Author Topic: For Orthonorm - Fatwa Against Pokémon Issued in Saudi Arabia - serious discussion  (Read 4761 times)

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Offline Riddikulus

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Christian fundamentalists have been there, done similar. Years ago they were ranting against Pokemon and accusing it of being satanic; banning it from their schools. No different to their rants against Harry Potter, of course. The Saudis just seem to be behind the times.
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Christian fundamentalists have been there, done similar. Years ago they were ranting against Pokemon and accusing it of being satanic; banning it from their schools. No different to their rants against Harry Potter, of course. The Saudis just seem to be behind the times.

Christian fundamentalists will rant against any popular children's entertainment. I remember the '80s, not being allowed to watch any cartoon after it became popular enough to merit it's own toy line. You couldn't watch Dungeons and Dragons because it was supposedly created by witches, you couldn't watch He-Man because five year olds rudely interrupted their elders during the blessing after the dad started off with "God, Master of the Universe" "God's not 'Master of the Universe', He-Man is!", you couldn't watch Star Wars because the Force is New Age propaganda, you couldn't watch GI Joe because fundies believed creating a clone from the DNA samples of the great evil dictators of old was a type of necromancy (as opposed to being merely bad science), you couldn't watch the Smurfs because the villain somehow promoted Satanism, and you couldn't watch the Transformers because.... I forget why, I guess God just hates cool talking robots.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Offline Riddikulus

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^^ :laugh: What silly critters homo sapiens are!
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Offline IsmiLiora

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God just hates cool talking robots.
GOD DOES NOT HATE OPTIMUS PRIME.
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam
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Offline Ionnis

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I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam

I get the Harry Potter thing (it's my guilty pleasure) but I don't get why Pokemon is a bad thing.  Then again I no nothing of Pokemon. I have self-respect, afterall.  [Not really, I used to play with pogs.] :)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 11:51:45 PM by Ionnis »
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I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam

It all depends on the reason.... If you think Pokemon are satanic, then yes. If you think they are a horrible waste of time and money and brain power then you're a caring parent trying to instill actual cultural and aesthetic values.

As for Harry Potter- that's just good parenting regardless. I hated those books. The movies were okay.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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My fundy cousins told me that my D&D game was going to get me eternal damnation, and through their influences I avoided Christianity for an additional 10+ years.

If only I hadn't thrown away my box set... I could have paid off my house for what that was worth now.


Christian fundamentalists have been there, done similar. Years ago they were ranting against Pokemon and accusing it of being satanic; banning it from their schools. No different to their rants against Harry Potter, of course. The Saudis just seem to be behind the times.

Christian fundamentalists will rant against any popular children's entertainment. I remember the '80s, not being allowed to watch any cartoon after it became popular enough to merit it's own toy line. You couldn't watch Dungeons and Dragons because it was supposedly created by witches, you couldn't watch He-Man because five year olds rudely interrupted their elders during the blessing after the dad started off with "God, Master of the Universe" "God's not 'Master of the Universe', He-Man is!", you couldn't watch Star Wars because the Force is New Age propaganda, you couldn't watch GI Joe because fundies believed creating a clone from the DNA samples of the great evil dictators of old was a type of necromancy (as opposed to being merely bad science), you couldn't watch the Smurfs because the villain somehow promoted Satanism, and you couldn't watch the Transformers because.... I forget why, I guess God just hates cool talking robots.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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If Pokemon teaches math, maybe I'll get my kids into it.  Seriously, have you seen the math they are teaching kids these days?

I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam

It all depends on the reason.... If you think Pokemon are satanic, then yes. If you think they are a horrible waste of time and money and brain power then you're a caring parent trying to instill actual cultural and aesthetic values.

As for Harry Potter- that's just good parenting regardless. I hated those books. The movies were okay.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam

Why do you oppose them?  Some reasons would, indeed, make you a raving fundamentalist.  Others would make you ill-informed.  A few would make you a paranoid person.  Still others would simply highlight your particular parenting style.
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Offline Riddikulus

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I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam

There's a difference, you know, between making a choice for yourself and your children, and insisting that everyone else follow your lead. As a parent, you have every right to do just that. But do you rant at everyong else, attempting to prevent them or their children from playing with Pokemon cards or reading HP books? If you do, I suspect you might be a raving fundamentalist.  Whatever the case, I still love you, Gebre. :angel:
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 02:31:21 AM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Riddikulus

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I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam

It all depends on the reason.... If you think Pokemon are satanic, then yes. If you think they are a horrible waste of time and money and brain power then you're a caring parent trying to instill actual cultural and aesthetic values.

As for Harry Potter- that's just good parenting regardless. I hated those books. The movies were okay.

This is personal opinion, not Fatwa! (I hope!)  ;)
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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I have a few basic reasons for what I allow my children to be exposed to and what I prohibit them from indulging in. I try to encourage entertainment and activities that will contribute to the cultivation of their spiritual, mental, and physical health. There is an abundance of wonderful literature - both Christian and non-Christian - that will stimulate their imagination, creativity, and promote positive values that are very much in line with an Orthodox Christian worldview. There are also plenty of board games and other amusements that are not tainted with subversive or overt messages and agendas which conflict with an Orthodox Christian worldview.

Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery, and sorcery is condemned without equivocation by the Church. I don't really know enough about Pokemon to say whether or not it is demonic; but since there are questions about it, I choose to err on the side of caution. I can't prove that demons operate through Ouija boards either, but I'm not gonna let my children play with Ouija boards just to prove that I'm not a fundamentalist.

To be honest, I think most people today are too easily satisfied. Do we really think that our children will be wiser, healthier, and better suited for the spiritual challenges of life by reading Harry Potter and playing with Pokemon cards rather than reading The Chronicles of Narnia and playing Chess?

But hey, that's just the way I choose to raise my own children. We've got a long way to go before they're out and on their own, but so far whatever my wife and I are doing seems to be working out pretty well. But please pray for us. The battle ain't over yet!


Selam  
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 03:17:02 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery,
Have you ever read Harry Potter?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 03:45:24 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Um, Gebre, you do realize that the Chronicles of Narnia has massive pagan influence, right?
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Offline Riddikulus

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I have a few basic reasons for what I allow my children to be exposed to and what I prohibit them from indulging in. I try to encourage entertainment and activities that will contribute to the cultivation of their spiritual, mental, and physical health. There is an abundance of wonderful literature - both Christian and non-Christian - that will stimulate their imagination, creativity, and promote positive values that are very much in line with an Orthodox Christian worldview. There are also plenty of board games and other amusements that are not tainted with subversive or overt messages and agendas which conflict with an Orthodox Christian worldview.

Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery, and sorcery is condemned without equivocation by the Church. I don't really know enough about Pokemon to say whether or not it is demonic; but since there are questions about it, I choose to err on the side of caution. I can't prove that demons operate through Ouija boards either, but I'm not gonna let my children play with Ouija boards just to prove that I'm not a fundamentalist.

To be honest, I think most people today are too easily satisfied. Do we really think that our children will be wiser, healthier, and better suited for the spiritual challenges of life by reading Harry Potter and playing with Pokemon cards rather than reading The Chronicles of Narnia and playing Chess?

But hey, that's just the way I choose to raise my own children. We've got a long way to go before they're out and on their own, but so far whatever my wife and I are doing seems to be working out pretty well. But please pray for us. The battle ain't over yet!


Selam  

If you see HP as glorifying sorcery, then it is logical that you would follow the lead of your conscience; avoid it and have your children avoid it. What parent would willingly subject their children to what they felt was evil? However, for those parents who don't see HP as glorifying sorcery, don't even see the slightest correlation between fictional and real life sorcery, only a fundamentalist would feel that such a parent is compelled to follow such a decision; for themselves or their children.

