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Author Topic: For Orthonorm - Fatwa Against Pokémon Issued in Saudi Arabia - serious discussion  (Read 4234 times) Average Rating: 0
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2011, 08:37:57 PM »

Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery,
Have you ever read Harry Potter?


No. Nor have I played with Ouija boards, visited fortune tellers, tried heroin, or read Lady Chatterley's Lover. But I've certainly done plenty of other things that I wish I hadn't. I don't need to analyze the contents of feces to know that it's feces. (Forgive my bluntness.)



Selam



Profanity edited out and replaced with something more appropriate  -PtA

You've been here long enough to know that we don't tolerate such gross profanities on the public boards. You are therefore receiving this warning to last for the next week. If you think this action unfair, please feel free to appeal it via private message to Fr. George.

- PeterTheAleut


Sorry for the profanity. I've read much more vulgar stuff than that on this forum. I think my record of clean speech here has been pretty good. But hey, rules are rules, and ignorance of the law is no excuse. Please accept my apologies.


Selam
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« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2011, 11:34:59 PM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   



Selam
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« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2011, 12:30:16 AM »

How is it being fundamentalist to declare you ought to read Harry Potter before condemning it?  Perhaps I should condemn your wife without meeting her?  Say she has a horrible personality?  Should I do that without meeting her?  Would it make a difference if someone told me that she is a horrible person and has a terrible personality? 

You don't mind your children reading Chronicles of Narnia, a book that has massive amounts of sorcery, but you denounce Harry Potter without ever having cracked it open.  J.K. Rowling says she is a Christian, and many, many people who actually did read Harry Potter she a lot of Christian imagery - including Presbytera Frederica Matthews-Green.  I have read the books and I can guarantee you that the magic in Harry Potter is no worse than that in the Chronicles of Narnia or Lord of the Rings.  The magic in Harry Potter is not people calling upon pagan gods or goddesses, nor is it calling upon demons or spirits, to perform tasks.  Rather, magic is considered an art form, almost a science, by Hogwarts - it is a subject to teach in school, not a religious or spiritual thing. 

I think you ignorant not because you prohibit your children from reading Harry Potter; I think you ignorant because you condemn something you know nothing about.
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« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2011, 12:50:10 AM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 12:52:58 AM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2011, 01:08:04 AM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself. Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.


Selam
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:09:46 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2011, 01:30:59 AM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

Selam


Speaking of objectivity, if you haven't read the books, how can your own comments be objective? Such comments could have no proportion in the first case as they are based in ignorance.
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« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2011, 01:33:52 AM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself. Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.


Selam


Gebre, why then do you tell "this thread" "I can't stop others from raising their children."  If I am putting words in your mouth, then the sentence, "I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose." is unnecessary.  I only replied that "no one is stopping you," but since you accuse me of putting words in your mouth, then I'm sorry for making an assumption out of such empty and vain words of yours.

Oh and what about, "But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon. The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  Again, I wonder why you think the people in this thread who criticize your criticism of Harry Potter "doesn't believe in free speech" when clearly you're free to speak here.  But then again, my dear brother, if I am putting words in your mouth, then I apologize once again for criticizing your empty and vain words as well.  Consider the post before this one equally empty and vain.

But I advise anyone in this thread whoever has dementia from what they write online should go seek a physician immediately before someone inadvertently puts your own vomit back in your own mouth.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:35:32 AM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2011, 01:34:49 AM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

Selam


Speaking of objectivity, if you haven't read the books, how can your own comments be objective? Such comments could have no proportion in the first case as they are based in ignorance.


Have you ever played with a Ouija board? Unless you have, then you cannot objectively criticize playing with Ouija boards.


Selam
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« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2011, 01:37:22 AM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

Selam


Speaking of objectivity, if you haven't read the books, how can your own comments be objective? Such comments could have no proportion in the first case as they are based in ignorance.


Have you ever played with a Ouija board? Unless you have, then you cannot objectively criticize playing with Ouija boards.


