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Author Topic: Powerful Video: Hitler and America’s Abortion Holocaust  (Read 1640 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 29, 2011, 01:05:57 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI&feature=player_embedded

Would you please provide some words to introduce your link? You can PM me and I will modify this post to make it conform to the rules. Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2011, 01:15:19 PM »

Haven't watched it, but I am sure it certainly ain't powerful.

Equating abortion with the Holocaust is so mid-Eighties.

The anti-abortionists should've minded their rhetoric, raising the bar every so slightly every so often.

Perhaps starting with: Abortion: America's New Japanese Interment Camps

Or something like that.

Where you gonna go once you've used the most poignant example in the American mind of the suffering of millions as a metaphor for abortion?

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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2011, 01:20:27 PM »

Haven't watched it, but I am sure it certainly ain't powerful.

Equating abortion with the Holocaust is so mid-Eighties.

The anti-abortionists should've minded their rhetoric, raising the bar every so slightly every so often.

Perhaps starting with: Abortion: America's New Japanese Interment Camps

Or something like that.

Where you gonna go once you've used the most poignant example in the American mind of the suffering of millions as a metaphor for abortion?



you should watch it, it will change your mind !

but if you can not be bothered it will be your loss...
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2011, 01:38:39 PM »

Godwin's Law in the OP.
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2011, 01:41:21 PM »

Godwin's Law in the OP.

Next level: Godwin in the Forum Title.
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2011, 01:44:48 PM »

Godwin's Law in the OP.

It actually violates Godwin's Law, as, by definition, a post must have at least one reply for Godwin to be invoke.

This is some division by zero level stuff.
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2011, 02:22:37 PM »


Er.. I saw about 8 minutes worth.. Didnt see a thing about Abortion.. Does it come later?

Good film about how ignorant people are about WW 2 and Hitler....
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2011, 03:40:15 PM »


Where you gonna go once you've used the most poignant example in the American mind of the suffering of millions as a metaphor for abortion?


The Famine and Civil Wars in Africa of Abortion
The Chinese Cultural Revolution of Abortion
The AIDS Epidemic of Abortion

Oh wait, your talking about the American mind...Africa doesn't matter, WTF was the Cultural Revolution, and AIDS is great for money making foundations but is otherwise so '90's.

NM
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2011, 04:14:55 PM »

I don't have the time to watch all of it. I watched the beginning and then the middle. The beginning is absolutely shocking. Can it be that so many young (and even middle-aged) people in the USA do not know who Hitler was???

In the middle, I saw the journalist asking questions that were leading the interviewed people to admit that abortion is murder (or, in other words, that life begins at conception). Since it is the belief of certain people that this is NOT SO, I don't see much point in doing what this journalist is doing. To me, of course, it is very unfortunate that people hold the belief that life DOES NOT begin at conception; but no one can change this belief by force.
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2011, 05:03:01 PM »

I didn't watch the whole thing, but I did skip through it and watch a few chunks.

All I can say is: "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." Sad

53 million lives. Makes me sick.
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2011, 05:12:43 PM »

I hate abortion enough already. You don't need to mention the Holocaust to try to convince me.

This is why I stay away from these types of films.
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2011, 05:33:51 PM »

I hate abortion enough already. You don't need to mention the Holocaust to try to convince me.

This is why I stay away from these types of films.

But wasn't it shocking to you that so many people in the USA do not know who Hitler was? Or is it a trick, i.e. the interviewer-journalist deliberately asked people to say that they did not know who Hitler was? It's just unbelievable...
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2011, 05:35:18 PM »

Documentaries are very manipulative, but I was very surprised by people not knowing who Hitler was, either. I hate that tactic and it's really for shock value....at least I hope this one is. People not even being aware of what happened around WWII in this day and age would be really sad.
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2011, 05:38:10 PM »

I hate abortion enough already. You don't need to mention the Holocaust to try to convince me.

This is why I stay away from these types of films.

But wasn't it shocking to you that so many people in the USA do not know who Hitler was? Or is it a trick, i.e. the interviewer-journalist deliberately asked people to say that they did not know who Hitler was? It's just unbelievable...

Can any of us truly say we knew the man?
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2011, 06:02:10 PM »

I hate abortion enough already. You don't need to mention the Holocaust to try to convince me.

This is why I stay away from these types of films.

But wasn't it shocking to you that so many people in the USA do not know who Hitler was? Or is it a trick, i.e. the interviewer-journalist deliberately asked people to say that they did not know who Hitler was? It's just unbelievable...

Can any of us truly say we knew the man?

The funniest thing was that Hitler was a vegetarian.

Sean Hannity used to do man on the street interviews just like this one. His reporter would ask people off the street very very simple political or social questions. Few could answer correctly.

What  is the Vice President's name?

Who is Barack Obama ( 50/50 on that one).

What city is the Capitol of the United States?


Shocking to say the least. I am not surprised at all that those people didnt know who Hitler was.

Remember when Joey on Friends had to pick a stage name?

here you go. Toooooo Funny:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-UmaJErWAg  

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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2011, 06:19:11 PM »


Where you gonna go once you've used the most poignant example in the American mind of the suffering of millions as a metaphor for abortion?


The Famine and Civil Wars in Africa of Abortion
The Chinese Cultural Revolution of Abortion
The AIDS Epidemic of Abortion

Oh wait, your talking about the American mind...Africa doesn't matter, WTF was the Cultural Revolution, and AIDS is great for money making foundations but is otherwise so '90's.

NM


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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2011, 11:15:00 AM »

Of course, none of us knows the "heart" of Hitler, only God does.