As I said before, what a person does as far as their own choices or for their children is their business; their right. That's not what makes a person a raving fundamentalist in my book. What makes a person a raving fundamentalist is the fact that they can't let others make a conscience call for themselves; that they insist that everyone see things their way.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 04:11:26 AM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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I have a few basic reasons for what I allow my children to be exposed to and what I prohibit them from indulging in. I try to encourage entertainment and activities that will contribute to the cultivation of their spiritual, mental, and physical health. There is an abundance of wonderful literature - both Christian and non-Christian - that will stimulate their imagination, creativity, and promote positive values that are very much in line with an Orthodox Christian worldview. There are also plenty of board games and other amusements that are not tainted with subversive or overt messages and agendas which conflict with an Orthodox Christian worldview.

Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery, and sorcery is condemned without equivocation by the Church. I don't really know enough about Pokemon to say whether or not it is demonic; but since there are questions about it, I choose to err on the side of caution. I can't prove that demons operate through Ouija boards either, but I'm not gonna let my children play with Ouija boards just to prove that I'm not a fundamentalist.

To be honest, I think most people today are too easily satisfied. Do we really think that our children will be wiser, healthier, and better suited for the spiritual challenges of life by reading Harry Potter and playing with Pokemon cards rather than reading The Chronicles of Narnia and playing Chess?

But hey, that's just the way I choose to raise my own children. We've got a long way to go before they're out and on their own, but so far whatever my wife and I are doing seems to be working out pretty well. But please pray for us. The battle ain't over yet!


Selam  

If you see HP as glorifying sorcery, then it is logical that you would follow the lead of your conscience; avoid it and have your children avoid it. What parent would willingly subject their children to what they felt was evil? However, for those parents who don't see HP as glorifying sorcery, don't even see the slightest correlation between fictional and real life sorcery, only a fundamentalist would feel that such a parent is compelled to follow such a decision; for themselves or their children.

As I said before, what a person does as far as their own choices or for their children is their business; their right. That's not what makes a person a raving fundamentalist in my book. What makes a person a raving fundamentalist is the fact that they can't let others make a conscience call for themselves; that they insist that everyone see things their way.


Last time I checked, I have neither the power, the authority, nor the desire to force other people to raise their children the same way I raise mine. All I can do is promote what I believe and leave the rest to God.

As for your definition of a fundamentalist: "The fact that they can't let others make a conscience call for themselves; that they insist that everyone see things their way." You may want to be careful about this, because your statement is self-contradictory (i.e. you want everyone see things your way in regard to this issue) and it also condemns Moses, the Prophets, the Teachings of the Church, and many Saints and Martyrs who gave their lives for their uncompromising defense of Truth.

The commandments of God, "Thou shall" and "Thou shalt not" is quite the antithesis of the philosophy of Anton Lavey, "Do what thou wilt." To the worldly mind, it appears that there is much more freedom in "Do what thou wilt;" but for the Christian we understand that true freedom is found in obedience to the will of God. We can follow our conscience or we can follow Christ. Hopefully we are allowing Christ to shape and mold our conscience so that we can discern what is spiritually profitable from that which is spiritually detrimental.

"Lord have mercy on us."


Selam
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery,
Have you ever read Harry Potter?


No. Nor have I played with Ouija boards, visited fortune tellers, tried heroin, or read Lady Chatterley's Lover. But I've certainly done plenty of other things that I wish I hadn't. I don't need to analyze the contents of feces to know that it's feces. (Forgive my bluntness.)



Selam



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« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 01:45:51 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Sorry for the snowball effect, everyone. I'll keep my fingers from typing in future.  :laugh:
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Offline orthonorm

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Sorry for the snowball effect, everyone. I'll keep my fingers from typing in future.  :laugh:

No worries.

It's internetz. It's bound to happen.

It's kinda cool though. A ridiculous story we can laugh at triggers a "serious" discussion which creates ridiculous posts we can laugh at.

I think the dark occult work The Lion King called it the Circle of Laugh or something.



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Offline Riddikulus

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Sorry for the snowball effect, everyone. I'll keep my fingers from typing in future.  :laugh:

No worries.

It's internetz. It's bound to happen.

It's kinda cool though. A ridiculous story we can laugh at triggers a "serious" discussion which creates ridiculous posts we can laugh at.

I think the dark occult work The Lion King called it the Circle of Laugh or something.





 :laugh:
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Offline minasoliman

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I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam

Looney Tunes is also sinful to watch as well, and quite blasphemous, since it teaches kids that bunnies, pigs, and ducks can talk.
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Looney Tunes is also sinful to watch as well, and quite blasphemous, since it teaches kids that bunnies, pigs, and ducks can talk.

The Bible says that snakes and donkeys can talk.

Offline orthonorm

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I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam

Looney Tunes is also sinful to watch as well, and quite blasphemous, since it teaches kids that bunnies, pigs, and ducks can talk.

 :police:

minasoliman,

I like your style (And your content, but for my money style comes first on the internet). And I ain't usually gonna say much about OO, cause I don't know much about EO much less OO, you know.

But I know Gebre belongs to the Ethiopian Church.

And they use Ge'ez, which from my limited understanding from reading his blog was the language Adam and Even used to speak with God, the animals, and each other.

So really, Looney Tunes depicts in a imperfect way how Creation might have been before the Fall.

Again, this is just what I have gathered from my readings of Gebre's blog and memories of cartoons.

But I'll let Gebre speak for himself or whatever animal knows the truth around this.
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Offline minasoliman

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Hmmmm....I suppose it's okay for non-Kosher animals to talk.  But ducks?  HERESY!!!
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Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery,
Have you ever read Harry Potter?


No. Nor have I played with Ouija boards, visited fortune tellers, tried heroin, or read Lady Chatterley's Lover. But I've certainly done plenty of other things that I wish I hadn't. I don't need to analyze the contents of feces to know that it's feces. (Forgive my bluntness.)
That you would equate a book you've never read with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, or heroin says a lot about your points of view, and it's not very good. Who told you Harry Potter was dung? Why do you believe the naysayers when you're not even familiar with what they're criticizing? I had a friend told me she wouldn't read Lord of the Rings because it "glorifies sorcery", even though the imagery painted in the trilogy is quite Christian. I suspect Harry Potter may be the same, yet you would never know because you prefer to believe what others tell you rather than crack open the books and see for yourself.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 01:56:13 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline IsmiLiora

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It's at times like this that I thank God that I was at a church that did an entire study dedicated to The Davinci Code and actually encouraged us to read it so that we knew what we were talking about (I did).

I think having discussions with our children about these things may be more effective than just outright banning something like that. Although I don't know what discussion I would want to have in regards to Pokemon  ??? besides, "If you play those cards for more than pennies or quarters, I will ground you," and "Do not throw balls in the house and expect Pikachu to come out of them."

But like PtA said, Harry Potter also uses a lot of good vs. evil and arguably Christian imagery. I wouldn't send my kid to Hogwarts camp or whatever, but I wouldn't see them reading it or enjoying the movies as a bad thing unless they believed that it was true.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 02:11:01 PM by IsmiLiora »
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline vamrat

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Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery,
Have you ever read Harry Potter?


No. Nor have I played with Ouija boards, visited fortune tellers, tried heroin, or read Lady Chatterley's Lover. But I've certainly done plenty of other things that I wish I hadn't. I don't need to analyze the contents of feces to know that it's feces. (Forgive my bluntness.)
That you would equate a book you've never read with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, or heroin says a lot about your points of view, and it's not very good. Who told you Harry Potter was dung? Why do you believe the naysayers when you're not even familiar with what they're criticizing? I had a friend told me she wouldn't read Lord of the Rings because it "glorifies sorcery", even though the imagery painted in the trilogy is quite Christian. I suspect Harry Potter may be the same, yet you would never know because you prefer to believe what others tell you rather than crack open the books and see for yourself.