Selam


You believe the two equate?
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« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2011, 01:43:57 AM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself.
Advice you should try following some time. Mina put no words into your mouth, and you are acting irrationally.

Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion.
I read your comments with an objective mind, and I still thought you blew things out of proportion. No rational person I know judges a book as s**t--yes, that's the exact word you used for it before a moderator came and removed the profanity--without ever having read it.

What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.
The only one here showing a visceral, emotional, illogical reaction to a differing opinion is you. I just said that you would do well to not judge a book before you read it, and others merely repeated what I said but in their own words.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.
Especially the one you're fighting.
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2011, 01:45:13 AM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself. Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.


Selam


Gebre, why then do you tell "this thread" "I can't stop others from raising their children."  If I am putting words in your mouth, then the sentence, "I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose." is unnecessary.  I only replied that "no one is stopping you," but since you accuse me of putting words in your mouth, then I'm sorry for making an assumption out of such empty and vain words of yours.

Oh and what about, "But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon. The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  Again, I wonder why you think the people in this thread who criticize your criticism of Harry Potter "doesn't believe in free speech" when clearly you're free to speak here.  But then again, my dear brother, if I am putting words in your mouth, then I apologize once again for criticizing your empty and vain words as well.  Consider the post before this one equally empty and vain.

But I advise anyone in this thread whoever has dementia from what they write online should go seek a physician immediately before someone inadvertently puts your own vomit back in your own mouth.


It's obvious that you either do not understand my clear words, or you deliberately choose to infuse them with meaning that they do not convey. You seem like an intelligent fellow, so I doubt that you are actually so daft as to not understand my words and their actual meaning. So, I can only conclude that you choose to misconstrue them in order to build your little straw man against which you can conveniently rail. That is unfortunate, because I really do think that you have the intellectual capacity to discuss the issue reasonably without resorting to such cheap and disingeneuous rhetoric and petty sniping. Now, if you want to discuss why you think Harry Potter is worth reading, then I'll be glad to listen. But I am no longer interested in your insults. Check your tone brother. I may be a pacifist, but I'm not a ... (no, I better not say that; I've already been warned once).


Selam
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Selam, +GMK+
Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2011, 01:47:29 AM »

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself.
Advice you should try following some time. Mina put no words into your mouth, and you are acting irrationally.

Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion.
I read your comments with an objective mind, and I still thought you blew things out of proportion. No rational person I know judges a book as s**t--yes, that's the exact word you used for it before a moderator came and removed the profanity--without ever having read it.

What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.
The only one here showing a visceral, emotional, illogical reaction to a differing opinion is you. I just said that you would do well to not judge a book before you read it, and others merely repeated what I said but in their own words.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.
Especially the one you're fighting.


Have fun Peter. I've been sucked into this foolishness enough as it is.


Selam
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« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2011, 01:47:42 AM »

How is it being fundamentalist to declare you ought to read Harry Potter before condemning it?  Perhaps I should condemn your wife without meeting her?  Say she has a horrible personality?  Should I do that without meeting her?  Would it make a difference if someone told me that she is a horrible person and has a terrible personality? 

You don't mind your children reading Chronicles of Narnia, a book that has massive amounts of sorcery, but you denounce Harry Potter without ever having cracked it open.  J.K. Rowling says she is a Christian, and many, many people who actually did read Harry Potter she a lot of Christian imagery - including Presbytera Frederica Matthews-Green.  I have read the books and I can guarantee you that the magic in Harry Potter is no worse than that in the Chronicles of Narnia or Lord of the Rings.  The magic in Harry Potter is not people calling upon pagan gods or goddesses, nor is it calling upon demons or spirits, to perform tasks.  Rather, magic is considered an art form, almost a science, by Hogwarts - it is a subject to teach in school, not a religious or spiritual thing. 

I think you ignorant not because you prohibit your children from reading Harry Potter; I think you ignorant because you condemn something you know nothing about.
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« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2011, 01:48:14 AM »

Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.
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« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2011, 01:51:34 AM »

Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.

