OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 29, 2014, 07:12:02 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Abortion from the babies point of view ! WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT  (Read 18261 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« on: October 01, 2011, 07:50:01 AM »




THIS IS A STORY.
PLEASE READ !!!!


Hi Mommy!
Share Sunday, July 11, 2010 at 1:16pm

Hi, Mommy. I'm your baby. You don't know me yet, I'm only a few
weeks old. You're going to find out about me soon, though, I promise.
Let me tell you some things about me. My name is John, and I've got
beautiful brown eyes and black hair. Well, I don't have it yet, but I
will when I'm born. I'm going to be your only child, and you'll call me
your one and only. I'm going to grow up without a daddy mostly, but we
have each other. We'll help each other, and love each other. I want to
be a doctor when I grow up.



You found out about me today, Mommy! You were so excited, you couldn't
wait to tell everyone. All you could do all day was smile, and life was
perfect. You have a beautiful smile, Mommy. It will be the first face I
will see in my life, and it will be the best thing I see in my life. I
know it already.



Today was the day you told Daddy. You were so excited to tell him about
me! ...He wasn't happy, Mommy. He kind of got angry. I don't think that
you noticed, but he did. He started to talk about something called
wedlock, and money, and bills, and stuff I don't think I understand
yet. You were still happy, though, so it was okay. Then he did
something scary, Mommy. He hit you. I could feel you fall backward, and
your hands flying up to protect me. I was okay... but I was very sad
for you. You were crying then, Mommy. That's a sound I don't like. It
doesn't make me feel good. It made me cry, too. He said sorry after,
and he hugged you again. You forgave him, Mommy, but I'm not sure if I
do. It wasn't right. You say he loves you... why would he hurt you? I
don't like it, Mommy.



Finally, you can see me! Your stomach is a little bit bigger, and
you're so proud of me! You went out with your mommy to buy new clothes,
and you were so so so happy. You sing to me, too. You have the most
beautiful voice in the whole wide world. When you sing is when I'm
happiest. And you talk to me, and I feel safe. So safe. You just wait
and see, Mommy. When I am born I will be perfect just for you. I will
make you proud, and I will love you with all of my heart.



I can move my hands and feet now, Mommy. I do it because you put your
hands on your belly to feel me, and I giggle. You giggle, too. I love
you, Mommy.



Daddy came to see you today, Mommy. I got really scared. He was acting
funny and he wasn't talking right. He said he didn't want you. I don't
know why, but that's what he said. And he hit you again. I got angry,
Mommy. When I grow up I promise I won't let you get hurt! I promise to
protect you. Daddy is bad. I don't care if you think that he is a good
person, I think he's bad. But he hit you, and he said he didn't want
us. He doesn't like me. Why doesn't he like me, Mommy?



You didn't talk to me tonight, Mommy. Is everything okay?



It's been three days since you saw Daddy. You haven't talked to me or
touched me or anything since that. Don't you still love me, Mommy? I
still love you. I think you feel sad. The only time I feel you is when
you sleep. You sleep funny, kind of curled up on your side. And you hug
me with your arms, and I feel safe and warm again. Why don't you do
that when you're awake, any more?



I'm 21 weeks old today, Mommy. Aren't you proud of me? We're going
somewhere today, and it's somewhere new. I'm excited. It looks like a
hospital, too. I want to be a doctor when I grow up, Mommy. Did I tell
you that? I hope you're as excited as I am. I can't wait.



...Mommy, I'm getting scared. Your heart is still beating, but I don't
know what you are thinking. The doctor is talking to you. I think
something's going to happen soon. I'm really, really, really scared,
Mommy. Please tell me you love me. Then I will feel safe again. I love
you!



Mommy, what are they doing to me!? It hurts! Please make them stop! It
feels bad! Please, Mommy, please please help me! Make them stop!



Don't worry Mommy, I'm safe. I'm in heaven with the angels now. They
told me what you did, and they said it's called an abortion.



Why, Mommy? Why did you do it? Don't you love me any more? Why did you
get rid of me? I'm really, really, really sorry if I did something
wrong, Mommy. I love you, Mommy! I love you with all of my heart. Why
don't you love me? What did I do to deserve what they did to me? I want
to live, Mommy! Please! It really, really hurts to see you not care
about me, and not talk to me. Didn't I love you enough? Please say
you'll keep me, Mommy! I want to live smile and watch the clouds and
see your face and grow up and be a doctor. I don't want to be here, I
want you to love me again! I'm really really really sorry if I did
something wrong. I love you!





I love you, Mommy.



Every abortion is just…



One more heart that was stopped.

Two more eyes that will never see.

Two more hands that will never touch.

Two more legs that will never run.

One more mouth that will never speak.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 06:12:32 PM by Second Chance » Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 07:58:24 AM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 08:07:21 AM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?

you may not realise this, but as a Christian you are supposed to defend the weak and those can not defend themselves, including babies that have not been born.

By sharing posts like this enables Christians to share with there friends that may not share there hate on abortion.

It may opens peoples eyes and draw on there heart strings to stop this murder.

you are either for or against... I am not sure which you are as you only ever criticise !

I have never seen one post of yours where you defend your faith.

there is no standing on the fence, you are either for or against!



 
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2011, 08:14:56 AM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?

you may not realise this, but as a Christian you are supposed to defend the weak and those can not defend themselves, including babies that have not been born.

By sharing posts like this enables Christians to share with there friends that may not share there hate on abortion.

It may opens peoples eyes and draw on there heart strings to stop this murder.

you are either for or against... I am not sure which you are as you only ever criticise !

I have never seen one post of yours where you defend your faith.

there is no standing on the fence, you are either for or against!



 

Well you don't read much or retain what you read well. And that is not my problem.

So since you are preaching to the choir, what would you have us do with your tactless, sentimental, purple, ugly, stupid rhetoric?

If you want me to forward this sorta garbage to people who aren't against abortion.

I'll pass.

I would like a chance to remain they might change their heart.

Your post is vile and heartless.

 
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2011, 08:30:58 AM »

Is it possible to agree with a point while disagreeing with the methods used to make it?

Anyway...

Most children learn at a somewhat young age in school that once the sperm fertilizes the egg a number of things happen.

The egg seals itself so no other sperm can penetrate.

The genetic material present consists of a "x" chromosone with 23 genes from it's mother and either an "x" or "y" from the father also including 23 genes. These combine to make a full set of human DNA with 46 (23 pairs) genes with a sex based on the "xx" or "xy" combination from the parents.

Cells start reproducing.

It is alive and self sustaining until either it implants itself in the mother's uterus or, for one reason or another, doesn't implant and starves to death.

This makes it a living human being, by scientific definition, at the moment of conception.

Just for the record, agree with the Church's teaching.

Besides, the story is about a child that claims to be in heaven but doesn't want to be there. I don't know how theologically sound that part of the story is.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2011, 08:45:33 AM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?

you may not realise this, but as a Christian you are supposed to defend the weak and those can not defend themselves, including babies that have not been born.

By sharing posts like this enables Christians to share with there friends that may not share there hate on abortion.

It may opens peoples eyes and draw on there heart strings to stop this murder.

you are either for or against... I am not sure which you are as you only ever criticise !

I have never seen one post of yours where you defend your faith.

there is no standing on the fence, you are either for or against!



 

Well you don't read much or retain what you read well. And that is not my problem.

So since you are preaching to the choir, what would you have us do with your tactless, sentimental, purple, ugly, stupid rhetoric?

If you want me to forward this sorta garbage to people who aren't against abortion.

I'll pass.

I would like a chance to remain they might change their heart.

Your post is vile and heartless.

 

That is precisely what abortion is:  vile and heartless
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,717


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2011, 08:58:34 AM »

A fetus that well-developed was probably not aborted, but a stillbirth. You can see the umbilical cord and the body appears to be intact. Also, fetal remains are usually disposed of fairly quickly, not placed on a towel. In most states you cannot get an abortion after a certain number of months.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
TinaG
I am not a pessimist - I'm just grimly realistic!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 870


If only my family were this normal !


WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 09:02:25 AM »

The evils of abortion are without argument, that we can all agree on.  This is a separate request please to the board moderator and the site moderators, and anyone who post photos in the future.  Can you please put something in the tagline of the original post that warns about the graphic nature of the photos to come.  Some of us might have small children who see what we're viewing online and others, like me, who were just shocked with an unexpected, stomach turning image as soon as they opened the post.  I would have liked some warning before opening.  Just put something in all caps like "CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES".  Thank you.
Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2011, 09:02:51 AM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?

you may not realise this, but as a Christian you are supposed to defend the weak and those can not defend themselves, including babies that have not been born.

By sharing posts like this enables Christians to share with there friends that may not share there hate on abortion.

It may opens peoples eyes and draw on there heart strings to stop this murder.

you are either for or against... I am not sure which you are as you only ever criticise !

I have never seen one post of yours where you defend your faith.

there is no standing on the fence, you are either for or against!



 

Well you don't read much or retain what you read well. And that is not my problem.

So since you are preaching to the choir, what would you have us do with your tactless, sentimental, purple, ugly, stupid rhetoric?

If you want me to forward this sorta garbage to people who aren't against abortion.

I'll pass.

I would like a chance to remain they might change their heart.

Your post is vile and heartless.

 

That is precisely what abortion is:  vile and heartless

And I think most of us will agree. The question is whether these shrill gimmicks are effective ways of addressing the problem. No, they're not.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2011, 09:12:15 AM »

Just for the record, agree with the Church's teaching.

Too late to modify and just noticed it - meant to say "I agree with the Church's teaching"
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,926



« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2011, 09:19:11 AM »

The question is whether these shrill gimmicks are effective ways of addressing the problem. No, they're not.

I think it depends on the context. The original post is definitely disturbing, IMHO in a positive sense. The ones who want to get it removed because they don't want to look at it should rather ask themselves if there are doing anything against abortion
(And to do something against it doesn't forcibly mean politics - one might actrually consider reaching out to human beings...)
Logged
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2011, 09:24:27 AM »

The question is whether these shrill gimmicks are effective ways of addressing the problem. No, they're not.

I think it depends on the context. The original post is definitely disturbing, IMHO in a positive sense. The ones who want to get it removed because they don't want to look at it should rather ask themselves if there are doing anything against abortion
(And to do something against it doesn't forcibly mean politics - one might actrually consider reaching out to human beings...)

 Smiley
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2011, 09:24:37 AM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

lol

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?

Is this a rhetorical thrust against an article you find bombastic, or are you really missing it's design?
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2011, 10:51:41 AM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?

you may not realise this, but as a Christian you are supposed to defend the weak and those can not defend themselves, including babies that have not been born.

By sharing posts like this enables Christians to share with there friends that may not share there hate on abortion.

It may opens peoples eyes and draw on there heart strings to stop this murder.

you are either for or against... I am not sure which you are as you only ever criticise !

I have never seen one post of yours where you defend your faith.

there is no standing on the fence, you are either for or against!



 

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2011, 11:47:55 AM »

I read this on Facebook.

Lmao at the developing fetus bit
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2011, 12:09:00 PM »

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

I have been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was deeply moved by the photos of mass graves and even just the piles of shoes. How is that not the same thing.

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.

Yes, the Church should listen to and help these poor mothers. That is our great failure in this issue. But don't venture to mitigate the horror of what this holocaust actually is—nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions of human persons.
Logged
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,069



« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2011, 01:51:48 PM »

I'll admit that the story does appeal to some who consider abortion. I work with teenage girls and know of two that did not have an abortion after reading something like that sent to them from a friend.   I also know of one that read something like that after having an abortion and attempted suicide. I also know that for many (most?) girls/young women that I have worked with, the story would have a deleterious effect.  The story probably appeals more to those who have never had an abortion and to those who may or may not have had abortions, but have a stable worldview.  Abortion is an evil, don't get me wrong, I've seen its ugly face too many times, but like some others have said, are we interested in truly eradicating it?  If so, then you have to be willing to make an extreme emotional and physical investmentr.  Posting stories on the internet does not suffice.  Posting stories that appeal to our own emotions, but has little to say to those actually experiencing the unfathomable darkness of contemplating abortion (yes, contemplating it is a great darkness in and of itself), is a failure on the face of it.  In my experience, most people are just not willing to make the investment needed.   
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 01:53:42 PM by Ionnis » Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,328


« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2011, 02:07:48 PM »

We should make this the abortion thread to end all abortion threads. The primary topics covered should be the following:

- Call abortion murder, and pretend that using terms like that means something.
- Talk about rallies and marches.
- Talk about voting for politicians who are pro-life, and will put in place activist pro-life judges
- Talk about protesting abortion clinics.
- Enourage protesting at the residences of doctors who do abortive procedures.
- Make up stories from the perspective of a fetus.
- Show pictures--whether real or not doesn't matter--that will shock people.

Some have already been covered, and we have a good start. I'm counting on you guys. (I'm pro-life, btw).
Logged

.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2011, 02:34:06 PM »

- Talk about rallies and marches.
- Talk about voting for politicians who are pro-life, and will put in place activist pro-life judges
- Talk about protesting abortion clinics.

These are not necessarily bad ideas. I guess the question is "who is willing to?". Unfortunately, I've only personally done one of the three, and I didn't cast my vote solely on the issue of abortion, even though it was a factor in the decision making process.

Promoting alternatives to abortion and some of the reasons that push women towards abortion might not be bad.

As mentioned above, there is also the issue of healing.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2011, 02:54:46 PM »

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

You see, you have lived all your life in a society where there is this loud voice, TELLING you that life begins at conception. But if you did not hear this voice, you would hardly come to this conclusion yourself. I lived in a different society (the former USSR), where abortion up until the end of the 12th week of pregnancy was perfectly legal and performed as regularly as filling teeth (and at no cost to the patient). And I assure you, women - even though they did not like this procedure, nobody likes it, - did NOT believe that those who aborted their fetuses killed "babies." Such notion just was not put into their heads. Very few women in their birth-giving age had ever heard any message from the Church or from any other religious group for that matter. So, to them, a fetus was a fetus, and a baby a baby. "It" was called "baby" ONLY when "it" was born.

BTW, when I finished my fourth year of studies at Kyiv Medical University, I, like all other senior students, was sent for a short (1 month) practice at a rural hospital. Among other things, our agenda there included assisting at birth. One night, the obstetrician whom I assisted helped a woman deliver her baby, and the baby turned out to be very premature, tiny, bluish, but able to emit a very soft, barely audible cry. The obstetrician took it in his hands, made a hole it its scull, and threw it into a large bucket filled with water. He then explained to the mother that the baby was too ill, and had absolutely no chance to survive. He said, also, that to terminate the life of that baby was not only his legal right, but also a part of his professional duty of a physician. The mother cried, of course, but when the obstetrician said, "you shouldn't grieve, these things happen, and you are young, you will most definitely have babies soon," - she stopped crying. The year was 1979, not that long time ago.

As I have written in another thread, I am very much against abortion, because I hear the voice of the Church and obey it. But many people do not, and many people may, REALLY, have a different take on what "human life" is. So, rather than scream about murder of innocent babies, we should, rather, attract more people to the Church (instead of repelling them from Her by our tactless behavior and speech), and, also, share with others the objective knowledge of embryology, of the recent data about the early embryonal life obtained with the help of computer imaging.

Logged

Love never fails.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2011, 03:28:51 PM »

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.
Do you think it possible that we are not moved by such images anymore because we've seen so many of them plastered all over the Internet that we're just tired of seeing them? Do you also not realize that we are looking at a photo and not at the aborted fetus itself? That level of separation tends to actually divorce us from the reality of abortion.
Logged
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,155


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2011, 03:54:18 PM »


I have never seen one post of yours where you defend your faith.

Honestly, in pointing out the flaws in arguments like this, orthonorm has presented a good defense of the faith to me on numerous occasions, showing that one can be a good Orthodox Christian without totally sacrificing some level of critical thought or a sense of humor. On a forum like this, showing people how to defend their faith well, which orthonorm does in his own special way, is just as important as presenting a defense of the faith to people who disbelieve in it.
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2011, 04:22:27 PM »

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.
Do you think it possible that we are not moved by such images anymore because we've seen so many of them plastered all over the Internet that we're just tired of seeing them? Do you also not realize that we are looking at a photo and not at the aborted fetus itself? That level of separation tends to actually divorce us from the reality of abortion.

I personally have only ever seen such photos very few times, and none were on the Internet. So, I guess it's possible that people have been desensitized to it.

But on the other hand, I've seen the video of the World Trade Center exploding countless times, and I still feel the wind knocked out of me a little when I see it.  I have seen lots of Holocaust photos over the years, and I cringe every time I see another one. I am not accusing anybody in particular of this, but I think desensitization in general is in part willful.

I think society's attitude toward abortion and those who are vehemently against it has influenced people people to being dismissive to abortion photos, quite honestly. If you gave such a photo to St Paul, I doubt he would react with dismissiveness. That attitude is what I'm saying is hardhearted.

I think people know it's evil, and they can't stand being face-to-face with the results, so they shout down anyone who shows them the truth. (Again, I am not referring to anyone here per se, but society in general.)

I do agree that it's not the best tactic, however. A much better one is to require the mother to view ultrasonic imagery of the fetus before she makes the decision, and to listen to its beating heart. That is a much more informed decision. And it actually prevents abortion in many cases.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 04:31:20 PM by bogdan » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2011, 04:46:06 PM »

If you gave such a photo to St Paul, I doubt he would react with dismissiveness.
How do you conclude this? Do you know St. Paul personally?
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2011, 04:54:31 PM »

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.
Do you think it possible that we are not moved by such images anymore because we've seen so many of them plastered all over the Internet that we're just tired of seeing them? Do you also not realize that we are looking at a photo and not at the aborted fetus itself? That level of separation tends to actually divorce us from the reality of abortion.

I personally have only ever seen such photos very few times, and none were on the Internet. So, I guess it's possible that people have been desensitized to it.

But on the other hand, I've seen the video of the World Trade Center exploding countless times, and I still feel the wind knocked out of me a little when I see it.  I have seen lots of Holocaust photos over the years, and I cringe every time I see another one. I am not accusing anybody in particular of this, but I think desensitization in general is in part willful.

