunciation, but He developed into full humanity. That is not compatible with the Church's teachings on the Incarnation. Nor is it compatible with the above icon, which shows Christ, fully God and fully Man at the moment of the Incarnation.

And so: an embryo is biologically human, genetically unique from its parents, and bears the image of God, considering Christ was fully Man as an embryo. I don't see how anything beyond that is relevant.

I place human life on the highest pedestal, and I do not draw degrees in humanity, because humanity does not develop or change. It is human or it isn't. Human life is of ultimate worth, period. If that's a "tactic" to you, I'm sorry, but we have irreconcilable differences.

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« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2011, 10:45:40 PM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?
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« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2011, 10:53:42 PM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?

Prepare for rapture! The end is near! Great post!
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« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2011, 10:54:27 PM »

Thank you for saying that PeterTheAleut, that is precisely what I was thinking/feeling. I am completely against abortion. But I can never align myself with anyone that can take a photo of someone that they consider a person, and use it to promote their means/goal. That is making that baby a thing, an object- rather than treating the baby with love and respect.

For the record there are actually photographers that specialize in taking photos of stillborn babies. They are beautiful photos that are lovingly done. I don't object to photos of dead babies as a whole (although it does bring a very emotional response). I object to photos of dead babies that are done purely for sensationalist/propaganda reasons.
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« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2011, 11:22:32 PM »

Thank you for saying that PeterTheAleut, that is precisely what I was thinking/feeling. I am completely against abortion. But I can never align myself with anyone that can take a photo of someone that they consider a person, and use it to promote their means/goal. That is making that baby a thing, an object- rather than treating the baby with love and respect.

Thanks for posting these thoughts, with which I agree. I too, have suffered a miscarriage.
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« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2011, 11:34:49 PM »

What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?

Agreed! That is the content/form issue right there. Content: human lives destroyed daily, unjustly. Form: photograph of a dead fetus, with questionable link to an abortion, for the sole effect of causing a gut response.

It would seem that the right response to this picture would be to pray for the baby. Not to post it to internetz.
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« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2011, 11:45:04 PM »

Anyone else object to the fetishization of the unjust killing of babies?

Yes, they are innocent. But if I recall Christ's teachings, it the violation of innocence which is the great crime against the innocent. Scandalizing the little ones...

I suggest it is a greater crime to cause a young person, by one's own perversion of soul, to fall into sin, then to end that innocent life.

Quote from: Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

No sin here is involved on the part of the innocent, and no harm is done to innocence.

We might surmise that the greatest harm is in fact done to themselves by those who perform, pay for, insist on, and have abortions. A father who forces his daughter to have an abortion might be sinning more against her... than against the aborted.

In order to avoid facing guilt, repentence may never occur.

Perhaps it is the secularized soul which permits abortion which is most in need of healing, and our prayers and action?

Perhaps it is not those killed in the "abortion mills" who are the greatest victims, but the women themselves?
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« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2011, 11:50:08 PM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


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« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2011, 11:54:38 PM »

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  

Civil rights protesters did what they did knowing the TV cameras were coming. The witness was in the revealing of violence. But they took the violence upon themselves. It was all tactical, 100%. It worked because, as Christ did, these people took the violence upon themselves, for the greater good.

Perhaps these aborted dead are being used, without the consent they cannot give. These dead do not belong to us.
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« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2011, 11:59:09 PM »

Thank you for saying that PeterTheAleut, that is precisely what I was thinking/feeling. I am completely against abortion. But I can never align myself with anyone that can take a photo of someone that they consider a person, and use it to promote their means/goal. That is making that baby a thing, an object- rather than treating the baby with love and respect.

Thanks for posting these thoughts, with which I agree. I too, have suffered a miscarriage.


