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Author Topic: What happens in Old Calendar holy sites on New Calendar Feast Days?  (Read 946 times) Average Rating: 0
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William
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« on: September 28, 2011, 06:59:16 PM »

Let's use the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem as an example. It's under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, an Old Calendar Jurisdiction. What happens on the New Calendar Christmas? Is some New Calendar jurisdiction allowed to celebrate Christmas in the Church?
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2011, 08:13:06 PM »

Let's use the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem as an example. It's under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, an Old Calendar Jurisdiction. What happens on the New Calendar Christmas? Is some New Calendar jurisdiction allowed to celebrate Christmas in the Church?
I dunno, but I can't imagine a New Calendar church walking in and wanting to celebrate nativity there. It wouldn't seem appropriate to "waltz" for lack of a better term to another jurisdiction and not celebrate it when they do. At least in my mind. I guess it would be the whole "when in Rome" thing. Smiley I know that's probably not very helpful.

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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2011, 08:18:26 PM »

I suppose, but I figure it wouldn't exactly be just "waltzing" in. Someone with the Patriarch of Constantinople, for example, could call and ask the Patriarch of Jerusalem's permission to celebrate Christmas in the Church in which Christmas occurred.
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2011, 08:46:32 PM »

Let's use the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem as an example. It's under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, an Old Calendar Jurisdiction. What happens on the New Calendar Christmas? Is some New Calendar jurisdiction allowed to celebrate Christmas in the Church?
I was at the Church of the Nativity for Armenian Christmas (celebrated there on January 19th), and for the Greeks and Catholics, it was the same schedule as usual.  We Armenians were out of the Grotto at like 2AM, and the Greeks were immediately in there for their mandated time. 

Because the various communities have separate altars and chapels, the only real problems are for the shared sites, which are mandated by the Status Quo anyway.  For the most part, the Status Quo has things scheduled so precisely that differences in calendar feasts just plug into the time you're allotted, and the other communities will just stand around suspiciously to make sure no one oversteps their boundaries or their time. 
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2011, 08:54:32 PM »

I wonder if one of the reasons why the Jerusalem Patriarchate stays on the Old Calendar is so that it doesn't have to duke it out with the Catholics for shared spaces on feast days.
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2011, 09:09:53 PM »

I suppose, but I figure it wouldn't exactly be just "waltzing" in. Someone with the Patriarch of Constantinople, for example, could call and ask the Patriarch of Jerusalem's permission to celebrate Christmas in the Church in which Christmas occurred.
I just can't see them doing that. It wouldn't seem like something they would do. If they wanted to celebrate the feast, why couldn't they celebrate it with the Old Calendar faithful in their jurisdiction? Wink

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Andrew
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2011, 03:36:21 AM »

The visiting HIerarchs celebrate with the hosts according to hosts' rite, calendar, usage, language and whatever.


I wonder if one of the reasons why the Jerusalem Patriarchate stays on the Old Calendar is so that it doesn't have to duke it out with the Catholics for shared spaces on feast days.

I was told that was the main reason.
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2011, 06:52:21 AM »

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Resurrection of Christ, functions under an agreement dating back to the Ottoman days, that regulates which denomination will celebrate where and when.  I imagine the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem also probably has a similar agreement, but I'm only guessing about that.

In fact, as an inquiry above suspects, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem officially wrote to the Pan-Orthodox Congress of 1923 hosted by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, advising that it could not consider adopting the New Calendar because of the effect it would have on its agreement with the Roman Catholics, the Armenian Apostolic Church, etc.
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2011, 06:18:51 PM »

Yes, the Nativity complex (There are two Churches, The Byzantine Church of the Nativity and the Latin Church of St. Catherine, plus the Grotto) is governed by the same status quo that governs the Church of the Resurrection.
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2011, 06:14:31 AM »

I wonder if one of the reasons why the Jerusalem Patriarchate stays on the Old Calendar is so that it doesn't have to duke it out with the Catholics for shared spaces on feast days.
I think the Patriarchate of Jerusalem observes the traditional Julian Orthodox calendar along with the Russian, Serbian and Georgian Churches precisely because it is the Church Calendar.  The New Calendar 'Revised Julian' is at best an innovation and like the monasteries of Mt Athos, one would expect to see the highest standards of Orthodoxy maintained in the Holy Land.
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2011, 08:26:50 AM »

I wonder if one of the reasons why the Jerusalem Patriarchate stays on the Old Calendar is so that it doesn't have to duke it out with the Catholics for shared spaces on feast days.
I think the Patriarchate of Jerusalem observes the traditional Julian Orthodox calendar along with the Russian, Serbian and Georgian Churches precisely because it is the Church Calendar.  The New Calendar 'Revised Julian' is at best an innovation and like the monasteries of Mt Athos, one would expect to see the highest standards of Orthodoxy maintained in the Holy Land.

Oh brother....I would hate to interject a bit of 'realpolitik', but the three party agreement regarding the sharing of the Holy Sites would be tough to handle if Jerusalem were RJK. The various monks fight enough as it is......Besides, with Greece and much of Western Europe and the America's on the RJK, it gives  pilgrims with cash a chance to 'double dip' -oops- 'real' world in the way again.... Wink
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« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2011, 01:06:36 PM »

I don't know this is what happened in 2008 there when they try to get together http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgiPJttZmnI&feature=related
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