I'm not sure how deep you would need to get into the books before figuring out that it has a thing or two to do with sorcery.  I never read the books but I've seen all of the movies except the most recent one.  I figured out it was about sorcery pretty soon into the first one.  That said, it is a pretty good story, and I can separate the evils of sorcery from the rest of the story.  There are a lot of great films out there with novel story ideas and great messages that some parents won't want their children seeing.  For instance, I love the film A Clockwork Orange, but I don't think any child younger than 12 should ever watch it.

BTW, HP also seems to have a soft spot for corrective rape as well.  Remember when that mean old crone gets drug off into the woods by centaurs where she meets some awful fate that doesn't involve death?  Well, if you remember back to your Greek mythology, you'll know what centaurs are famous for...


But all the same, Gebre, Pokemon ain't all that bad.  I'm sure that being a good parent you'd have your kids play Bulbasaurs, unlike those heretics Ismi and Akimori with their Squirtle and Charmander hogwash!   ;D
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Well, I think we can agree that there are a lot better books outside of HP, that are probably much more worth the read, regardless of sorcery or whatevz. ;) Frankly, I would not buy HP for my children unless they asked, but that's because I grew up obsessed with historical fiction anyway and had no time for fantasy (outside of utopian fiction). I had to read the first one in college and it was just okay. I could see why many children find it fascinating, but I didn't really feel compelled to keep reading.

And so YOU are a Bulbasaur chooser...actually, he was my #2, with Charmander coming in at a far third. :)
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Zionism accusations aside, I'm glad somebody finally stood up to these Pokemon folks, its about time ;)


Quote
And they use Ge'ez, which from my limited understanding from reading his blog was the language Adam and Even used to speak with God, the animals, and each other.

I just wanted to address this because I thought the sarcasm was unwarranted against the sacred Liturgical language of our Ethiopian Orthodox faith, we honor this language dearly, and prefer our most sincere chants and prayers in this mother tongue of the whole world.  Scoff if you'd like, but what Gebre Menfes Kiddus' blog mentions is not religious idealism of the Ethiopian fathers, it is a matter of linguistic fact.  Ge'ez, is by some ethnolinguists considered to be the proto-language of all of Semitic Africa and the Middle East.  It shares many cognates and grammatical structures universally with many regional Semitic dialects.

It used to be taught that Semitic language and culture cross into East Africa from the Arabian peninsula, now  a combination of history, anthropology, and archaeology have changed the game, and the evidence now more strongly suggests that Ethiopia in particular is the cradle of Semitic civilization and language, with a proto-Ge'ez being the proto-languge and mother tongue of all Semitic folks.  When this idea is combined with the evidence which also concurs to suggest that human evolution originates in Ethiopia as well (a combination of archaeology, DNA studies, and ethnolinguistics) we can see some support for Gebre Menfes Kiddus'  The Mitochondrial Eve either lived in Ethiopia or South Africa, but there is increasingly stronger evidence to suggest Ethiopia.  So Adam and Eve very well may have lived in Ethiopia, and the ethnolinguistic evidence suggests they may have spoken a proto-form of related to Ge'ez.  Either way, Ge'ez just might be the mother tongue of the Semitic languages, so respect is due, Adam and Eve speculation aside :)



stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 02:39:46 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline vamrat

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Zionism accusations aside, I'm glad somebody finally stood up to these Pokemon folks, its about time ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

That's it.  I'm going wrap you in vines and electrocute you with my mouse...wait, that sounds kinda bad.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 02:28:03 PM by vamrat »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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It's at times like this that I thank God that I was at a church that did an entire study dedicated to The Davinci Code and actually encouraged us to read it so that we knew what we were talking about (I did).

I think having discussions with our children about these things may be more effective than just outright banning something like that. Although I don't know what discussion I would want to have in regards to Pokemon  ??? besides, "If you play those cards for more than pennies or quarters, I will ground you," and "Do not throw balls in the house and expect Pikachu to come out of them."

But like PtA said, Harry Potter also uses a lot of good vs. evil and arguably Christian imagery. I wouldn't send my kid to Hogwarts camp or whatever, but I wouldn't see them reading it or enjoying the movies as a bad thing unless they believed that it was true.

Ismi, Ismi, Ismi...I am disappointed in you.  Don't you know Pikachu always stayed OUTSIDE his Pokeball?
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Well, I think we can agree that there are a lot better books outside of HP, that are probably much more worth the read, regardless of sorcery or whatevz. ;) Frankly, I would not buy HP for my children unless they asked, but that's because I grew up obsessed with historical fiction anyway and had no time for fantasy (outside of utopian fiction). I had to read the first one in college and it was just okay. I could see why many children find it fascinating, but I didn't really feel compelled to keep reading.

And so YOU are a Bulbasaur chooser...actually, he was my #2, with Charmander coming in at a far third. :)

You are all wrong AGAIN!  It goes Squirtle, Charmander, Bulbasaur - DUH!
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Offline Alpo

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...rather than reading The Chronicles of Narnia and playing Chess? ...

Why Narnia is better than Potter?

What about Lord of the Rings?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 03:59:29 PM by Alpo »

Offline minasoliman

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The Chronicles of Narnia also has sorcery in it.  A magical wardrobe, the good magic of Aslan against the bad magic of the evil witch, the completely non-Kosher half horse/half man characters, a talking lion that brings salvation...

And don't get me started with chess.  You're encouraging violence in the most sneaky and diabolical ways.  Rather than trying to corner the King to kill it, why can't we teach our children to settle our differences in a polite manner without war and death and destruction!  Hitler, Stalin, and Qadafi loved chess; do you want to be like Hitler, Stalin, and Qadafi?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 04:21:07 PM by minasoliman »
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Time for the fundies to have a coronary




The triune terror...socio-obama winki.

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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery,
Have you ever read Harry Potter?


No. Nor have I played with Ouija boards, visited fortune tellers, tried heroin, or read Lady Chatterley's Lover. But I've certainly done plenty of other things that I wish I hadn't. I don't need to analyze the contents of feces to know that it's feces. (Forgive my bluntness.)
That you would equate a book you've never read with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, or heroin says a lot about your points of view, and it's not very good. Who told you Harry Potter was dung? Why do you believe the naysayers when you're not even familiar with what they're criticizing? I had a friend told me she wouldn't read Lord of the Rings because it "glorifies sorcery", even though the imagery painted in the trilogy is quite Christian. I suspect Harry Potter may be the same, yet you would never know because you prefer to believe what others tell you rather than crack open the books and see for yourself.

That's the take of this Orthodox Christian: http://www.frederica.com/writings/harry-potter-and-the-deathly-hallows-part-2.html




Offline orthonorm

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sacred Liturgical language

Ain't no such thing.

Mock English all you want.

My preacher back in the day said God spoke the literal words of KJV. Until that time, the Bible had yet to be perfected.

Make hay of that all you want.

Whether something is warranted or not is another thing. 99% or more of what happens, ain't.

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Offline Riddikulus

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Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery,
Have you ever read Harry Potter?


No. Nor have I played with Ouija boards, visited fortune tellers, tried heroin, or read Lady Chatterley's Lover. But I've certainly done plenty of other things that I wish I hadn't. I don't need to analyze the contents of feces to know that it's feces. (Forgive my bluntness.)
That you would equate a book you've never read with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, or heroin says a lot about your points of view, and it's not very good. Who told you Harry Potter was dung? Why do you believe the naysayers when you're not even familiar with what they're criticizing? I had a friend told me she wouldn't read Lord of the Rings because it "glorifies sorcery", even though the imagery painted in the trilogy is quite Christian. I suspect Harry Potter may be the same, yet you would never know because you prefer to believe what others tell you rather than crack open the books and see for yourself.