I think society's attitude toward abortion and those who are vehemently against it has influenced people people to being dismissive to abortion photos, quite honestly. If you gave such a photo to St Paul, I doubt he would react with dismissiveness. That attitude is what I'm saying is hardhearted.

I think people know it's evil, and they can't stand being face-to-face with the results, so they shout down anyone who shows them the truth. (Again, I am not referring to anyone here per se, but society in general.)

I do agree that it's not the best tactic, however. A much better one is to require the mother to view ultrasonic imagery of the fetus before she makes the decision, and to listen to its beating heart. That is a much more informed decision. And it actually prevents abortion in many cases.

My daughter insisted that a friend and co-worker view images of a late term abortion on the Internet.  He was trying to force his daughter into a late term abortion.  The images which he viewed on-line stopped the argument cold.

I think those things have their place.
Logged

orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2011, 05:01:08 PM »

I'll admit that the story does appeal to some who consider abortion. I work with teenage girls and know of two that did not have an abortion after reading something like that sent to them from a friend.   I also know of one that read something like that after having an abortion and attempted suicide. I also know that for many (most?) girls/young women that I have worked with, the story would have a deleterious effect.  The story probably appeals more to those who have never had an abortion and to those who may or may not have had abortions, but have a stable worldview.  Abortion is an evil, don't get me wrong, I've seen its ugly face too many times, but like some others have said, are we interested in truly eradicating it?  If so, then you have to be willing to make an extreme emotional and physical investmentr.  Posting stories on the internet does not suffice.  Posting stories that appeal to our own emotions, but has little to say to those actually experiencing the unfathomable darkness of contemplating abortion (yes, contemplating it is a great darkness in and of itself), is a failure on the face of it.  In my experience, most people are just not willing to make the investment needed.    

OK y'all, meet good cop.

-Bad cop
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 05:01:33 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2011, 05:39:34 PM »

I'll admit that the story does appeal to some who consider abortion. I work with teenage girls and know of two that did not have an abortion after reading something like that sent to them from a friend.   I also know of one that read something like that after having an abortion and attempted suicide. I also know that for many (most?) girls/young women that I have worked with, the story would have a deleterious effect.  The story probably appeals more to those who have never had an abortion and to those who may or may not have had abortions, but have a stable worldview.  Abortion is an evil, don't get me wrong, I've seen its ugly face too many times, but like some others have said, are we interested in truly eradicating it?  If so, then you have to be willing to make an extreme emotional and physical investmentr.  Posting stories on the internet does not suffice.  Posting stories that appeal to our own emotions, but has little to say to those actually experiencing the unfathomable darkness of contemplating abortion (yes, contemplating it is a great darkness in and of itself), is a failure on the face of it.  In my experience, most people are just not willing to make the investment needed.    

OK y'all, meet good cop.

-Bad cop


O! Norm...I admit that I am surprised by your responses here and on the other abortion topic currently active.  I would not have predicted your responses.

Why the need for a bad cop in a discussion on abortion in a Catholic venue [naming you and other Orthodox as Catholic here, since I can accurately, and feel like it]

M.
Logged

JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2011, 06:36:05 PM »

I had a "movement" occur from this photo.  The acid in my stomach nearly "moved" up through my esophagus and out of my mouth.  I did not even read the story, because that photo turned my completely off of the original post.  Frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself for posting something like that, without any sort of warning in the thread title or sub-title.  It is abhorrent.  You are abhorrent.

If you had merely stopped at "It is abhorrent," without the additional attack on JR's person, everything would have been all right. However, the additional "You are abhorrent," is an ad hominem, the likes of which already drew you a warning just a couple days ago. For this egregious personal attack, you are now on Post Moderation for the next 40 days. During the time of your moderation, everything you post will need to be screened by a moderator before it will appear on the forum.

If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message to Veniamin.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 06:46:06 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2011, 06:49:39 PM »

I had a "movement" occur from this photo.  The acid in my stomach nearly "moved" up through my esophagus and out of my mouth.  

If I, who have aborted, can look at photos of dead babies like that and not go screaming out into the night, then surely we all can look and know what we do, either by our own volitional acts or by inaction.  Those who are active in the pro-life movement have become acclimated to viewing the results of Roe v. Wade.  I will admit that it has taken me a long time to look and there are times when I cannot or times when the shock is visceral, but I look in any event, and I do not complain, for I trust His mercy and His justice.

War and dismemberment do the same thing to me, but there comes a time when trust in God MUST outweigh all else...but the images of the results of our stiff necks should ultimately inspire humility and not anger or bile.

M.
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2011, 06:59:46 PM »

Thank you for psoting this JR. It is conveys a powerful and necessary truth. While some may be upset because this tragic image merely upsets their appetite, others will have their hearts broken and be moved to tears and then to action. It is really sad that professing Orthodox Christians would have any reaction to this anti-abortion message other than deep sorrow and wholehearted support for the truth you have conveyed. Please be assured that there are many of us who are behind you 100%. Don't let these heartless negative reactions discourage you. These same people wouldn't be nearly so callous if it were their own childern who had been brutally murdered. The Judgment awaits us all, and we will no doubt be judged by how we treat "the least of these".

Thank you brother!



Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2011, 07:02:07 PM »

I had a "movement" occur from this photo.  The acid in my stomach nearly "moved" up through my esophagus and out of my mouth.  

If I, who have aborted, can look at photos of dead babies like that and not go screaming out into the night, then surely we all can look and know what we do, either by our own volitional acts or by inaction.  Those who are active in the pro-life movement have become acclimated to viewing the results of Roe v. Wade.  I will admit that it has taken me a long time to look and there are times when I cannot or times when the shock is visceral, but I look in any event, and I do not complain, for I trust His mercy and His justice.

War and dismemberment do the same thing to me, but there comes a time when trust in God MUST outweigh all else...but the images of the results of our stiff necks should ultimately inspire humility and not anger or bile.

M.


Amen ElijahMaria! Well said. Thank you.


Selam

Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2011, 07:25:41 PM »

Thank you for psoting this JR. It is conveys a powerful and necessary truth. While some may be upset because this tragic image merely upsets their appetite, others will have their hearts broken and be moved to tears and then to action. It is really sad that professing Orthodox Christians would have any reaction to this anti-abortion message other than deep sorrow and wholehearted support for the truth you have conveyed. Please be assured that there are many of us who are behind you 100%. Don't let these heartless negative reactions discourage you. These same people wouldn't be nearly so callous if it were their own childern who had been brutally murdered. The Judgment awaits us all, and we will no doubt be judged by how we treat "the least of these".

Thank you brother!
So you don't think it's possible that some could agree 100% with the message yet deem the method one chooses to proclaim the message 100% wrong? Why use such graphic images to proclaim the message to a community where almost all agree with its content, and why on the Orthodox Family Forum?
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2011, 07:36:33 PM »

Thank you for psoting this JR. It is conveys a powerful and necessary truth. While some may be upset because this tragic image merely upsets their appetite, others will have their hearts broken and be moved to tears and then to action. It is really sad that professing Orthodox Christians would have any reaction to this anti-abortion message other than deep sorrow and wholehearted support for the truth you have conveyed. Please be assured that there are many of us who are behind you 100%. Don't let these heartless negative reactions discourage you. These same people wouldn't be nearly so callous if it were their own childern who had been brutally murdered. The Judgment awaits us all, and we will no doubt be judged by how we treat "the least of these".

Thank you brother!
So you don't think it's possible that some could agree 100% with the message yet deem the method one chooses to proclaim the message 100% wrong? Why use such graphic images to proclaim the message to a community where almost all agree with its content, and why on the Orthodox Family Forum?


If others feel there is a more effective way to promote the cause of Life, then they should do that. IMO, the OP is very effective and appropriate because 1) it shows the harsh and disturbing reality of abortion, 2) it conveys a message of empathy, 3) it gives voice to the voiceless, and 4)it compassionately appeals to the hearts of mothers considering abortion without merely saying "murderer!"

So, I find it a well rounded message that is absolutely appropriate. And as someone else has mentioned, this message has indeed saved lives. I have seen this very message handed out to women outside of abortion clinics, and I have seen it change the minds of abortion-minded women.

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2011, 08:07:30 PM »

I'll admit that the story does appeal to some who consider abortion. I work with teenage girls and know of two that did not have an abortion after reading something like that sent to them from a friend.   I also know of one that read something like that after having an abortion and attempted suicide. I also know that for many (most?) girls/young women that I have worked with, the story would have a deleterious effect.  The story probably appeals more to those who have never had an abortion and to those who may or may not have had abortions, but have a stable worldview.  Abortion is an evil, don't get me wrong, I've seen its ugly face too many times, but like some others have said, are we interested in truly eradicating it?  If so, then you have to be willing to make an extreme emotional and physical investmentr.  Posting stories on the internet does not suffice.  Posting stories that appeal to our own emotions, but has little to say to those actually experiencing the unfathomable darkness of contemplating abortion (yes, contemplating it is a great darkness in and of itself), is a failure on the face of it.  In my experience, most people are just not willing to make the investment needed.    

OK y'all, meet good cop.

-Bad cop


O! Norm...I admit that I am surprised by your responses here and on the other abortion topic currently active.  I would not have predicted your responses.

Why the need for a bad cop in a discussion on abortion in a Catholic venue [naming you and other Orthodox as Catholic here, since I can accurately, and feel like it]

M.

Because you have to reign in the nonsense.

Why are you surprised?

I've spoke my piece on this before, search abortion with my name under advance search.

If this stuff worked, abortion would be a thing of the past.

What is required is for Christians to take their own seriously, which almost none do, certain not the recent thread makers. There's your bad cop.

Blather about murder, holding signs, pumping vulgar photos, changes the hearts of nearly no one.

Christian ought to be on the frontline of care and supporting women from day one of their lives from the poorest to the wealthiest. Willing to sit with them through an "unwanted" pregnancy. Not creating atmosphere's guilt and the like.

And in the lives of men from day one teaching them how to care and respect women.

The rhetoric around here lately has been back slapping, choir preaching, hollow gestures.

Again, I've asked the creators of these threads what they DID today about the holocaust (they don't believe their own words, in my search you will see that I have proven this) and what they would have us DO.

And I get *crickets*.

Abortion ain't murder. It ain't a holocaust. It is the ending of a human life in a legally and in pretty much a socially acceptable way by women who often are in pain or who perhaps worse, aren't.

That should be enough for any Christian to want to minister to these women and all women.

I don't need the mercurial shock rhetoric or numbers games to keep this mind.

Numbers don't matter. Pictures don't matter.

I want to hear what these "defenders" of the faith are doing that WORKS and ain't played out '78.

Till, I'll do what I do. Call BS on Christians when they need it.

And if you to discuss what does "work" PM. I doubt we would disagree.


Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2011, 08:10:07 PM »

Thank you for psoting this JR. It is conveys a powerful and necessary truth. While some may be upset because this tragic image merely upsets their appetite, others will have their hearts broken and be moved to tears and then to action. It is really sad that professing Orthodox Christians would have any reaction to this anti-abortion message other than deep sorrow and wholehearted support for the truth you have conveyed. Please be assured that there are many of us who are behind you 100%. Don't let these heartless negative reactions discourage you. These same people wouldn't be nearly so callous if it were their own childern who had been brutally murdered. The Judgment awaits us all, and we will no doubt be judged by how we treat "the least of these".

Thank you brother!
So you don't think it's possible that some could agree 100% with the message yet deem the method one chooses to proclaim the message 100% wrong? Why use such graphic images to proclaim the message to a community where almost all agree with its content, and why on the Orthodox Family Forum?


If others feel there is a more effective way to promote the cause of Life, then they should do that. IMO, the OP is very effective and appropriate because 1) it shows the harsh and disturbing reality of abortion, 2) it conveys a message of empathy, 3) it gives voice to the voiceless, and 4)it compassionately appeals to the hearts of mothers considering abortion without merely saying "murderer!"

So, I find it a well rounded message that is absolutely appropriate. And as someone else has mentioned, this message has indeed saved lives. I have seen this very message handed out to women outside of abortion clinics, and I have seen it change the minds of abortion-minded women.

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


If this worked, abortion would be a thing of the past or used very rarely.

Again this stuff was shown useless back in '78.

Enjoy your back-slapping with each other.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2011, 08:13:05 PM »

Thank you for psoting this JR. It is conveys a powerful and necessary truth. While some may be upset because this tragic image merely upsets their appetite, others will have their hearts broken and be moved to tears and then to action. It is really sad that professing Orthodox Christians would have any reaction to this anti-abortion message other than deep sorrow and wholehearted support for the truth you have conveyed. Please be assured that there are many of us who are behind you 100%. Don't let these heartless negative reactions discourage you. These same people wouldn't be nearly so callous if it were their own childern who had been brutally murdered. The Judgment awaits us all, and we will no doubt be judged by how we treat "the least of these".

Thank you brother!
So you don't think it's possible that some could agree 100% with the message yet deem the method one chooses to proclaim the message 100% wrong? Why use such graphic images to proclaim the message to a community where almost all agree with its content, and why on the Orthodox Family Forum?


If others feel there is a more effective way to promote the cause of Life, then they should do that. IMO, the OP is very effective and appropriate because 1) it shows the harsh and disturbing reality of abortion, 2) it conveys a message of empathy, 3) it gives voice to the voiceless, and 4)it compassionately appeals to the hearts of mothers considering abortion without merely saying "murderer!"

So, I find it a well rounded message that is absolutely appropriate. And as someone else has mentioned, this message has indeed saved lives. I have seen this very message handed out to women outside of abortion clinics, and I have seen it change the minds of abortion-minded women.
And yet, you're still focused on the message, which I don't question. However, many here who have no problem with JR's message are turned off by the method he has chosen to communicate it. You, however, appear to equate the message and the method as though they are one and the same, as if criticism of the method is the same as criticism of the message. They are not the same.

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.
However, those who post on the Orthodox Family Forum tend to be a lot more homogeneous in their adherence to the Orthodox faith than the general forum membership.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2011, 08:20:39 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2011, 08:27:39 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.
Logged

orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2011, 08:31:52 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.

I truly don't follow.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2011, 08:36:12 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.

I truly don't follow.

Then we are even because your reactions have me at a total loss...and the intensity of your negative reaction, to the point of being personally insulting,  to anyone pressing the idea that the images are as effective as the words is strange to me.

I would not have numbered you among the squeamish.
Logged

That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,155


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2011, 08:38:33 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.

I truly don't follow.

Then we are even because your reactions have me at a total loss...and the intensity of your negative reaction, to the point of being personally insulting,  to anyone pressing the idea that the images are as effective as the words is strange to me.

I would not have numbered you among the squeamish.
It doesn't strike me as squeamishness as much as it does distaste for poorly-written arguments rooted entirely in appeal to emotion.
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
William
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2011, 08:39:46 PM »

It would have been nice to have had a warning before seeing that horrible picture.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2011, 08:44:39 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.

I truly don't follow.

Then we are even because your reactions have me at a total loss...and the intensity of your negative reaction, to the point of being personally insulting,  to anyone pressing the idea that the images are as effective as the words is strange to me.

I would not have numbered you among the squeamish.
It doesn't strike me as squeamishness as much as it does distaste for poorly-written arguments rooted entirely in appeal to emotion.

Then we are back to my saying that the intent of the images and text is NOT to establish an academic argument against abortion.

Sin of that magnitude is not moved by the cool breezes of rational thought.

Sin of that magnitude is moved by horror and compunction for that horror.

The pictures and words are not meant to promote calm logic but the realization of the horror of the act.

That approach to sin has its place. 

Most of us are too cool to really face the horror of our sin.

I was NOT suggesting that orthonorm's reaction was "squeamishness" in a girlie sense...heh! I'll get shot for that one...but in the sense of a resistance...a violent resistance...to the harshness of the reality of abortion.

I am trying to understand that reaction.  I would not have predicted that from him.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 08:46:16 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2011, 08:44:56 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.
1.  Gebre is not the one who brought up this "content/form" dichotomy. I am.
2.  How is it rubbish?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2011, 08:45:55 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.

I truly don't follow.

Then we are even because your reactions have me at a total loss...and the intensity of your negative reaction, to the point of being personally insulting,  to anyone pressing the idea that the images are as effective as the words is strange to me.

I would not have numbered you among the squeamish.
It doesn't strike me as squeamishness as much as it does distaste for poorly-written arguments rooted entirely in appeal to emotion.
EXACTLY!
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2011, 08:47:51 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.
1.  Gebre is not the one who brought up this "content/form" dichotomy. I am.
2.  How is it rubbish?

Truly all due respect, srsly, I don't care so much about getting into ontology right now, I am interested in hearing from Gebre what the content is, and who doesn't agree with it here.

Again, I tire of the righteous, vague, finger pointing.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2011, 08:48:44 PM »

In response to PtA:


Sin of that magnitude is not moved by the cool breezes of rational thought.

Sin of that magnitude is moved by horror and compunction for that horror.

The pictures and words are not meant to promote calm logic but the realization of the horror of the act.

That approach to sin has its place. 

Most of us are too cool to really face the horror of our sin.


Logged

PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2011, 08:50:13 PM »

In response to PtA:


Sin of that magnitude is not moved by the cool breezes of rational thought.

Sin of that magnitude is moved by horror and compunction for that horror.

The pictures and words are not meant to promote calm logic but the realization of the horror of the act.

That approach to sin has its place. 

Most of us are too cool to really face the horror of our sin.


Okay, I can read. Why do you need to quote one of your own posts just to direct it as a reply to me?
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2011, 08:51:01 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.
1.  Gebre is not the one who brought up this "content/form" dichotomy. I am.
2.  How is it rubbish?

Truly all due respect, srsly, I don't care so much about getting into ontology right now, I am interested in hearing from Gebre what the content is, and who doesn't agree with it here.

Again, I tire of the righteous, vague, finger pointing.



Can you state plainly your objection?

Is it simply that the message is posted where it is posted?

Are you suggesting that no one here could benefit from it because...?

Is that all that's bothering you.

