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Author Topic: Abortion from the babies point of view ! WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT  (Read 21131 times) Average Rating: 0
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orthonorm
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« Reply #180 on: October 04, 2011, 02:53:01 PM »

Babies are being saved

http://www.40daysforlife.com/

Why don't the Orthodox join us?


I and many other Orthodox will gladly join our Catholic brethren in this endeavor. bless!


Selam


God bless you Selam !

You do realize Selam is not his name . . . although I could see why you might think so.
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« Reply #181 on: October 04, 2011, 02:54:47 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


No I am just parroting what you have said many times in the past about being a complete pacifist.

Either you are lying. Or you would let your children die.

Let me know which it is and I'll adjust what I say.
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« Reply #182 on: October 04, 2011, 02:55:41 PM »

I'm trying to think of something similarly witty and succinct for my signature phrase.

I have a response but it's pretty incoherent and filled with expletives, so I will refrain.
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« Reply #183 on: October 04, 2011, 02:57:34 PM »



I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


I actually lol'd at that. But seriously, he would probably say some mean things.


Well, take that chance if you want.


Selam
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« Reply #184 on: October 04, 2011, 03:00:39 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


No I am just parroting what you have said many times in the past about being a complete pacifist.

Either you are lying. Or you would let your children die.

Let me know which it is and I'll adjust what I say.


You can go back and read my thorough explanations of my pacifist position to see how off base you are in your cowardly caricatures of what I believe. Such straw man attacks are not profitable brother, nor are they Christian.


Selam
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 03:09:21 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #185 on: October 04, 2011, 03:06:36 PM »



I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


I actually lol'd at that. But seriously, he would probably say some mean things.


Well, take that chance if you want.


Selam

The difference of when you would act, verse I, is that my bubble is much bigger.
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« Reply #186 on: October 04, 2011, 03:07:40 PM »

So that's why I have learned not to judge and condemn the methods of others, even when they may be completely at odds with my own approach.

Give me a break. That's all you've been doing the last week, judging and condeming others because their approach differs from yours. The last post like this (out of the 6,194 you've made) talks about sites pulling your obscene picture, and making the psychoanalytically judgmental comment about it just being too much truth for them to handle. Whatever.

I know you're better than this brother. Do you have some solutions to offer? I hope that you do, and I'm open to hearing them. Attacking me with such unfounded judgment and condemnation isn't going to help save unborn lives. But to be honest, I can't tell if abortion bothers you or not. Maybe it doesn't. If not, then why not be honest enough to say that? But if abortion does bother you, then why not offer some personal suggestions as to how best deter abortion-minded women from killing their unborn children?

Really, isn't it better if all Orthodox Christians support one another in our efforts to save lives and bring an end to abortion? Seems much better than tearing others down for daring to expose the reality of this evil.


Selam
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 03:08:46 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #187 on: October 04, 2011, 03:14:05 PM »

Why isn't OK to kill an abortion doctor? Seriously.

Guy walking up to kill a kid standing next to me. I know he is going to do it. I can stop it by stopping his life.

Or the better analogy, the next door makes his living killing fives year olds no one wants anymore and bribes the authorities to do nothing about it.

And I kill him.

Is that OK?

My Priest I doubt is going to condemn me. I would have to repent. But how bad is such an act really, if you all truly believe the way you do?

I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.

Would you go out and track down an ax murderer in another town? I wouldn't. I would expect the police to track him down. If the police weren't doing it, then I would raise cain.

In a society where public opinion isn't on your side, there are better options to stopping abortion, i.e. making it illegal.

I am just holding people to the logical conclusion of their statements.

As I have proven elsewhere, if you are not killing doctors or being constantly jailed for at least monkey wrenching abortion clinics and the like the you truly don't think abortion is murder.

This goes to marc's shockingly sane and obvious pragmatic statement:

A life ain't a life ain't a life ain't a life.

Or we at least don't behave that way at all, even those screaming and trying to shock others into their own empty roar of righteousness.

My apologies to marc for including him in this rant. While I don't fully agree with his reasoning, I don't base my point on reason for the most part but rather behavioral observation, I think understand where he is coming from.

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« Reply #188 on: October 04, 2011, 03:20:32 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


No I am just parroting what you have said many times in the past about being a complete pacifist.

Either you are lying. Or you would let your children die.

Let me know which it is and I'll adjust what I say.


You can go back and read my thorough explanations of my pacifist position to see how off base you are in your cowardly caricatures of what I believe. Such straw man attacks are not profitable brother, nor are they Christian.


Selam


Save me the effort. Make your point here.

What would you do in my "thought" experiment.

This is one of the problems you have around here. You are blunt to a fault (polysemy intended).

Be clear here. Do you kill the guy going to kill your kids or who without any trouble kills others and no one else cares?

Yes or no.

Time to sharpen that bluntness to a real point.

I don't want to read your tome of previous posts to get a simple answer from you.