That's the take of this Orthodox Christian: http://www.frederica.com/writings/harry-potter-and-the-deathly-hallows-part-2.html





The author seems pretty convinced that she wrote them with Christian imagry and themes.

HOLLYWOOD — It deals extensively with souls — about keeping them whole and the evil required to split them in two. After one hero falls beyond the veil of life, his whispers are still heard. It starts with the premise that love can save you from death and ends with a proclamation that a sacrifice in the name of love can bring you back from it.

Harry Potter is followed by house-elves and goblins — not disciples — but for the sharp-eyed reader, the biblical parallels are striking. Author J.K. Rowling's "Harry Potter" books have always, in fact, dealt explicitly with religious themes and questions, but until "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows," they had never quoted any specific religion.


Continued at http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572107/jk-rowling-talks-about-christian-imagery.jhtml



Excerpt of article truncated to just the first two paragraphs to make compliant with this rule on quoting of articles:

Quote
* Quoting Other Articles, Websites, etc. --  When linking articles, news stories, etc., please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.
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- PtA
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 06:48:41 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline FatherGiryus

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I always thought it was fairly obvious that Rowling wasn't trying to undermine Christianity any more than Tolkein or Lewis ever did.  She maintained a pretty hard line with morality throughout the books and really excuses no evil.   In the end, it isn't the magic that is central, but the morality of the characters: the magically-stronger wizards are ultimately defeated by weaker-magical figures with robust morality.


The author seems pretty convinced that she wrote them with Christian imagry and themes.

HOLLYWOOD — It deals extensively with souls — about keeping them whole and the evil required to split them in two. After one hero falls beyond the veil of life, his whispers are still heard. It starts with the premise that love can save you from death and ends with a proclamation that a sacrifice in the name of love can bring you back from it.

Harry Potter is followed by house-elves and goblins — not disciples — but for the sharp-eyed reader, the biblical parallels are striking. Author J.K. Rowling's "Harry Potter" books have always, in fact, dealt explicitly with religious themes and questions, but until "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows," they had never quoted any specific religion.

(SPOILER ALERT! The rest of this story discusses the conclusion of "Deathly Hallows.")

That was the plan from the start, Rowling told reporters during a press conference at the beginning of her Open Book Tour on Monday. It wasn't because she was afraid of inserting religion into a children's story. Rather, she was afraid that introducing religion (specifically Christianity) would give too much away to fans who might then see the parallels.

"To me [the religious parallels have] always been obvious," she said. "But I never wanted to talk too openly about it because I thought it might show people who just wanted the story where we were going."


Indeed, at its most simplistic, Harry's final tale can in some respects be boiled down to a resurrection story, with Harry venturing to a heavenly way station of sorts after getting hit with a killing curse in Chapter 35, only to shortly return. (Read how Rowling revealed the characters' fates to the "Harry Potter" movies' stars here.)

But if she was worried about tipping her hand narratively in the earlier books, she clearly wasn't by the time Harry visits his parents' graves in Chapter 16 of "Deathly Hallows," titled "Godric's Hollow." On his parents' tombstone he reads the quote "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death," while on another tombstone (that of Dumbledore's mother and sister) he reads, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

While Rowling said that "Hogwarts is a multifaith school," these quotes, of course, are distinctly Christian. The second is a direct quote of Jesus from Matthew 6:19, the first from 1 Corinthians 15:26. As Hermione tells Harry shortly after he sees the graves, his parents' message means "living beyond death. Living after death." It is one of the central foundations of resurrection theology.


Continued at http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572107/jk-rowling-talks-about-christian-imagery.jhtml

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Offline Justin Kissel

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I don't allow my children to play with Pokemon cards or read Harry Potter books. I guess that makes me a raving fundamentalist.  ::)



Selam

Looney Tunes is also sinful to watch as well, and quite blasphemous, since it teaches kids that bunnies, pigs, and ducks can talk.

Not to mention the violence... my God, the violence...
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Offline Riddikulus

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I always thought it was fairly obvious that Rowling wasn't trying to undermine Christianity any more than Tolkein or Lewis ever did.  She maintained a pretty hard line with morality throughout the books and really excuses no evil.   In the end, it isn't the magic that is central, but the morality of the characters: the magically-stronger wizards are ultimately defeated by weaker-magical figures with robust morality.


Indeed. Well said, FatherGiryus.

Right from cracking open the first book, it struck me as odd that there were any Christians decrying the books; especially amongst those who were avid fans of Tolkien and Lewis. A lot of detractors, of course, simply haven't read HP and seem to have responded due to their own personal aversion to a magical setting. And, it's not that I don't understand the caution. People have every right to be cautious. It's just that I don't understand such strong opposition to something of which they were essentially ignorant.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We homo sapiens are odd critters. :-[
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 06:42:32 PM by Riddikulus »
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


 Novels and literature capture in subtle detail the full gamut, not just of the full range of the human experience, but also our contemporary realities.  This precisely why in all grades in public education, we expose them to literature, that they can experience for themselves the growth and learning we get from reading fiction, because to understand fiction is to understand the underlying reality it portrays.  Further, fiction gives kids an opportunity to ask real, deep questions about our societies, our cultures, our moralities, our histories, our realities that is safer and more mutually neutral than confronting these same kinds of issue in real life.  Novels can critique and explain reality in ways lectures simply can not. 
I believe in protecting but not sheltering children.  After all, no family is an island and kids are not stupid. We can't honestly expect to shelter them from the ills of our societies unless we literally shelter them, and that is not exactly healthy or even necessarily Christian (see John 17:16-18; Mark 16:15-16).  I mean no disrespect to parents out there, but we all need to be a bit honest with ourselves and have a bit of  a sense of humor about some things too.  If we shelter our kids from reading, learning, and experiencing certain things for themselves, we are also blocking some opportunities for spiritual growth, development, and maturation.  We can raise our kids righteously without having to keep them in a bubble.

This is also not to accuse folks of anything or directed at any posters here specifically, rather these are just my general thoughts regarding children's exposure to certain kinds of literature and censorship around children in general.  Me personally, I believe in being totally honest with kids and letting the cards fall where they fall, after all, kids are people too and their often some of the brightest people I meet and know ;)


"You can't blame the youth of today, no and you can't fool them." Peter Tosh

stay blessed,
habte selassie



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Offline NicholasMyra

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
And they use Ge'ez, which from my limited understanding from reading his blog was the language Adam and Even used to speak with God, the animals, and each other.

I just wanted to address this because I thought the sarcasm was unwarranted against the sacred Liturgical language of our Ethiopian Orthodox faith
Habte, Gebre actually claims exactly what Jason said he does.

now  a combination of history, anthropology, and archaeology have changed the game, and the evidence now more strongly suggests that Ethiopia in particular is the cradle of Semitic civilization and language, with a proto-Ge'ez being the proto-languge and mother tongue of all Semitic folks. 
Source?
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Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Riddikulus

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Excerpt of article truncated to just the first two paragraphs to make compliant with this rule on quoting of articles:

Quote
* Quoting Other Articles, Websites, etc. --  When linking articles, news stories, etc., please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules

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My apologies, PtA. I missed that one.  :-[
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Harry Potter clearly glorifies sorcery,
Have you ever read Harry Potter?