But he could hardly know that about Harry Potter as he hasn't read it. (Or am I one of the demented in suggesting such a thing?  Undecided I have a headache, now!)  laugh
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« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2011, 01:54:50 AM »

Gebre, I actually find it amusing that you forget that it was you who wrote post number 96, and I repeated it.  Maybe you should read that post again and then think about what you're writing and how it looks to others.  I stand by what I wrote, and if you feel that's offensive, then that is your own words offending you.

But since you love reading the Chronicles of Narnia, then I'm sure you're going to like Harry Potter as well.  Is not the Chronicles of Narnia also about a magical place with fantastical creatures, where people use magic, and where a lion magically rises from the dead because "he didn't deserve it?"  Oh, I'm sorry, I should say, "He" because apparently our icons are filled with Christ depicted as a lion.
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« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2011, 02:05:20 AM »

Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter. And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft. But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists.  

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards. I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it". There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.



Selam
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« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2011, 02:11:30 AM »

Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery.

Perhaps you could give us some examples of how Harry Potter glorifies sorcery.
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« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2011, 02:14:50 AM »

Gebre, the reason you are an ignorant person is that you claim Harry Potter glorifies sorcery and the Chronicles of Narnia do not - without ever having read Harry Potter.

This is essentially the definition of an ignorant person.
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« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2011, 02:18:25 AM »

Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter. And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft. But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists. 

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards. I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it". There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.



Selam


But magic is related with sorcery Gebre.  Sorcery is the practice of magic.  Both Narnia and Potter use sorcery, whether it be good or bad sorcery.  Aslan and Harry Potter used sorcery; the white witch and Voldemort used sorcery.

When Sorcery was a religion, it deserves condemnation, and at the time of the Church fathers and the authors of the Scriptures, there were real sorcerers.

But today, we have children playing make believe that they are pirates fighting each other, or robots moving towards a target, or (surprise surprise) throwing snowballs making believe they're magical fireballs.  If children grow up thinking that's real, then something is wrong with their brains.  But fantasy and make believe is a healthy part of growing up and children are intelligent enough that if anything, such things are really mocked than believed in.
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« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2011, 02:19:06 AM »

Gebre, the reason you are an ignorant person is that you claim Harry Potter glorifies sorcery and the Chronicles of Narnia do not - without ever having read Harry Potter.

This is essentially the definition of an ignorant person.


Yes, I confess that I am ignorant about Harry Potter. But I know enough to choose to remain ignorant about Harry Potter, just as I know enough to remain ignorant about whatever went on "Behind the Green Door". I would rather be ignorant than a fool.



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« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2011, 02:29:13 AM »

Gebre, the reason you are an ignorant person is that you claim Harry Potter glorifies sorcery and the Chronicles of Narnia do not - without ever having read Harry Potter.

This is essentially the definition of an ignorant person.


Yes, I confess that I am ignorant about Harry Potter. But I know enough to choose to remain ignorant about Harry Potter, just as I know enough to remain ignorant about whatever went on "Behind the Green Door". I would rather be ignorant than a fool.



Selam


A fool would say something like "I am ignorant about x.  However, I enjoy being ignorant about x while claiming to know it is evil."  I believe I just called you a fool.
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« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2011, 02:31:09 AM »

Gebre,

There are people out there just like you, except much more consistent:

http://www.heavenisopen.com/newsletter/narnia2.html
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« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2011, 02:34:29 AM »

Lewis gets this glorifying sorcery accusation, too. What I do find interesting is that Christian authors like Lewis and Rowling would be accused of glorifying sorcery all over the internet, while Philip Pullman, who is vocally anti-God, seems to have flown in under the radar and gets hardly a mention. The irony.
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« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2011, 02:35:29 AM »

Gebre,

There are people out there just like you, except much more consistent:

http://www.heavenisopen.com/newsletter/narnia2.html

Oh my goodness, I was just reading that!  laugh
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« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2011, 02:42:40 AM »

Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter.
But how are you qualified to have an opinion about a book you've never read? I've never read Harry Potter myself, but I at least consider myself unqualified to have an opinion about whether Harry Potter glorifies sorcery or not.