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« Reply #189 on: October 04, 2011, 03:20:59 PM »

You want honesty? Here we go. (I hope that I am not going to regret this. Don't worry, no expletives here.)

I hate abortion. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. I HATE ABORTION.

But you know what I also hate? I hate hunger. I hate abject poverty. I hate that children have drug addicts and alcoholics for parents. I hate that people live on the street and are reduced to begging for pennies. I hate that the United States welcomes some refugees who are fleeing political and religious persecution, but no one would help them.

I hated seeing orphans who became prostitutes because they felt it was their only choice. I hate seeing women in abusive relationships. I hate government sanctioned murder of the innocent.

I hate all of those things. And you know what? Here's more honesty. I am one person. One person. Seeing pictures like that makes me hate the world, hate that I have to work and raise money to pay off loans and feed my husband and me. It makes me feel useless.

I've been shown these pictures and have had people talk to me about me not knowing the evils of abortion. I KNOW. I also know that there are refugees and immigrants in my city who are completely homeless. I know that there are young children of immigrants who are put into bad schools and have a hard time getting around the system, and ultimately resort to gang life. I know that there are women who have been raped by their partners and are going through secret channels to change their identity and make sure that the man can never find them again.

This thread is entirely too much preaching to the choir, and like a punch in the face to me. I'm not littering this board with posts about the issues that I am most concerned about although I think there is a time and a place to discuss them and to take action.

Forgive me for only offering prayers for the moment and trying to be there for women who are struggling with pregnancy, as well as other actions that I will not specify here. I am not going to post fetus flags and lecture everyone because I am one person, and I, frankly, have other issues that I am more concerned with. And I can say the same for ANYONE. We all have our priorities and let's not pretend that we don't.

There, I said it. Abortion is not my number one concern, as much as I hate it. And I don't need a lecture about it. And frankly, all those images do is make me hate those who perpetrate it. I'll work with the "victims," thank you very much. That tears me up alone, and I even haven't had the time to do the work that I want to do, lately.

That is my struggle and God is the Judge of my soul.

And with that, I will bow out.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 03:21:35 PM by IsmiLiora » Logged

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« Reply #190 on: October 04, 2011, 03:24:35 PM »

So that's why I have learned not to judge and condemn the methods of others, even when they may be completely at odds with my own approach.

Give me a break. That's all you've been doing the last week, judging and condeming others because their approach differs from yours. The last post like this (out of the 6,194 you've made) talks about sites pulling your obscene picture, and making the psychoanalytically judgmental comment about it just being too much truth for them to handle. Whatever.

I know you're better than this brother. Do you have some solutions to offer? I hope that you do, and I'm open to hearing them. Attacking me with such unfounded judgment and condemnation isn't going to help save unborn lives. But to be honest, I can't tell if abortion bothers you or not. Maybe it doesn't. If not, then why not be honest enough to say that? But if abortion does bother you, then why not offer some personal suggestions as to how best deter abortion-minded women from killing their unborn children?

Really, isn't it better if all Orthodox Christians support one another in our efforts to save lives and bring an end to abortion? Seems much better than tearing others down for daring to expose the reality of this evil.


Selam


Help number two.

When more than a few people says stuff about you, you might want to listen.

I gave up a long time ago thinking I knew better how people view than they did.

Sometimes I change to accommodate others. Sometimes not. But I pretend that when more than a few folks call me x, that I cannot possibly be it.
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« Reply #191 on: October 04, 2011, 03:26:31 PM »

You want honesty? Here we go. (I hope that I am not going to regret this. Don't worry, no expletives here.)

I hate abortion. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. I HATE ABORTION.

But you know what I also hate? I hate hunger. I hate abject poverty. I hate that children have drug addicts and alcoholics for parents. I hate that people live on the street and are reduced to begging for pennies. I hate that the United States welcomes some refugees who are fleeing political and religious persecution, but no one would help them.

I hated seeing orphans who became prostitutes because they felt it was their only choice. I hate seeing women in abusive relationships. I hate government sanctioned murder of the innocent.

I hate all of those things. And you know what? Here's more honesty. I am one person. One person. Seeing pictures like that makes me hate the world, hate that I have to work and raise money to pay off loans and feed my husband and me. It makes me feel useless.

I've been shown these pictures and have had people talk to me about me not knowing the evils of abortion. I KNOW. I also know that there are refugees and immigrants in my city who are completely homeless. I know that there are young children of immigrants who are put into bad schools and have a hard time getting around the system, and ultimately resort to gang life. I know that there are women who have been raped by their partners and are going through secret channels to change their identity and make sure that the man can never find them again.

This thread is entirely too much preaching to the choir, and like a punch in the face to me. I'm not littering this board with posts about the issues that I am most concerned about although I think there is a time and a place to discuss them and to take action.