No. Nor have I played with Ouija boards, visited fortune tellers, tried heroin, or read Lady Chatterley's Lover. But I've certainly done plenty of other things that I wish I hadn't. I don't need to analyze the contents of feces to know that it's feces. (Forgive my bluntness.)



Selam



Profanity edited out and replaced with something more appropriate  -PtA

You've been here long enough to know that we don't tolerate such gross profanities on the public boards. You are therefore receiving this warning to last for the next week. If you think this action unfair, please feel free to appeal it via private message to Fr. George.

- PeterTheAleut


Sorry for the profanity. I've read much more vulgar stuff than that on this forum. I think my record of clean speech here has been pretty good. But hey, rules are rules, and ignorance of the law is no excuse. Please accept my apologies.


Selam
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   



Selam
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Offline JamesRottnek

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How is it being fundamentalist to declare you ought to read Harry Potter before condemning it?  Perhaps I should condemn your wife without meeting her?  Say she has a horrible personality?  Should I do that without meeting her?  Would it make a difference if someone told me that she is a horrible person and has a terrible personality? 

You don't mind your children reading Chronicles of Narnia, a book that has massive amounts of sorcery, but you denounce Harry Potter without ever having cracked it open.  J.K. Rowling says she is a Christian, and many, many people who actually did read Harry Potter she a lot of Christian imagery - including Presbytera Frederica Matthews-Green.  I have read the books and I can guarantee you that the magic in Harry Potter is no worse than that in the Chronicles of Narnia or Lord of the Rings.  The magic in Harry Potter is not people calling upon pagan gods or goddesses, nor is it calling upon demons or spirits, to perform tasks.  Rather, magic is considered an art form, almost a science, by Hogwarts - it is a subject to teach in school, not a religious or spiritual thing. 

I think you ignorant not because you prohibit your children from reading Harry Potter; I think you ignorant because you condemn something you know nothing about.
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Offline minasoliman

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 12:52:58 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself. Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.


Selam
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:09:46 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Riddikulus

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

Selam


Speaking of objectivity, if you haven't read the books, how can your own comments be objective? Such comments could have no proportion in the first case as they are based in ignorance.
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

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Offline minasoliman

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself. Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.


Selam


Gebre, why then do you tell "this thread" "I can't stop others from raising their children."  If I am putting words in your mouth, then the sentence, "I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose." is unnecessary.  I only replied that "no one is stopping you," but since you accuse me of putting words in your mouth, then I'm sorry for making an assumption out of such empty and vain words of yours.

Oh and what about, "But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon. The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  Again, I wonder why you think the people in this thread who criticize your criticism of Harry Potter "doesn't believe in free speech" when clearly you're free to speak here.  But then again, my dear brother, if I am putting words in your mouth, then I apologize once again for criticizing your empty and vain words as well.  Consider the post before this one equally empty and vain.

But I advise anyone in this thread whoever has dementia from what they write online should go seek a physician immediately before someone inadvertently puts your own vomit back in your own mouth.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:35:32 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

Selam


Speaking of objectivity, if you haven't read the books, how can your own comments be objective? Such comments could have no proportion in the first case as they are based in ignorance.


Have you ever played with a Ouija board? Unless you have, then you cannot objectively criticize playing with Ouija boards.


Selam
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Offline Riddikulus

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

Selam


Speaking of objectivity, if you haven't read the books, how can your own comments be objective? Such comments could have no proportion in the first case as they are based in ignorance.


Have you ever played with a Ouija board? Unless you have, then you cannot objectively criticize playing with Ouija boards.


Selam


You believe the two equate?
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself.
Advice you should try following some time. Mina put no words into your mouth, and you are acting irrationally.

Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion.
I read your comments with an objective mind, and I still thought you blew things out of proportion. No rational person I know judges a book as s**t--yes, that's the exact word you used for it before a moderator came and removed the profanity--without ever having read it.

What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.
The only one here showing a visceral, emotional, illogical reaction to a differing opinion is you. I just said that you would do well to not judge a book before you read it, and others merely repeated what I said but in their own words.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.
Especially the one you're fighting.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself. Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion. What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.


Selam


Gebre, why then do you tell "this thread" "I can't stop others from raising their children."  If I am putting words in your mouth, then the sentence, "I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose." is unnecessary.  I only replied that "no one is stopping you," but since you accuse me of putting words in your mouth, then I'm sorry for making an assumption out of such empty and vain words of yours.

Oh and what about, "But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon. The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  Again, I wonder why you think the people in this thread who criticize your criticism of Harry Potter "doesn't believe in free speech" when clearly you're free to speak here.  But then again, my dear brother, if I am putting words in your mouth, then I apologize once again for criticizing your empty and vain words as well.  Consider the post before this one equally empty and vain.

But I advise anyone in this thread whoever has dementia from what they write online should go seek a physician immediately before someone inadvertently puts your own vomit back in your own mouth.


It's obvious that you either do not understand my clear words, or you deliberately choose to infuse them with meaning that they do not convey. You seem like an intelligent fellow, so I doubt that you are actually so daft as to not understand my words and their actual meaning. So, I can only conclude that you choose to misconstrue them in order to build your little straw man against which you can conveniently rail. That is unfortunate, because I really do think that you have the intellectual capacity to discuss the issue reasonably without resorting to such cheap and disingeneuous rhetoric and petty sniping. Now, if you want to discuss why you think Harry Potter is worth reading, then I'll be glad to listen. But I am no longer interested in your insults. Check your tone brother. I may be a pacifist, but I'm not a ... (no, I better not say that; I've already been warned once).


Selam
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon.

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."  

Selam

Gebre,

You decided in public to share with all of us how you raise your children.  All people did was criticize it, not force you to shut up or do things their way, and certainly you have every right as a parent to raise your children your own way.  No one took away your right to free speech, or your right to parent for that matter, and the fact that you even imply this is ridiculous on your part.

My personal criticism is that that ideas against Harry Potter and Pokemon are blown out of proportion (just as your self-righteous sense of web persecution is blown out of proportion), and honestly one should ask questions to themselves, where do we cross the line on cartoons or fantastical stories?  That was my point of my posts at least.



With respect brother, watch your accusatory tone. I never implied that anyone was trying to take away my right to raise my children how I see fit. Don't put words in my mouth brother. Check yourself.
Advice you should try following some time. Mina put no words into your mouth, and you are acting irrationally.

Nor do I feel "persecuted," so don't play that game with me. I know that when I express my views I will be criticized for them, and I've never cried about it. But I don't sit back and allow others to get away with putting words in my mouth or distorting my views, as you have done here with your comments above.

If you think criticisms of Harry Potter are blown out of proportion, then fine. But any objective reading of my initial comments about the subject here would hardly lead one to think I'm blowing it out of proportion.
I read your comments with an objective mind, and I still thought you blew things out of proportion. No rational person I know judges a book as s**t--yes, that's the exact word you used for it before a moderator came and removed the profanity--without ever having read it.

What is blown out of proportion are the visceral, emotional, illogical reactions to a differing opinion such as you have demonstrated here.
The only one here showing a visceral, emotional, illogical reaction to a differing opinion is you. I just said that you would do well to not judge a book before you read it, and others merely repeated what I said but in their own words.

I have more serious matters to address than to argue about Pokemon and Harry Potter. Crusade in favor of these things if you feel that you must, but be careful not to get caught in my windmill.
Especially the one you're fighting.


Have fun Peter. I've been sucked into this foolishness enough as it is.


Selam
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

Offline Volnutt

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How is it being fundamentalist to declare you ought to read Harry Potter before condemning it?  Perhaps I should condemn your wife without meeting her?  Say she has a horrible personality?  Should I do that without meeting her?  Would it make a difference if someone told me that she is a horrible person and has a terrible personality? 