And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft.
And how do you know that Harry Potter glorifies witchcraft?

But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists.
I won't either, as long as they've actually read the books and know why they won't let their kids read them.

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards.
The fact that you mentioned Harry Potter in the same sentence with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, heroin, and Lady Chatterley's Lover without any previous context, without any knowledge yet as to why I asked whether you had actually read Harry Potter, and with language that calls all those "vices" s**t, indicates very clearly that you equate the reading of Harry Potter with the use of Ouija boards.

I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it".
You were the first to mention that "logical absurdity". Since I had not yet explained why I asked if you had read Harry Potter, the very question that brought up your list of vices, I can only state that you assumed the reason and projected it onto my question.

There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.
Real caution also demands that you investigate those things that cannot be so easily discerned before you judge them as demonic. Remember the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the Prince of demons?

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.
But when you equate Harry Potter with a pile of dung (rhetoric out of which you tried to weasel yourself later on the thread) without ever having read it, then I see nothing to respect in your rationale for not letting your kids read Harry Potter.
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« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2011, 03:16:32 AM »

An interesting thing with this Harry Potter topic...

I have the feeling that renaming the first book in the series with the title of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" for the American market has to have been a brilliant marketing ploy. In Britain, where it came out as "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" and not anywhere near as provocative, there wasn't a knee-jerl reaction to the books. It was only after the publishing of the first book in America that was there a response from Fundamentalists. In the title alone people were naturally going to see evil in epic proportions and the boosts to sales following the subsequent jihadic furore must have been tremendous. The overreaction certainly made J.K. a wealthy woman.

Not really on topic, I know - but what of this thread has been?  angel  laugh
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« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2011, 04:10:56 AM »

Gebre, the reason you are an ignorant person is that you claim Harry Potter glorifies sorcery and the Chronicles of Narnia do not - without ever having read Harry Potter.

This is essentially the definition of an ignorant person.


Yes, I confess that I am ignorant about Harry Potter. But I know enough to choose to remain ignorant about Harry Potter, just as I know enough to remain ignorant about whatever went on "Behind the Green Door". I would rather be ignorant than a fool.



Selam


A fool would say something like "I am ignorant about x.  However, I enjoy being ignorant about x while claiming to know it is evil."  I believe I just called you a fool.



I accept the compliment. Pray that I would be worthy of it.


Selam
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« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2011, 04:15:49 AM »

Gebre,

There are people out there just like you, except much more consistent:

http://www.heavenisopen.com/newsletter/narnia2.html


Well if you want to continue this juvinile game, then fine. There are also people out there just like you, only much more consistent:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/02/hustlers_larry_flynt_defends_first_amendment_in_unc_speech


Selam
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« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2011, 04:20:57 AM »

I was not calling you a Fool for Christ - that is an honor.  I was merely calling you a fool.
 40 days of warning for such a blatant ad hominem - MK.
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« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2011, 04:24:59 AM »

Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter.
But how are you qualified to have an opinion about a book you've never read? I've never read Harry Potter myself, but I at least consider myself unqualified to have an opinion about whether Harry Potter glorifies sorcery or not.

And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft.
And how do you know that Harry Potter glorifies witchcraft?

But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists.
I won't either, as long as they've actually read the books and know why they won't let their kids read them.

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards.
The fact that you mentioned Harry Potter in the same sentence with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, heroin, and Lady Chatterley's Lover without any previous context, without any knowledge yet as to why I asked whether you had actually read Harry Potter, and with language that calls all those "vices" s**t, indicates very clearly that you equate the reading of Harry Potter with the use of Ouija boards.

I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it".
You were the first to mention that "logical absurdity". Since I had not yet explained why I asked if you had read Harry Potter, the very question that brought up your list of vices, I can only state that you assumed the reason and projected it onto my question.

