Fabio Leite
High Elder
 Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,800
|
 |
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2011, 04:30:42 PM » |
|
God's all-knowing capacity doesn't influence free-will.
Like a man from the top of the building knows what's after the corner but the one heading that direction doesn't. The man on the street receives a message from the one at the top of the building saying "don't turn at the corner! There's a traffic jam there and a fire!" If he chooses to assert his "freedom" by turning anyway he will be caught in the traffic jam. If he goes straight, he will go through the longer course but will arrive in time and safely.
God created us to go straight, no turns. More than just warn from the top, He came down to show us the way. And for those who were too far to hear Him, He left maps in their hearts. The ways are predetermined and what will happen in case of each choice is as well. And we know what will happen to those who turn. But nobody was created to be stuck in the traffic jam.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
|
|
|
Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
Site Supporter
Warned
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Building Steam with a Grain of Salt
Jurisdiction: Just as little is seen in pure light as in pure darkness.
Posts: 9,304
And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
|
|
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2011, 06:24:13 PM » |
|
I always believed that God's "all knowingness" stops by our "Free will". God can't forsee what actions we are going to make.
If God knew what we were going to do then there wouldn't such a thing as love between us and God.
That's open theism, probably a heresy in Orthodoxy. Why does knowing what we'll do cancel out the love? That's like saying God doesn't love sinners. Actually it ain't. Open theism is when God knows the future and there isn't such a thing as free will. You got the wrong idea about love too It kinda is. What you describe is determinism. Practically, open theism makes the case for a personal God who is open to influence through the prayers, decisions, and actions of people. Although many specific outcomes of the future are unknowable, God's foreknowledge of the future includes that which is determined as time progresses often in light of free decisions that have been made and what has been sociologically determined. So God knows everything that has been determined as well as what has not yet been determined but remains open. As such, God is able to anticipate the future, yet remains fluid to respond and react to prayer and decisions made either contrary or advantageous to God's plan or presuppositions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theismI've not come across any ancient source that discusses God having an absolute comprehensive fixed view of the future. But regardless I think Fabio has provided a succint response. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
|
|
|
|
William
|
|
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2011, 06:30:40 PM » |
|
For the same reason that He would beget a Son.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
A beard covers many chins. - Tallitot
|
|
|
|
NicholasMyra
|
|
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2011, 06:38:14 PM » |
|
Open theism is when God knows the future and there isn't such a thing as free will.
No it isn't, Achronos. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Volnutt
|
|
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2011, 09:17:47 PM » |
|
If God is all knowing and all good, then why did He create us? He knew that He would create us, that humanity would fall, and many people would suffer on earth and in the afterlife (hell). Why are we here then? God knew well before He made us that many of us would die and go to hell to suffer eternally. Whats the point then? Why did He make us in the first place when it seems many of us were born to go to hell? I know, we have free will, but since God is all knowing, He knew that many human beings would use their free will and go to hell for it.
I always believed that God's "all knowingness" stops by our "Free will". God can't forsee what actions we are going to make. If God knew what we were going to do then there wouldn't such a thing as love between us and God. That's open theism, probably a heresy in Orthodoxy. Why does knowing what we'll do cancel out the love? That's like saying God doesn't love sinners. Actually it ain't. Open theism is when God knows the future and there isn't such a thing as free will. You got the wrong idea about love too No, open theists believe free will is impossible if God knows what we will choose, hence book titles like The God who Risks.And how do I have the wrong idea about love? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
|
|
|
|
Volnutt
|
|
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2011, 09:20:45 PM » |
|
God is creative, that's why he created, because he can't not create, it's who he is, it's what love does - overflows and touches others - it wasn't from a lack of love. God is complete ergo love is complete, whole and perfect. I think of my friend, who will not communicate with me. I love her so much, i don't know what i've done wrong and if i did, i'd put it right immediately because i love her. I hate not being able to chat with her, my whole history is scattered with fun times that include her. Dancing, movies, girl chat, hugs etc. and as much as i hurt because she won't even tell me what's wrong <and it does hurt so much> imagine how much more God loves even those of us who continue to do our own thing. Or those who reject him completely and are too damaged to change without significant divine intervention. It's life Andrew, as bad as it can be sometimes, i'd rather get through the bad bits because the good bits are so, so good. Same with God probably. That's a good explanation. I hope your friend comes around someday.  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 09:22:23 PM by Volnutt »
|
Logged
|
I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
|
|
|
Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
Site Supporter
Warned
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Building Steam with a Grain of Salt
Jurisdiction: Just as little is seen in pure light as in pure darkness.