I am still confused by what you are doing.  It seems to me to be an over-reaction.
Logged

orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2011, 09:13:57 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.
1.  Gebre is not the one who brought up this "content/form" dichotomy. I am.
2.  How is it rubbish?

Truly all due respect, srsly, I don't care so much about getting into ontology right now, I am interested in hearing from Gebre what the content is, and who doesn't agree with it here.

Again, I tire of the righteous, vague, finger pointing.



Can you state plainly your objection?

Is it simply that the message is posted where it is posted?

Are you suggesting that no one here could benefit from it because...?

Is that all that's bothering you.

I am still confused by what you are doing.  It seems to me to be an over-reaction.

In this post? Gebre patented approach of his passive-aggressive method of argument and insult.

I want to know in his words what the "content" is of the OP and who specifically (name names) he thinks disagrees with that content.

Seems pretty straightforward.

But your question is about something else. Maybe I will for the x time explain why I hold self-righteous and "pious" folks feet to the fire concerning certain issues.

Probably won't. Since no one remembers, it seems repeating it again to be pointless.

But it doesn't take much work to do well, what has been done here.

Someone ought to do it.

As for an "over reaction", not so much. I play internetz one way, others another. And there has been a rising tide of certain stuff around here for a while that has been begging to be squelched. And yes that is intentionally vague as it would go OT.

The squelching time has come.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2011, 09:20:36 PM »



The squelching time has come.



I don't see what you see.  But this may be the wrong topic in which to do it in any event.

Let's not be too hard on one another.  Truly.

M.

PS: I see you've been warned.  What for I don't know but I don't want to add to that.  Forgive.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 09:22:25 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2011, 09:32:27 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.
1.  Gebre is not the one who brought up this "content/form" dichotomy. I am.
2.  How is it rubbish?

Truly all due respect, srsly, I don't care so much about getting into ontology right now, I am interested in hearing from Gebre what the content is, and who doesn't agree with it here.

Again, I tire of the righteous, vague, finger pointing.



Can you state plainly your objection?

Is it simply that the message is posted where it is posted?

Are you suggesting that no one here could benefit from it because...?

Is that all that's bothering you.

I am still confused by what you are doing.  It seems to me to be an over-reaction.

In this post? Gebre patented approach of his passive-aggressive method of argument and insult.
Glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

I want to know in his words what the "content" is of the OP and who specifically (name names) he thinks disagrees with that content.

Seems pretty straightforward.

But your question is about something else. Maybe I will for the x time explain why I hold self-righteous and "pious" folks feet to the fire concerning certain issues.

Probably won't. Since no one remembers, it seems repeating it again to be pointless.

But it doesn't take much work to do well, what has been done here.

Someone ought to do it.

As for an "over reaction", not so much. I play internetz one way, others another. And there has been a rising tide of certain stuff around here for a while that has been begging to be squelched. And yes that is intentionally vague as it would go OT.

The squelching time has come.
Challenged? Yes.

Feet held to the fire? Yes.

Squelched? No. People have just as much right to say stupid stuff as you have to call them on their stupid stuff. Despite what you may think and what others on another stupid thread may say about you, you're not the emperor of this forum.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 09:33:50 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2011, 09:35:55 PM »

I do not object to the fact that this photo was put on the board, I object to the fact that this photo was put at the very top of a thread, without any warning of any kind.  People should not be subjected to these shock tactics - especially people who oppose abortion. 
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2011, 09:35:55 PM »

Thank you for psoting this JR. It is conveys a powerful and necessary truth. While some may be upset because this tragic image merely upsets their appetite, others will have their hearts broken and be moved to tears and then to action. It is really sad that professing Orthodox Christians would have any reaction to this anti-abortion message other than deep sorrow and wholehearted support for the truth you have conveyed. Please be assured that there are many of us who are behind you 100%. Don't let these heartless negative reactions discourage you. These same people wouldn't be nearly so callous if it were their own childern who had been brutally murdered. The Judgment awaits us all, and we will no doubt be judged by how we treat "the least of these".

Thank you brother!

Selam

My cousin recently killed himself.  Had he done so with a gun, should I have posted a picture on the forum of him with blood on the floor around him, and with a bullet hole through his head, in an effort to raise awareness for suicide?  No one on here has supported abortion despite what your self-righteous arguments claim.  Rather, we've said that this is an infantile way to denounce abortions.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,155


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2011, 09:40:13 PM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.

I truly don't follow.

Then we are even because your reactions have me at a total loss...and the intensity of your negative reaction, to the point of being personally insulting,  to anyone pressing the idea that the images are as effective as the words is strange to me.

I would not have numbered you among the squeamish.
It doesn't strike me as squeamishness as much as it does distaste for poorly-written arguments rooted entirely in appeal to emotion.

Then we are back to my saying that the intent of the images and text is NOT to establish an academic argument against abortion.

Sin of that magnitude is not moved by the cool breezes of rational thought.

Sin of that magnitude is moved by horror and compunction for that horror.

The pictures and words are not meant to promote calm logic but the realization of the horror of the act.

That approach to sin has its place. 

Most of us are too cool to really face the horror of our sin.

I was NOT suggesting that orthonorm's reaction was "squeamishness" in a girlie sense...heh! I'll get shot for that one...but in the sense of a resistance...a violent resistance...to the harshness of the reality of abortion.

I am trying to understand that reaction.  I would not have predicted that from him.
While we mustn't neglect to be able to address it rationally, it's true that abortion should bring out a certain indigence from us. Something like what's in the OP, crafted to manipulate emotions largely by projecting a thought process onto a fetus that a fetus couldn't possess, seems to betray the intense gravity the issue merits.
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2011, 09:46:36 PM »



The squelching time has come.



I don't see what you see.  But this may be the wrong topic in which to do it in any event.

Let's not be too hard on one another.  Truly.

M.

PS: I see you've been warned.  What for I don't know but I don't want to add to that.  Forgive.


Forgive what?

You are always welcome EM!

You have yet to offend or harm me. Nor would you add to anything. I know the game around here. The fact I went 4000+ without ever being modded is a miracle.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2011, 09:48:08 PM »

Squelched? No. People have just as much right to say stupid stuff as you have to call them on their stupid stuff. Despite what you may think and what others on another stupid thread may say about you, you're not the emperor of this forum.

And yet the squelching I will do.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2011, 09:50:48 PM »

Squelched? No. People have just as much right to say stupid stuff as you have to call them on their stupid stuff. Despite what you may think and what others on another stupid thread may say about you, you're not the emperor of this forum.

And yet the squelching I will do.
No, you won't. police
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2011, 09:55:53 PM »

Squelched? No. People have just as much right to say stupid stuff as you have to call them on their stupid stuff. Despite what you may think and what others on another stupid thread may say about you, you're not the emperor of this forum.

And yet the squelching I will do.
No, you won't. police

Already happening.

Vacuity abhors a vacuum and I am holding the hoover.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 09:56:50 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2011, 10:18:02 PM »

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

I have been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was deeply moved by the photos of mass graves and even just the piles of shoes. How is that not the same thing.

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.

Yes, the Church should listen to and help these poor mothers. That is our great failure in this issue. But don't venture to mitigate the horror of what this holocaust actually is—nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions of human persons.

A zygote is not a human person in the exact same way a mother of five is. It is a living human zygote. It should be protected so one day it can become a mother of five but until you see that there is a fundamental difference your language  wont persuade and your  tactics wont work.

Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2011, 10:24:59 PM »

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

I have been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was deeply moved by the photos of mass graves and even just the piles of shoes. How is that not the same thing.

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.

Yes, the Church should listen to and help these poor mothers. That is our great failure in this issue. But don't venture to mitigate the horror of what this holocaust actually is—nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions of human persons.

A zygote is not a human person in the exact same way a mother of five is. It is a living human zygote. It should be protected so one day it can become a mother of five but until you see that there is a fundamental difference your language  wont persuade and your  tactics wont work.



Well on this outta the box thinking I admire your chutzpah to keep putting it out there.

There are more than a few posters here I would like to see discuss their ideas about personhood from conception till death from old age. More than a little nuance happening here and there on this board that could be fruitful to get into a room together.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,452


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2011, 10:28:43 PM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2011, 10:45:12 PM »

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

I have been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was deeply moved by the photos of mass graves and even just the piles of shoes. How is that not the same thing.

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.

Yes, the Church should listen to and help these poor mothers. That is our great failure in this issue. But don't venture to mitigate the horror of what this holocaust actually is—nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions of human persons.

A zygote is not a human person in the exact same way a mother of five is. It is a living human zygote. It should be protected so one day it can become a mother of five but until you see that there is a fundamental difference your language  wont persuade and your  tactics wont work.



I'm sorry, but you're wrong.



Was Christ not Incarnate at the moment of the Annunciation? This icon says he was. We obviously don't know if He was a zygote proper, since we don't know how the Theotokos conceived, but He certainly was an embryo. If God became an embryo, then an embryo bears His divine image and by any standard is a human person.

The God-Man is the God-Man, regardless of what stage of development He was in. Your theory necessarily requires that Christ was not fully Man from the moment of the Annunciation, but He developed into full humanity. That is not compatible with the Church's teachings on the Incarnation. Nor is it compatible with the above icon, which shows Christ, fully God and fully Man at the moment of the Incarnation.

And so: an embryo is biologically human, genetically unique from its parents, and bears the image of God, considering Christ was fully Man as an embryo. I don't see how anything beyond that is relevant.

I place human life on the highest pedestal, and I do not draw degrees in humanity, because humanity does not develop or change. It is human or it isn't. Human life is of ultimate worth, period. If that's a "tactic" to you, I'm sorry, but we have irreconcilable differences.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 10:56:17 PM by bogdan » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2011, 10:45:40 PM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2011, 10:53:42 PM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?

Prepare for rapture! The end is near! Great post!
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,452


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2011, 10:54:27 PM »

Thank you for saying that PeterTheAleut, that is precisely what I was thinking/feeling. I am completely against abortion. But I can never align myself with anyone that can take a photo of someone that they consider a person, and use it to promote their means/goal. That is making that baby a thing, an object- rather than treating the baby with love and respect.

For the record there are actually photographers that specialize in taking photos of stillborn babies. They are beautiful photos that are lovingly done. I don't object to photos of dead babies as a whole (although it does bring a very emotional response). I object to photos of dead babies that are done purely for sensationalist/propaganda reasons.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 10:57:10 PM by Quinault » Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,076


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2011, 11:22:32 PM »

Thank you for saying that PeterTheAleut, that is precisely what I was thinking/feeling. I am completely against abortion. But I can never align myself with anyone that can take a photo of someone that they consider a person, and use it to promote their means/goal. That is making that baby a thing, an object- rather than treating the baby with love and respect.

Thanks for posting these thoughts, with which I agree. I too, have suffered a miscarriage.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Seraphim Rose
President of Democracy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: [Eastern] Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 76


2000 Years of Ninjas Wailing on Guitar


« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2011, 11:34:49 PM »

What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?

Agreed! That is the content/form issue right there. Content: human lives destroyed daily, unjustly. Form: photograph of a dead fetus, with questionable link to an abortion, for the sole effect of causing a gut response.

It would seem that the right response to this picture would be to pray for the baby. Not to post it to internetz.
Logged

It ain't who you know. It's what who you know know.
Seraphim Rose
President of Democracy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: [Eastern] Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 76


2000 Years of Ninjas Wailing on Guitar


« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2011, 11:45:04 PM »

Anyone else object to the fetishization of the unjust killing of babies?

Yes, they are innocent. But if I recall Christ's teachings, it the violation of innocence which is the great crime against the innocent. Scandalizing the little ones...

I suggest it is a greater crime to cause a young person, by one's own perversion of soul, to fall into sin, then to end that innocent life.

Quote from: Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

No sin here is involved on the part of the innocent, and no harm is done to innocence.

We might surmise that the greatest harm is in fact done to themselves by those who perform, pay for, insist on, and have abortions. A father who forces his daughter to have an abortion might be sinning more against her... than against the aborted.

In order to avoid facing guilt, repentence may never occur.

Perhaps it is the secularized soul which permits abortion which is most in need of healing, and our prayers and action?

Perhaps it is not those killed in the "abortion mills" who are the greatest victims, but the women themselves?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 11:47:38 PM by Seraphim Rose » Logged

It ain't who you know. It's what who you know know.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2011, 11:50:08 PM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Seraphim Rose
President of Democracy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: [Eastern] Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 76


2000 Years of Ninjas Wailing on Guitar


« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2011, 11:54:38 PM »

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  

Civil rights protesters did what they did knowing the TV cameras were coming. The witness was in the revealing of violence. But they took the violence upon themselves. It was all tactical, 100%. It worked because, as Christ did, these people took the violence upon themselves, for the greater good.

Perhaps these aborted dead are being used, without the consent they cannot give. These dead do not belong to us.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 11:58:48 PM by Seraphim Rose » Logged

It ain't who you know. It's what who you know know.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2011, 11:59:09 PM »

Thank you for saying that PeterTheAleut, that is precisely what I was thinking/feeling. I am completely against abortion. But I can never align myself with anyone that can take a photo of someone that they consider a person, and use it to promote their means/goal. That is making that baby a thing, an object- rather than treating the baby with love and respect.

Thanks for posting these thoughts, with which I agree. I too, have suffered a miscarriage.


Yeah, I've lost a child to miscarriage and the loss of my 11 week old daughter. What does that have to do with the unfounded and disgraceful accusation that the OP is objectifying this baby rather than treating it with love and respect? Contempt is a greater evil than hate, because hate at least involves an emotional connection with another human being, whereas contempt refuses to even acknowledge the humanity of another person. So, for you all to say that the OP is not revering this aborted human being with love and respect is slanderous, judgmental, and quite frankly shameful. Did you not read the words attached to the photo? If you did, then you should know that the OP is doing exactly the opposite of objectifying this poor baby; it is actually recognizing and highlighting its personhood. If it bothers you, too bad! In fact, why don't you stop using your own miscarriage as a cheap ploy to criticize the Pro-Life message of the OP? You're not the only one who has suffered the loss of a child.



Selam
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 12:01:43 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2011, 12:02:08 AM »

That's not exactly true. You can be against abortion with the understanding that the life of a fetus is not exactly the same thing as the life of an Adult. It is in a separate and unique category. So attempts to equate abortion with Mass Murder, or with the European Holocaust etc will fall on deaf ears.

We are not a soul encased inside a body. We are body and soul. If the body is in a very early stage it's experience is extremely limited. So when people put an equal sign between a Woman and her children being sent to the Gas Chamber during the Holocaust with the death of a fetus, it rightly confuses people . Their own good common sense tells them that these are two different types of events.

There should be no abortion. The way to stop abortion is by making a persuasive moral and religious argument. Trying to shock people with ghastly pictures, drawing false comparisons and talking to people who are pro-abortion like they are murderers will absolutely guarantee that Abortions will continue in outrageous number. It's a bad tactic.

The way to persuade people is to listen twice as much as you speak. God gave us two ears and just one mouth. Our moral argument should win over people but only if it is done with patience and humility.

A human life is a human life. Every body-soul being that is human is equally human and has equal value. So I reject wholesale that mass murder and abortion are different things.

I have been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC and was deeply moved by the photos of mass graves and even just the piles of shoes. How is that not the same thing.

That people are not moved by an image of a dismembered human being shows what a stone-hearted, godless, and evil society this has become. This ain't some philosophical treatise we're talking about. No form of mass-murder is.

Yes, the Church should listen to and help these poor mothers. That is our great failure in this issue. But don't venture to mitigate the horror of what this holocaust actually is—nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions of human persons.

A zygote is not a human person in the exact same way a mother of five is. It is a living human zygote. It should be protected so one day it can become a mother of five but until you see that there is a fundamental difference your language  wont persuade and your  tactics wont work.



Well on this outta the box thinking I admire your chutzpah to keep putting it out there.

There are more than a few posters here I would like to see discuss their ideas about personhood from conception till death from old age. More than a little nuance happening here and there on this board that could be fruitful to get into a room together.



The assumption that a human life is a human life is a human life doesnt hold up well.

How about very old age?

God forbid, but if you ever have to decide what to do with someone incapacitated in a nursing home you can quickly see your equal sign fade.

  How about a 92 year old who has lost all awareness, screams every few minutes and is starting to curl up in a fetal position? The Nursing home will want you to put in a feeding tube.  That will extend life a couple of years. The home stands to make at least $150,000 over two years.

 Don't put it in and the end will come in a few weeks. A life is a life right? Two more years is a long time. So jam in that feeding tube and get yourself another two years of not knowing who you are or where you are and let them feed you down to a puddle on the sheets because a life is a life is a life.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2011, 12:08:13 AM »

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  

Civil rights protesters did what they did knowing the TV cameras were coming. The witness was in the revealing of violence. But they took the violence upon themselves. It was all tactical, 100%. It worked because, as Christ did, these people took the violence upon themselves, for the greater good.

Perhaps these aborted dead are being used, without the consent they cannot give. These dead do not belong to us.


If they don't belong to us, then who the hell are you to determine that they should be discarded and aborted without their tortuous deaths being exposed?

BTW, pure pragmatism is not the philosophy of Orthodox Christianity. We are not to live and act only in ways that will profit us personally or profit our pet cause. We are to live and act in Truth, and in doing so we must strive to be "wise as serpents and innocent as doves." It's not about doing what "works;" it's about doing what's right, what's in the best interest of our neighbor- regardless of what the world thinks.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Seraphim Rose
President of Democracy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: [Eastern] Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 76


2000 Years of Ninjas Wailing on Guitar


« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2011, 12:12:40 AM »

How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  

I wager it was precisely the white people whose lives would be changed the least by the enactment of civil rights who were the least opposed to it, whose meals were the least disturbed. Who found segregation, practical lack of suffrage, and all the injustices, to be simply tasteless.

Throwing these images around is like showing pictures of the Holocaust. They are a testament to the depravity of souls. I usually feel more horror for the Germans who had to go on living after they had committed the atrocities, than for the fate of the dead. Perhaps, though, those who despaired in the camps -- horror at their despair, and whatever sins of selfishness the camps would have encouraged.