There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.
Real caution also demands that you investigate those things that cannot be so easily discerned before you judge them as demonic. Remember the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the Prince of demons?

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.
But when you equate Harry Potter with a pile of dung (rhetoric out of which you tried to weasel yourself later on the thread) without ever having read it, then I see nothing to respect in your rationale for not letting your kids read Harry Potter.


If you want to have a rationale and productive discussion Peter, then stop selectively quoting me out of context. For example, you completely ignored this statement of mine: "If others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter." Do you disagree with this? If not, then why not respect the fact that we can have an honest disagreement about the issue?  But you and some others zealously insist that I must read Harry Potter in order to form an opinion. So gosh, whose acting like the fundamentalist here?


Selam
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« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2011, 04:27:26 AM »

I was not calling you a Fool for Christ - that is an honor.  I was merely calling you a fool.

Ungracious remark deleted. Forgive me.


Selam



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« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2011, 04:39:06 AM »

Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter.
But how are you qualified to have an opinion about a book you've never read? I've never read Harry Potter myself, but I at least consider myself unqualified to have an opinion about whether Harry Potter glorifies sorcery or not.

And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft.
And how do you know that Harry Potter glorifies witchcraft?

But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists.
I won't either, as long as they've actually read the books and know why they won't let their kids read them.

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards.
The fact that you mentioned Harry Potter in the same sentence with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, heroin, and Lady Chatterley's Lover without any previous context, without any knowledge yet as to why I asked whether you had actually read Harry Potter, and with language that calls all those "vices" s**t, indicates very clearly that you equate the reading of Harry Potter with the use of Ouija boards.

I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it".
You were the first to mention that "logical absurdity". Since I had not yet explained why I asked if you had read Harry Potter, the very question that brought up your list of vices, I can only state that you assumed the reason and projected it onto my question.

There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.
Real caution also demands that you investigate those things that cannot be so easily discerned before you judge them as demonic. Remember the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the Prince of demons?

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.
But when you equate Harry Potter with a pile of dung (rhetoric out of which you tried to weasel yourself later on the thread) without ever having read it, then I see nothing to respect in your rationale for not letting your kids read Harry Potter.


If you want to have a rationale and productive discussion Peter, then stop selectively quoting me out of context. For example, you completely ignored this statement of mine: "If others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter." Do you disagree with this? If not, then why not respect the fact that we can have an honest disagreement about the issue?
This is not an honest disagreement, Gebre, for an honest disagreement requires that you first understand what we're disagreeing over. You don't. We're not arguing over whether Harry Potter glorifies sorcery; we're arguing over whether you're even qualified to have that opinion about a book you've never read.

But you and some others zealously insist that I must read Harry Potter in order to form an opinion.
Yes, that is true.

So gosh, whose acting like the fundamentalist here?
Please be careful to know with whom you're arguing so you can separate my rhetoric from his. I never accused you of acting like a fundamentalist--someone else did--so your implication that I'm acting like a hypocrite is off the mark.
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« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2011, 04:44:05 AM »

I'd like to leave on a serious note:

Spiritual discernment is a serious matter. The world, the flesh, and the devil cloud our judgment and make it difficult to recognize spiritual pitfalls and demonic traps. The sins and deceptions to which I have fallen prey have been much worse than Harry Potter novels or Pokemon cards. So, I must be vigilant in my own life to discern truth from falsehood, light from darkness, and good from evil. As Orthodox Christians, we should encourage one another and caution one another in love without judgment or condemnation. This is not easy, for usually when we try to deter others from things which we personally deem to be problematic, we will be ridiculed and condemned as judgmental. So we have to try to be loving and gracious in how we offer our opinions. And there is no doubt that I repeatedly FAIL to always be loving and gracious in how I convey my own views and beliefs.

I stand firmly behind my convictions on the issue at hand; however, I apologize for being profane, contentious, and arrogant in this discussion.