Forgive me for only offering prayers for the moment and trying to be there for women who are struggling with pregnancy, as well as other actions that I will not specify here. I am not going to post fetus flags and lecture everyone because I am one person, and I, frankly, have other issues that I am more concerned with. And I can say the same for ANYONE. We all have our priorities and let's not pretend that we don't.

There, I said it. Abortion is not my number one concern, as much as I hate it. And I don't need a lecture about it. And frankly, all those images do is make me hate those who perpetrate it. I'll work with the "victims," thank you very much. That tears me up alone, and I even haven't had the time to do the work that I want to do, lately.

That is my struggle and God is the Judge of my soul.

And with that, I will bow out.

Good for you!

PoM.

And not that drink for the rich healthy pretty people.

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« Reply #192 on: October 04, 2011, 03:42:10 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


No I am just parroting what you have said many times in the past about being a complete pacifist.

Either you are lying. Or you would let your children die.

Let me know which it is and I'll adjust what I say.


You can go back and read my thorough explanations of my pacifist position to see how off base you are in your cowardly caricatures of what I believe. Such straw man attacks are not profitable brother, nor are they Christian.


Selam


Save me the effort. Make your point here.

What would you do in my "thought" experiment.

This is one of the problems you have around here. You are blunt to a fault (polysemy intended).

Be clear here. Do you kill the guy going to kill your kids or who without any trouble kills others and no one else cares?

Yes or no.

Time to sharpen that bluntness to a real point.

I don't want to read your tome of previous posts to get a simple answer from you.




Then don't accuse me of things of which you have no knowledge. If you want to debate pacifism, there are other threads for that. This is about abortion. I have made my positions on abortion and pacifism very clear on this forum. So the straw man you build, you build beneath yourself.


Selam
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« Reply #193 on: October 04, 2011, 03:51:39 PM »

So that's why I have learned not to judge and condemn the methods of others, even when they may be completely at odds with my own approach.

Give me a break. That's all you've been doing the last week, judging and condeming others because their approach differs from yours. The last post like this (out of the 6,194 you've made) talks about sites pulling your obscene picture, and making the psychoanalytically judgmental comment about it just being too much truth for them to handle. Whatever.

I know you're better than this brother. Do you have some solutions to offer? I hope that you do, and I'm open to hearing them. Attacking me with such unfounded judgment and condemnation isn't going to help save unborn lives. But to be honest, I can't tell if abortion bothers you or not. Maybe it doesn't. If not, then why not be honest enough to say that? But if abortion does bother you, then why not offer some personal suggestions as to how best deter abortion-minded women from killing their unborn children?

Really, isn't it better if all Orthodox Christians support one another in our efforts to save lives and bring an end to abortion? Seems much better than tearing others down for daring to expose the reality of this evil.


Selam


Help number two.

When more than a few people says stuff about you, you might want to listen.

I gave up a long time ago thinking I knew better how people view than they did.

Sometimes I change to accommodate others. Sometimes not. But I pretend that when more than a few folks call me x, that I cannot possibly be it.

I solicit advice from people all the time, and from people with whom I have profound disagreements. I always need to be challenged and sharpened; after all, the Bible says that iron sharpens iron. I have much to learn, and I am grateful for the wonderful friends and mentors God has placed in my life. Believe me, I have been rightfully humbled and chastised by these dear people numerous times. But as for being cowed, bullied, and intimidated into submissive silence by a cabalistic clique of mutual sycophants, well I overcame that in the 6th grade.


Selam
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« Reply #194 on: October 04, 2011, 03:53:09 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


No I am just parroting what you have said many times in the past about being a complete pacifist.

Either you are lying. Or you would let your children die.

Let me know which it is and I'll adjust what I say.


You can go back and read my thorough explanations of my pacifist position to see how off base you are in your cowardly caricatures of what I believe. Such straw man attacks are not profitable brother, nor are they Christian.


Selam


Save me the effort. Make your point here.

What would you do in my "thought" experiment.

This is one of the problems you have around here. You are blunt to a fault (polysemy intended).

Be clear here. Do you kill the guy going to kill your kids or who without any trouble kills others and no one else cares?

Yes or no.

Time to sharpen that bluntness to a real point.

I don't want to read your tome of previous posts to get a simple answer from you.




Then don't accuse me of things of which you have no knowledge. If you want to debate pacifism, there are other threads for that. This is about abortion. I have made my positions on abortion and pacifism very clear on this forum. So the straw man you build, you build beneath yourself.


Selam


So you can't answer the question with a simple yes or no.

Gotcha!

It this some attempt to market your "book", because if that is the case, I totally get it, otherwise I think you are just simply and obviously dodging.

So I am gonna have to stick with my original and provocative deduction: you let your children die.

p.s. Get some sleep. All this pointless back and forth will be here when you awake! Unless the world ends.
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« Reply #195 on: October 04, 2011, 03:54:17 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


No I am just parroting what you have said many times in the past about being a complete pacifist.