The enshrining of the images of Holocaust victims, as with images of the aborted (which this image may not be), bring to mind the following:

Quote from: Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 12:13:47 AM by Seraphim Rose » Logged

It ain't who you know. It's what who you know know.
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2011, 12:17:06 AM »

The assumption that a human life is a human life is a human life doesnt hold up well.

How about very old age?

God forbid, but if you ever have to decide what to do with someone incapacitated in a nursing home you can quickly see your equal sign fade.

  How about a 92 year old who has lost all awareness, screams every few minutes and is starting to curl up in a fetal position? The Nursing home will want you to put in a feeding tube.  That will extend life a couple of years. The home stands to make at least $150,000 over two years.

 Don't put it in and the end will come in a few weeks. A life is a life right? Two more years is a long time. So jam in that feeding tube and get yourself another two years of not knowing who you are or where you are and let them feed you down to a puddle on the sheets because a life is a life is a life.

Very old people are also human beings, shockingly enough. Even those who have lost their minds.

My beloved great-grandmother drove until she was in her 80s. In 2000 or something, she got into a car accident and lost her mind, and my grandparents spent vast amounts of money to care for her until they were nearly broke. She reposed in 2005 a shadow of her former self, shouting at people and soiling herself. But she was still a human and was given the right to live for as long as the Lord allowed her to. I am thankful for my grandparents' witness in this, and I will do the same for my parents someday, because they are human beings regardless.

No infanticide at the beginning of life, and no suicide or mercy killing on the other end of life. From conception to natural death. A human is a human. Period.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 12:21:19 AM by bogdan » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2011, 12:19:06 AM »

How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  

I wager it was precisely the white people whose lives would be changed the least by the enactment of civil rights who were the least opposed to it, whose meals were the least disturbed. Who found segregation, practical lack of suffrage, and all the injustices, to be simply tasteless.

Throwing these images around is like showing pictures of the Holocaust. They are a testament to the depravity of souls. I usually feel more horror for the Germans who had to go on living after they had committed the atrocities, than for the fate of the dead. Perhaps, though, those who despaired in the camps -- horror at their despair, and whatever sins of selfishness the camps would have encouraged.

The images of Holocaust victims, as with images of the aborted (which this image may not be), bring to mind the following:

Quote from: Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.


It's unfortunate that you have formed such a false dichotomy in your thought process. Any and all human injustices, evils, and inhumanities vicitmize the oppressed as much as the oppressor. One of the biggest reaons I oppose abortion is because it scars and decimates the souls of the women who have abortions as well as all those involved in the facilitation of abortion. You should read "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon sometime; it is a powerful explanation of the the psychological damage incurred by those who systematically victimize and oppress other human beings.


Selam
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 12:19:59 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2011, 12:22:15 AM »

The assumption that a human life is a human life is a human life doesnt hold up well.

How about very old age?

God forbid, but if you ever have to decide what to do with someone incapacitated in a nursing home you can quickly see your equal sign fade.

  How about a 92 year old who has lost all awareness, screams every few minutes and is starting to curl up in a fetal position? The Nursing home will want you to put in a feeding tube.  That will extend life a couple of years. The home stands to make at least $150,000 over two years.

 Don't put it in and the end will come in a few weeks. A life is a life right? Two more years is a long time. So jam in that feeding tube and get yourself another two years of not knowing who you are or where you are and let them feed you down to a puddle on the sheets because a life is a life is a life.

Very old people are also human beings, shockingly enough. Even those who have lost their minds.

My beloved great-grandmother drove until she was in her 80s. In 2000 or something, she got into a car accident and lost her mind, and my grandparents spent vast amounts of money to care for her until they were nearly broke. She reposed in 2005 a shadow of her former self, shouting at people and soiling herself. But she was still a human and was given the right to live for as long as the Lord allowed her to. I will do the same for my parents someday, because they are human beings regardless.

No infanticide at the beginning of life, and no suicide or mercy killing on the other end of life. From conception to natural death. A human is a human. Period.


Yes. Thank you for this clarity my friend.



Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Seraphim Rose
President of Democracy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: [Eastern] Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 76


2000 Years of Ninjas Wailing on Guitar


« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2011, 12:32:34 AM »

It's unfortunate that you have formed such a false dichotomy in your thought process. Any and all human injustices, evils, and inhumanities vicitmize the oppressed as much as the oppressor. One of the biggest reaons I oppose abortion is because it scars and decimates the souls of the women who have abortions as well as all those involved in the facilitation of abortion. You should read "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon sometime; it is a powerful explanation of the the psychological damage incurred by those who systematically victimize and oppress other human beings.

I submit that you are wrong on the bolded point.

EDIT: Otherwise, I agree with you entirely.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 12:33:01 AM by Seraphim Rose » Logged

It ain't who you know. It's what who you know know.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2011, 12:40:05 AM »

It's unfortunate that you have formed such a false dichotomy in your thought process. Any and all human injustices, evils, and inhumanities vicitmize the oppressed as much well as the oppressor. One of the biggest reaons I oppose abortion is because it scars and decimates the souls of the women who have abortions as well as all those involved in the facilitation of abortion. You should read "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon sometime; it is a powerful explanation of the the psychological damage incurred by those who systematically victimize and oppress other human beings.



I submit that you are wrong on the bolded point.

EDIT: Otherwise, I agree with you entirely.


I have ammended my statement above. I should have been a bit more careful with what I wrote. Thanks for your comments.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Seraphim Rose
President of Democracy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: [Eastern] Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 76


2000 Years of Ninjas Wailing on Guitar


« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2011, 12:55:14 AM »


It's unfortunate that you have formed such a false dichotomy in your thought process. Any and all human injustices, evils, and inhumanities vicitmize the oppressed as much well as the oppressor. One of the biggest reaons I oppose abortion is because it scars and decimates the souls of the women who have abortions as well as all those involved in the facilitation of abortion. You should read "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon sometime; it is a powerful explanation of the the psychological damage incurred by those who systematically victimize and oppress other human beings.

I agree with you.

Logged

It ain't who you know. It's what who you know know.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2011, 01:46:30 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 01:49:18 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2011, 02:11:55 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.


Selam
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 02:34:44 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2011, 02:23:05 AM »

As for this forum being a community where almost all agree with its content, I wish I could believe you.



Selam


Aside from the silly content / form dichotomy you raise which is rubbish, what is the "content" and who doesn't "agree" with it.

Stop your passive-aggression.

This seems far more offensive to me than photographs of badly used and abused babies.

This turns the horror of murdering children in the womb into some kind of academic exercise.

Perhaps THIS is why we make so few inroads against the murderous practice...eh?

I think so anyway. 

We are too willing to put something...anything...between us and the reality.

I truly don't follow.

Then we are even because your reactions have me at a total loss...and the intensity of your negative reaction, to the point of being personally insulting,  to anyone pressing the idea that the images are as effective as the words is strange to me.

I would not have numbered you among the squeamish.
It doesn't strike me as squeamishness as much as it does distaste for poorly-written arguments rooted entirely in appeal to emotion.

Without commenting on this thread in particular, I feel compelled to say -- what is wrong with an appeal to emotion?

"Two times two is four" is not life, gentlemen. Sometimes our heads obscure the law which is written by the Divine Hand on our twisted and blackened hearts.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 02:25:56 AM by akimori makoto » Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2011, 02:45:29 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.
Gebre, would you do everyone a favor here? Your replies to me show no understanding of anything I just said, and you're projecting onto me motives I never had. Would you please leave this thread alone for a few days and come back after you've calmed down a bit? Maybe then we'll be able to reason together more effectively.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 02:52:51 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2011, 02:57:21 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!   


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.
Gebre, would you do everyone a favor here? Your replies to me show no understanding of anything I just said. Would you please leave this thread alone for a few days and come back after you've calmed down a bit? Maybe then we'll be able to reason together more effectively.


Ahh yes, the same old projection from you Peter. I am and have remained calm throughout this thread. Don't confuse impassioned and reasoned argument for lack of poise. I'm sure it would be very convenient for you if I bowed out of this important discussion, but I shall not do you that favor. Distract and divert all you want, and when you can't address the merits of the issue, then you can always resort to your warnings and moderation. But remember this, you have not persuaded a man simply because you have silenced him.

Yes, I have challenged your integrity. Please prove me wrong.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2011, 04:15:32 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!   


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.
Gebre, would you do everyone a favor here? Your replies to me show no understanding of anything I just said. Would you please leave this thread alone for a few days and come back after you've calmed down a bit? Maybe then we'll be able to reason together more effectively.


Ahh yes, the same old projection from you Peter. I am and have remained calm throughout this thread. Don't confuse impassioned and reasoned argument for lack of poise. I'm sure it would be very convenient for you if I bowed out of this important discussion, but I shall not do you that favor. Distract and divert all you want, and when you can't address the merits of the issue, then you can always resort to your warnings and moderation. But remember this, you have not persuaded a man simply because you have silenced him.
Do you honestly think I'm trying to silence you? So much so that you would even insinuate that I would abuse my moderatorial authority in ways that, in all the years we've sparred with each other, I've never done toward you?

Do you not realize that you're now doing to me the very things you accuse me of doing to JR? Do you not realize that, in the very act of accusing me, you're engaging in the very same behaviors of which you accuse me?

Seriously, your irrationality is so far off the chart right now that I honestly don't know how to respond to you. I'm really dumbfounded at the moment. I honestly didn't expect you to blindside me the way you just did, and in response to comments I never directed to you. Can I possibly engage others in discussion here without you attacking me for things I never said?
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2011, 04:52:30 AM »

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation. Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP? And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"? Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much. How dare they use such cheap propaganda and disturb decent white people's pleasant supper hour!  


Selam

Gebre, if all Crimson Tide fans are as prone to flying off the handle as you are, I'm rooting for Auburn.


Profound response to my arguments Peter. It's always "flying off the handle," "passive aggressive," and other armchair pseudo-pschological attacks from you. But I'm able to separate one issue from another, and thus I'll still be pulling for your Ducks unless they play the Tide. You see, it ain't ever personal with me. I fight down lies and folly, but I nevertheless love the fools that promote such nonsense.
Gebre, would you do everyone a favor here? Your replies to me show no understanding of anything I just said. Would you please leave this thread alone for a few days and come back after you've calmed down a bit? Maybe then we'll be able to reason together more effectively.


Ahh yes, the same old projection from you Peter. I am and have remained calm throughout this thread. Don't confuse impassioned and reasoned argument for lack of poise. I'm sure it would be very convenient for you if I bowed out of this important discussion, but I shall not do you that favor. Distract and divert all you want, and when you can't address the merits of the issue, then you can always resort to your warnings and moderation. But remember this, you have not persuaded a man simply because you have silenced him.
Do you honestly think I'm trying to silence you? So much so that you would even insinuate that I would abuse my moderatorial authority in ways that, in all the years we've sparred with each other, I've never done toward you?

Do you not realize that you're now doing to me the very things you accuse me of doing to JR? Do you not realize that, in the very act of accusing me, you're engaging in the very same behaviors of which you accuse me?

Seriously, your irrationality is so far off the chart right now that I honestly don't know how to respond to you. I'm really dumbfounded at the moment. I honestly didn't expect you to blindside me the way you just did, and in response to comments I never directed to you. Can I possibly engage others in discussion here without you attacking me for things I never said?



While your response is completely irrational, I do applaud you for refraining from doing what I expected you to do. Cudos.

Of course, as many times as you've accused me of playing the martyr, you sure seem to be palying that role very well here.

(You see Peter, I can play these games all day long. I don't think it's nearly as productive as actually dealing with the issues, but I'll fight fire with fire as long as you want me too. As ridiculous as your comments sometimes are, at least you still barely warrant a response.)


Selam



« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 04:53:27 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2011, 08:17:33 AM »

I have helped to save 3 babies from abortions using tactics like this by showing fellow Catholics in person.

The other post I made about the holocaust video shows people perspectives in how they view abortion, if you had watched all the way through, you would have known this! it is a valuable tool to use.

There was another Catholic, a close friend that had an abortion, she had the abortion anyway, but after the abortion she was so incensed with guilt of what she had done it was tearing me apart to watch her.

Same goes for the father, Have you ever spoken to a man whose partner has had an abortion? It kills him also to know what his partner has done. it breaks up families with the guilt.

Abortion is everything that is despicable to GOD !!!

I do my part, not only on forums, but out there in the real world!

To those of you who gave me words of encouragement, I am truly grateful to you !

To those of you that has personally attacked me, I forgive you as you do not know what it is you do! I hold no grudges...


“But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!” (Matthew 5:44, NLT)

The following words are so APT...!

Sometimes I
I just want to close my eyes
And act like everyone's alright
When I know they're not

This world needs God
But it's easier to stand and watch
I could say a prayer and just move on
Like nothing's wrong

But I refuse
'Cause I don't want to live like I don't care
I don't want to say another empty prayer

To sit around and wait for someone else
To do what God has called me to do myself
I could choose Not to move, but I refuse

I can hear the least of these
Crying out so desperately
And I know we are the hands and feet
Of You, oh God

So, if You say move
It's time for me to follow through
And do what I was made to do
Show them who You are
'Cause I don't want to live like I don't care
I don't want to say another empty prayer
I refuse

To stand and watch the weary and lost
Cry out for help
I refuse to turn my back
And try and act like all is well

I refuse to stay unchanged
To wait another day, to die to myself
I refuse to make one more excuse!


Taken from Josh Wilson - I Refuse.
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2011, 10:11:04 AM »

Anyone else object to the fetishization of the unjust killing of babies?

Yes, they are innocent. But if I recall Christ's teachings, it the violation of innocence which is the great crime against the innocent. Scandalizing the little ones...

I suggest it is a greater crime to cause a young person, by one's own perversion of soul, to fall into sin, then to end that innocent life.


Well that is how we got all the good Catholic and Orthodox bishops sitting on their thumbs during R v. W isn't it?  Just ask the right question and poof!!...50 some odd million lives dead.

I think we should all have to look at them in their dying.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2011, 10:14:06 AM »


While your response is completely irrational, I do applaud you for refraining from doing what I expected you to do. Cudos.

Of course, as many times as you've accused me of playing the martyr, you sure seem to be palying that role very well here.

(You see Peter, I can play these games all day long. I don't think it's nearly as productive as actually dealing with the issues, but I'll fight fire with fire as long as you want me too. As ridiculous as your comments sometimes are, at least you still barely warrant a response.)


Selam



Where does this antipathy toward you come from?  I just don't understand it at all.  And none of the others will answer me so I will ask you...What is going on here?

M.
Logged

PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #91 on: October 02, 2011, 10:52:29 AM »


While your response is completely irrational, I do applaud you for refraining from doing what I expected you to do. Cudos.

Of course, as many times as you've accused me of playing the martyr, you sure seem to be palying that role very well here.

(You see Peter, I can play these games all day long. I don't think it's nearly as productive as actually dealing with the issues, but I'll fight fire with fire as long as you want me too. As ridiculous as your comments sometimes are, at least you still barely warrant a response.)


Selam



Where does this antipathy toward you come from?  I just don't understand it at all.  And none of the others will answer me so I will ask you...What is going on here?

M.
Are you sure you really want to know? Enough to see this thread derailed? This thread is about JR's OP, not about Gebre's perception that I'm persecuting him. If you really want to know, I suggest you start a new thread for your question.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 11:00:35 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #92 on: October 02, 2011, 10:57:48 AM »

I have helped to save 3 babies from abortions using tactics like this by showing fellow Catholics in person.

The other post I made about the holocaust video shows people perspectives in how they view abortion, if you had watched all the way through, you would have known this! it is a valuable tool to use.

There was another Catholic, a close friend that had an abortion, she had the abortion anyway, but after the abortion she was so incensed with guilt of what she had done it was tearing me apart to watch her.

Same goes for the father, Have you ever spoken to a man whose partner has had an abortion? It kills him also to know what his partner has done. it breaks up families with the guilt.

Abortion is everything that is despicable to GOD !!!

I do my part, not only on forums, but out there in the real world!

To those of you who gave me words of encouragement, I am truly grateful to you !

To those of you that has personally attacked me, I forgive you as you do not know what it is you do! I hold no grudges...
But why do you think it's necessary that your message be presented in the graphic way you present it on a forum where most agree that abortion is murder?
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #93 on: October 02, 2011, 11:05:27 AM »


While your response is completely irrational, I do applaud you for refraining from doing what I expected you to do. Cudos.

Of course, as many times as you've accused me of playing the martyr, you sure seem to be palying that role very well here.

(You see Peter, I can play these games all day long. I don't think it's nearly as productive as actually dealing with the issues, but I'll fight fire with fire as long as you want me too. As ridiculous as your comments sometimes are, at least you still barely warrant a response.)


Selam



Where does this antipathy toward you come from?  I just don't understand it at all.  And none of the others will answer me so I will ask you...What is going on here?

M.
Are you sure you really want to know? Enough to see this thread derailed? This thread is about JR's OP, not about Gebre's perception that I'm persecuting him. If you really want to know, I suggest you start a new thread for your question.

I am fond of both Orthonorm and Gebre.  I'd like to see the antipathy end.  That's what I am really interested in with my persistent question.

M.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #94 on: October 02, 2011, 11:08:16 AM »


But why do you think it's necessary that your message be presented in the graphic way you present it on a forum where most agree that abortion is murder?

Why should those who agree that abortion is murder should be spared the images of all those innocents?

We look at images of saints.  Is it because they are sanitized images that we venerate them? 

We look at the image of the Crucified Christ.  Could we not look upon the reality?

I don't understand this attack on the image of abortion?
Logged

JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #95 on: October 02, 2011, 11:13:56 AM »

I have helped to save 3 babies from abortions using tactics like this by showing fellow Catholics in person.

The other post I made about the holocaust video shows people perspectives in how they view abortion, if you had watched all the way through, you would have known this! it is a valuable tool to use.

There was another Catholic, a close friend that had an abortion, she had the abortion anyway, but after the abortion she was so incensed with guilt of what she had done it was tearing me apart to watch her.