I don't think there is anything more productive I can add to this thread than that.

Pray for me, a sinner.


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« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2011, 05:23:15 AM »

Fantasy in fiction, in addition to inspiring the imagination of young readers, works as a sort of extended metaphor for social phenomena—technology, commerce, emotional connections, etc. The unreal is tool in the storyteller's toolbox to express his or her thoughts about the real world. The "magic/sorcery" in most fantasy novels and stories works a heck of a lot more like technology does (e.g., there's generally a law of dosage, a notion of limited energy, engineering limitations) than real world "occult" practices do. This is certainly the case in Harry Potter: magic is a stand-in for consumer culture and the British class system more than anything else.
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« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2011, 09:18:04 AM »

Gebre,

There are people out there just like you, except much more consistent:

http://www.heavenisopen.com/newsletter/narnia2.html

Well if you want to continue this juvenile game, then fine. There are also people out there just like you, only much more consistent:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/02/hustlers_larry_flynt_defends_first_amendment_in_unc_speech


Selam



 Roll Eyes

Right to be left alone?  Free speech?  This sounds so familiar.  Where have I read this before?

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon. 

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   



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And honestly this wasn't a game.  I honedtly compared you to someone who abhors literature that "glorifies sorcery"; the only difference he doesn't pretend Narnia doesn't.  I thought that might have been clear enough.  But you unnecessarily turned it into a game.  And if I'm playing a juvenile game, what does that make you in engaging in it?
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« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2011, 10:32:57 AM »

I'd like to leave on a serious note:

Spiritual discernment is a serious matter. The world, the flesh, and the devil cloud our judgment and make it difficult to recognize spiritual pitfalls and demonic traps. The sins and deceptions to which I have fallen prey have been much worse than Harry Potter novels or Pokemon cards. So, I must be vigilant in my own life to discern truth from falsehood, light from darkness, and good from evil. As Orthodox Christians, we should encourage one another and caution one another in love without judgment or condemnation. This is not easy, for usually when we try to deter others from things which we personally deem to be problematic, we will be ridiculed and condemned as judgmental. So we have to try to be loving and gracious in how we offer our opinions. And there is no doubt that I repeatedly FAIL to always be loving and gracious in how I convey my own views and beliefs.

I stand firmly behind my convictions on the issue at hand; however, I apologize for being profane, contentious, and arrogant in this discussion.

I don't think there is anything more productive I can add to this thread than that.

Pray for me, a sinner.


Selam
Thank you for this. I have been watching this thread since it started and find it sad that people who call themselves Orthodox cannot accept the fact that someone might disagree with Harry Potter or Pokemon. Having been immersed in both myself in my childhood, the main thing that affected me was wasting my time in a fantasy land when I could have done far more productive things. I certainly enjoyed them but my time and imagination would have been better spent elsewhere. I know where you're coming from Gebre. We have to be more discerning of these things and I see nothing wrong with doing so. Maybe one day on OC.net we can have a discussion without crucifying the opposing side. Maybe one day.

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« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2011, 10:36:57 AM »

Weird. Might be a glitch, but this thread has more posts than views.
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« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2011, 10:39:46 AM »

They split the thread. No one is viewing the serious discussion, but we're all posting rabidly about which version of Pokemon is better in the stupid thread.

ETA: J/k. To stay on topic, I agree that the bad thing about these fads is wasting time that could be used for other activities. That's where my mother came in. She limited my video game playing but never banned Pokemon outright. I think it's a good balance.
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« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2011, 10:43:14 AM »

They split the thread. No one is viewing the serious discussion, but we're all posting rabidly about which version of Pokemon is better in the stupid thread.

ETA: J/k. To stay on topic, I agree that the bad thing about these fads is wasting time that could be used for other activities. That's where my mother came in. She limited my video game playing but never banned Pokemon outright. I think it's a good balance.

Oh. I'll have to watch in future where threads get split to see how it affect the post / view ratio.

Maybe if we keep talking about this, it will get split again.