Still, I knew that Hitler was a German Nazi dictator; I think I first heard about it when I was still in the kindergarten. Later, when I was in my teens and started to read various biographies, I learned that Hitler was an aspiring artist in his youth; that he was a committed vegetarian and animal-loving person; that he never married until, literally, the last day of his life when he wed his long-time companion Eva Braun; and that he had a "piercing" stare of his bright-blue eyes and a peciliar "hyper-energetic" way of public speaking, which made some people afraid opf him and other people love him. I learned that he became a member of the German National Socialist Workers' Party soon after WWI, and the Chancellor of Germany in January 1933. In 1923, Hitler was arrested for his participation in the so-called Beer Hall Putsch in Munich, and sentenced to a rather short jail term, which he filled by dictating his future book, "Mein Kampf" ("My Struggle") to his cellmate and friend Rudolf Hess. The main idea of this book was that the history of mankind is the history of the struggle of races, where the superior Nordic race has to survive by elimination of inferior races, especially Jews. The ideology of "Mein Kampf" became the foundation of the Nazi totalitarian state in the 1930-s and -40-s, pushing it into the second world war, which ended by its destruction by the Allies.

There is a wonderful movie by a modern Russian film director, Alexandr Sokurov, called "Moloch" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch_(film) ). It shows Hitler as he probably was in his everyday life (as opposed to Hitler as he was during his public speeches): rather unassuming, even dull, having a number of strange diseases, addicted to drugs etc.
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2011, 01:53:57 PM »

Of course, none of us knows the "heart" of Hitler, only God does.

Still, I knew that Hitler was a German Nazi dictator; I think I first heard about it when I was still in the kindergarten. Later, when I was in my teens and started to read various biographies, I learned that Hitler was an aspiring artist in his youth; that he was a committed vegetarian and animal-loving person; that he never married until, literally, the last day of his life when he wed his long-time companion Eva Braun; and that he had a "piercing" stare of his bright-blue eyes and a peciliar "hyper-energetic" way of public speaking, which made some people afraid opf him and other people love him. I learned that he became a member of the German National Socialist Workers' Party soon after WWI, and the Chancellor of Germany in January 1933. In 1923, Hitler was arrested for his participation in the so-called Beer Hall Putsch in Munich, and sentenced to a rather short jail term, which he filled by dictating his future book, "Mein Kampf" ("My Struggle") to his cellmate and friend Rudolf Hess. The main idea of this book was that the history of mankind is the history of the struggle of races, where the superior Nordic race has to survive by elimination of inferior races, especially Jews. The ideology of "Mein Kampf" became the foundation of the Nazi totalitarian state in the 1930-s and -40-s, pushing it into the second world war, which ended by its destruction by the Allies.

There is a wonderful movie by a modern Russian film director, Alexandr Sokurov, called "Moloch" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch_(film) ). It shows Hitler as he probably was in his everyday life (as opposed to Hitler as he was during his public speeches): rather unassuming, even dull, having a number of strange diseases, addicted to drugs etc.

Sounds like a nice fella.. We should produce a Musical

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmYIo7bcUw
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« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2011, 02:49:04 PM »

Of course, none of us knows the "heart" of Hitler, only God does.

Still, I knew that Hitler was a German Nazi dictator; I think I first heard about it when I was still in the kindergarten. Later, when I was in my teens and started to read various biographies, I learned that Hitler was an aspiring artist in his youth; that he was a committed vegetarian and animal-loving person; that he never married until, literally, the last day of his life when he wed his long-time companion Eva Braun; and that he had a "piercing" stare of his bright-blue eyes and a peciliar "hyper-energetic" way of public speaking, which made some people afraid opf him and other people love him. I learned that he became a member of the German National Socialist Workers' Party soon after WWI, and the Chancellor of Germany in January 1933. In 1923, Hitler was arrested for his participation in the so-called Beer Hall Putsch in Munich, and sentenced to a rather short jail term, which he filled by dictating his future book, "Mein Kampf" ("My Struggle") to his cellmate and friend Rudolf Hess. The main idea of this book was that the history of mankind is the history of the struggle of races, where the superior Nordic race has to survive by elimination of inferior races, especially Jews. The ideology of "Mein Kampf" became the foundation of the Nazi totalitarian state in the 1930-s and -40-s, pushing it into the second world war, which ended by its destruction by the Allies.

There is a wonderful movie by a modern Russian film director, Alexandr Sokurov, called "Moloch" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch_(film) ). It shows Hitler as he probably was in his everyday life (as opposed to Hitler as he was during his public speeches): rather unassuming, even dull, having a number of strange diseases, addicted to drugs etc.

Sounds like a nice fella.. We should produce a Musical

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmYIo7bcUw


Oh no, in Moloch Hitler is far from a "nice fella..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4751VgoVg9I

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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2011, 03:40:41 PM »

A collection of scenes from "Moloch":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YuWcg3oz5Q
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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2011, 04:11:15 PM »

Selam all

I just saw this video, found it to be powerful as advertised thanks JR Smiley

The case the movie tried to make as far as I understood it is this:

Hitler knew he could not kill all those people alone and he did not kill all those people alone, the first step and the major step towards killing those many people especialy in the manner of which they were killed is to deny that they are Humans in the first place. If you can convince the general public that those before their eyes do not deserve to be called humans because they are NOT then all the ethical and moral code that are oh so pesky to our conscious will not feel violated, after all people slaughter animals, pluck their vegetables and cut them up, and fry them, animal fat can be used to make soaps, beauty products for the Arian race who is exceptionally made in the image and likeness of God.

It is after people were made to think on these terms that helped them to numb their conscience while they did the mass slaughter of a particular group of people labeled and tagged as non-Human species. It is this argument that necessitated the making or portrayal of the African American slave as Non-Human, an animal. It is this argument that perpetuates racial hate, the thinking that one race deserves the epitome of what Human means whereas the other/s are none humans. This disassociation added with all the other political and pseudo religious rhetoric of Hitler’s SS party helped accomplish one of the most horrific evil against Humanity.