Same goes for the father, Have you ever spoken to a man whose partner has had an abortion? It kills him also to know what his partner has done. it breaks up families with the guilt.

Abortion is everything that is despicable to GOD !!!

I do my part, not only on forums, but out there in the real world!

To those of you who gave me words of encouragement, I am truly grateful to you !

To those of you that has personally attacked me, I forgive you as you do not know what it is you do! I hold no grudges...
But why do you think it's necessary that your message be presented in the graphic way you present it on a forum where most agree that abortion is murder?

Because not everybody here does believe that abortion is murder, not everybody reading these posts is Christian.

At the same time I would hope that it would prick / motivate other peoples conscience into not just agreeing, but acting on this barbaric atrocity that is happening in our society.

I am sure you agree that it is one thing to sit around talking about, and quite another to do something about it.

Not everybody can be open to discussion and reason, some people need this kind of thing to have there eyes and hearts opened. everybody is different, we all react differently.

Peace in christ
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,328


« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2011, 11:25:00 AM »

Without commenting on this thread in particular, I feel compelled to say -- what is wrong with an appeal to emotion?

"Two times two is four" is not life, gentlemen. Sometimes our heads obscure the law which is written by the Divine Hand on our twisted and blackened hearts.

It's not about emotion vs. reason, it's about making a sound judgment. The heart and head need to be involved in both. Making perfectly logical arguments which don't hold up in real life shouldn't be accepted. Neither should making emotional arguments which don't actually promote or accomplish that which is advertised. Also, most people tend to be led astray easier by emotion not-tempered-by-reason.
Logged

.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2011, 11:28:53 AM »

Without commenting on this thread in particular, I feel compelled to say -- what is wrong with an appeal to emotion?

"Two times two is four" is not life, gentlemen. Sometimes our heads obscure the law which is written by the Divine Hand on our twisted and blackened hearts.

It's not about emotion vs. reason, it's about making a sound judgment. The heart and head need to be involved in both. Making perfectly logical arguments which don't hold up in real life shouldn't be accepted. Neither should making emotional arguments which don't actually promote or accomplish that which is advertised. Also, most people tend to be led astray easier by emotion not-tempered-by-reason.

This is false in that love is the deepest emotional response we can hope for in the spiritual life.

The goal is not to cease all emotional response.  The goal is to direct emotional good toward the light of divine good.  That does not then divine the emotional realm from reason.

At least that is how I "read" the holy fathers.

So just because "most people" react badly...?...

Do we cater to that?
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,328


« Reply #98 on: October 02, 2011, 01:27:13 PM »

This is false in that love is the deepest emotional response we can hope for in the spiritual life.

The goal is not to cease all emotional response.  The goal is to direct emotional good toward the light of divine good.  That does not then divine the emotional realm from reason.

At least that is how I "read" the holy fathers.

So just because "most people" react badly...?...

Do we cater to that?

This may help explain what I meant:

It's not about emotion vs. reason, it's about making a sound judgment. The heart and head need to be involved in both. Making perfectly logical arguments which don't hold up in real life shouldn't be accepted. Neither should making emotional arguments which don't actually promote or accomplish that which is advertised. Also, most people tend to be led astray easier by emotion not-tempered-by-reason.
Logged

.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2011, 04:06:14 PM »

Without commenting on this thread in particular, I feel compelled to say -- what is wrong with an appeal to emotion?

"Two times two is four" is not life, gentlemen. Sometimes our heads obscure the law which is written by the Divine Hand on our twisted and blackened hearts.

It's not about emotion vs. reason, it's about making a sound judgment. The heart and head need to be involved in both. Making perfectly logical arguments which don't hold up in real life shouldn't be accepted. Neither should making emotional arguments which don't actually promote or accomplish that which is advertised. Also, most people tend to be led astray easier by emotion not-tempered-by-reason.

This is false in that love is the deepest emotional response we can hope for in the spiritual life.
True love is not an emotional response.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #100 on: October 02, 2011, 04:33:31 PM »

Now some points to address the actual substance of this post:

I have to admit, as someone that has miscarried I find the photo in the OP incredibly offensive and traumatizing. You may not realize it, but when a woman miscarries a baby that is fairly well developed when it passes it LOOKS like a baby. Showing photos for a visceral reaction cheapens the gravity of the subject. I don't have to show photos of the bodies resulting from genocide to bolster the case against it. That is a PERSON in the original photo. A human being worthy of dignity, value and respect. Showing their corpse to make a case is incredibly disrespectful to the life of that person. I don't post photos of my cousin that died of skin cancer to make a case for skin cancer screening. A photo of him in his last days would give ANYONE a visceral reaction, but it won't make anyone start promoting skin cancer research/screening/treatment.
What I find most ironic is that in posting a picture of an aborted baby in order to "awaken" others to the horrors of abortion, the person who posted the picture has done exactly that which he accuses the "pro-deathers" of doing. He has objectified a human life and made it nothing more than the means to an end. Where is the humanity in that photo? If that aborted baby is a dead human being, why do we tolerate that person's desecration by using him as nothing more than a piece of propaganda?


I call BS on your puerile rhetorical "response". For someone who is so quick to judge others and criticize their rhetoric, I find it very hypocritical of you to make such an unfounded accusation.
Are you familiar with the notion of unintended consequences?

Who are you to judge the heart and motives of the person who posted the OP?
I did not accuse JR of anything, nor did I render any judgment of his motives. I recognize that he means well, but good intentions don't always guarantee good results. Despite his attempts to enlighten us to the tragedy of abortion, the way he did so ended up accomplishing a negative consequence he didn't intend, and that is the exploitation of the dead.

And BTW, what's wrong with eliciting a "gut reaction"?
I never said there's anything wrong with this.

Emotion is often more persuasive that logic; and when an emotional response is elicited by a revelation of factual truth, then positive change is often the result.
You don't think I know this? However, emotion without logic is even less persuasive and more unsound than logic without emotion.

Study the tactics and strategy of the Civil Rights movement sometime. But assessing the response to the OP by you and a few others, I surmise that you would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence that was inflicted upon them. After all, if they wouldn't have showed pictures of lynchings and infuenced the media to show the cruelty of fire hoses and vicious dogs used against them, then they might not have suffered as much.
I never said anything blaming the violence of abortion on those who use JR's method of posting graphic pictures on an Internet board, so your intimation that I would have blamed the Civil Rights protesters for the violence inflicted upon them simply does not follow. I also find it most hypocritical that someone like you who is so quick to accuse me (falsely) of judging someone else's motives would in the same post judge my motives as nefarious by surmising such a wild a** guess about me.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 04:41:16 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,155


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #101 on: October 02, 2011, 04:38:04 PM »


We look at the image of the Crucified Christ.  Could we not look upon the reality?

All the Orthodox depictions of the crucifixions resemble this:

moreso than this:

The latter may resemble the physical reality better in some senses, but I think it's healthier to focus on the spiritual realities of crucifixion and abortion rather than what a bloody mess they can be.
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2011, 06:17:23 PM »

The assumption that a human life is a human life is a human life doesnt hold up well.

How about very old age?

God forbid, but if you ever have to decide what to do with someone incapacitated in a nursing home you can quickly see your equal sign fade.

  How about a 92 year old who has lost all awareness, screams every few minutes and is starting to curl up in a fetal position? The Nursing home will want you to put in a feeding tube.  That will extend life a couple of years. The home stands to make at least $150,000 over two years.

 Don't put it in and the end will come in a few weeks. A life is a life right? Two more years is a long time. So jam in that feeding tube and get yourself another two years of not knowing who you are or where you are and let them feed you down to a puddle on the sheets because a life is a life is a life.

Very old people are also human beings, shockingly enough. Even those who have lost their minds.

My beloved great-grandmother drove until she was in her 80s. In 2000 or something, she got into a car accident and lost her mind, and my grandparents spent vast amounts of money to care for her until they were nearly broke. She reposed in 2005 a shadow of her former self, shouting at people and soiling herself. But she was still a human and was given the right to live for as long as the Lord allowed her to. I am thankful for my grandparents' witness in this, and I will do the same for my parents someday, because they are human beings regardless.

No infanticide at the beginning of life, and no suicide or mercy killing on the other end of life. From conception to natural death. A human is a human. Period.

Read carefully... No one is talking about suicide. We are talking about what measures are reasonable at the end of life. My point is that if your supposition is "a life, is a life, is a life" than you must turn off your common sense and take all possible measures to prolong a life that by all indicators has reached a natural end. Plus you have big business playing on your guilt since there is so much money involved in keeping grandma alive no matter how awful and degrading her situation is.

 I think a Christian understands that there is an afterlife and should not be so fearful of it that we can be preyed upon by vultures. But, if a life, is a life, is a life..black and white.. then we must send grandma into a living hell... good work.

So I think an embryo or fetus is a human embryo or a human fetus. I am not sure it has full person hood in the same manner as an adult.. I tend to think that it is a unique stage of life all on it's own.  It's living, we beleive it has a soul if you are religious, it has potential, it is not "a baby".

Confusing what is obvious, that an embryo being killed is not exactly the same thing as a mother of five being sent to the gas chamber is a big polemical error. And so accounts for the failure of the Pro-life movement.. Right cause, wrong moral argument dumb analogies.

We recognize different stages of life. The very elderly who are completely incapacitated book ends this concept. Decent reasonable people will let grandma go because they understand the stage she is in. An embryo is at a different stage of life than a mother of five. Mixing these things up causes confusion and rightly so.

Posting a graphic picture of a bloody fetus is idiotic. Shocking people is what 14 year old's do.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 06:18:53 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2011, 06:23:07 PM »

"You have to turn off common sense to favor life."

You've fallen off the deep end.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2011, 06:31:05 PM »

"You have to turn off common sense to favor life."

You've fallen off the deep end.

Then tell you Parents or spouse or someone you love that you are going to take any and all measures to prolong their life, no matter how degraded they become.. Even when good common sense tells everyone else that they should go, you will step in and prolong them no matter what.

You should put that in writing and see if they sign it and dont forget to draw up papers for yourself that you should always be resuscitated......... no matter what.

Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Seraphim Rose
President of Democracy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: [Eastern] Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 76


2000 Years of Ninjas Wailing on Guitar


« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2011, 06:42:03 PM »

The latter may resemble the physical reality better in some senses, but I think it's healthier to focus on the spiritual realities of crucifixion and abortion rather than what a bloody mess they can be.

Agreed. Perhaps too often, the graphic images serve to numb us to the spiritual nature of the problem.
Logged

It ain't who you know. It's what who you know know.
Seraphim Rose
President of Democracy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: [Eastern] Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 76


2000 Years of Ninjas Wailing on Guitar


« Reply #106 on: October 02, 2011, 06:48:24 PM »

I would also add, I think, that the OP has little, if anything, to do with the actual perspective of the aborted. It's like saying that Lassie is from the point of view of a dog.
Logged

It ain't who you know. It's what who you know know.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #107 on: October 02, 2011, 07:13:27 PM »

The assumption that a human life is a human life is a human life doesnt hold up well.

How about very old age?

God forbid, but if you ever have to decide what to do with someone incapacitated in a nursing home you can quickly see your equal sign fade.

  How about a 92 year old who has lost all awareness, screams every few minutes and is starting to curl up in a fetal position? The Nursing home will want you to put in a feeding tube.  That will extend life a couple of years. The home stands to make at least $150,000 over two years.

 Don't put it in and the end will come in a few weeks. A life is a life right? Two more years is a long time. So jam in that feeding tube and get yourself another two years of not knowing who you are or where you are and let them feed you down to a puddle on the sheets because a life is a life is a life.

Very old people are also human beings, shockingly enough. Even those who have lost their minds.

My beloved great-grandmother drove until she was in her 80s. In 2000 or something, she got into a car accident and lost her mind, and my grandparents spent vast amounts of money to care for her until they were nearly broke. She reposed in 2005 a shadow of her former self, shouting at people and soiling herself. But she was still a human and was given the right to live for as long as the Lord allowed her to. I am thankful for my grandparents' witness in this, and I will do the same for my parents someday, because they are human beings regardless.

No infanticide at the beginning of life, and no suicide or mercy killing on the other end of life. From conception to natural death. A human is a human. Period.

Read carefully... No one is talking about suicide. We are talking about what measures are reasonable at the end of life. My point is that if your supposition is "a life, is a life, is a life" than you must turn off your common sense and take all possible measures to prolong a life that by all indicators has reached a natural end. Plus you have big business playing on your guilt since there is so much money involved in keeping grandma alive no matter how awful and degrading her situation is.

 I think a Christian understands that there is an afterlife and should not be so fearful of it that we can be preyed upon by vultures. But, if a life, is a life, is a life..black and white.. then we must send grandma into a living hell... good work.
You do realize that the same Church that calls a human embryo a human life also encourages us to allow a human to die if all attempts at life support become nothing more than maintenance of the bodily functions of a corpse?

What do you mean by "send grandma into a living hell"? What do you mean by "awful and degrading"?
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #108 on: October 02, 2011, 07:38:32 PM »

"You have to turn off common sense to favor life."

You've fallen off the deep end.

Then tell you Parents or spouse or someone you love that you are going to take any and all measures to prolong their life, no matter how degraded they become.. Even when good common sense tells everyone else that they should go, you will step in and prolong them no matter what.

You should put that in writing and see if they sign it and dont forget to draw up papers for yourself that you should always be resuscitated......... no matter what.



Did you become a spokes person for a majority at some point?

BTW, there is a point, as PtA stated, that maintaining a life that is no longer available is not necessarily Christian, either.

Yet, this thread isn't about drawing the line of when someone is dead, is it? It's about drawing the line of when someone is alive. So, this sidetrack of yours is really just an irrelevant strawman.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #109 on: October 02, 2011, 07:39:10 PM »


True love is not an emotional response.

True love is not MERELY an emotional response.

Jesus chose to reanimate Lazarus in the tomb.

Jesus also wept when he saw the suffering of the two sisters.

All truisms have some truth in them but if love is NOT part of our emotions then I have been on the wrong planet all these decades.
Logged

Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #110 on: October 02, 2011, 07:47:43 PM »

So if I were to make a post decrying the horrors of rape, would it be appropriate for me to post pictures of women being raped? Roll Eyes

I think this is in poor taste.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 07:48:04 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #111 on: October 02, 2011, 07:51:10 PM »

So if I were to make a post decrying the horrors of rape, would it be appropriate for me to post pictures of women being raped? Roll Eyes

I think this is in poor taste.

The realities of human suffering are to be reserved for what then?...or are you all into sanitized living?

I've never seen anything like the posts on this thread. 

I guess I don't get out much but you folks have some strange aversions to reality.
Logged

Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #112 on: October 02, 2011, 07:54:44 PM »

So if I were to make a post decrying the horrors of rape, would it be appropriate for me to post pictures of women being raped? Roll Eyes

I think this is in poor taste.

I've never heard of actual pictures, but I have seen/heard the use of stories to induce mental images and personalize sexual crimes to individuals who are either apathetic or unwilling to acknowledge sexual crimes.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #113 on: October 02, 2011, 07:59:13 PM »

The assumption that a human life is a human life is a human life doesnt hold up well.

How about very old age?

God forbid, but if you ever have to decide what to do with someone incapacitated in a nursing home you can quickly see your equal sign fade.

  How about a 92 year old who has lost all awareness, screams every few minutes and is starting to curl up in a fetal position? The Nursing home will want you to put in a feeding tube.  That will extend life a couple of years. The home stands to make at least $150,000 over two years.

 Don't put it in and the end will come in a few weeks. A life is a life right? Two more years is a long time. So jam in that feeding tube and get yourself another two years of not knowing who you are or where you are and let them feed you down to a puddle on the sheets because a life is a life is a life.

Very old people are also human beings, shockingly enough. Even those who have lost their minds.

My beloved great-grandmother drove until she was in her 80s. In 2000 or something, she got into a car accident and lost her mind, and my grandparents spent vast amounts of money to care for her until they were nearly broke. She reposed in 2005 a shadow of her former self, shouting at people and soiling herself. But she was still a human and was given the right to live for as long as the Lord allowed her to. I am thankful for my grandparents' witness in this, and I will do the same for my parents someday, because they are human beings regardless.

No infanticide at the beginning of life, and no suicide or mercy killing on the other end of life. From conception to natural death. A human is a human. Period.

Read carefully... No one is talking about suicide. We are talking about what measures are reasonable at the end of life. My point is that if your supposition is "a life, is a life, is a life" than you must turn off your common sense and take all possible measures to prolong a life that by all indicators has reached a natural end. Plus you have big business playing on your guilt since there is so much money involved in keeping grandma alive no matter how awful and degrading her situation is.

 I think a Christian understands that there is an afterlife and should not be so fearful of it that we can be preyed upon by vultures. But, if a life, is a life, is a life..black and white.. then we must send grandma into a living hell... good work.
You do realize that the same Church that calls a human embryo a human life also encourages us to allow a human to die if all attempts at life support become nothing more than maintenance of the bodily functions of a corpse?

What do you mean by "send grandma into a living hell"? What do you mean by "awful and degrading"?

You make my point. The basic assumption of "A Life , is a Life is a Life, promoted right here on this thread, isnt really in accord with Holy Tradition.

Critical end of life issues can be very degrading. They of course can come in several ways.

Let me describe my Mother in Law who was in that sort of situation.

She had lost all cognitive ability. She had little to no awareness or ability to communicate. She could respond to stimuli like a pinch on her foot but she could not move enough to change position. She therefore developed terrible bed sores. She had no bowl or bladder control. Her hands had started to atrophy, curling up into a ball. She had begun to go into a permanent fetal position.

She screamed every few minutes. Not a deliberate vocalization but an automatic sort of yelp or high pitched moan. Every few minutes, 24/7 by in large.

She had a feeding tube and was given oxygen. The feeding tube extended her life for an additional 18 months or so. The nursing home cost was $7,000 plus per month.  

They had persuaded my wife to allow the feeding tube when she began to decline. She was "Aspirating" her food, inhaling and choking on it.  They said she was not able to get proper nutrition by mouth so they needed to pump the food directly into her stomach. They said they would still feed her soft food for "pleasure".