All I know is that HP and Pokemon both huge time wasters for a kid or an adult *shudder*. But everyone wastes their time one way or another.
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« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2011, 11:22:09 AM »

What about related things like Magic: The Gathering (which I love but is admittedly, more overt), Yu-Gi-Oh!, D&D, MMORPG's etc?

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« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2011, 11:35:26 AM »

To be quite honest, I think that this thread is the banter and all serious conversation (Pokemon and reminiscing about the '90's) was left on the other thread.

What is anyone gaining from this?  Gebre, you really can't argue against the quality of Harry Potter having not watching it.  You do have the right to say it looks stupid and you aren't going to watch it.  I do the same and I am sure everyone else has.  I'm not going to watch Brokeback Mountain because it looks pretty weak.  People have told me it was a good story with plenty of emotional content, but I'd just as soon remember Heath Ledger as the Joker.  But in the end this is pre-judging something and thus prejudice.  Which is ok and all, prejudice is the most natural thing we can do after eating and fornicating.

And y'all probably ain't going to convince him to watch HP by calling him a fool or ignorant.  Looks like a few of you were trying to say why Harry Potter is a ripping yarn.  I think this is the better approach.  All the "you don't even know" is starting to sound a bit too John Rambo for me.
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« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2011, 11:45:16 AM »


Thank you for this. I have been watching this thread since it started and find it sad that people who call themselves Orthodox cannot accept the fact that someone might disagree with Harry Potter or Pokemon. Having been immersed in both myself in my childhood, the main thing that affected me was wasting my time in a fantasy land when I could have done far more productive things. I certainly enjoyed them but my time and imagination would have been better spent elsewhere.

I'm sorry to hear that your involvement in entertainments crowded out the more productive things you could have been doing. It certainly happens, regardless of what people choose to pursue—some people waste their time with sports, with intellectual pursuits, etc.

I actually work as an editor in the field of science fiction and fantasy, and we have some pretty clear demographic information on our readership. In the US, at least, SF/F adult readers are more likely to have graduate education than readers of other sorts of popular fiction (e.g., crime, romance, "mainstream") and non-readers, more likely to be productively employed—even during this ongoing economic crisis—than other readers and non-readers, and more likely to be working in a technically skilled position (e.g., computers, engineering, healthcare). Juvenile and young adult readers are more likely to be in the top quintile of grades for both humanities and science/math subjects than kids whose main pursuits are sports or music/performance.

Like I said, I'm sorry you found Pokemon and Harry Potter to be such a drain on your time, but most people not only handle it just fine, an argument can be made that exposure to math, history, languages, and abstract concepts via SF/F actually help people with their school and work careers.
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« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2011, 12:03:49 PM »

I actually work as an editor in the field of science fiction and fantasy, and we have some pretty clear demographic information on our readership. In the US, at least, SF/F adult readers are more likely to have graduate education than readers of other sorts of popular fiction (e.g., crime, romance, "mainstream") and non-readers, more likely to be productively employed—even during this ongoing economic crisis—than other readers and non-readers, and more likely to be working in a technically skilled position (e.g., computers, engineering, healthcare). Juvenile and young adult readers are more likely to be in the top quintile of grades for both humanities and science/math subjects than kids whose main pursuits are sports or music/performance.

Hey, tell the geniuses at your company the next they want to find out nerds are the main consumers of Sci-Fi or even worse Fantasy to call me.



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« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2011, 12:06:59 PM »


Hey, tell the geniuses at your company the next they want to find out nerds are the main consumers of Sci-Fi or even worse Fantasy to call me.

Ah, are you a nerd, or just an expert on them? At any rate, what was interesting to businesses is what kind of nerds our nerdy readers were—were they guys who live in their mothers' basements, doing nothing all day but playing videogames pirating stuff off the Internet and occasionally buying something with the money from their part-time job at the pet shop, or were they productive members of the middle classes? The latter, as it turns out. That is to say, they weren't wasting their productive time.
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