By the same token, there has been a lot of ground work done by those who are pro-abortion, to have us think in medical jargons who for the average person help to further disassociate themselves from the human personhood of the baby, and the very action of killing being substituted by the word Abortion, to make it easier to for our conscience to do what we would otherwise would not have done if we were to think of what is done as being done to a baby. Since it is not a human baby yet its only bunch of cells and whatnot, one can chose to get rid of or accept what kind of baby one gets to keep. What the movie shows is the power of definitions, of concepts to direct which way our moral compass points to. As most of the people in the movie found it hard to say “it’s okay to kill a baby when….” And some changed their minds on the whole abortion issue the minute they start to think of it in terms of what it really represents, that is what it needed to show, that there are parallels we can drown both in the atrocities sanctioned by law, and mass deception using terminologies that help cover the real evil that is being committed and to whom it is being committed.

I also understood that this person of Jewish-American ancestry can see the parallels of the concepts behind the pro-abortion argument and the one behind the Jewish holocaust and the fact that he used it is not on the level of comparison of the historical details of what was done but rather on what leads to collective agreement on evil in what otherwise would have been seen as something unthinkable. So I found it relevant historical evidence to the case he was making on mass madness that’s mistaken for reason.

This is what I understood it to mean, I appreciate the JR for sharing this which was at least for me, highlights a rather sobering reality of societies selective amnesia, and cognitive dissonance on what perhaps is one of the most important Ethical issues that with its domino effect will continue to shape the direction of the moral essence of human civilization.


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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2011, 04:33:25 PM »

If you can convince the general public that those before their eyes do not deserve to be called humans because they are NOT then all the ethical and moral code that are oh so pesky to our conscious will not feel violated, after all people slaughter animals, pluck their vegetables and cut them up, and fry them, animal fat can be used to make soaps, beauty products for the Arian race who is exceptionally made in the image and likeness of God.
... By the same token, there has been a lot of ground work done by those who are pro-abortion, to have us think in medical jargons who for the average person help to further disassociate themselves from the human personhood of the baby, and the very action of killing being substituted by the word Abortion, to make it easier to for our conscience to do what we would otherwise would not have done if we were to think of what is done as being done to a baby. Since it is not a human baby yet its only bunch of cells and whatnot, one can chose to get rid of or accept what kind of baby one gets to keep.

I am not sure this is so - I mean, that de-humanizing a fetus was some sort of deliberate work of some evil force. In Ukrainian or Russian villages, peasant women back in the 17th-18th-19th-20th centuries aborted a lot of fetuses (of course in secret, because that was against what the Church taught, and because it was not allowed by laws of that time). But they did not need to be convinced by some outside "abortionists" that what comes out of their bodies was not a human being. I think they just viewed it as a tissue or something, not exactly as a real human being.

In some cultures, even newborn aren't considered human beings until they live for at least several weeks. That's the reason why they do not show the newborns to any visitors.

In the former USSR, abortion was legal and essentially uncontrolled in the 1920's. Then, Stalin made any form of abortion illegal and punishable by years of hard labor in the GULAG. (Apparently, he wanted to increase the birth rate, especially in the European part of the country.) Then, in ~1953 or 54, after Stalin's death, a new law was adopted, which made abortion legal and to be performed on the woman's request (she did not need to provide any explanations) until the end of the 12th week of pregnancy. It was not stated in the law, but, apparently, it was meant that until the 13th-14th week of pregnancy, the embryo is still not a human being and, actually, not even a fetus; it is, indeed, a mass of dividing cells. (Of course, modern embryology with its powerful computer imaging rejects this view - there are already signs of "humanness" in the embryo when it is even 9-10 weeks old.) Later - beginning from week 13 of pregnancy - a woman could still legally perform abortion if her doctor saw some threat to her health. (Unfortunately, women used to bribe doctors and to obtain fake "testimonials" about the threat that their pregnancies pose to them.)

There was never any deliberate talk or propaganda of the idea that an embryo or fetus is not a human being. Rather, with the Church becoming marginalized in the early 1920's, the OPPOSITE propaganda ceased. Because people were not taught, not instructed deliberately that life begins at conception, they believed, I might even say "by default," that early stages of the embryonic growth do not equal human life.


As an Orthodox Christian, I, of course, listen to my Church and obey Her teaching about the human life. But I also know that for the people who are not believers in God and who are not "Churched," the idea that LIFE of the human being begins at conception may be very foreign, and may cause sarcasm (Bill Maher loves to say that "Life begins at erection"). I believe we, those who are in the Church and who hear Her message, should, instead of coersing these "outsiders" (1 Cor. 5:12), acquire more of the precise factual knowledge about the life of embryos and fetuses. We need to popularize books, movies, taped lectures of specialists, etc.
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2011, 06:11:53 PM »

Selam heorhij,

I was not referring to any imaginary evil force out there trying to coerce people other than the premise of the logic presented at the heart of the pro abortion argument advertised and debated over mainstream media thought at higher education institutions, what needs or not to be part of the law etc that the movie was addressing.Namely the de humanising of the human embryo,  when does the human baby's life start is the heart of the argument . as you have pointed out  even those women that aborted their babies knowing what the church teaches enough to do it in secret, needed to believe it to be only a tissue, and not an actual human being. hiding a baby from others has been practiced because infant mortality was and still is very high where there is limited medical service available, so some cultures have still maintained that tradition of not naming not showing a baby until a certain time where it is reasonable to expect the baby to thrive. so again it is tied with life and death.  the naming of a baby gives it a reality in those cases . but as far as the American society is concerned the debate rages on between those church or unchurched voices that oppose abortion based on at what point it can be called human, and those that support abortion based on the same argument which says until a certain point the human embryo can not be called a human person. there are other arguments as well but at the heart of it is remains the question'what is human?'