They knew what the future would be for her. We really didnt. They needed to get the tube into her so they could warehouse her for another year and a half. Welcome to modern medicine $$$.

That is what I mean by an awful  and degrading state.

 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 07:59:49 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #114 on: October 02, 2011, 08:00:00 PM »

So if I were to make a post decrying the horrors of rape, would it be appropriate for me to post pictures of women being raped? Roll Eyes

I think this is in poor taste.

The realities of human suffering are to be reserved for what then?...or are you all into sanitized living?

I've never seen anything like the posts on this thread. 

I guess I don't get out much but you folks have some strange aversions to reality.
I tend to think that human beings should be treated with more dignity than to be exploited for people's pet causes. If we had real respect for aborted fetuses, we would not be posting pictures of them online.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #115 on: October 02, 2011, 08:11:57 PM »

So if I were to make a post decrying the horrors of rape, would it be appropriate for me to post pictures of women being raped? Roll Eyes

I think this is in poor taste.

The realities of human suffering are to be reserved for what then?...or are you all into sanitized living?

I've never seen anything like the posts on this thread. 

I guess I don't get out much but you folks have some strange aversions to reality.
I tend to think that human beings should be treated with more dignity than to be exploited for people's pet causes. If we had real respect for aborted fetuses, we would not be posting pictures of them online.

A pet cause...hmm
Logged

Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #116 on: October 02, 2011, 08:23:03 PM »

"You have to turn off common sense to favor life."

You've fallen off the deep end.

Then tell you Parents or spouse or someone you love that you are going to take any and all measures to prolong their life, no matter how degraded they become.. Even when good common sense tells everyone else that they should go, you will step in and prolong them no matter what.

You should put that in writing and see if they sign it and dont forget to draw up papers for yourself that you should always be resuscitated......... no matter what.



Did you become a spokes person for a majority at some point?

BTW, there is a point, as PtA stated, that maintaining a life that is no longer available is not necessarily Christian, either.

Yet, this thread isn't about drawing the line of when someone is dead, is it? It's about drawing the line of when someone is alive. So, this sidetrack of yours is really just an irrelevant strawman.

My point is to show the basic assumption that "A Life, is a life, is a life" is fraudulent. I'm sorry that you didn't understand  what I was trying to say.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #117 on: October 02, 2011, 08:26:45 PM »

So if I were to make a post decrying the horrors of rape, would it be appropriate for me to post pictures of women being raped? Roll Eyes

I think this is in poor taste.

The realities of human suffering are to be reserved for what then?...or are you all into sanitized living?

I've never seen anything like the posts on this thread. 

I guess I don't get out much but you folks have some strange aversions to reality.
I tend to think that human beings should be treated with more dignity than to be exploited for people's pet causes. If we had real respect for aborted fetuses, we would not be posting pictures of them online.
The end of abortion-on-demand a pet cause? Shouldn't we rather see it as one of the most important tasks we Christians face today? That said, I still agree with you that this end does not justify posting pictures of aborted babies online.
Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #118 on: October 02, 2011, 09:08:02 PM »

Plus you have big business playing on your guilt since there is so much money involved in keeping grandma alive no matter how awful and degrading her situation is.

 I think a Christian understands that there is an afterlife and should not be so fearful of it that we can be preyed upon by vultures. But, if a life, is a life, is a life..black and white.. then we must send grandma into a living hell... good work.

Living is never hell, and grandma's life is never degrading. Only if a person's humanity and value is equal to their contributions. Sorry, I don't live in the world of Soylent Green. A human life has innate value that is not diminished at any point.

So I think an embryo or fetus is a human embryo or a human fetus. I am not sure it has full person hood in the same manner as an adult.. I tend to think that it is a unique stage of life all on it's own.  It's living, we beleive it has a soul if you are religious, it has potential, it is not "a baby".

I am sure, in light of the Incarnation.

Confusing what is obvious, that an embryo being killed is not exactly the same thing as a mother of five being sent to the gas chamber is a big polemical error. And so accounts for the failure of the Pro-life movement.. Right cause, wrong moral argument dumb analogies.

Would you care to refute anything I said regarding the value of human life in light of the Incarnation? Until you can successfully do so, I will not accept your assertions that some human lives are more human than others.

We recognize different stages of life. The very elderly who are completely incapacitated book ends this concept. Decent reasonable people will let grandma go because they understand the stage she is in. An embryo is at a different stage of life than a mother of five. Mixing these things up causes confusion and rightly so.

Lots of things get confused when people reject the truth. And the truth is that grandma and fetus are both human persons. If you can refute that, please try, but all I see are assertions that are based on their cognitive ability, which is not how personhood is measured.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 09:19:28 PM by bogdan » Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #119 on: October 02, 2011, 09:13:48 PM »

You make my point. The basic assumption of "A Life , is a Life is a Life, promoted right here on this thread, isnt really in accord with Holy Tradition.

Show us where Holy Tradition says it is okay to let someone die because their life no longer has value and is degrading. What is more degrading than death, the unnatural separation of a united body-soul creature?

Turning death into this beautiful release does not seem in accord with Holy Tradition. Not even the holy desert fathers viewed their own holy deaths this way. Many pleaded with the angels for more time. Yet we deny this to the weak—babies and the elderly alike—for the sake of our own convenience or a twisted view of dignity.

I don't buy it.

How do you know grandma is not still working out her salvation, just because you look into her eyes and the human spark seems to be gone? I know what that looks like, and it's horrible. But I would not deny her the chance, any more than I would deny it to a mass-murderer who the law says should be executed. No. A life is a life is a life.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 09:24:22 PM by bogdan » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #120 on: October 02, 2011, 09:27:36 PM »


While your response is completely irrational, I do applaud you for refraining from doing what I expected you to do. Cudos.

Of course, as many times as you've accused me of playing the martyr, you sure seem to be palying that role very well here.

(You see Peter, I can play these games all day long. I don't think it's nearly as productive as actually dealing with the issues, but I'll fight fire with fire as long as you want me too. As ridiculous as your comments sometimes are, at least you still barely warrant a response.)


Selam



Where does this antipathy toward you come from?  I just don't understand it at all.  And none of the others will answer me so I will ask you...What is going on here?

M.
Are you sure you really want to know? Enough to see this thread derailed? This thread is about JR's OP, not about Gebre's perception that I'm persecuting him. If you really want to know, I suggest you start a new thread for your question.

I am fond of both Orthonorm and Gebre.  I'd like to see the antipathy end.  That's what I am really interested in with my persistent question.

M.


Please know that the antipathy is not reciprocal. I have no personal grudge against Orthonorm or anyone else on this forum. I realize that my uncompromising views on abortion and other issues will offend and upset some people. It is sad that some people make it so personal.

Pray for me, a sinner.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #121 on: October 02, 2011, 09:29:17 PM »

You make my point. The basic assumption of "A Life , is a Life is a Life, promoted right here on this thread, isnt really in accord with Holy Tradition.

Show us where Holy Tradition says it is okay to let someone die because their life no longer has value and is degrading. What is more degrading than death, the unnatural separation of a united body-soul creature?

Turning death into this beautiful release does not seem in accord with Holy Tradition. Not even the holy desert fathers viewed their own holy deaths this way. Many pleaded with the angels for more time. Yet we deny this to the weak—babies and the elderly alike—for the sake of our own convenience or a twisted view of dignity.

I don't buy it.

How do you know grandma is not still working out her salvation, just because you look into her eyes and the human spark seems to be gone? I know what that looks like, and it's horrible. But I would not deny her the chance, any more than I would deny it to a mass-murderer who the law says should be executed. No. A life is a life is a life.


Well said Bogdan.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #122 on: October 02, 2011, 09:31:48 PM »

I would also add, I think, that the OP has little, if anything, to do with the actual perspective of the aborted. It's like saying that Lassie is from the point of view of a dog.


How do you know?


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #123 on: October 02, 2011, 10:09:50 PM »

Plus you have big business playing on your guilt since there is so much money involved in keeping grandma alive no matter how awful and degrading her situation is.

 I think a Christian understands that there is an afterlife and should not be so fearful of it that we can be preyed upon by vultures. But, if a life, is a life, is a life..black and white.. then we must send grandma into a living hell... good work.

Living is never hell, and grandma's life is never degrading. Only if a person's humanity and value is equal to their contributions. Sorry, I don't live in the world of Soylent Green. A human life has innate value that is not diminished at any point.

So I think an embryo or fetus is a human embryo or a human fetus. I am not sure it has full person hood in the same manner as an adult.. I tend to think that it is a unique stage of life all on it's own.  It's living, we beleive it has a soul if you are religious, it has potential, it is not "a baby".

I am sure, in light of the Incarnation.

Confusing what is obvious, that an embryo being killed is not exactly the same thing as a mother of five being sent to the gas chamber is a big polemical error. And so accounts for the failure of the Pro-life movement.. Right cause, wrong moral argument dumb analogies.

Would you care to refute anything I said regarding the value of human life in light of the Incarnation? Until you can successfully do so, I will not accept your assertions that some human lives are more human than others.

We recognize different stages of life. The very elderly who are completely incapacitated book ends this concept. Decent reasonable people will let grandma go because they understand the stage she is in. An embryo is at a different stage of life than a mother of five. Mixing these things up causes confusion and rightly so.

Lots of things get confused when people reject the truth. And the truth is that grandma and fetus are both human persons. If you can refute that, please try, but all I see are assertions that are based on their cognitive ability, which is not how personhood is measured.

I think there is a natural end to life. Extending it well beyond reason is often done for profit..Warehousing people and keeping them alive with tubes and gadgets is lot's closer to a Soylent Green horror future than anything else IMHO.

 I dont think a fertilized egg is a person in the exact same way as a mother of five. Your mileage may vary.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #124 on: October 02, 2011, 10:14:15 PM »


While your response is completely irrational, I do applaud you for refraining from doing what I expected you to do. Cudos.

Of course, as many times as you've accused me of playing the martyr, you sure seem to be palying that role very well here.

(You see Peter, I can play these games all day long. I don't think it's nearly as productive as actually dealing with the issues, but I'll fight fire with fire as long as you want me too. As ridiculous as your comments sometimes are, at least you still barely warrant a response.)


Selam



Where does this antipathy toward you come from?  I just don't understand it at all.  And none of the others will answer me so I will ask you...What is going on here?

M.
Are you sure you really want to know? Enough to see this thread derailed? This thread is about JR's OP, not about Gebre's perception that I'm persecuting him. If you really want to know, I suggest you start a new thread for your question.

I am fond of both Orthonorm and Gebre.  I'd like to see the antipathy end.  That's what I am really interested in with my persistent question.

M.


Please know that the antipathy is not reciprocal. I have no personal grudge against Orthonorm or anyone else on this forum. I realize that my uncompromising views on abortion and other issues will offend and upset some people.
Gebre, have you ever considered that your naysayers may be right: that it's your crusader-martyr complex, your uncompromising defense of your self-righteousness, your quickness to make ridiculous judgments of the motives of your critics, and your passive-aggressive debate tactics that offend and upset so many people here? I can't speak for orthonorm, minasoliman, or HandmaidenofGod, but I can actually say I agree with your point of view on most of the issues you deem important, especially on abortion.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 10:34:58 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,076


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #125 on: October 02, 2011, 10:47:05 PM »


True love is not an emotional response.

True love is not MERELY an emotional response.

Jesus chose to reanimate Lazarus in the tomb.

Jesus also wept when he saw the suffering of the two sisters.

All truisms have some truth in them but if love is NOT part of our emotions then I have been on the wrong planet all these decades.

True love is of the will. Infatuations (emotional responses thought to be love) do not endure.

Faith and hope will cease when we behold God in the Kingdom, then only love will last for all eternity.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 10:47:49 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
mersch
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: converting to orthodoxy, seems to be on hold
Posts: 248



« Reply #126 on: October 02, 2011, 11:35:00 PM »

Ok, stepping in here, I will say upfront, I am pro-life from conception till death, no if's, and's, or but's.  I recently had a 2nd job that turned into my full time job, and my full time job turned into my 2nd job. The family was the problem, in my opinion.  I had a private duty job for a person who had a living will, and both daughters were DPA's. In my clients living will it was stated that no artificial means should keep her alive-period. At the age of 95- 6 weeks short of turning 96, she contracted pneumonia, docs wanted to place her on a vent to treat the symptoms only for 24-48 hours only, not keep her alive, which was no way in conflict with her desires. The 2 daughters fought over this. Long story short, she was placed on a vent for 24 hours to give her body a break while antibiotics did their thing, then was removed-remember- it was to treat symptoms of an infection only, not life support, but one daughter thought it was life support, the other sided with the docs.  Both daughters asked me several times my opinion on the matter, I refused to state my opinion at first, but later I did Which was  - it was ONLY done to treat symptoms, NOT to prolong her life, had no problem with her being on a vent for 24-48 hours to treat her symptoms while the antibiotics did their work.   She latter did pass, 2 months later,  alert, with it mentally,more physically and mentally  active that she had been for months, and ok with it-but not due to the pneumonia, due to the natural progression of life that we all will go through. May I have enough grace to know for myself when that time comes, and not let  my family get in uproar over it. i have no fear of meeting my God, she was an inspiration to me.  With what I do for a living, man, can be tough, my thoughts, opinions are not always what the patient wants, and that can be very tough.  As for Abortion, tis always the wrong alternative, and the mothers who chose this, later they go through so much, its so heat wrenching to listen to some, and not judge.  Having to deal with this now in my own family, my daughter in law(was girlfriend then) and son are so inconsolable regarding the decision to abort their child, my grandchild, a year ago, on 9/11 to boot.  Do I understand them considering abortion- heck yes, I was pregnant with my oldest at 17, and did seriously consider abortion, cause I was scared, didn't know what to do, shame I thought would bring on my parents, and other reasons, along with just being plain old scared and the american attitude............, maybe he would of been better off being adopted,I don't know,  that was 32 years ago, his name is Chad, former Marine, and is the one who gives me grief constantly, and the most joy, LOL,and whom I  love dearly. Just my 1/2 cent on the matter, would say 2 cents, but......thats another topic, lol,
Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #127 on: October 03, 2011, 09:38:16 AM »

I do acknowledge end-of-life issues are more complicated, and perhaps that would be better as its own thread. For the purposes of this thread, I would still like to discuss the abortion aspect.

I dont think a fertilized egg is a person in the exact same way as a mother of five. Your mileage may vary.

You keep saying this, but on what grounds? Was Christ fully Man on March 25 as He was on December 25, or was He not?
Logged
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #128 on: October 03, 2011, 09:57:41 AM »

both subjects are covered in this post.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,40003.msg647553.html#msg647553
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 10:00:51 AM by JR » Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,155


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #129 on: October 03, 2011, 11:03:23 AM »

I would also add, I think, that the OP has little, if anything, to do with the actual perspective of the aborted. It's like saying that Lassie is from the point of view of a dog.


How do you know?


Selam
Because fetuses lack both the sensory input and cognitive ability to express statements like the one in the OP, or indeed to express anything at all?
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #130 on: October 03, 2011, 11:12:48 AM »

I do acknowledge end-of-life issues are more complicated, and perhaps that would be better as its own thread. For the purposes of this thread, I would still like to discuss the abortion aspect.

I dont think a fertilized egg is a person in the exact same way as a mother of five. Your mileage may vary.

You keep saying this, but on what grounds? Was Christ fully Man on March 25 as He was on December 25, or was He not?

Yes!! Yes...this is what I never understand when Christians argue for those days/weeks when they claim the nothingness of a tissue blob.

I think we should cancel the feast of the Annunciation now that science has "proven" that it is bunko in reality...

This reality Christians can handle...but to look at a dead baby...ewwwww

Do I need to tell you which position makes me more ill?

Logged

JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #131 on: October 03, 2011, 11:18:24 AM »

I do acknowledge end-of-life issues are more complicated, and perhaps that would be better as its own thread. For the purposes of this thread, I would still like to discuss the abortion aspect.

I dont think a fertilized egg is a person in the exact same way as a mother of five. Your mileage may vary.

You keep saying this, but on what grounds? Was Christ fully Man on March 25 as He was on December 25, or was He not?

Yes!! Yes...this is what I never understand when Christians argue for those days/weeks when they claim the nothingness of a tissue blob.

I think we should cancel the feast of the Annunciation now that science has "proven" that it is bunko in reality...

This reality Christians can handle...but to look at a dead baby...ewwwww

Do I need to tell you which position makes me more ill?



Don't they call it watered down Christianity? lets make everything pretty and forget about reality !
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #132 on: October 03, 2011, 12:06:24 PM »

From my experience participating in other forums, I know that one of the main things people who are pro-choice mock us pro-lifers about is our ridiculous and inaccurate pictures of dead fetuses which we claim represent the horrors of abortion. Is the dead fetus in the OP actually an aborted one? If not, it should not be used in an attempt to "prove" the horror of abortion because that really hurts the credibility of the pro-life movement as a whole and gives the other side more ammo against us.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #133 on: October 03, 2011, 12:12:02 PM »

From my experience participating in other forums, I know that one of the main things people who are pro-choice mock us pro-lifers about is our ridiculous and inaccurate pictures of dead fetuses which we claim represent the horrors of abortion. Is the dead fetus in the OP actually an aborted one? If not, it should not be used in an attempt to "prove" the horror of abortion because that really hurts the credibility of the pro-life movement as a whole and gives the other side more ammo against us.
Good point. Smiley
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #134 on: October 03, 2011, 12:19:30 PM »

From my experience participating in other forums, I know that one of the main things people who are pro-choice mock us pro-lifers about is our ridiculous and inaccurate pictures of dead fetuses which we claim represent the horrors of abortion. Is the dead fetus in the OP actually an aborted one? If not, it should not be used in an attempt to "prove" the horror of abortion because that really hurts the credibility of the pro-life movement as a whole and gives the other side more ammo against us.

I don't know if anyone knows about that particular photo.  It may well not be since babies that large, when aborted, often are dismembered in the womb.  Or it could be the result of a saline abortion.  There are many images on the Internet of late term abortion and saline abortions, whose authenticity would be difficult to call into question.  I just don't know if this one numbers among them.  I do know if instances where those particular images have stopped people from having abortions or insisting that a dependent has an abortion.