Either you are lying. Or you would let your children die.

Let me know which it is and I'll adjust what I say.


You can go back and read my thorough explanations of my pacifist position to see how off base you are in your cowardly caricatures of what I believe. Such straw man attacks are not profitable brother, nor are they Christian.


Selam


Save me the effort. Make your point here.

What would you do in my "thought" experiment.

This is one of the problems you have around here. You are blunt to a fault (polysemy intended).

Be clear here. Do you kill the guy going to kill your kids or who without any trouble kills others and no one else cares?

Yes or no.

Time to sharpen that bluntness to a real point.

I don't want to read your tome of previous posts to get a simple answer from you.




Then don't accuse me of things of which you have no knowledge. If you want to debate pacifism, there are other threads for that. This is about abortion. I have made my positions on abortion and pacifism very clear on this forum. So the straw man you build, you build beneath yourself.


Selam

Gebre, do you ever wonder why so many of the threads you enter quickly become conversations about you?
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« Reply #196 on: October 04, 2011, 03:56:41 PM »

But as for being cowed, bullied, and intimidated into submissive silence by a cabalistic clique of mutual sycophants, well I overcame that in the 6th grade.


Selam


You do realize this is an internet forum? Me thinks that fifth grader is still alive and kicking. Or your martyr complex is greater and paler than I thought.

Way to take a STAND AGAINST ABORTION ON AN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN FORUM!

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« Reply #197 on: October 04, 2011, 03:57:54 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


No I am just parroting what you have said many times in the past about being a complete pacifist.

Either you are lying. Or you would let your children die.

Let me know which it is and I'll adjust what I say.


You can go back and read my thorough explanations of my pacifist position to see how off base you are in your cowardly caricatures of what I believe. Such straw man attacks are not profitable brother, nor are they Christian.


Selam


Save me the effort. Make your point here.

What would you do in my "thought" experiment.

This is one of the problems you have around here. You are blunt to a fault (polysemy intended).

Be clear here. Do you kill the guy going to kill your kids or who without any trouble kills others and no one else cares?

Yes or no.

Time to sharpen that bluntness to a real point.

I don't want to read your tome of previous posts to get a simple answer from you.




Then don't accuse me of things of which you have no knowledge. If you want to debate pacifism, there are other threads for that. This is about abortion. I have made my positions on abortion and pacifism very clear on this forum. So the straw man you build, you build beneath yourself.


Selam

Gebre, do you ever wonder why so many of the threads you enter quickly become conversations about you?

Yeah, they really should end up being about me.

I need to take notes. I've been on the wrong side of this all the time. //:=)

Gebre, props.
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« Reply #198 on: October 04, 2011, 04:01:28 PM »

Why isn't OK to kill an abortion doctor? Seriously.

Guy walking up to kill a kid standing next to me. I know he is going to do it. I can stop it by stopping his life.

Or the better analogy, the next door makes his living killing fives year olds no one wants anymore and bribes the authorities to do nothing about it.

And I kill him.

Is that OK?

My Priest I doubt is going to condemn me. I would have to repent. But how bad is such an act really, if you all truly believe the way you do?

I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.

Killing abortion doctors is wrong politically because abortion doctors are considered to be human.  Fetuses are given sub-human status by the State.  Plain and simple.  The State has a monopoly on violence.  Don't kill anyone who they say you cannot, or else they will fall upon you without remorse.  

Morally is another story.  I cannot find any justification for killing in the Bible except perhaps in the case of war since the Old Testament features Gideon, Sampson, Joshua, David, and the Maccabees, who all did their fair share of killing.  All the same, I think killing anyone goes in the face of Christ's example.  I think that an argument can be made that if you can kill in the defense of another, and that a fetus is a person with a soul...well, you can follow the logic.  Though I would never suggest you follow this logic, I think all killing is detestable.  I don't even like killing bugs and do it as rarely as possible.  Except flies and mosquitoes.  I would eradicate them given the chance.

Personally, I think we should pray for all parties involved.  The fetus probably needs the least prayer of the bunch.  What sins will they be judged for by Christ?  Somehow I doubt that unborn infants do a whole lot of idolatry, adultery, lust, bearing of false witness, murder, coveting, and so on in the womb.  I would suggest to abortion doctors that they keep in mind that Christ was nearly killed as an infant, and if they ever see Him carrying a millstone then the time for evacuation of the bowels has arrived.
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« Reply #199 on: October 04, 2011, 04:03:08 PM »

You want honesty? Here we go. (I hope that I am not going to regret this. Don't worry, no expletives here.)

I hate abortion. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. I HATE ABORTION.

But you know what I also hate? I hate hunger. I hate abject poverty. I hate that children have drug addicts and alcoholics for parents. I hate that people live on the street and are reduced to begging for pennies. I hate that the United States welcomes some refugees who are fleeing political and religious persecution, but no one would help them.