Yeah, I've lost a child to miscarriage and the loss of my 11 week old daughter. What does that have to do with the unfounded and disgraceful accusation that the OP is objectifying this baby rather than treating it with love and respect? Contempt is a greater evil than hate, because hate at least involves an emotional connection with another human being, whereas contempt refuses to even acknowledge the humanity of another person. So, for you all to say that the OP is not revering this aborted human being with love and respect is slanderous, judgmental, and quite frankly shameful. Did you not read the words attached to the photo? If you did, then you should know that the OP is doing exactly the opposite of objectifying this poor baby; it is actually recognizing and highlighting its personhood. If it bothers you, too bad! In fact, why don't you stop using your own miscarriage as a cheap ploy to criticize the Pro-Life message of the OP? You're not the only one who has suffered the loss of a child.



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« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2011, 12:02:08 AM »

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

I have been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was deeply moved by the photos of mass graves and even just the piles of shoes. How is that not the same thing.

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.

Yes, the Church should listen to and help these poor mothers. That is our great failure in this issue. But don't venture to mitigate the horror of what this holocaust actually is—nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions of human persons.

A zygote is not a human person in the exact same way a mother of five is. It is a living human zygote. It should be protected so one day it can become a mother of five but until you see that there is a fundamental difference your language  wont persuade and your  tactics wont work.



Well on this outta the box thinking I admire your chutzpah to keep putting it out there.

There are more than a few posters here I would like to see discuss their ideas about personhood from conception till death from old age. More than a little nuance happening here and there on this board that could be fruitful to get into a room together.



The assumption that a human life is a human life is a human life doesnt hold up well.

How about very old age?

God forbid, but if you ever have to decide what to do with someone incapacitated in a nursing home you can quickly see your equal sign fade.

  How about a 92 year old who has lost all awareness, screams every few minutes and is starting to curl up in a fetal position? The Nursing home will want you to put in a feeding tube.  That will extend life a couple of years. The home stands to make at least $150,000 over two years.

 Don't put it in and the end will come in a few weeks. A life is a life right? Two more years is a long time. So jam in that feeding tube and get yourself another two years of not knowing who you are or where you are and let them feed you down to a puddle on the sheets because a life is a life is a life.
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« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2011, 12:08:13 AM »

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  

Civil rights protesters did what they did knowing the TV cameras were coming. The witness was in the revealing of violence. But they took the violence upon themselves. It was all tactical, 100%. It worked because, as Christ did, these people took the violence upon themselves, for the greater good.

Perhaps these aborted dead are being used, without the consent they cannot give. These dead do not belong to us.


If they don't belong to us, then who the hell are you to determine that they should be discarded and aborted without their tortuous deaths being exposed?

BTW, pure pragmatism is not the philosophy of Orthodox Christianity. We are not to live and act only in ways that will profit us personally or profit our pet cause. We are to live and act in Truth, and in doing so we must strive to be "wise as serpents and innocent as doves." It's not about doing what "works;" it's about doing what's right, what's in the best interest of our neighbor- regardless of what the world thinks.


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« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2011, 12:12:40 AM »

How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  

I wager it was precisely the white people whose lives would be changed the least by the enactment of civil rights who were the least opposed to it, whose meals were the least disturbed. Who found segregation, practical lack of suffrage, and all the injustices, to be simply tasteless.

Throwing these images around is like showing pictures of the Holocaust. They are a testament to the depravity of souls. I usually feel more horror for the Germans who had to go on living after they had committed the atrocities, than for the fate of the dead. Perhaps, though, those who despaired in the camps -- horror at their despair, and whatever sins of selfishness the camps would have encouraged.

The enshrining of the images of Holocaust victims, as with images of the aborted (which this image may not be), bring to mind the following:

Quote from: Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
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« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2011, 12:17:06 AM »

The assumption that a human life is a human life is a human life doesnt hold up well.

How about very old age?

God forbid, but if you ever have to decide what to do with someone incapacitated in a nursing home you can quickly see your equal sign fade.

  How about a 92 year old who has lost all awareness, screams every few minutes and is starting to curl up in a fetal position? The Nursing home will want you to put in a feeding tube.  That will extend life a couple of years. The home stands to make at least $150,000 over two years.