Posts: 9,304
And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
|
|
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2011, 10:50:40 PM » |
|
Open theism is when God knows the future and there isn't such a thing as free will.
No it isn't, Achronos. You're right, I got it mixed up with classical theism. My apologies. If God is all knowing and all good, then why did He create us? He knew that He would create us, that humanity would fall, and many people would suffer on earth and in the afterlife (hell). Why are we here then? God knew well before He made us that many of us would die and go to hell to suffer eternally. Whats the point then? Why did He make us in the first place when it seems many of us were born to go to hell? I know, we have free will, but since God is all knowing, He knew that many human beings would use their free will and go to hell for it.
I always believed that God's "all knowingness" stops by our "Free will". God can't forsee what actions we are going to make. If God knew what we were going to do then there wouldn't such a thing as love between us and God. That's open theism, probably a heresy in Orthodoxy. Why does knowing what we'll do cancel out the love? That's like saying God doesn't love sinners. Actually it ain't. Open theism is when God knows the future and there isn't such a thing as free will. You got the wrong idea about love too No, open theists believe free will is impossible if God knows what we will choose, hence book titles like The God who Risks.And how do I have the wrong idea about love? Sorry I got it mixed up, please disregard my drivel. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
|
|
|
|
Volnutt
|
|
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2011, 11:23:47 PM » |
|
Open theism is when God knows the future and there isn't such a thing as free will.
No it isn't, Achronos. You're right, I got it mixed up with classical theism. My apologies. If God is all knowing and all good, then why did He create us? He knew that He would create us, that humanity would fall, and many people would suffer on earth and in the afterlife (hell). Why are we here then? God knew well before He made us that many of us would die and go to hell to suffer eternally. Whats the point then? Why did He make us in the first place when it seems many of us were born to go to hell? I know, we have free will, but since God is all knowing, He knew that many human beings would use their free will and go to hell for it.
I always believed that God's "all knowingness" stops by our "Free will". God can't forsee what actions we are going to make. If God knew what we were going to do then there wouldn't such a thing as love between us and God. That's open theism, probably a heresy in Orthodoxy. Why does knowing what we'll do cancel out the love? That's like saying God doesn't love sinners. Actually it ain't. Open theism is when God knows the future and there isn't such a thing as free will. You got the wrong idea about love too No, open theists believe free will is impossible if God knows what we will choose, hence book titles like The God who Risks.And how do I have the wrong idea about love? Sorry I got it mixed up, please disregard my drivel. S'ok. Happens to me all the time  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
|
|
|
|
Aindriú
|
|
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2011, 11:50:29 AM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
 I'm going to need this. |
|
|
|
Volnutt
|
|
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2011, 12:45:31 PM » |
|
Weeee'l meet agaaaaain. Don't know where, don't know wheeeeen! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not posting on oc.net for the time being. Thank you to everyone for your support!
|
|
|
myrrhbear
Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 194
Trust in God
|
|
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2011, 06:16:10 PM » |
|
What kind of love would that be for God to have for us, if he created us all as robots who would automatically love and choose Him? Maybe the OP is assuming too much about what hell is/might really be?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
|
|
|
biro
Ursus maritimus
Site Supporter
Stratopedarches
Offline
Faith: Raised Roman Catholic; now attend GOA
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 9,592
Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
|
|
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2011, 07:38:40 PM » |
|
I believe Our Lord put us in a physical world because that is the way we could experience life. (This life, that is.) We are therefore subject to things in the physical world, from the forces of nature to the actions of others. Some people make terrible choices, such as striking out against others. The Lord does not want this to happen; people choose to sin. He lets us continue to live so that we can have a chance to try not to sin, to fight temptation, to repent and freely participate in his love. I'm sorry if that sounds simple. This is how I see it.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 07:39:44 PM by biro »
|
Logged
|
phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
Ortho_cat
|
|
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2011, 09:15:01 PM » |
|
So He could love us.
Is it love that He would create people He knew would end up going to hell anyway? I don't think Odoxy teaches this. I think everyone has a chance when they're born to be saved. Even though there will be an eventual outcome, we do not think it is pre-determined...if that makes any sense. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