I hated seeing orphans who became prostitutes because they felt it was their only choice. I hate seeing women in abusive relationships. I hate government sanctioned murder of the innocent.

I hate all of those things. And you know what? Here's more honesty. I am one person. One person. Seeing pictures like that makes me hate the world, hate that I have to work and raise money to pay off loans and feed my husband and me. It makes me feel useless.

I've been shown these pictures and have had people talk to me about me not knowing the evils of abortion. I KNOW. I also know that there are refugees and immigrants in my city who are completely homeless. I know that there are young children of immigrants who are put into bad schools and have a hard time getting around the system, and ultimately resort to gang life. I know that there are women who have been raped by their partners and are going through secret channels to change their identity and make sure that the man can never find them again.

This thread is entirely too much preaching to the choir, and like a punch in the face to me. I'm not littering this board with posts about the issues that I am most concerned about although I think there is a time and a place to discuss them and to take action.

Forgive me for only offering prayers for the moment and trying to be there for women who are struggling with pregnancy, as well as other actions that I will not specify here. I am not going to post fetus flags and lecture everyone because I am one person, and I, frankly, have other issues that I am more concerned with. And I can say the same for ANYONE. We all have our priorities and let's not pretend that we don't.

There, I said it. Abortion is not my number one concern, as much as I hate it. And I don't need a lecture about it. And frankly, all those images do is make me hate those who perpetrate it. I'll work with the "victims," thank you very much. That tears me up alone, and I even haven't had the time to do the work that I want to do, lately.

That is my struggle and God is the Judge of my soul.

And with that, I will bow out.

I hate all these things too. And whenever I see a picture or read a discription of the horrors of hunger, homelessness, war, genocide, child abuse, or abortion, I don't get angry at the person who showed me the pictures or wrote the description. I only think how aweful it is that such atrocities are happening; and I realize that somehow, some way, I am responsible for them. It may disrupt my day, disturb my nice meal, or interrupt my pleasant thoughts, but I realize that I probably need to be disrupted, disturbed, and interrupted. This is why I just don't get the visceral reactionary response to the OP. Would people feel just as irritated if this thread were about hunger and the OP included a picture of a starving child? I seriously doubt it.


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« Reply #200 on: October 04, 2011, 04:07:45 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


No I am just parroting what you have said many times in the past about being a complete pacifist.

Either you are lying. Or you would let your children die.

Let me know which it is and I'll adjust what I say.


You can go back and read my thorough explanations of my pacifist position to see how off base you are in your cowardly caricatures of what I believe. Such straw man attacks are not profitable brother, nor are they Christian.


Selam


Save me the effort. Make your point here.

What would you do in my "thought" experiment.

This is one of the problems you have around here. You are blunt to a fault (polysemy intended).

Be clear here. Do you kill the guy going to kill your kids or who without any trouble kills others and no one else cares?

Yes or no.

Time to sharpen that bluntness to a real point.

I don't want to read your tome of previous posts to get a simple answer from you.




Then don't accuse me of things of which you have no knowledge. If you want to debate pacifism, there are other threads for that. This is about abortion. I have made my positions on abortion and pacifism very clear on this forum. So the straw man you build, you build beneath yourself.


Selam

Gebre, do you ever wonder why so many of the threads you enter quickly become conversations about you?


Calling B.S. once again Peter. I continue to stick to the topic at hand, in spite of efforts to divert this thread into issues other than abortion. You keep playing the same cards, and all of them are weak.


Selam
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« Reply #201 on: October 04, 2011, 04:14:03 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam


No I am just parroting what you have said many times in the past about being a complete pacifist.

Either you are lying. Or you would let your children die.

Let me know which it is and I'll adjust what I say.


You can go back and read my thorough explanations of my pacifist position to see how off base you are in your cowardly caricatures of what I believe. Such straw man attacks are not profitable brother, nor are they Christian.


Selam


Save me the effort. Make your point here.

What would you do in my "thought" experiment.

This is one of the problems you have around here. You are blunt to a fault (polysemy intended).

Be clear here. Do you kill the guy going to kill your kids or who without any trouble kills others and no one else cares?

Yes or no.

Time to sharpen that bluntness to a real point.

I don't want to read your tome of previous posts to get a simple answer from you.




Then don't accuse me of things of which you have no knowledge. If you want to debate pacifism, there are other threads for that. This is about abortion. I have made my positions on abortion and pacifism very clear on this forum. So the straw man you build, you build beneath yourself.


Selam

Gebre, do you ever wonder why so many of the threads you enter quickly become conversations about you?


Calling B.S. once again Peter. I continue to stick to the topic at hand, in spite of efforts to divert this thread into issues other than abortion. You keep playing the same cards, and all of them are weak.
No BS. Why do people get so easily sidetracked into discussing you and your tactics when the subject is abortion? Why are there now three or four people on this thread objecting to your conduct? You would say we're all ganging up on you to bully you, but is that really what's going on here?
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« Reply #202 on: October 04, 2011, 04:31:17 PM »

Would people feel just as irritated if this thread were about hunger and the OP included a picture of a starving child? I seriously doubt it.