 Don't put it in and the end will come in a few weeks. A life is a life right? Two more years is a long time. So jam in that feeding tube and get yourself another two years of not knowing who you are or where you are and let them feed you down to a puddle on the sheets because a life is a life is a life.

Very old people are also human beings, shockingly enough. Even those who have lost their minds.

My beloved great-grandmother drove until she was in her 80s. In 2000 or something, she got into a car accident and lost her mind, and my grandparents spent vast amounts of money to care for her until they were nearly broke. She reposed in 2005 a shadow of her former self, shouting at people and soiling herself. But she was still a human and was given the right to live for as long as the Lord allowed her to. I am thankful for my grandparents' witness in this, and I will do the same for my parents someday, because they are human beings regardless.

No infanticide at the beginning of life, and no suicide or mercy killing on the other end of life. From conception to natural death. A human is a human. Period.
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« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2011, 12:19:06 AM »

How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  

I wager it was precisely the white people whose lives would be changed the least by the enactment of civil rights who were the least opposed to it, whose meals were the least disturbed. Who found segregation, practical lack of suffrage, and all the injustices, to be simply tasteless.

Throwing these images around is like showing pictures of the Holocaust. They are a testament to the depravity of souls. I usually feel more horror for the Germans who had to go on living after they had committed the atrocities, than for the fate of the dead. Perhaps, though, those who despaired in the camps -- horror at their despair, and whatever sins of selfishness the camps would have encouraged.

The images of Holocaust victims, as with images of the aborted (which this image may not be), bring to mind the following:

Quote from: Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.


It's unfortunate that you have formed such a false dichotomy in your thought process. Any and all human injustices, evils, and inhumanities vicitmize the oppressed as much as the oppressor. One of the biggest reaons I oppose abortion is because it scars and decimates the souls of the women who have abortions as well as all those involved in the facilitation of abortion. You should read "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon sometime; it is a powerful explanation of the the psychological damage incurred by those who systematically victimize and oppress other human beings.


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« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2011, 12:22:15 AM »

The assumption that a human life is a human life is a human life doesnt hold up well.

How about very old age?

God forbid, but if you ever have to decide what to do with someone incapacitated in a nursing home you can quickly see your equal sign fade.

  How about a 92 year old who has lost all awareness, screams every few minutes and is starting to curl up in a fetal position? The Nursing home will want you to put in a feeding tube.  That will extend life a couple of years. The home stands to make at least $150,000 over two years.

 Don't put it in and the end will come in a few weeks. A life is a life right? Two more years is a long time. So jam in that feeding tube and get yourself another two years of not knowing who you are or where you are and let them feed you down to a puddle on the sheets because a life is a life is a life.

Very old people are also human beings, shockingly enough. Even those who have lost their minds.

My beloved great-grandmother drove until she was in her 80s. In 2000 or something, she got into a car accident and lost her mind, and my grandparents spent vast amounts of money to care for her until they were nearly broke. She reposed in 2005 a shadow of her former self, shouting at people and soiling herself. But she was still a human and was given the right to live for as long as the Lord allowed her to. I will do the same for my parents someday, because they are human beings regardless.

No infanticide at the beginning of life, and no suicide or mercy killing on the other end of life. From conception to natural death. A human is a human. Period.


Yes. Thank you for this clarity my friend.



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« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2011, 12:32:34 AM »

It's unfortunate that you have formed such a false dichotomy in your thought process. Any and all human injustices, evils, and inhumanities vicitmize the oppressed as much as the oppressor. One of the biggest reaons I oppose abortion is because it scars and decimates the souls of the women who have abortions as well as all those involved in the facilitation of abortion. You should read "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon sometime; it is a powerful explanation of the the psychological damage incurred by those who systematically victimize and oppress other human beings.

I submit that you are wrong on the bolded point.

EDIT: Otherwise, I agree with you entirely.
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« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2011, 12:40:05 AM »

It's unfortunate that you have formed such a false dichotomy in your thought process. Any and all human injustices, evils, and inhumanities vicitmize the oppressed as much well as the oppressor. One of the biggest reaons I oppose abortion is because it scars and decimates the souls of the women who have abortions as well as all those involved in the facilitation of abortion. You should read "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon sometime; it is a powerful explanation of the the psychological damage incurred by those who systematically victimize and oppress other human beings.