I am all in favor of having to look at the bodies that we kill and maim.   We need to know the fullness of what it is that we do, either by our actions or by doing nothing or running away.
Logged

Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #135 on: October 03, 2011, 03:23:15 PM »

I do acknowledge end-of-life issues are more complicated, and perhaps that would be better as its own thread. For the purposes of this thread, I would still like to discuss the abortion aspect.

I dont think a fertilized egg is a person in the exact same way as a mother of five. Your mileage may vary.

You keep saying this, but on what grounds? Was Christ fully Man on March 25 as He was on December 25, or was He not?

Both are a point of faith. It is a religious tenet that at the moment of conception a "Soul" enters. Prove it. Of course you cant. It's an article of faith.

I think it's a very hard sell to call a Zygote a "Baby" and then from there call a Woman a murderer and then from there say Abortion is the same thing as the European Holocaust. It sounds irrational.

Many people dont believe there is such a thing as a soul. Many others totally misunderstand what a soul is or it's nature and even fewer have a Catholic or Orthodox understanding.

People are smart enough to see that a recently divided cell is not the same type of Person as your Grandma. She can bake a fine apple pie. A zygote cant.

These sorts of extreme characterizations, outlandish comparisons and ghastly pictures is what is bothering me. You are asking people to adopt certain key elements of your argument based purely on your own personal religious faith. I suggest making the argument against Abortion on different terms and on more solid ground. Otherwise, you will continue to see abortions continue at a high rate.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #136 on: October 03, 2011, 04:15:19 PM »

Both are a point of faith. It is a religious tenet that at the moment of conception a "Soul" enters. Prove it. Of course you cant. It's an article of faith.

You can say the same thing about the Resurrection, for goodness' sake. You can dismiss the Resurrection as an article of faith, but if that's all it is, then our faith is worthless. That is not a valid argument.

It either is, or it is not.

I think it's a very hard sell to call a Zygote a "Baby" and then from there call a Woman a murderer and then from there say Abortion is the same thing as the European Holocaust. It sounds irrational.

The bit about the mother is a red herring which I will address below, for I have said nothing about what the mother is or is not. So bear with me.

Whereas, full human dignity and personhood exists in a fetus (says the Church), and
Whereas, 53+ million human persons have been killed as a result of abortion, and
Whereas, a "holocaust" is (among other things) a legal killing of many people,

Therefore, the unrighteous slaughter of innocents can rightly be called a "holocaust."

Three points and a conclusion. That is not irrationality.

Now, to the red herring: The Church says she is a murderer (as per the canons). Now, we do not run her out of society or persecute her for it, because no woman gets an abortion because she is a bloodthirsty maniac. But let's not mince words and obfuscate the fact of the matter. The Church offers healing for her, but that does not change the reality of the situation. That is lacking discernment.

Many people dont believe there is such a thing as a soul. Many others totally misunderstand what a soul is or it's nature and even fewer have a Catholic or Orthodox understanding.

So? Truth and reality are not subject to popular referendum.

People are smart enough to see that a recently divided cell is not the same type of Person as your Grandma. She can bake a fine apple pie. A zygote cant.

Humanity is not defined by the person's value or contributions to society. It is defined by bearing the image of God, and an embryo bears the image of God because Christ once was an embryo.

These sorts of extreme characterizations, outlandish comparisons and ghastly pictures is what is bothering me. You are asking people to adopt certain key elements of your argument based purely on your own personal religious faith. I suggest making the argument against Abortion on different terms and on more solid ground. Otherwise, you will continue to see abortions continue at a high rate.

Then it's already lost. If people are free to define for themselves what humanity is, then why not kill an infant after birth? The Australian bioethicist Peter Singer says, "killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living."

So why not abort a 3-month-old infant when the parents find it too difficult to care for it?

Or a two-year-old? They are not really self-aware, not in the way adults are. Kill 'em if they're inconvenient.

There are already people who support those views. Not many, but at one time most people did not support sucking babies' brains out, either.

John Adams was right. Freedom is only suitable for a moral and religious people. When that goes out the window, people either need to be herded like cattle or they start killing each other. It is demonic and I am quite disturbed to see an Orthodox Christian arguing along the lines you are.

My question still stands:

Was Christ fully Man on March 25 as He was on December 25, or was He not?

All the rest is philosophy and personal opinion. But if the God-Man existed on March 25, then humanity is bestowed at conception and abortion at any stage is necessarily murder.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 04:34:32 PM by bogdan » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,140


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #137 on: October 03, 2011, 04:37:49 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was. The same can be done with abortion, lest anyone forget.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #138 on: October 03, 2011, 05:01:45 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #139 on: October 03, 2011, 05:03:50 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?

How is "they" nebulous? He qualified it with High School. I seriously doubt he's talking about the janitor.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,525



« Reply #140 on: October 03, 2011, 05:10:49 PM »

I do acknowledge end-of-life issues are more complicated, and perhaps that would be better as its own thread. For the purposes of this thread, I would still like to discuss the abortion aspect.

I dont think a fertilized egg is a person in the exact same way as a mother of five. Your mileage may vary.

You keep saying this, but on what grounds? Was Christ fully Man on March 25 as He was on December 25, or was He not?

People are smart enough to see that a recently divided cell is not the same type of Person as your Grandma. She can bake a fine apple pie. A zygote cant.


True enough. However, let's carry comparisons further shall we?

Autistic kids are not the same as normal kids. Kill them!

Kids with cystic fibrosis are not the same as normal kids. Do away with them!

Girls are are not the same as boys. Throw them off the cliffs!

Grandma who is senile is not the same as grandma who is not. Put her in the incinerator!

Gypsies, homosexuals and Jews are not the same as normal Germans. Gas them!

Intellectuals and rich folks are not the same as workers and farmers. Starve the, imprison them, work them to death!

You see, once you make it a matter of utility, it is just a matter of opinion. Either a person has the right to life from inception or he does not (that is his right will be at the whim of those who make the life and death decisions.)

« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 05:12:24 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #141 on: October 03, 2011, 06:07:05 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?

How is "they" nebulous? He qualified it with High School. I seriously doubt he's talking about the janitor.
Yet Papist's reference was to an indefinite group of--I assume--history teachers, which does make his use of "they" nebulous. I'd like him to identify these nameless teachers if he could.
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #142 on: October 03, 2011, 06:17:52 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?

How is "they" nebulous? He qualified it with High School. I seriously doubt he's talking about the janitor.
Yet Papist's reference was to an indefinite group of--I assume--history teachers, which does make his use of "they" nebulous. I'd like him to identify these nameless teachers if he could.

Well, then again, every single class that talked about Nazi Germany in any form mentioned the Holocaust, and included picture. Not to mention multiple tv programs and movies based on it.

So, I'm not really surprised by the statement, from my own experience.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #143 on: October 03, 2011, 06:21:42 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?

How is "they" nebulous? He qualified it with High School. I seriously doubt he's talking about the janitor.
Yet Papist's reference was to an indefinite group of--I assume--history teachers, which does make his use of "they" nebulous. I'd like him to identify these nameless teachers if he could.

Well, then again, every single class that talked about Nazi Germany in any form mentioned the Holocaust, and included picture. Not to mention multiple tv programs and movies based on it.

So, I'm not really surprised by the statement, from my own experience.
Then there's still the question of why Papist thinks we should follow their lead.
Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,521


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #144 on: October 03, 2011, 06:29:49 PM »

Both are a point of faith. It is a religious tenet that at the moment of conception a "Soul" enters. Prove it. Of course you cant. It's an article of faith.

You can say the same thing about the Resurrection, for goodness' sake. You can dismiss the Resurrection as an article of faith, but if that's all it is, then our faith is worthless. That is not a valid argument.

It either is, or it is not.

I think it's a very hard sell to call a Zygote a "Baby" and then from there call a Woman a murderer and then from there say Abortion is the same thing as the European Holocaust. It sounds irrational.

The bit about the mother is a red herring which I will address below, for I have said nothing about what the mother is or is not. So bear with me.

Whereas, full human dignity and personhood exists in a fetus (says the Church), and
Whereas, 53+ million human persons have been killed as a result of abortion, and
Whereas, a "holocaust" is (among other things) a legal killing of many people,

Therefore, the unrighteous slaughter of innocents can rightly be called a "holocaust."

Three points and a conclusion. That is not irrationality.

Now, to the red herring: The Church says she is a murderer (as per the canons). Now, we do not run her out of society or persecute her for it, because no woman gets an abortion because she is a bloodthirsty maniac. But let's not mince words and obfuscate the fact of the matter. The Church offers healing for her, but that does not change the reality of the situation. That is lacking discernment.

Many people dont believe there is such a thing as a soul. Many others totally misunderstand what a soul is or it's nature and even fewer have a Catholic or Orthodox understanding.

So? Truth and reality are not subject to popular referendum.

People are smart enough to see that a recently divided cell is not the same type of Person as your Grandma. She can bake a fine apple pie. A zygote cant.

Humanity is not defined by the person's value or contributions to society. It is defined by bearing the image of God, and an embryo bears the image of God because Christ once was an embryo.

These sorts of extreme characterizations, outlandish comparisons and ghastly pictures is what is bothering me. You are asking people to adopt certain key elements of your argument based purely on your own personal religious faith. I suggest making the argument against Abortion on different terms and on more solid ground. Otherwise, you will continue to see abortions continue at a high rate.

Then it's already lost. If people are free to define for themselves what humanity is, then why not kill an infant after birth? The Australian bioethicist Peter Singer says, "killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living."

So why not abort a 3-month-old infant when the parents find it too difficult to care for it?

Or a two-year-old? They are not really self-aware, not in the way adults are. Kill 'em if they're inconvenient.

There are already people who support those views. Not many, but at one time most people did not support sucking babies' brains out, either.

John Adams was right. Freedom is only suitable for a moral and religious people. When that goes out the window, people either need to be herded like cattle or they start killing each other. It is demonic and I am quite disturbed to see an Orthodox Christian arguing along the lines you are.

My question still stands:

Was Christ fully Man on March 25 as He was on December 25, or was He not?

All the rest is philosophy and personal opinion. But if the God-Man existed on March 25, then humanity is bestowed at conception and abortion at any stage is necessarily murder.

You can say the same thing about the Resurrection, for goodness' sake. You can dismiss the Resurrection as an article of faith, but if that's all it is, then our faith is worthless. That is not a valid argument.

It either is, or it is not.


ummmmm..Correct.. Articles of faith are like each other. They require Faith.

Sooooooooooooo..therefore, you should be sensitive when basing your arguments on your own personal set of religious  beliefs. Try not to foist them upon others... It's bad form.

You can and should try to convert them to Christianity. Then you will have similar metaphysical beliefs, until then, try other arguments.



Whereas, full human dignity and personhood exists in a fetus (says the Church), and
Whereas, 53+ million human persons have been killed as a result of abortion, and
Whereas, a "holocaust" is (among other things) a legal killing of many people,

Therefore, the unrighteous slaughter of innocents can rightly be called a "holocaust."


I understand the internal logic. It's just a horrible argument because it is not presented as "A" Holocaust. It is posed in juxtaposition to the European Holocaust of World War Two, which is offensive to many and a real stretch. A zygote aborted with a morning after pill is not the same as whole families being rounded up sent to camps and gassed. Not to make light of Abortion but the paradigm you wish to jam it into is a bit delusional.  

More later.. I gotta run.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #145 on: October 03, 2011, 07:56:46 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?

How is "they" nebulous? He qualified it with High School. I seriously doubt he's talking about the janitor.
Yet Papist's reference was to an indefinite group of--I assume--history teachers, which does make his use of "they" nebulous. I'd like him to identify these nameless teachers if he could.

When I was in high school we were shown films of radiation burned Japanese civilians.  I saw those films in my classrooms in central PA,  and in an auditorium in a High School in New Jersey where thousands of young people had converged for the Model U.N....I don't remember the year.

So who dat say dat who dat...
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,076


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #146 on: October 03, 2011, 08:18:51 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?

How is "they" nebulous? He qualified it with High School. I seriously doubt he's talking about the janitor.
Yet Papist's reference was to an indefinite group of--I assume--history teachers, which does make his use of "they" nebulous. I'd like him to identify these nameless teachers if he could.

When I was in high school we were shown films of radiation burned Japanese civilians.  I saw those films in my classrooms in central PA,  and in an auditorium in a High School in New Jersey where thousands of young people had converged for the Model U.N....I don't remember the year.

So who dat say dat who dat...

Sounds like the twice a year mandatory diversity programs we had to attend or the mandated undergrad requirements to fulfil the diversity requirements. We watched the same civil rights movies showing Irish and Black children being compared to dogs, Holocaust scenes, and those depicting Japanese internment camps year after year.  Propaganda? Brainwashing? probably.

By the way, unborn babies do not have any rights, hence they were not included in the Diversity Programs, so while we were shown the piles of dead bodies of the Holocaust, we were never shown pictures of aborted babies.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 08:43:31 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #147 on: October 03, 2011, 08:26:09 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?

How is "they" nebulous? He qualified it with High School. I seriously doubt he's talking about the janitor.
Yet Papist's reference was to an indefinite group of--I assume--history teachers, which does make his use of "they" nebulous. I'd like him to identify these nameless teachers if he could.

When I was in high school we were shown films of radiation burned Japanese civilians.  I saw those films in my classrooms in central PA,  and in an auditorium in a High School in New Jersey where thousands of young people had converged for the Model U.N....I don't remember the year.

So who dat say dat who dat...
1. You're not Papist.
2. You're relating a totally unrelated story.

So who dat say dat who dat... Cheesy
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,525



« Reply #148 on: October 03, 2011, 09:22:08 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?
Does it really matter exactly who shows pictures of historical nature in history classes? Wouldn't the presumption be that "they" were the persons in charge of the class--that is a teacher or somebody empowered by the teacher? I think that Papist has made his point well and need not answer your questions.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #149 on: October 04, 2011, 12:47:56 AM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?
Does it really matter exactly who shows pictures of historical nature in history classes? Wouldn't the presumption be that "they" were the persons in charge of the class--that is a teacher or somebody empowered by the teacher? I think that Papist has made his point well and need not answer your questions.
He doesn't have to answer my questions if he doesn't want to, but I would appreciate it if he did.
Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #150 on: October 04, 2011, 01:01:08 AM »

ummmmm..Correct.. Articles of faith are like each other. They require Faith.

Sooooooooooooo..therefore, you should be sensitive when basing your arguments on your own personal set of religious  beliefs. Try not to foist them upon others... It's bad form.

Christianity is the truth, not an opinion, and it should be foisted on people if they are going to insist on murdering other people.

You can and should try to convert them to Christianity. Then you will have similar metaphysical beliefs, until then, try other arguments.

I refuse to accept the premise that all belief systems are equally valid. Those belief systems that turn human beings into commodities are invalid and not worthy of debate.

understand the internal logic. It's just a horrible argument because it is not presented as "A" Holocaust. It is posed in juxtaposition to the European Holocaust of World War Two, which is offensive to many and a real stretch. A zygote aborted with a morning after pill is not the same as whole families being rounded up sent to camps and gassed. Not to make light of Abortion but the paradigm you wish to jam it into is a bit delusional.

No, it's worse. At least the Jews had a sporting chance, and at least "only" six million of them were killed. Meanwhile abortionism has murdered nine times that many people, and utterly vulnerable ones at that.

I'm looking at statistics and factual numbers, just like the people who make value judgments on human lives. That's offensive when we compare it to the horrific Jewish Holocaust, but it's dandy when we are deciding whether an Image-bearing unborn child is worthy of life?

How far we have come in only 70 years! I can't wait to see what's cooking for 2080! (Geriatricide will likely be in place by then, so I probably won't even live that long.)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 01:10:49 AM by bogdan » Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #151 on: October 04, 2011, 01:12:31 AM »

You see, once you make it a matter of utility, it is just a matter of opinion. Either a person has the right to life from inception or he does not (that is his right will be at the whim of those who make the life and death decisions.)

Exactly.

Which is why people must not have the freedom to make these kinds of decisions. If they are not restrained by their own morality, they should be restrained by the morality of those who have valid moral systems. Which is the ultimate point of law and government in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 01:12:59 AM by bogdan » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #152 on: October 04, 2011, 01:30:54 AM »

You see, once you make it a matter of utility, it is just a matter of opinion. Either a person has the right to life from inception or he does not (that is his right will be at the whim of those who make the life and death decisions.)

Exactly.

Which is why people must not have the freedom to make these kinds of decisions. If they are not restrained by their own morality, they should be restrained by the morality of those who have valid moral systems. Which is the ultimate point of law and government in the first place.


Indeed! I am reminded of what Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. said: "You cannot legislate morality, but you can regulate behavior. The law cannot change the heart, but it can restrain the heartless."

Selam
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 01:31:42 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #153 on: October 04, 2011, 07:53:16 AM »

Babies are being saved

http://www.40daysforlife.com/

Why don't the Orthodox join us?
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,456



« Reply #154 on: October 04, 2011, 09:19:53 AM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?
Does it really matter exactly who shows pictures of historical nature in history classes? Wouldn't the presumption be that "they" were the persons in charge of the class--that is a teacher or somebody empowered by the teacher? I think that Papist has made his point well and need not answer your questions.
He doesn't have to answer my questions if he doesn't want to, but I would appreciate it if he did.

They - 3rd Person Plural Pronoun.  Often used in English to refer to a group of people who are not significant enough to be referred to using a proper noun or even a common noun for that matter.  I know I am not papist, or even a papist for that matter, but it really is an easy answer and most of us could probably answer it, so i did.
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #155 on: October 04, 2011, 09:41:13 AM »

Babies are being saved

http://www.40daysforlife.com/

Why don't the Orthodox join us?


I and many other Orthodox will gladly join our Catholic brethren in this endeavor. bless!


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #156 on: October 04, 2011, 10:16:18 AM »

Babies are being saved

http://www.40daysforlife.com/

Why don't the Orthodox join us?