Selam


You doubt wrong. One of my two big peeves are poverty-Pron and HoloPron.

You can keep both.
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« Reply #203 on: October 04, 2011, 04:37:39 PM »

It still seems to me that this is nothing more than an "abortion is bad aren't I right?" thread where everyone is expected to say, "Yeah!"

When not everyone says, "Yeah!" = butthurt

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« Reply #204 on: October 04, 2011, 04:39:09 PM »

Personally, I think we should pray for all parties involved.  The fetus probably needs the least prayer of the bunch.  What sins will they be judged for by Christ?  Somehow I doubt that unborn infants do a whole lot of idolatry, adultery, lust, bearing of false witness, murder, coveting, and so on in the womb.

O Vamrat, have you not heard the words of pasadi?

This is how ancient religion saw Hell like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-VlJnDvuw and where NON BAPTIZED people may end until last judgement when with exception of meek, gentle and some categories including aborted babies, there are chances for them to get into fire at last judgement. Aborted babies end in a very good part of Hell where they are not tormented and they are playing, however it is not heaven and this is why a monk said, if somebody wants to kill a child of his own,he should choose a baptized one not an unborn one.

There is even iconography to back up this teaching:

This is the story about aborted not baptized babies probably in Hell. Anyhow looks like the Roman Catholic Thomas Aquinass ended there. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/another_champion_of_abortion_becomes_defender_of_life_the_story_of_stojan_adasevic/
This is an orthodox icon of aborted babies and they are depicted being thrown into Hell:


The idea is that even without sins is so hard to make it to Heaven without BAPTISM. Neither unborn children don't make it that did not live one day.Anyhow the sin of abortion is erased through confession.


Please kindly govern your words until you have read more.

Thank you.
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« Reply #205 on: October 04, 2011, 04:42:33 PM »

Ortho,

Where did you dig up that "icon"? The mommy giving the kid the medicine was hilarious.

PP
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« Reply #206 on: October 04, 2011, 04:49:03 PM »

Ortho,

Where did you dig up that "icon"? The mommy giving the kid the medicine was hilarious.

PP

Pure pasadi. I am merely an instrument of his arcane words and oddly contextualized images.
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« Reply #207 on: October 04, 2011, 04:50:39 PM »

Ortho,

Where did you dig up that "icon"? The mommy giving the kid the medicine was hilarious.

PP

BTW, did you scroll across the image? You have to see the right third to understand where pasadi is coming from.
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« Reply #208 on: October 04, 2011, 04:54:48 PM »

Wow.....simply wow.....unbelievable.

WELL, if an "icon" says it than it's gotta be true....

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« Reply #209 on: October 04, 2011, 04:55:12 PM »

I will go ahead and take that with a grain of salt.  If "the innocents" are damned then I'm pretty well screwed.
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« Reply #210 on: October 04, 2011, 04:58:02 PM »

ummmmm..Correct.. Articles of faith are like each other. They require Faith.

Sooooooooooooo..therefore, you should be sensitive when basing your arguments on your own personal set of religious  beliefs. Try not to foist them upon others... It's bad form.

Christianity is the truth, not an opinion, and it should be foisted on people if they are going to insist on murdering other people.

You can and should try to convert them to Christianity. Then you will have similar metaphysical beliefs, until then, try other arguments.

I refuse to accept the premise that all belief systems are equally valid. Those belief systems that turn human beings into commodities are invalid and not worthy of debate.

understand the internal logic. It's just a horrible argument because it is not presented as "A" Holocaust. It is posed in juxtaposition to the European Holocaust of World War Two, which is offensive to many and a real stretch. A zygote aborted with a morning after pill is not the same as whole families being rounded up sent to camps and gassed. Not to make light of Abortion but the paradigm you wish to jam it into is a bit delusional.

No, it's worse. At least the Jews had a sporting chance, and at least "only" six million of them were killed. Meanwhile abortionism has murdered nine times that many people, and utterly vulnerable ones at that.

I'm looking at statistics and factual numbers, just like the people who make value judgments on human lives. That's offensive when we compare it to the horrific Jewish Holocaust, but it's dandy when we are deciding whether an Image-bearing unborn child is worthy of life?

How far we have come in only 70 years! I can't wait to see what's cooking for 2080! (Geriatricide will likely be in place by then, so I probably won't even live that long.)

Christianity is the truth, not an opinion, and it should be foisted on people if they are going to insist on murdering other people.

That's certainly the way you can play it. However it virtually guarantees that abortions will remain legal and that the outrageously high rate of abortion will not decline. So if chest thumping is a turn on for you, go for it. If you wish to at least curtail abortions, then that dog wont hunt.