If you can convince the general public that those before their eyes do not deserve to be called humans because they are NOT then all the ethical and moral code that are oh so pesky to our conscious will not feel violated, after all people slaughter animals, pluck their vegetables and cut them up, and fry them, animal fat can be used to make soaps, beauty products for the Arian race who is exceptionally made in the image and likeness of God.
... By the same token, there has been a lot of ground work done by those who are pro-abortion, to have us think in medical jargon who for the average person help to further disassociate themselves from the human personhood of the baby, and the very action of killing being substituted by the word Abortion, to make it easier to for our conscience to do what we would otherwise would not have done if we were to think of what is done as being done to a baby. Since it is not a human baby yet its only bunch of cells and whatnot, one can chose to get rid of or accept what kind of baby one gets to keep.

I am not sure this is so - I mean, that dehumanizing a fetus was some sort of deliberate work of some evil force. In Ukrainian or Russian villages, peasant women back in the 17th-18th-19th-20th centuries aborted a lot of fetuses (of course in secret, because that was against what the Church taught, and because it was not allowed by laws of that time). But they did not need to be convinced by some outside "abortionists" that what comes out of their bodies was not a human being. I think they just viewed it as a tissue or something, not exactly as a real human being.
In some cultures, even newborn aren't considered human beings until they live for at least several weeks. That's the reason why they do not show the newborns to any visitors.

regardless of what people like bill mar say or do not say,I agree with you that  it is true both the church and concerned ethical groups must  continue to address this ethical question for the general public, both from  scientific and universal ethical standard.( I am a believer that there is such thing as universal ethical standard, when it comes to the taking of innocent life, among other ethical concepts that i believe are shared universally)  in North America, there are those who regard it as simple as the choice of a woman in the argument they present , and there are many other arguments presented both for and against the issue. and there are those who have vested interest in it from both sides of the argument.

so going back to the video its main point as far as i understood it  says euphemisms of Abortion are hiding the real essence of what is going on. and when we buy into those euphemisms....

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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2011, 07:58:17 PM »

My hope is that something may be done to encourage more adoptions (therefore providing impetus to complete a pregnancy). Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2011, 06:46:50 AM »

I know most of you on here are American so I think this will be of interest to you.

http://www.nyc41percent.com/

This is an interactive map of New York separated by zip code, it gives you the abortion statistics for each zip code by hovering the mouse over the region.

Take a look and see what you think
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« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2011, 06:58:41 AM »

I know most of you on here are American so I think this will be of interest to you.

http://www.nyc41percent.com/

This is an interactive map of New York separated by zip code, it gives you the abortion statistics for each zip code by hovering the mouse over the region.

Take a look and see what you think

If you give me a phone registry of all the women who have had abortions, should I be moved somehow?
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« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2011, 07:04:10 AM »

I know most of you on here are American so I think this will be of interest to you.

http://www.nyc41percent.com/

This is an interactive map of New York separated by zip code, it gives you the abortion statistics for each zip code by hovering the mouse over the region.

Take a look and see what you think



If you give me a phone registry of all the women who have had abortions, should I be moved somehow?

What is your problem?

why do you act like a child having a tantrum throwing toys out of a pram?

I share for those that are interested ! if you are not interested then don't read.

Grow up with your stupid comments will you orthonorm.
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« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2011, 07:08:46 AM »

I know most of you on here are American so I think this will be of interest to you.

http://www.nyc41percent.com/

This is an interactive map of New York separated by zip code, it gives you the abortion statistics for each zip code by hovering the mouse over the region.

Take a look and see what you think



If you give me a phone registry of all the women who have had abortions, should I be moved somehow?

What is your problem?

why do you act like a child having a tantrum throwing toys out of a pram?

I share for those that are interested ! if you are not interested then don't read.

Grow up with your stupid comments will you orthonorm.

My problem? Do you really want to know? It doesn't have anything to do with you or your vacuous posts.

But I do like point out when people are being sanctimonious and self-righteous.

You and Gebre have been really helpful in educating us unfeeling masses about abortion with your clever uses of metaphor and internet 2.1.

We thank you from the bottom of our much more shallow than yours hearts.
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« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2011, 10:30:49 AM »

What is a pram ?

(slinking off to hide)
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« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2011, 10:43:09 AM »

as far as the American society is concerned the debate rages on between those church or unchurched voices that oppose abortion based on at what point it can be called human, and those that support abortion based on the same argument which says until a certain point the human embryo can not be called a human person. there are other arguments as well but at the heart of it is remains the question'what is human?'

Yes. And it is very difficult or maybe even impossible to answer this question using only scientific reasoning. There is no clear definition of life, life in general, let alone "human life." Cells are called "basic units of life," but what about non-cellular entities - viruses, viroids, prions? And then, if we accept that it is always God's will that life begins at conception, why so many spontaneous abortions? A zygote begins to divide when it is still in the Fallopian tube, literally minutes after it is formed, and in just a few DAYS, it is allready an embryo that consists of tens or hundreds of thousands of living cells. But, at this stage, i.e. within some 2-3-4-5 days after conception, a gigantic proportion of embryos are spontaneously aborted, without the pregnant woman even knowing it! In many women, first days of pregnancy fall on the time when the concentration of progesterone in their blood is low, and without the sufficient quantity of progesterone, the young emryo cannot implant well enough into the wall of the uterus. And without such an implantation it inevitably dies. So, is it that God wants some "babies" to live and other "babies" to die? Or should we, rather, say that the dividing blastocyst (the earliest stage of the life (or "life?") of the embryo) is still NOT a "baby? Then, where should the line be drawn? Is blastula a "baby," is gastrula a "baby?" And so on.