I submit that you are wrong on the bolded point.

EDIT: Otherwise, I agree with you entirely.


I have ammended my statement above. I should have been a bit more careful with what I wrote. Thanks for your comments.


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« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2011, 12:55:14 AM »


It's unfortunate that you have formed such a false dichotomy in your thought process. Any and all human injustices, evils, and inhumanities vicitmize the oppressed as much well as the oppressor. One of the biggest reaons I oppose abortion is because it scars and decimates the souls of the women who have abortions as well as all those involved in the facilitation of abortion. You should read "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon sometime; it is a powerful explanation of the the psychological damage incurred by those who systematically victimize and oppress other human beings.

I agree with you.

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« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2011, 01:46:30 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.
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« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2011, 02:11:55 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.


Selam
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« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2011, 02:23:05 AM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.

I truly don't follow.

Then we are even because your reactions have me at a total loss...and the intensity of your negative reaction, to the point of being personally insulting,  to anyone pressing the idea that the images are as effective as the words is strange to me.

I would not have numbered you among the squeamish.
It doesn't strike me as squeamishness as much as it does distaste for poorly-written arguments rooted entirely in appeal to emotion.

Without commenting on this thread in particular, I feel compelled to say -- what is wrong with an appeal to emotion?

"Two times two is four" is not life, gentlemen. Sometimes our heads obscure the law which is written by the Divine Hand on our twisted and blackened hearts.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 02:25:56 AM by akimori makoto » Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2011, 02:45:29 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.
Gebre, would you do everyone a favor here? Your replies to me show no understanding of anything I just said, and you're projecting onto me motives I never had. Would you please leave this thread alone for a few days and come back after you've calmed down a bit? Maybe then we'll be able to reason together more effectively.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 02:52:51 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2011, 02:57:21 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!   


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.
Gebre, would you do everyone a favor here? Your replies to me show no understanding of anything I just said. Would you please leave this thread alone for a few days and come back after you've calmed down a bit? Maybe then we'll be able to reason together more effectively.


Ahh yes, the same old projection from you Peter. I am and have remained calm throughout this thread. Don't confuse impassioned and reasoned argument for lack of poise. I'm sure it would be very convenient for you if I bowed out of this important discussion, but I shall not do you that favor. Distract and divert all you want, and when you can't address the merits of the issue, then you can always resort to your warnings and moderation. But remember this, you have not persuaded a man simply because you have silenced him.

Yes, I have challenged your integrity. Please prove me wrong.


Selam
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Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
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« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2011, 04:15:32 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!   


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.
Gebre, would you do everyone a favor here? Your replies to me show no understanding of anything I just said. Would you please leave this thread alone for a few days and come back after you've calmed down a bit? Maybe then we'll be able to reason together more effectively.


Ahh yes, the same old projection from you Peter. I am and have remained calm throughout this thread. Don't confuse impassioned and reasoned argument for lack of poise. I'm sure it would be very convenient for you if I bowed out of this important discussion, but I shall not do you that favor. Distract and divert all you want, and when you can't address the merits of the issue, then you can always resort to your warnings and moderation. But remember this, you have not persuaded a man simply because you have silenced him.
Do you honestly think I'm trying to silence you? So much so that you would even insinuate that I would abuse my moderatorial authority in ways that, in all the years we've sparred with each other, I've never done toward you?

Do you not realize that you're now doing to me the very things you accuse me of doing to JR? Do you not realize that, in the very act of accusing me, you're engaging in the very same behaviors of which you accuse me?

Seriously, your irrationality is so far off the chart right now that I honestly don't know how to respond to you. I'm really dumbfounded at the moment. I honestly didn't expect you to blindside me the way you just did, and in response to comments I never directed to you. Can I possibly engage others in discussion here without you attacking me for things I never said?
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« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2011, 04:52:30 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.
Gebre, would you do everyone a favor here? Your replies to me show no understanding of anything I just said. Would you please leave this thread alone for a few days and come back after you've calmed down a bit? Maybe then we'll be able to reason together more effectively.