Luckily neither of us is in charge of the Pro-Life movement. I just think there are much smarter ways to go about persuading people.

Also, if you keep insisting on calling the other side "murderers", then once again..........kind of a bad tactic.

And then you guys get frustrated when your strategy dead ends and default to posting grisly pix.

Not smart. Juvenile. Counter productive. Ego driven. IMHO

  
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« Reply #211 on: October 04, 2011, 05:20:26 PM »

ummmmm..Correct.. Articles of faith are like each other. They require Faith.

Sooooooooooooo..therefore, you should be sensitive when basing your arguments on your own personal set of religious  beliefs. Try not to foist them upon others... It's bad form.

Christianity is the truth, not an opinion, and it should be foisted on people if they are going to insist on murdering other people.

You can and should try to convert them to Christianity. Then you will have similar metaphysical beliefs, until then, try other arguments.

I refuse to accept the premise that all belief systems are equally valid. Those belief systems that turn human beings into commodities are invalid and not worthy of debate.

understand the internal logic. It's just a horrible argument because it is not presented as "A" Holocaust. It is posed in juxtaposition to the European Holocaust of World War Two, which is offensive to many and a real stretch. A zygote aborted with a morning after pill is not the same as whole families being rounded up sent to camps and gassed. Not to make light of Abortion but the paradigm you wish to jam it into is a bit delusional.

No, it's worse. At least the Jews had a sporting chance, and at least "only" six million of them were killed. Meanwhile abortionism has murdered nine times that many people, and utterly vulnerable ones at that.

I'm looking at statistics and factual numbers, just like the people who make value judgments on human lives. That's offensive when we compare it to the horrific Jewish Holocaust, but it's dandy when we are deciding whether an Image-bearing unborn child is worthy of life?

How far we have come in only 70 years! I can't wait to see what's cooking for 2080! (Geriatricide will likely be in place by then, so I probably won't even live that long.)

Christianity is the truth, not an opinion, and it should be foisted on people if they are going to insist on murdering other people.

That certainly they way you can play it. However it virtually guarantees that abortions will remain legal and that the outrageously high rate of abortion will not decline. So if chest thumping is a turn on for you, go for it. If you wish to at least curtail abortions, then that dog wont hunt.

Luckily neither of us is in charge of the Pro-Life movement. I just think there are much smarter ways to go about persuading people.

Also, if you keep insisting on calling the other side "murderers", then once again..........kind of a bad tactic.

And then you guys get frustrated when your strategy dead ends and default to posting grisly pix.

Not smart. Juvenile. Counter productive. Ego driven. IMHO

  
Are you saying then that, regardless of what we believe, if we are to persuade others effectively to embrace our beliefs, we must first present them in a way that others can appreciate from their starting point? That we must seek first to understand the persons we seek to persuade, know what's important to them and how they think, so that we can lead them from where they are to appreciate the truth in what we preach? That it makes no sense to start off with an attack on the other party, because such a tactic only works to put them on the defensive from the very start?
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« Reply #212 on: October 04, 2011, 05:28:14 PM »

I will go ahead and take that with a grain of salt.  If "the innocents" are damned then I'm pretty well screwed.

The grain of salt is that the person who originally posted the "icon" (not in this thread) misinterpreted it as meaning that the unbaptized aborted children go to hell; the "icon" actually depicts that the children are being subjected to an evil procedure and are physically tormented (i.e. killed) by it.  The "icon" makes no claim one way or another on the eternal disposition of the souls of the aborted.

I say "icon" since it is no more an icon than the "icons" of MLK and the so-called "Ark of Salvation" - they're not fit for prayer or worship.
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« Reply #213 on: October 04, 2011, 05:55:58 PM »

I will go ahead and take that with a grain of salt.  If "the innocents" are damned then I'm pretty well screwed.

No, Pasadi is as wrong as one can get.

ADDED: Sorry, did not see Father George's explanation, which is of course right.
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« Reply #214 on: October 04, 2011, 07:04:04 PM »

Babies are being saved

http://www.40daysforlife.com/

Why don't the Orthodox join us?

Some Orthodox Christians are involved in that organization, but Orthodox Christians also have their own Pro-Life movement.

40daysforlife.com wants you to pray and fast for 40 days, but that organization ignores the fact that the Orthodox Church already has two forty day periods of prayer and fasting (Nativity Lent and Great Lent) plus two other fasting seasons (The fast of the Theotokos and the Apostles Fast). These FOUR Orthodox Fasting seasons predate those organized by 40daysforlife.com by many hundreds of years. So, why doesn't 40daysforlife.com join us in our Orthodox fast rather than mandating that we join in their modern (not ancient) fasts?
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« Reply #215 on: October 04, 2011, 07:19:52 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?


Can you think of any more ugly words to put in his mouth?  I mean you were just getting started here...right?

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #216 on: October 04, 2011, 07:33:39 PM »

Babies are being saved

http://www.40daysforlife.com/

Why don't the Orthodox join us?