I must say that when I lived in the former Soviet Union (I left it for the USA in 1990, being already 32 years old), I fully "bought" the notion that early embryos aren't really living human beings. But then, one time, I read somewhere that our modern technology allows us to see embryos when they are between 10 and 14 weeks old, and at that stage they can already FROWN (on week 11-12) and SMILE (week 13-14). Now THAT is a powerful argument. We can debate endlessly on "what is life," trying to fit it into our imperfect language, terminology. But when we SEE an embryo who is frowning or smiling, that might forever change our personal view on abortion. It is one thing to terminate the division of cells in something that is just a piece of meat, and a quite different thing to end the existence of something that frowns or smiles at you!
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« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2011, 03:06:53 PM »

as far as the American society is concerned the debate rages on between those church or unchurched voices that oppose abortion based on at what point it can be called human, and those that support abortion based on the same argument which says until a certain point the human embryo can not be called a human person. there are other arguments as well but at the heart of it is remains the question'what is human?'

Yes. And it is very difficult or maybe even impossible to answer this question using only scientific reasoning. There is no clear definition of life, life in general, let alone "human life." Cells are called "basic units of life," but what about non-cellular entities - viruses, viroids, prions? And then, if we accept that it is always God's will that life begins at conception, why so many spontaneous abortions? A zygote begins to divide when it is still in the Fallopian tube, literally minutes after it is formed, and in just a few DAYS, it is allready an embryo that consists of tens or hundreds of thousands of living cells. But, at this stage, i.e. within some 2-3-4-5 days after conception, a gigantic proportion of embryos are spontaneously aborted, without the pregnant woman even knowing it! In many women, first days of pregnancy fall on the time when the concentration of progesterone in their blood is low, and without the sufficient quantity of progesterone, the young emryo cannot implant well enough into the wall of the uterus. And without such an implantation it inevitably dies. So, is it that God wants some "babies" to live and other "babies" to die? Or should we, rather, say that the dividing blastocyst (the earliest stage of the life (or "life?") of the embryo) is still NOT a "baby? Then, where should the line be drawn? Is blastula a "baby," is gastrula a "baby?" And so on.

I must say that when I lived in the former Soviet Union (I left it for the USA in 1990, being already 32 years old), I fully "bought" the notion that early embryos aren't really living human beings. But then, one time, I read somewhere that our modern technology allows us to see embryos when they are between 10 and 14 weeks old, and at that stage they can already FROWN (on week 11-12) and SMILE (week 13-14). Now THAT is a powerful argument. We can debate endlessly on "what is life," trying to fit it into our imperfect language, terminology. But when we SEE an embryo who is frowning or smiling, that might forever change our personal view on abortion. It is one thing to terminate the division of cells in something that is just a piece of meat, and a quite different thing to end the existence of something that frowns or smiles at you!


The ONLY good that has come this onset of ridiculous posts about abortion is your story.

I've been quite taken aback by some of the things you have written and, to the degree I understand them, interested in hearing more about your "clinical" opinion as well as your speculative opinion on topics like the beginning of life and the like.

I enjoy an intelligent voice ready to ask hard questions.

Thanks for the posts Heorhij.

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« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2011, 02:53:24 PM »

What is a pram ?

(slinking off to hide)

I think it is like a high school dance, but they spell it differently in England.  Something like that.
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« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2011, 02:56:46 PM »

as far as the American society is concerned the debate rages on between those church or unchurched voices that oppose abortion based on at what point it can be called human, and those that support abortion based on the same argument which says until a certain point the human embryo can not be called a human person. there are other arguments as well but at the heart of it is remains the question'what is human?'

Yes. And it is very difficult or maybe even impossible to answer this question using only scientific reasoning. There is no clear definition of life, life in general, let alone "human life." Cells are called "basic units of life," but what about non-cellular entities - viruses, viroids, prions? And then, if we accept that it is always God's will that life begins at conception, why so many spontaneous abortions? A zygote begins to divide when it is still in the Fallopian tube, literally minutes after it is formed, and in just a few DAYS, it is allready an embryo that consists of tens or hundreds of thousands of living cells. But, at this stage, i.e. within some 2-3-4-5 days after conception, a gigantic proportion of embryos are spontaneously aborted, without the pregnant woman even knowing it! In many women, first days of pregnancy fall on the time when the concentration of progesterone in their blood is low, and without the sufficient quantity of progesterone, the young emryo cannot implant well enough into the wall of the uterus. And without such an implantation it inevitably dies. So, is it that God wants some "babies" to live and other "babies" to die? Or should we, rather, say that the dividing blastocyst (the earliest stage of the life (or "life?") of the embryo) is still NOT a "baby? Then, where should the line be drawn? Is blastula a "baby," is gastrula a "baby?" And so on.

I must say that when I lived in the former Soviet Union (I left it for the USA in 1990, being already 32 years old), I fully "bought" the notion that early embryos aren't really living human beings. But then, one time, I read somewhere that our modern technology allows us to see embryos when they are between 10 and 14 weeks old, and at that stage they can already FROWN (on week 11-12) and SMILE (week 13-14). Now THAT is a powerful argument. We can debate endlessly on "what is life," trying to fit it into our imperfect language, terminology. But when we SEE an embryo who is frowning or smiling, that might forever change our personal view on abortion. It is one thing to terminate the division of cells in something that is just a piece of meat, and a quite different thing to end the existence of something that frowns or smiles at you!


The ONLY good that has come this onset of ridiculous posts about abortion is your story.

I've been quite taken aback by some of the things you have written and, to the degree I understand them, interested in hearing more about your "clinical" opinion as well as your speculative opinion on topics like the beginning of life and the like.

I enjoy an intelligent voice ready to ask hard questions.

Thanks for the posts Heorhij.

I second the sentiment.  Thank you, Heorhij.
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« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2011, 05:53:03 PM »

^^^Orthonorm and Fr. George: thank you both so much. It feels good to be appreciated. Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2011, 09:45:28 PM »

Evangelicals manipulate the emotions of people via youtube?

Shocker.
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« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2011, 12:13:44 AM »

Thank you Hiwot for the excellent comments!