You don't mind your children reading Chronicles of Narnia, a book that has massive amounts of sorcery, but you denounce Harry Potter without ever having cracked it open.  J.K. Rowling says she is a Christian, and many, many people who actually did read Harry Potter she a lot of Christian imagery - including Presbytera Frederica Matthews-Green.  I have read the books and I can guarantee you that the magic in Harry Potter is no worse than that in the Chronicles of Narnia or Lord of the Rings.  The magic in Harry Potter is not people calling upon pagan gods or goddesses, nor is it calling upon demons or spirits, to perform tasks.  Rather, magic is considered an art form, almost a science, by Hogwarts - it is a subject to teach in school, not a religious or spiritual thing. 

I think you ignorant not because you prohibit your children from reading Harry Potter; I think you ignorant because you condemn something you know nothing about.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.

But he could hardly know that about Harry Potter as he hasn't read it. (Or am I one of the demented in suggesting such a thing?  :-\ I have a headache, now!)  :laugh:
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Offline minasoliman

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Gebre, I actually find it amusing that you forget that it was you who wrote post number 96, and I repeated it.  Maybe you should read that post again and then think about what you're writing and how it looks to others.  I stand by what I wrote, and if you feel that's offensive, then that is your own words offending you.

But since you love reading the Chronicles of Narnia, then I'm sure you're going to like Harry Potter as well.  Is not the Chronicles of Narnia also about a magical place with fantastical creatures, where people use magic, and where a lion magically rises from the dead because "he didn't deserve it?"  Oh, I'm sorry, I should say, "He" because apparently our icons are filled with Christ depicted as a lion.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:57:10 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter. And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft. But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists.  

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards. I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it". There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.



Selam
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 02:07:02 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery.

Perhaps you could give us some examples of how Harry Potter glorifies sorcery.
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Gebre, the reason you are an ignorant person is that you claim Harry Potter glorifies sorcery and the Chronicles of Narnia do not - without ever having read Harry Potter.

This is essentially the definition of an ignorant person.
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Offline minasoliman

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Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter. And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft. But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists. 

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards. I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it". There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.



Selam


But magic is related with sorcery Gebre.  Sorcery is the practice of magic.  Both Narnia and Potter use sorcery, whether it be good or bad sorcery.  Aslan and Harry Potter used sorcery; the white witch and Voldemort used sorcery.

When Sorcery was a religion, it deserves condemnation, and at the time of the Church fathers and the authors of the Scriptures, there were real sorcerers.

But today, we have children playing make believe that they are pirates fighting each other, or robots moving towards a target, or (surprise surprise) throwing snowballs making believe they're magical fireballs.  If children grow up thinking that's real, then something is wrong with their brains.  But fantasy and make believe is a healthy part of growing up and children are intelligent enough that if anything, such things are really mocked than believed in.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 02:23:03 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Gebre, the reason you are an ignorant person is that you claim Harry Potter glorifies sorcery and the Chronicles of Narnia do not - without ever having read Harry Potter.

This is essentially the definition of an ignorant person.


Yes, I confess that I am ignorant about Harry Potter. But I know enough to choose to remain ignorant about Harry Potter, just as I know enough to remain ignorant about whatever went on "Behind the Green Door". I would rather be ignorant than a fool.



Selam
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Gebre, the reason you are an ignorant person is that you claim Harry Potter glorifies sorcery and the Chronicles of Narnia do not - without ever having read Harry Potter.

This is essentially the definition of an ignorant person.


Yes, I confess that I am ignorant about Harry Potter. But I know enough to choose to remain ignorant about Harry Potter, just as I know enough to remain ignorant about whatever went on "Behind the Green Door". I would rather be ignorant than a fool.



Selam


A fool would say something like "I am ignorant about x.  However, I enjoy being ignorant about x while claiming to know it is evil."  I believe I just called you a fool.
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Offline minasoliman

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Gebre,

There are people out there just like you, except much more consistent:

http://www.heavenisopen.com/newsletter/narnia2.html
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Offline Riddikulus

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Lewis gets this glorifying sorcery accusation, too. What I do find interesting is that Christian authors like Lewis and Rowling would be accused of glorifying sorcery all over the internet, while Philip Pullman, who is vocally anti-God, seems to have flown in under the radar and gets hardly a mention. The irony.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Gebre,

There are people out there just like you, except much more consistent:

http://www.heavenisopen.com/newsletter/narnia2.html

Oh my goodness, I was just reading that!  :laugh:
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter.
But how are you qualified to have an opinion about a book you've never read? I've never read Harry Potter myself, but I at least consider myself unqualified to have an opinion about whether Harry Potter glorifies sorcery or not.

And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft.
And how do you know that Harry Potter glorifies witchcraft?

But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists.
I won't either, as long as they've actually read the books and know why they won't let their kids read them.

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards.
The fact that you mentioned Harry Potter in the same sentence with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, heroin, and Lady Chatterley's Lover without any previous context, without any knowledge yet as to why I asked whether you had actually read Harry Potter, and with language that calls all those "vices" s**t, indicates very clearly that you equate the reading of Harry Potter with the use of Ouija boards.

I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it".
You were the first to mention that "logical absurdity". Since I had not yet explained why I asked if you had read Harry Potter, the very question that brought up your list of vices, I can only state that you assumed the reason and projected it onto my question.

There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.
Real caution also demands that you investigate those things that cannot be so easily discerned before you judge them as demonic. Remember the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the Prince of demons?

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.
But when you equate Harry Potter with a pile of dung (rhetoric out of which you tried to weasel yourself later on the thread) without ever having read it, then I see nothing to respect in your rationale for not letting your kids read Harry Potter.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 02:54:10 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Riddikulus

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An interesting thing with this Harry Potter topic...

I have the feeling that renaming the first book in the series with the title of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" for the American market has to have been a brilliant marketing ploy. In Britain, where it came out as "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" and not anywhere near as provocative, there wasn't a knee-jerl reaction to the books. It was only after the publishing of the first book in America that was there a response from Fundamentalists. In the title alone people were naturally going to see evil in epic proportions and the boosts to sales following the subsequent jihadic furore must have been tremendous. The overreaction certainly made J.K. a wealthy woman.

Not really on topic, I know - but what of this thread has been?  :angel:  :laugh:
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 03:17:37 AM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Gebre, the reason you are an ignorant person is that you claim Harry Potter glorifies sorcery and the Chronicles of Narnia do not - without ever having read Harry Potter.

This is essentially the definition of an ignorant person.


Yes, I confess that I am ignorant about Harry Potter. But I know enough to choose to remain ignorant about Harry Potter, just as I know enough to remain ignorant about whatever went on "Behind the Green Door". I would rather be ignorant than a fool.



Selam


A fool would say something like "I am ignorant about x.  However, I enjoy being ignorant about x while claiming to know it is evil."  I believe I just called you a fool.



I accept the compliment. Pray that I would be worthy of it.


Selam
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Selam, +GMK+

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Gebre,

There are people out there just like you, except much more consistent:

http://www.heavenisopen.com/newsletter/narnia2.html


Well if you want to continue this juvinile game, then fine. There are also people out there just like you, only much more consistent:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/02/hustlers_larry_flynt_defends_first_amendment_in_unc_speech


Selam
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Selam, +GMK+

Offline JamesRottnek

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I was not calling you a Fool for Christ - that is an honor.  I was merely calling you a fool.
 40 days of warning for such a blatant ad hominem - MK.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter.
But how are you qualified to have an opinion about a book you've never read? I've never read Harry Potter myself, but I at least consider myself unqualified to have an opinion about whether Harry Potter glorifies sorcery or not.

And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft.
And how do you know that Harry Potter glorifies witchcraft?