I and many other Orthodox will gladly join our Catholic brethren in this endeavor. bless!


Selam


God bless you Selam !
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #157 on: October 04, 2011, 12:57:18 PM »

Babies are being saved

http://www.40daysforlife.com/

Why don't the Orthodox join us?
Ah...so this was an elaborate way to troll the Eastern Orthodox. Good one!  Roll Eyes
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #158 on: October 04, 2011, 01:06:58 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?
Does it really matter exactly who shows pictures of historical nature in history classes? Wouldn't the presumption be that "they" were the persons in charge of the class--that is a teacher or somebody empowered by the teacher? I think that Papist has made his point well and need not answer your questions.
He doesn't have to answer my questions if he doesn't want to, but I would appreciate it if he did.

They - 3rd Person Plural Pronoun.  Often used in English to refer to a group of people who are not significant enough to be referred to using a proper noun or even a common noun for that matter.  I know I am not papist, or even a papist for that matter, but it really is an easy answer and most of us could probably answer it, so i did.
And yet, you're following after everyone else who has tried to answer this question by answering only the first half of it. What about the second half, the whole point of my question? Why should we follow their precedent?
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #159 on: October 04, 2011, 01:09:51 PM »

I don't believe that was written by a developing fetus, sorry.

I mean there are some Medieval accounts of the lives of Saints that push the limits of credulity (think St. Rumwold of Buckingham), but this I cannot believe.

Do you think photos of dead babies and purple prose are going to get Christians to feel sufficiently bad enough about abortion for you?

What is your point?

What would you like nearly everyone here who believes abortion is the ending of a human life to walk away from this stuff with?

Other than a distaste for your rhetoric and self-agranndizement?
In high school history classes they show pictures of the victims of the Holocaust in order to demonstrate how horrible it truly was.
Who's this nebulous "they", and why should we follow their precedent?
Does it really matter exactly who shows pictures of historical nature in history classes? Wouldn't the presumption be that "they" were the persons in charge of the class--that is a teacher or somebody empowered by the teacher? I think that Papist has made his point well and need not answer your questions.
He doesn't have to answer my questions if he doesn't want to, but I would appreciate it if he did.

They - 3rd Person Plural Pronoun.  Often used in English to refer to a group of people who are not significant enough to be referred to using a proper noun or even a common noun for that matter.  I know I am not papist, or even a papist for that matter, but it really is an easy answer and most of us could probably answer it, so i did.
And yet, you're following after everyone else who has tried to answer this question by answering only the first half of it. What about the second half, the whole point of my question? Why should we follow their precedent?

Because it's been working?

What's the majority public opinion of these events?
Logged


I'm going to need this.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,196


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #160 on: October 04, 2011, 01:12:00 PM »

I find this topic reminding me of a Family Guy episode when Chris and his boss are talking about a movie and his boss says, "That movie was awesome! Please agree with me that the movie was awesome! Hug me!"

Posting to have everyone say you're right does little for discussion.

So the next posting should be, "Jesus is Lord, Right?!?!?!?!?"

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #161 on: October 04, 2011, 01:22:11 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective. But I personally find it distasteful, judgmental, self-righteous - and quite frankly ignorant - to condemn and ridicule the actions and words of those who actually care enough to make an effort to place their small thumbs in the dike of this wholesale slaughter of the innocents that is euphemistically called "abortion".


I rarely quote politicians; but this is one of my favorite quotes, and I find it very apropos to this thread:

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."         -Teddy Roosevelt-


Selam
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 01:22:42 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #162 on: October 04, 2011, 01:46:55 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?

But I personally find it distasteful, judgmental, self-righteous - and quite frankly ignorant - to condemn and ridicule the actions and words of those who actually care enough to make an effort to place their small thumbs in the dike of this wholesale slaughter of the innocents that is euphemistically called "abortion".
There's a time and a place even on this forum for your crusade, Gebre. My only concern is that there are certain places on this forum where your and JR's tactic of posting photos of aborted babies is not appropriate. Other than that, though I do admit that I find such photos distasteful wherever I see them and will say so, outspoken critic that I am, I will not oppose your efforts to post them, if you post them in a place where they aren't inappropriate. In the end, I find your vision and goals admirable, and I support your desire to achieve them; I just think a gentler, more peaceful, less in-your-face approach is the better way to achieve your goals.

I rarely quote politicians; but this is one of my favorite quotes, and I find it very apropos to this thread:

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."         -Teddy Roosevelt-


Selam
Who was it that said you'll draw more flies with honey than with vinegar?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 01:55:59 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #163 on: October 04, 2011, 01:58:59 PM »

Except that I'll bet you will get draw more flies with vinegar than honey.

SRSLY.

And for an astute observation you can make to folks, Miller High Life draws fruit flies like nothing else.

Decades of observation prove it. I could have hundreds of empty beer and liquor bottles in my apartment and in the MHL bottles lived hundreds of fruit flies, the others not so much.

I made this point at lunch one day and got the eye roll from one of my frenemies only to get a txt later that night while she was bowling in her tournament:

omg! ur right! everyone is drinking beer and only one pitcher of high life is out and it has a swarm of fruit flies above it and none of the others do.

Even fruit flies ain't that fond of honey. Sorta why honey is like a staple of life. One of the few foods that will not go bad in any reasonable amount of time and also few non mammals are going to compete with you to eat. The ones that will are benign: ants.

Back to the High Life. There is a "pizza" place up the street I used to frequent. I would take folks there and order a fruit plate. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Nothing--maybe a fly or two.

Order a pitcher of MHL: within minutes a few flies and within 15 a swarm, with few caring about the "fruit".




Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #164 on: October 04, 2011, 02:02:10 PM »

Except that I'll bet you will get draw more flies with vinegar than honey.

SRSLY.

And for an astute observation you can make to folks, Miller High Life draws fruit flies like nothing else.

Decades of observation prove it. I could have hundreds of empty beer and liquor bottles in my apartment and in the MHL bottles lived hundreds of fruit flies, the others not so much.

I made this point at lunch one day and got the eye roll from one of my frenemies only to get a txt later that night while she was bowling in her tournament:

omg! ur right! everyone is drinking beer and only one pitcher of high life is out and it has a swarm of fruit flies above it and none of the others do.

Even fruit flies ain't that fond of honey. Sorta why honey is like a staple of life. One of the few foods that will not go bad in any reasonable amount of time and also few non mammals are going to compete with you to eat. The ones that will are benign: ants.

Back to the High Life. There is a "pizza" place up the street I used to frequent. I would take folks there and order a fruit plate. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Nothing--maybe a fly or two.

Order a pitcher of MHL: within minutes a few flies and within 15 a swarm, with few caring about the "fruit".
Just shows you that even fruit flies like to have a good time. laugh
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #165 on: October 04, 2011, 02:08:37 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?



With respect, don't assume what I assume Peter. If you have some suggestions to offer, then please do so. I can promise you that I am open to any strategies, tactics, and solutions that don't involve violence. You say that you prefer a less aggressive, less "in your face" approach. So do I. But different situations call for different approaches. I personally think that the more suggestions and strategies that are offered, the better hope we have of actually reducing and hopefully ending abortion.

Perhaps - and I mean this sincerely - you could provide some exmples of how you would personally go about dissuading women from killing their unborn babies. I imagine that you have some good ideas.

If all of us that are truly opposed to abortion would encourage each other and work together, then I think great things could happen.


"Lord have mercy."


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #166 on: October 04, 2011, 02:11:38 PM »

Except that I'll bet you will get draw more flies with vinegar than honey.

SRSLY.

And for an astute observation you can make to folks, Miller High Life draws fruit flies like nothing else.

Decades of observation prove it. I could have hundreds of empty beer and liquor bottles in my apartment and in the MHL bottles lived hundreds of fruit flies, the others not so much.

I made this point at lunch one day and got the eye roll from one of my frenemies only to get a txt later that night while she was bowling in her tournament:

omg! ur right! everyone is drinking beer and only one pitcher of high life is out and it has a swarm of fruit flies above it and none of the others do.

Even fruit flies ain't that fond of honey. Sorta why honey is like a staple of life. One of the few foods that will not go bad in any reasonable amount of time and also few non mammals are going to compete with you to eat. The ones that will are benign: ants.

Back to the High Life. There is a "pizza" place up the street I used to frequent. I would take folks there and order a fruit plate. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Nothing--maybe a fly or two.

Order a pitcher of MHL: within minutes a few flies and within 15 a swarm, with few caring about the "fruit".




Gonna PM you with something that is blowing my mind right now!


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #167 on: October 04, 2011, 02:14:26 PM »

Except that I'll bet you will get draw more flies with vinegar than honey.

SRSLY.

And for an astute observation you can make to folks, Miller High Life draws fruit flies like nothing else.

Decades of observation prove it. I could have hundreds of empty beer and liquor bottles in my apartment and in the MHL bottles lived hundreds of fruit flies, the others not so much.

I made this point at lunch one day and got the eye roll from one of my frenemies only to get a txt later that night while she was bowling in her tournament:

omg! ur right! everyone is drinking beer and only one pitcher of high life is out and it has a swarm of fruit flies above it and none of the others do.

Even fruit flies ain't that fond of honey. Sorta why honey is like a staple of life. One of the few foods that will not go bad in any reasonable amount of time and also few non mammals are going to compete with you to eat. The ones that will are benign: ants.

Back to the High Life. There is a "pizza" place up the street I used to frequent. I would take folks there and order a fruit plate. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Nothing--maybe a fly or two.

Order a pitcher of MHL: within minutes a few flies and within 15 a swarm, with few caring about the "fruit".




Gonna PM you with something that is blowing my mind right now!


Selam


Go easy. My mind has been through enough.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #168 on: October 04, 2011, 02:16:46 PM »

Here is why I accept the 'visual shock method' (c).

There was a time when I was ambivalent to abortion, among other things that I was accepting (in this regard). It wasn't until I started to understand that a baby, no matter how small, including a "fetus", when killed was identical to killing a grown individual. If I was to reject murder in all forms, (which as my opinions changed, so did my opinion to support the rejection of murder) then I would have to reject the killing of a adult/child/fetus/zygote.

That being said, some people will refuse to acknowledge a child within the womb, no matter the stage, to be a person (in the fullest sense). When this is the case, the burden of evidence is to convince the denier of this opinion. To do so, pictures of aborted babies, requiring the acknowledgement of the formed parts. Once this has been accomplished, then it is a game of walking the formation back and/or discussing when this formed baby is no longer a baby (and why). That initial acceptance is critical, of which, is merely arguing concepts without regard to reality.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #169 on: October 04, 2011, 02:22:31 PM »

I do acknowledge end-of-life issues are more complicated, and perhaps that would be better as its own thread. For the purposes of this thread, I would still like to discuss the abortion aspect.

I dont think a fertilized egg is a person in the exact same way as a mother of five. Your mileage may vary.

You keep saying this, but on what grounds? Was Christ fully Man on March 25 as He was on December 25, or was He not?

Both are a point of faith. It is a religious tenet that at the moment of conception a "Soul" enters. Prove it. Of course you cant. It's an article of faith.

I think it's a very hard sell to call a Zygote a "Baby" and then from there call a Woman a murderer and then from there say Abortion is the same thing as the European Holocaust. It sounds irrational.

Many people dont believe there is such a thing as a soul. Many others totally misunderstand what a soul is or it's nature and even fewer have a Catholic or Orthodox understanding.

People are smart enough to see that a recently divided cell is not the same type of Person as your Grandma. She can bake a fine apple pie. A zygote cant.

These sorts of extreme characterizations, outlandish comparisons and ghastly pictures is what is bothering me. You are asking people to adopt certain key elements of your argument based purely on your own personal religious faith. I suggest making the argument against Abortion on different terms and on more solid ground. Otherwise, you will continue to see abortions continue at a high rate.


Do you agree with Orthodoxy that human beings are both "body and soul" creatures? That is, that we are not souls trapped in a body, but the separation of soul from body to be unnatural. If you do, then a soul is present at the very moment a human life is created. When is that creation? I would defend, at the first independent and genetically complete (and unique) cell is made, i.e. at conception.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,562


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #170 on: October 04, 2011, 02:25:57 PM »

If any ostensible anti-abortion Orthodox Christians disagree with the various and diverse methods, actions, and tactics of those who are actually engaged in efforts to disclose the horrific realities of abortion and are actively trying to deter abortion-minded women from that irrevocable, soul-scarring, and murderous act, then please provide us with suggestions and solutions that you feel are more effective.
Do you assume that those who criticize your methods on this forum automatically mark themselves as not involved in the work of trying to dissuade others from having abortions? Are we automatically your enemies if we don't support you without reservation nor participate in pro-life activities to the extent that you do?



With respect, don't assume what I assume Peter.
That's why I started by asking you a question. I'm not assuming anything. I want to know what you're thinking.

If you have some suggestions to offer, then please do so. I can promise you that I am open to any strategies, tactics, and solutions that don't involve violence. You say that you prefer a less aggressive, less "in your face" approach. So do I. But different situations call for different approaches.
Yes they do. The Religious Topics board permits certain types of posts that are not appropriate for either the Orthodoxy Family Forum or the Other Topics board.

I personally think that the more suggestions and strategies that are offered, the better hope we have of actually reducing and hopefully ending abortion.

Perhaps - and I mean this sincerely - you could provide some exmples of how you would personally go about dissuading women from killing their unborn babies. I imagine that you have some good ideas.

If all of us that are truly opposed to abortion would encourage each other and work together, then I think great things could happen.
Sometimes, Gebre, the best alternatives are boundaries. Some actions are legal, and some are illegal. It's OK to picket an abortion clinic, but it's not OK to kill an abortion doctor, for instance. Some actions are appropriate for a particular time and place, and some are not. I'm not sure I can offer any more positive alternatives than you already know and use, since you're closer to the front lines of the war against abortion than I am. All I'm really qualified to offer is that there are certain places where a more militaristic, in-your-face approach is good, and there are places where it's not appropriate. You really have to be sensitive to the culture of a place to know for certain, and I can't teach that discernment to you.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 02:28:49 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #171 on: October 04, 2011, 02:28:01 PM »

Here is why I accept the 'visual shock method' (c).

There was a time when I was ambivalent to abortion, among other things that I was accepting (in this regard). It wasn't until I started to understand that a baby, no matter how small, including a "fetus", when killed was identical to killing a grown individual. If I was to reject murder in all forms, (which as my opinions changed, so did my opinion to support the rejection of murder) then I would have to reject the killing of a adult/child/fetus/zygote.

That being said, some people will refuse to acknowledge a child within the womb, no matter the stage, to be a person (in the fullest sense). When this is the case, the burden of evidence is to convince the denier of this opinion. To do so, pictures of aborted babies, requiring the acknowledgement of the formed parts. Once this has been accomplished, then it is a game of walking the formation back and/or discussing when this formed baby is no longer a baby (and why). That initial acceptance is critical, of which, is merely arguing concepts without regard to reality.


Exactly!

And that being said, I don't believe that visual shock is always or only the best method to use. During my years as a sidewalk counsellor, I never used the signs of aborted babies. My approach was to do whatever I could to invite women to come over and talk to me, or at least take the literature I had for them. I felt that the graphic signs would only drive them away from me. However, other Pro-Lifers would use the signs. Sometimes I really hated it, because I felt that those signs made my job harder. But, I can also tell you that I have had many women tell me that they chose not to abort their babies because they saw those signs and it made a profound impact on them. So that's why I have learned not to judge and condemn the methods of others, even when they may be completely at odds with my own approach. God can use any of us; and as someome once told me, "God can draw a straight line with a crooked stick." The only thing I unequivocally reject is violence.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #172 on: October 04, 2011, 02:32:13 PM »

Why isn't OK to kill an abortion doctor? Seriously.

Guy walking up to kill a kid standing next to me. I know he is going to do it. I can stop it by stopping his life.

Or the better analogy, the next door makes his living killing fives year olds no one wants anymore and bribes the authorities to do nothing about it.

And I kill him.

Is that OK?

My Priest I doubt is going to condemn me. I would have to repent. But how bad is such an act really, if you all truly believe the way you do?

I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 02:32:33 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #173 on: October 04, 2011, 02:34:26 PM »

Sometimes, Gebre, the best alternatives are boundaries. Some actions are legal, and some are illegal. It's OK to picket an abortion clinic, but it's not OK to kill an abortion doctor, for instance. Some actions are appropriate for a particular time and place, and some are not. I'm not sure I can offer any more positive alternatives than you already know and use, since you're closer to the front lines of the war against abortion than I am. All I'm really qualified to offer is that there are certain places where a more militaristic, in-your-face approach is good, and there are places where it's not appropriate. You really have to be sensitive to the culture of a place to know for certain, and I can't teach that discernment to you.

I agree with you Peter. That's why I posted the Teddy Roosevelt quote before. In the midst of the battle, things are not so easy to discern. Of course, as you well know, I always condemn violence as an appropriate method for accomplishing righteousness. I have come to greatly admire anyone who is trying to nonviolently bring attention to the plight of the unborn, and who is pointing out the damage that abortion does to all who are involved in it. I know the persecution they face, and I hate to see them ridiculed and judged by their fellow Christian brethren.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,525



« Reply #174 on: October 04, 2011, 02:36:36 PM »

Babies are being saved

http://www.40daysforlife.com/

Why don't the Orthodox join us?

Some of us joined you and Fundamental Protestants in signing the Manhattan Declaration. We participate in rallies, including the national one. It is one of those issues that join us in a common cause.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,090


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #175 on: October 04, 2011, 02:40:31 PM »


I know Gebre ain't killing no one, so this ain't directed at him. He would let the guy kill his kids. But I'm talking to the rest of your who would protect your children and probably your neighbors' children, etc.


I know you're just trying to provoke me brother. But I want you to know that I find such an unfounded accusation beyond the pale of decency. I can assure that while I am indeed a pacifist, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms not to lay a finger on my children.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,328


« Reply #176 on: October 04, 2011, 02:44:46 PM »

I saw this picture thought it fit well in some recent threads...

Logged

.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
**********