Ahh yes, the same old projection from you Peter. I am and have remained calm throughout this thread. Don't confuse impassioned and reasoned argument for lack of poise. I'm sure it would be very convenient for you if I bowed out of this important discussion, but I shall not do you that favor. Distract and divert all you want, and when you can't address the merits of the issue, then you can always resort to your warnings and moderation. But remember this, you have not persuaded a man simply because you have silenced him.
Do you honestly think I'm trying to silence you? So much so that you would even insinuate that I would abuse my moderatorial authority in ways that, in all the years we've sparred with each other, I've never done toward you?

Do you not realize that you're now doing to me the very things you accuse me of doing to JR? Do you not realize that, in the very act of accusing me, you're engaging in the very same behaviors of which you accuse me?

Seriously, your irrationality is so far off the chart right now that I honestly don't know how to respond to you. I'm really dumbfounded at the moment. I honestly didn't expect you to blindside me the way you just did, and in response to comments I never directed to you. Can I possibly engage others in discussion here without you attacking me for things I never said?



While your response is completely irrational, I do applaud you for refraining from doing what I expected you to do. Cudos.

Of course, as many times as you've accused me of playing the martyr, you sure seem to be palying that role very well here.

(You see Peter, I can play these games all day long. I don't think it's nearly as productive as actually dealing with the issues, but I'll fight fire with fire as long as you want me too. As ridiculous as your comments sometimes are, at least you still barely warrant a response.)


Selam



« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 04:53:27 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
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« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2011, 08:17:33 AM »

I have helped to save 3 babies from abortions using tactics like this by showing fellow Catholics in person.

The other post I made about the holocaust video shows people perspectives in how they view abortion, if you had watched all the way through, you would have known this! it is a valuable tool to use.

There was another Catholic, a close friend that had an abortion, she had the abortion anyway, but after the abortion she was so incensed with guilt of what she had done it was tearing me apart to watch her.

Same goes for the father, Have you ever spoken to a man whose partner has had an abortion? It kills him also to know what his partner has done. it breaks up families with the guilt.

Abortion is everything that is despicable to GOD !!!

I do my part, not only on forums, but out there in the real world!

To those of you who gave me words of encouragement, I am truly grateful to you !

To those of you that has personally attacked me, I forgive you as you do not know what it is you do! I hold no grudges...


“But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!” (Matthew 5:44, NLT)

The following words are so APT...!

Sometimes I
I just want to close my eyes
And act like everyone's alright
When I know they're not

This world needs God
But it's easier to stand and watch
I could say a prayer and just move on
Like nothing's wrong

But I refuse
'Cause I don't want to live like I don't care
I don't want to say another empty prayer

To sit around and wait for someone else
To do what God has called me to do myself
I could choose Not to move, but I refuse

I can hear the least of these
Crying out so desperately
And I know we are the hands and feet
Of You, oh God

So, if You say move
It's time for me to follow through
And do what I was made to do
Show them who You are
'Cause I don't want to live like I don't care
I don't want to say another empty prayer
I refuse

To stand and watch the weary and lost
Cry out for help
I refuse to turn my back
And try and act like all is well

I refuse to stay unchanged
To wait another day, to die to myself
I refuse to make one more excuse!


Taken from Josh Wilson - I Refuse.
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« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2011, 10:11:04 AM »

Anyone else object to the fetishization of the unjust killing of babies?

Yes, they are innocent. But if I recall Christ's teachings, it the violation of innocence which is the great crime against the innocent. Scandalizing the little ones...

I suggest it is a greater crime to cause a young person, by one's own perversion of soul, to fall into sin, then to end that innocent life.


Well that is how we got all the good Catholic and Orthodox bishops sitting on their thumbs during R v. W isn't it?  Just ask the right question and poof!!...50 some odd million lives dead.

I think we should all have to look at them in their dying.
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