But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists.
I won't either, as long as they've actually read the books and know why they won't let their kids read them.

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards.
The fact that you mentioned Harry Potter in the same sentence with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, heroin, and Lady Chatterley's Lover without any previous context, without any knowledge yet as to why I asked whether you had actually read Harry Potter, and with language that calls all those "vices" s**t, indicates very clearly that you equate the reading of Harry Potter with the use of Ouija boards.

I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it".
You were the first to mention that "logical absurdity". Since I had not yet explained why I asked if you had read Harry Potter, the very question that brought up your list of vices, I can only state that you assumed the reason and projected it onto my question.

There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.
Real caution also demands that you investigate those things that cannot be so easily discerned before you judge them as demonic. Remember the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the Prince of demons?

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.
But when you equate Harry Potter with a pile of dung (rhetoric out of which you tried to weasel yourself later on the thread) without ever having read it, then I see nothing to respect in your rationale for not letting your kids read Harry Potter.


If you want to have a rationale and productive discussion Peter, then stop selectively quoting me out of context. For example, you completely ignored this statement of mine: "If others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter." Do you disagree with this? If not, then why not respect the fact that we can have an honest disagreement about the issue?  But you and some others zealously insist that I must read Harry Potter in order to form an opinion. So gosh, whose acting like the fundamentalist here?


Selam
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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I was not calling you a Fool for Christ - that is an honor.  I was merely calling you a fool.

Ungracious remark deleted. Forgive me.


Selam



« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 04:45:55 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Gebre, why did you read Chronicles of Narnia?  It has magic in it - therefore you did something equal to using a Ouija board.


I'm going to say this very clearly one more time. Repeating my clear views is something that I constantly have to do on this forum, since some people always misconstrue what I actually said.

First, I never said that any literature that contains magic in it is evil. What I said is that Harry Potter glorifies sorcery, and the Church is very clear in its condemnation of sorcery. Now, if others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter.
But how are you qualified to have an opinion about a book you've never read? I've never read Harry Potter myself, but I at least consider myself unqualified to have an opinion about whether Harry Potter glorifies sorcery or not.

And as for Narnia, I would argue that the books in no way glorify sorcery. There is a huge difference between fantasy, magical imagery, and the glorification of witchcraft.
And how do you know that Harry Potter glorifies witchcraft?

But if there are Christians out there who choose not to let their children read the Narnia books, then I'm not going to crusade against them as raving fundamentalists.
I won't either, as long as they've actually read the books and know why they won't let their kids read them.

Second, I never said that reading Harry Potter or playing with Pokemon cards is equivalent to playing with Ouija boards.
The fact that you mentioned Harry Potter in the same sentence with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, heroin, and Lady Chatterley's Lover without any previous context, without any knowledge yet as to why I asked whether you had actually read Harry Potter, and with language that calls all those "vices" s**t, indicates very clearly that you equate the reading of Harry Potter with the use of Ouija boards.

I brought up Ouija boards to highlight the logical absurdity of saying that "unless you try it you can't criticize it".
You were the first to mention that "logical absurdity". Since I had not yet explained why I asked if you had read Harry Potter, the very question that brought up your list of vices, I can only state that you assumed the reason and projected it onto my question.

There are many things that we do not need to read or experience in order to know that they are not spiritually healthy. Sometimes, there are things like Harry Potter and Pokemon that are not so easily discerned. My personal view is that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that my be potentially detrimental. Do not forget that the devil is crafty, and he often comes disguised as an angel of light.
Real caution also demands that you investigate those things that cannot be so easily discerned before you judge them as demonic. Remember the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the Prince of demons?

Now, let me add this. I also think that there are many good, sincere, concientious Christian parents who can read the Harry Potter books with their children and point out that which is compatible with an Orthodox Christian worldview while also pointing out those things which may not be compatible. I think such an endeavor is commendable, and I don't condemn anyone who chooses to undertake that task. But as I said in my original comments, I choose not to let my children read Harry Potter or play with Pokemon cards. Others can respect my decision or not. I really don't care.
But when you equate Harry Potter with a pile of dung (rhetoric out of which you tried to weasel yourself later on the thread) without ever having read it, then I see nothing to respect in your rationale for not letting your kids read Harry Potter.


If you want to have a rationale and productive discussion Peter, then stop selectively quoting me out of context. For example, you completely ignored this statement of mine: "If others happen to believe that harry Potter does not glorify sorcery, then they're welcome to their opinion. Good Christian people can disagree on this matter." Do you disagree with this? If not, then why not respect the fact that we can have an honest disagreement about the issue?
This is not an honest disagreement, Gebre, for an honest disagreement requires that you first understand what we're disagreeing over. You don't. We're not arguing over whether Harry Potter glorifies sorcery; we're arguing over whether you're even qualified to have that opinion about a book you've never read.

But you and some others zealously insist that I must read Harry Potter in order to form an opinion.
Yes, that is true.

So gosh, whose acting like the fundamentalist here?
Please be careful to know with whom you're arguing so you can separate my rhetoric from his. I never accused you of acting like a fundamentalist--someone else did--so your implication that I'm acting like a hypocrite is off the mark.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 02:06:43 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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I'd like to leave on a serious note:

Spiritual discernment is a serious matter. The world, the flesh, and the devil cloud our judgment and make it difficult to recognize spiritual pitfalls and demonic traps. The sins and deceptions to which I have fallen prey have been much worse than Harry Potter novels or Pokemon cards. So, I must be vigilant in my own life to discern truth from falsehood, light from darkness, and good from evil. As Orthodox Christians, we should encourage one another and caution one another in love without judgment or condemnation. This is not easy, for usually when we try to deter others from things which we personally deem to be problematic, we will be ridiculed and condemned as judgmental. So we have to try to be loving and gracious in how we offer our opinions. And there is no doubt that I repeatedly FAIL to always be loving and gracious in how I convey my own views and beliefs.

I stand firmly behind my convictions on the issue at hand; however, I apologize for being profane, contentious, and arrogant in this discussion.

I don't think there is anything more productive I can add to this thread than that.

Pray for me, a sinner.


Selam
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Selam, +GMK+

Offline NM

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Fantasy in fiction, in addition to inspiring the imagination of young readers, works as a sort of extended metaphor for social phenomena—technology, commerce, emotional connections, etc. The unreal is tool in the storyteller's toolbox to express his or her thoughts about the real world. The "magic/sorcery" in most fantasy novels and stories works a heck of a lot more like technology does (e.g., there's generally a law of dosage, a notion of limited energy, engineering limitations) than real world "occult" practices do. This is certainly the case in Harry Potter: magic is a stand-in for consumer culture and the British class system more than anything else.

Offline minasoliman

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Gebre,

There are people out there just like you, except much more consistent:

http://www.heavenisopen.com/newsletter/narnia2.html

Well if you want to continue this juvenile game, then fine. There are also people out there just like you, only much more consistent:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2010/02/hustlers_larry_flynt_defends_first_amendment_in_unc_speech


Selam



 ::)

Right to be left alone?  Free speech?  This sounds so familiar.  Where have I read this before?

One thing is very clear from this thread: there is much more zealous fundamentalist condemnation coming from those who support Harry Potter and Pokemon than from anything I have said in opposition to them. I raise my children how I see fit, and I can't stop others from raising their children however they choose. But it's quite humorous to see the visceral reaction towards anyone who dares to say anything critical about Harry Potter or Pokemon. 

"The open-minded mob killed the narrow minded man because he said he didn't believe in free speech."   