Selam
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« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2011, 12:31:35 AM »

My hope is that something may be done to encourage more adoptions (therefore providing impetus to complete a pregnancy). Lord have mercy.
I agree.
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« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2011, 12:55:20 AM »


Selam Heorhij my brother, how was your weekend? mine was very hectic, I did not have the time to give a timely response to your interesting comments, however even though I am dead tired and just got home from a long day of work I thought I should respond before I hit the sack. I came back to see the thread moved and another thread with similar content being like a battle field, so this might be my last comment on this issue lol

So going back to our discussion:)
As far as I know, it is the one point of agreement in the scientific field and based on the scientific facts that the philosophical and theological fields that peruse this ethical issue also agree upon, that individual human life indeed starts at fertilization when the sperm enters the ovum and there starts the new sequence of DNA that is different from both the sperm and the ova but is unique to the newly fertilized ovum. This has been agreed upon. I personally by “hanging around” those who studied and teach human embryology have seen only one definition of the beginning of the human life and that is fertilization.  However it is what we mean by human that is the point of contention, Human for some means a Human person, a human that has personhood, whereas for others while the fertilized egg might be that of at the beginning stage of the human life in other words while  it is  indeed a human life that has started to develop, in order to qualify to be called a human Person it has to pass the standards of functionality and these standards of functionality are only achieved according to them  after a certain point of the fetus’s life and not before, for some among them that point of functionality is not achieved until the baby is born, therefore the human embryo does not qualify to have the same standard of human right that  are applicable to the adult  human person. this is not only the issue that has to do with abortion only rather it has to do with a host of issues that have to deal with the seemingly infinite possibilities that are inherent with the manipulation of the  human genome. The field of bioethics has tried to keep up with the accelerating leap of progress in the scientific field but as these things are dealing with human beings who have different views and interests the field itself is constantly being challenged to accommodate social human realities and scientific potential.
I think when you asked at what point of the development of the human embryo can we call it a baby, you meant at what point can we call it a person that is  the heart of the debate that exists, and as we both agree on the answer to that I see no reason to explain further. However if you have meant to question the humanity of the fetus from scientific point of view indeed the scientific answer would be yes what you are looking at in all its stages of development and with all the names we use to identify it under those stages of development is a human embryo and All things being equal that is if it has all the nutrients and conducive environment it requires for it to thrive it will indeed will be a fully developed human baby. Although it may be at its very venerable stage it is only a stage of development of the human species at its youngest age yet completely human nevertheless.
 
Although I understand the point you were making by mentioning the virus viroids and prions, science has a certain clear method of classification of  what is living and what is not that has been used for  more than a millennia , based on the Cell theory of course , the ability for metabolism, respond to stimuli, the ability to reproduce  and develop. Under that definition of life none of the above are alive. However  when we go outside that definition and mainly use the evolutionary definition of life, then  we can debate that viruses and viroids are alive while for prions the jury can be out even under that definition. Thus far the general credible scientific agreement has been that they are not alive, however I agree with you that those that debate that viruses are alive have an interesting point to make because of the very peculiar nature and behavior of viruses and viroids. While this is an interesting topic, the definition of cellular beings remains clear so for our purpose of defining life in the human life span development is relatively an easy and non ambiguous matter both from cell theory and evolutionary theory. As I have mentioned previously it is indeed the fullness of life as it is interpreted to include personhood or not is the topic of the debate that circles  around issues like abortion, cloning , embryonic vs. adult stem cell research, euthanasia, etc. the definition of personhood if agreed upon will direct which way the ethical essence of our society goes. In my understanding it has the domino effect of permeating our entire social anthropological historical economical, religious and political in short all aspects of our life and human civilization. For instance abortion does not only affect the baby  being aborted but the mother that is aborting the baby, the father, those who are participating in the abortion including but not limited to medical personnel, in all the aforementioned aspects of their lives one way or another.


Knowing fully that you and I agree on our convictions and are merely developing points inherent in these issues, I will continue to address the point you mentioned about the increased natural morality of the fertilized ovum before implantation. It is true that there are a high number of fertilized ovum that never make it into being a fully developed baby, we know there is a scientific explanation as to the reason why, you have mentioned few of them, and the argument of ethics is based on the initial premise that “all things being equal the full development of the human embryo will occur’’ however since you raised a theological question tide to these events let us see it from theological perspective. I would say is it not true that we are mortal from the very beginning? Is it not a miracle that the baby who is not even compatible with the mother’s immune system to which it is totally a foreign entity yet it survives by maintaining its individual buoyant world where conditions are set that will protect it from the attack of the mother’s own immunity? Could it be this that David was speaking of when he said

“For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! How great is the sum of them!” Psalm 139:13-17

yeah my ‘Geez’ version reads as  ‘thou has protected me in my mother’s womb.’ But ‘covered me in my mother’s womb’ of the KJV works in the same way also. It is not that God wills any one of us to die and the others to be immortal but mortality as we know it is the human condition we all share, our time of mortality is different among us, yet mortal we all are! This weakness of the body sickness and corruption has entered our lives with the fall of Adam. We cannot blame God for those that naturally fail to implant just as we cannot blame him for those who naturally die. It is when humans attempt to take life that they cannot give back nor do have the ultimate authority of, that we have ‘issues’ with. Thus the natural world works in its present order with sin corruption, sickness and death as part of its reality, the human life begins at conception yet might end naturally at any point after wards as a fertilized ovum, an implanted embryo, a developing fetus, a baby born, a child, a youth, an adult, or old person. so just as we do not need to give ‘excuse’ in behalf of God for the death of an adult with developmental terminologies that will minimize the personhood of the person or the loss we feel or the factuality of  the death, we do not need to use those developmental terminologies of human embryo to lessen that life mean to its continued existence, and what death means to it when it ceases to live and fully develop into the human baby all things being equal in order to avoid the perceived blame of God as their killer. The argument which as I have already mentioned is easily dealt with theologically speaking.