Some Orthodox Christians are involved in that organization, but Orthodox Christians also have their own Pro-Life movement.

40daysforlife.com wants you to pray and fast for 40 days, but that organization ignores the fact that the Orthodox Church already has two forty day periods of prayer and fasting (Nativity Lent and Great Lent) plus two other fasting seasons (The fast of the Theotokos and the Apostles Fast). These FOUR Orthodox Fasting seasons predate those organized by 40daysforlife.com by many hundreds of years. So, why doesn't 40daysforlife.com join us in our Orthodox fast rather than mandating that we join in their modern (not ancient) fasts?

I've promoted them before, but the Orthodox in the US also have Zoe For Life (which focuses on helping mothers not need abortions - i.e. counseling, promoting adoption, etc.).  http://www.zoeforlifeonline.org/  The organization is endorsed by the SCOBA/Episcopal Assembly.
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« Reply #217 on: October 04, 2011, 07:43:43 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?


Can you think of any more ugly words to put in his mouth?
I can think of much worse, since I never put anything into his mouth. I read the words that came off his fingers and wanted to make sure I was understanding them correctly, hence my questions to him.
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« Reply #218 on: October 04, 2011, 07:49:16 PM »

I will go ahead and take that with a grain of salt.  If "the innocents" are damned then I'm pretty well screwed.

No, Pasadi is as wrong as one can get.

ADDED: Sorry, did not see Father George's explanation, which is of course right.

AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These words hurt my ears or eyes or whichever sense organ makes sense right now, if any can make sense after searing such utterances!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #219 on: October 04, 2011, 07:51:18 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?


Can you think of any more ugly words to put in his mouth?
I can think of much worse, since I never put anything into his mouth. I read the words that came off his fingers and wanted to make sure I was understanding them correctly, hence my questions to him.

I think those questions are leading and pretty ugly in the direction that they are leading.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 07:52:32 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #220 on: October 04, 2011, 08:04:22 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?


Can you think of any more ugly words to put in his mouth?
I can think of much worse, since I never put anything into his mouth. I read the words that came off his fingers and wanted to make sure I was understanding them correctly, hence my questions to him.

I think those questions are leading and pretty ugly in the direction that they are leading.
Think what you want, Mary. Gebre answered my questions to my satisfaction, and we actually had a good conversation about his point of view, so I don't think those questions are leading anywhere anymore. You might actually try reading the conversation we had. You might find it quite informative. Wink
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 08:06:17 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #221 on: October 04, 2011, 08:07:11 PM »

As a somewhat interesting aside, my wife went to a Mennonite high school, and one of the books they gave everyone about abortion was Real Choices by Federica Matthewes-Greene
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« Reply #222 on: October 04, 2011, 08:15:53 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?


Can you think of any more ugly words to put in his mouth?
I can think of much worse, since I never put anything into his mouth. I read the words that came off his fingers and wanted to make sure I was understanding them correctly, hence my questions to him.

I think those questions are leading and pretty ugly in the direction that they are leading.
Think what you want, Mary. Gebre answered my questions to my satisfaction, and we actually had a good conversation about his point of view, so I don't think those questions are leading anywhere anymore. You might actually try reading the conversation we had. You might find it quite informative. Wink

What thread did you post it in...?  I don't see it here.
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« Reply #223 on: October 04, 2011, 08:21:53 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?


Can you think of any more ugly words to put in his mouth?
I can think of much worse, since I never put anything into his mouth. I read the words that came off his fingers and wanted to make sure I was understanding them correctly, hence my questions to him.

I think those questions are leading and pretty ugly in the direction that they are leading.
Think what you want, Mary. Gebre answered my questions to my satisfaction, and we actually had a good conversation about his point of view, so I don't think those questions are leading anywhere anymore. You might actually try reading the conversation we had. You might find it quite informative. Wink

What thread did you post it in...?  I don't see it here.

The abortion thread carpet bombing has confused stuff. Which is why I am just pretending prolly like others these are all one big thread.

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« Reply #224 on: October 04, 2011, 08:22:51 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?


Can you think of any more ugly words to put in his mouth?
I can think of much worse, since I never put anything into his mouth. I read the words that came off his fingers and wanted to make sure I was understanding them correctly, hence my questions to him.

I think those questions are leading and pretty ugly in the direction that they are leading.
Think what you want, Mary. Gebre answered my questions to my satisfaction, and we actually had a good conversation about his point of view, so I don't think those questions are leading anywhere anymore. You might actually try reading the conversation we had. You might find it quite informative. Wink

What thread did you post it in...?  I don't see it here.
Trust me, it's there. Besides, the conversation was between Gebre and me, and we're pretty much done discussing that little sub-thread, so I'm not sure why you think it necessary that I should answer to you for the decency of my questions. In fact, I intend not to answer to you on that particular subject anymore.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 08:24:28 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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