Those who deal with bioethical issues know the power of definitions and semantics to both expose and obscure facts. This is understood even by those whose interest it is to form public opinion; whether they are religious, economic, political etc. integrity to facts is not easily maintained. One of the admirable thing in the video that strike me was that the Jewish American person who is obviously anti abortion and using what he has learnt from what has lead to the atrocities committed to his ancestors , and knowing the individual ‘ Hitler’  as the primary leader of that atrocity, his message that even if he knew Hitler’s mother while pregnant  knowing what Hitler will do if born ,because of this integrity to the pro life cause he would not shot the mother nor kill Hitler while in the womb. This message he conveyed coming from a Jewish man, was a testament of hope for the cause of pro life movement, that there are people who can think beyond their personal gain, beyond their personal loss, and stand up for what is right at all given situation in life. I have seen some say that to call it a holocaust is to demean what happened to those certain class of people that suffered holocausts, I find this very ironic, it seemed to me that some needed to see all the aborted babies in one space in time with all their mutilated bodies discarded in some unknown grave before they realize the extent and gravity of the continuing human tragedy against a select class of human beings, it might even be because they have not yet recognized that those certain class of human beings , the unborn as human enough for them for their lives or deaths to mean anything, but then again they are entitled to their opinion as I am to mine. It’s a free world after all is it not? LOL


My dear brother I am glad you mentioned how powerful it is when one SEES what that embryo can do so we can relate to it by our own standards of experiencing life, smiling frowning, the hiccups , the protective moving away from intrusion, and to those who are interested in the in-depth understanding of what the human embryo is capable of doing to maintain its survival in the mother’s womb the its  incredible hormonal sabotage of the mother’s immune system, the training of itself how to suck that later will determine its ability to suckle, how curious it is to external stimuli, pain and pleasure, that it can be bored or excited, there is a lot to be in awe of , at various stages of human development. For some seeing this incredible wonder of life is enough to convince them of the preciousness of it, and that what we are today started in the fullness of what we were at the moment of conception. However for some it is necessary to see what the human embryo looks like at its horrific death, where all those we mentioned become overpowered by death unnaturally inflicted on them to understand that death is death at any stage of life, as life is life at any stage of existence. As I see their horrific death I feel that I owe it to them to look and SEE and acknowledge what they are ,who they are ,their existence and their death, if they can endure it and die in that horrific unnatural manner ,if all their history is that, I by CHOICE,  and ONLY by PERSONAL CHOICE  will honor them by not turning my eyes from the horror and pain that takes my breath away and leaves me with a visceral reaction each time,  and I let their suffering speak to me to tell me what I am capable of doing  and becoming. What we humans are capable of doing and becoming. But also the hope of what I am capable of stopping and becoming, what we humans are capable of stopping and becoming. Because indeed as Shakespeare has said through hamlet ‘to be or not to be that is the question!’ without the added speculation he goes into lol now as I have said above we are all different, and acknowledging that difference, will lead us to understand one another better and learn to agree to disagree on matters if not in a Christian manner with charity but at least in a civil manner.

If those who agree that abortion is indeed infanticide then it is the moral duty of all of them to engage in the active and timely work of stopping it from happening,, and this includes addressing all the probable issues that lead to the decision of Abortion, and from the religious and physiological point of view the appropriate help offered for those who have undergone abortion. This is one of the fundamental issues that go hand in hand with the entire attempt to formulate ethical standards and moral codes that guide the scientific community and society at large. It is not an Either OR situation , Both  as part of the solution must exist for this to work,  for instance : we cannot ignore the economic woes of those who are forced to make a decision to allow another mouth to feed into the already starving family and in the process that they all perish, there are many examples of issues that will lead to making the difficult decision of abortion and the way these issues are dealt with and the presenting and availability of  positive alternatives will balance the pro life movement enough to make it effective in accomplishing its mission of protection of human life under ethical values from conception to the natural death.

To conclude my brother, thank you for your thoughtful comments and I have learnt a lot from you in our discussion. Ethical values, of autonomy, beneficence, non-maleficense, justice, dignity, truthfulness and honesty, all these are values that are relevant to human persons.  However Before they can be used and applied to the unborn, to the terminally sick, to the old and incapacitated, to mentally altered etc... The question of personhood of the human need to be agreed upon. That remains the ethical dilemma of our time. Like you I as a Christian look at all these issues through the lens of my faith even while I genuinely consider the points raised from all sides. This issue like many human problem is a complicated issue , and I do not dare to think I have addressed even the tip of the ice berg so to speak, even from the point of realizing what questions are being asked let alone to answer them to the satisfaction of any. however seeing that we are all accountable for our actions before the Lord I can only pray the Lord give us the grace to heal and help heal all that have been harmed and continue to be harmed by all manner of human evil.


May the Peace of the Lord be with us all Amen.
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« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2011, 08:42:23 AM »


If those who agree that abortion is indeed infanticide then it is the moral duty of all of them to engage in the active and timely work of stopping it from happening,, and this includes addressing all the probable issues that lead to the decision of Abortion, and from the religious and physiological point of view the appropriate help offered for those who have undergone abortion. This is one of the fundamental issues that go hand in hand with the entire attempt to formulate ethical standards and moral codes that guide the scientific community and society at large. It is not an Either OR situation , Both  as part of the solution must exist for this to work,  for instance : we cannot ignore the economic woes of those who are forced to make a decision to allow another mouth to feed into the already starving family and in the process that they all perish, there are many examples of issues that will lead to making the difficult decision of abortion and the way these issues are dealt with and the presenting and availability of  positive alternatives will balance the pro life movement enough to make it effective in accomplishing its mission of protection of human life under ethical values from conception to the natural death.

To conclude my brother, thank you for your thoughtful comments and I have learnt a lot from you in our discussion. Ethical values, of autonomy, beneficence, non-maleficense, justice, dignity, truthfulness and honesty, all these are values that are relevant to human persons.  However Before they can be used and applied to the unborn, to the terminally sick, to the old and incapacitated, to mentally altered etc... The question of personhood of the human need to be agreed upon. That remains the ethical dilemma of our time. Like you I as a Christian look at all these issues through the lens of my faith even while I genuinely consider the points raised from all sides. This issue like many human problem is a complicated issue , and I do not dare to think I have addressed even the tip of the ice berg so to speak, even from the point of realizing what questions are being asked let alone to answer them to the satisfaction of any. however seeing that we are all accountable for our actions before the Lord I can only pray the Lord give us the grace to heal and help heal all that have been harmed and continue to be harmed by all manner of human evil.


May the Peace of the Lord be with us all Amen.

Hiwot

That was truly an amazing post, I learnt so much. Thank you.

And the part that I have put in bold, I could not agree more with.

Peace in Christ
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« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2011, 09:01:46 AM »


If those who agree that abortion is indeed infanticide then it is the moral duty of all of them to engage in the active and timely work of stopping it from happening,, and this includes addressing all the probable issues that lead to the decision of Abortion, and from the religious and physiological point of view the appropriate help offered for those who have undergone abortion. This is one of the fundamental issues that go hand in hand with the entire attempt to formulate ethical standards and moral codes that guide the scientific community and society at large. It is not an Either OR situation , Both  as part of the solution must exist for this to work,  for instance : we cannot ignore the economic woes of those who are forced to make a decision to allow another mouth to feed into the already starving family and in the process that they all perish, there are many examples of issues that will lead to making the difficult decision of abortion and the way these issues are dealt with and the presenting and availability of  positive alternatives will balance the pro life movement enough to make it effective in accomplishing its mission of protection of human life under ethical values from conception to the natural death.

To conclude my brother, thank you for your thoughtful comments and I have learnt a lot from you in our discussion. Ethical values, of autonomy, beneficence, non-maleficense, justice, dignity, truthfulness and honesty, all these are values that are relevant to human persons.  However Before they can be used and applied to the unborn, to the terminally sick, to the old and incapacitated, to mentally altered etc... The question of personhood of the human need to be agreed upon. That remains the ethical dilemma of our time. Like you I as a Christian look at all these issues through the lens of my faith even while I genuinely consider the points raised from all sides. This issue like many human problem is a complicated issue , and I do not dare to think I have addressed even the tip of the ice berg so to speak, even from the point of realizing what questions are being asked let alone to answer them to the satisfaction of any. however seeing that we are all accountable for our actions before the Lord I can only pray the Lord give us the grace to heal and help heal all that have been harmed and continue to be harmed by all manner of human evil.


May the Peace of the Lord be with us all Amen.

Hiwot

That was truly an amazing post, I learnt so much. Thank you.

And the part that I have put in bold, I could not agree more with.

Peace in Christ



Amen! Wonderful post Hiwot! You are a valuable contributor to this forum. So glad you are here!  Smiley


Selam
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« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2011, 06:08:50 PM »

I know most of you on here are American so I think this will be of interest to you.

http://www.nyc41percent.com/

This is an interactive map of New York separated by zip code, it gives you the abortion statistics for each zip code by hovering the mouse over the region.

Take a look and see what you think



If you give me a phone registry of all the women who have had abortions, should I be moved somehow?

What is your problem?

why do you act like a child having a tantrum throwing toys out of a pram?

I share for those that are interested ! if you are not interested then don't read.

Grow up with your stupid comments will you orthonorm.

My problem? Do you really want to know? It doesn't have anything to do with you or your vacuous posts.

But I do like point out when people are being sanctimonious and self-righteous.

You and Gebre have been really helpful in educating us unfeeling masses about abortion with your clever uses of metaphor and internet 2.1.

We thank you from the bottom of our much more shallow than yours hearts.

Orthonorm--You are not being fair. This is a very tragic and sad issue for many folks and it hurts them (if you can understand that) to have you make fun of the subject or their views.
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« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2011, 08:05:36 PM »

I know most of you on here are American so I think this will be of interest to you.

http://www.nyc41percent.com/

This is an interactive map of New York separated by zip code, it gives you the abortion statistics for each zip code by hovering the mouse over the region.

Take a look and see what you think



If you give me a phone registry of all the women who have had abortions, should I be moved somehow?

What is your problem?

why do you act like a child having a tantrum throwing toys out of a pram?

I share for those that are interested ! if you are not interested then don't read.

Grow up with your stupid comments will you orthonorm.

My problem? Do you really want to know? It doesn't have anything to do with you or your vacuous posts.

But I do like point out when people are being sanctimonious and self-righteous.

You and Gebre have been really helpful in educating us unfeeling masses about abortion with your clever uses of metaphor and internet 2.1.

We thank you from the bottom of our much more shallow than yours hearts.

Orthonorm--You are not being fair. This is a very tragic and sad issue for many folks and it hurts them (if you can understand that) to have you make fun of the subject or their views.

Link?

What is "fair"?

How do you know who gets hurt by what? People have already made it clear HERE they have been hurt by these posts. The post YOU are defending.

What is the "subject" of their posts?

And where have I "made fun" of it?

You don't like me, OK. But at least in your posts taking me to task, get your facts straight.

Then again there really weren't any facts there, just general unsubstantiated opinions.

I think it has been made VERY clear in these threads more than a FEW . . . more than including a Priest even sorta agrees with me.

I ain't saying that makes me right since the tide seems to have gone my way: these threads are tactless at best.

So if you are going to go after me . . . go after them as well.

Be consistent. But that would cause to have to "rebuke" those you don't dislike.

Not fun.

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