Selam

And honestly this wasn't a game.  I honedtly compared you to someone who abhors literature that "glorifies sorcery"; the only difference he doesn't pretend Narnia doesn't.  I thought that might have been clear enough.  But you unnecessarily turned it into a game.  And if I'm playing a juvenile game, what does that make you in engaging in it?
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Offline Shlomlokh

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I'd like to leave on a serious note:

Spiritual discernment is a serious matter. The world, the flesh, and the devil cloud our judgment and make it difficult to recognize spiritual pitfalls and demonic traps. The sins and deceptions to which I have fallen prey have been much worse than Harry Potter novels or Pokemon cards. So, I must be vigilant in my own life to discern truth from falsehood, light from darkness, and good from evil. As Orthodox Christians, we should encourage one another and caution one another in love without judgment or condemnation. This is not easy, for usually when we try to deter others from things which we personally deem to be problematic, we will be ridiculed and condemned as judgmental. So we have to try to be loving and gracious in how we offer our opinions. And there is no doubt that I repeatedly FAIL to always be loving and gracious in how I convey my own views and beliefs.

I stand firmly behind my convictions on the issue at hand; however, I apologize for being profane, contentious, and arrogant in this discussion.

I don't think there is anything more productive I can add to this thread than that.

Pray for me, a sinner.


Selam
Thank you for this. I have been watching this thread since it started and find it sad that people who call themselves Orthodox cannot accept the fact that someone might disagree with Harry Potter or Pokemon. Having been immersed in both myself in my childhood, the main thing that affected me was wasting my time in a fantasy land when I could have done far more productive things. I certainly enjoyed them but my time and imagination would have been better spent elsewhere. I know where you're coming from Gebre. We have to be more discerning of these things and I see nothing wrong with doing so. Maybe one day on OC.net we can have a discussion without crucifying the opposing side. Maybe one day.

In Christ,
Andrew
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Offline orthonorm

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Weird. Might be a glitch, but this thread has more posts than views.
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Offline IsmiLiora

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They split the thread. No one is viewing the serious discussion, but we're all posting rabidly about which version of Pokemon is better in the stupid thread.

ETA: J/k. To stay on topic, I agree that the bad thing about these fads is wasting time that could be used for other activities. That's where my mother came in. She limited my video game playing but never banned Pokemon outright. I think it's a good balance.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 10:40:40 AM by IsmiLiora »
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline orthonorm

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They split the thread. No one is viewing the serious discussion, but we're all posting rabidly about which version of Pokemon is better in the stupid thread.

ETA: J/k. To stay on topic, I agree that the bad thing about these fads is wasting time that could be used for other activities. That's where my mother came in. She limited my video game playing but never banned Pokemon outright. I think it's a good balance.

Oh. I'll have to watch in future where threads get split to see how it affect the post / view ratio.

Maybe if we keep talking about this, it will get split again.

All I know is that HP and Pokemon both huge time wasters for a kid or an adult *shudder*. But everyone wastes their time one way or another.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 10:43:33 AM by orthonorm »
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Offline primuspilus

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What about related things like Magic: The Gathering (which I love but is admittedly, more overt), Yu-Gi-Oh!, D&D, MMORPG's etc?

PP
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Offline vamrat

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To be quite honest, I think that this thread is the banter and all serious conversation (Pokemon and reminiscing about the '90's) was left on the other thread.

What is anyone gaining from this?  Gebre, you really can't argue against the quality of Harry Potter having not watching it.  You do have the right to say it looks stupid and you aren't going to watch it.  I do the same and I am sure everyone else has.  I'm not going to watch Brokeback Mountain because it looks pretty weak.  People have told me it was a good story with plenty of emotional content, but I'd just as soon remember Heath Ledger as the Joker.  But in the end this is pre-judging something and thus prejudice.  Which is ok and all, prejudice is the most natural thing we can do after eating and fornicating.

And y'all probably ain't going to convince him to watch HP by calling him a fool or ignorant.  Looks like a few of you were trying to say why Harry Potter is a ripping yarn.  I think this is the better approach.  All the "you don't even know" is starting to sound a bit too John Rambo for me.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline NM

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Thank you for this. I have been watching this thread since it started and find it sad that people who call themselves Orthodox cannot accept the fact that someone might disagree with Harry Potter or Pokemon. Having been immersed in both myself in my childhood, the main thing that affected me was wasting my time in a fantasy land when I could have done far more productive things. I certainly enjoyed them but my time and imagination would have been better spent elsewhere.

I'm sorry to hear that your involvement in entertainments crowded out the more productive things you could have been doing. It certainly happens, regardless of what people choose to pursue—some people waste their time with sports, with intellectual pursuits, etc.

I actually work as an editor in the field of science fiction and fantasy, and we have some pretty clear demographic information on our readership. In the US, at least, SF/F adult readers are more likely to have graduate education than readers of other sorts of popular fiction (e.g., crime, romance, "mainstream") and non-readers, more likely to be productively employed—even during this ongoing economic crisis—than other readers and non-readers, and more likely to be working in a technically skilled position (e.g., computers, engineering, healthcare). Juvenile and young adult readers are more likely to be in the top quintile of grades for both humanities and science/math subjects than kids whose main pursuits are sports or music/performance.

Like I said, I'm sorry you found Pokemon and Harry Potter to be such a drain on your time, but most people not only handle it just fine, an argument can be made that exposure to math, history, languages, and abstract concepts via SF/F actually help people with their school and work careers.

Offline orthonorm

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I actually work as an editor in the field of science fiction and fantasy, and we have some pretty clear demographic information on our readership. In the US, at least, SF/F adult readers are more likely to have graduate education than readers of other sorts of popular fiction (e.g., crime, romance, "mainstream") and non-readers, more likely to be productively employed—even during this ongoing economic crisis—than other readers and non-readers, and more likely to be working in a technically skilled position (e.g., computers, engineering, healthcare). Juvenile and young adult readers are more likely to be in the top quintile of grades for both humanities and science/math subjects than kids whose main pursuits are sports or music/performance.

Hey, tell the geniuses at your company the next they want to find out nerds are the main consumers of Sci-Fi or even worse Fantasy to call me.



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Offline NM

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Hey, tell the geniuses at your company the next they want to find out nerds are the main consumers of Sci-Fi or even worse Fantasy to call me.

Ah, are you a nerd, or just an expert on them? At any rate, what was interesting to businesses is what kind of nerds our nerdy readers were—were they guys who live in their mothers' basements, doing nothing all day but playing videogames pirating stuff off the Internet and occasionally buying something with the money from their part-time job at the pet shop, or were they productive members of the middle classes? The latter, as it turns out. That is to say, they weren't wasting their productive time.

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Hey, tell the geniuses at your company the next they want to find out nerds are the main consumers of Sci-Fi or even worse Fantasy to call me.

Ah, are you a nerd, or just an expert on them?

Observer of the obviously obvious.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Hey, tell the geniuses at your company the next they want to find out nerds are the main consumers of Sci-Fi or even worse Fantasy to call me.

Ah, are you a nerd, or just an expert on them? At any rate, what was interesting to businesses is what kind of nerds our nerdy readers were—were they guys who live in their mothers' basements, doing nothing all day but playing videogames pirating stuff off the Internet and occasionally buying something with the money from their part-time job at the pet shop, or were they productive members of the middle classes? The latter, as it turns out. That is to say, they weren't wasting their productive time.
Orthonorm may be an expert on nerds, but I AM a nerd and am therefore qualified to tell you he's right. ;D
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Offline Andrew Crook

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Just for the record,

I've always seen the Saudi government as quite backwards and behind the times.  The same could be said for many other nations where there are more fanatics per square acre than there are the rest of us "moderate/normal folk".  This fatwa against Pokemon only reinforces my belief..

I was reading this with my friend, and he was telling me Jehovah's Witnesses would have similar issues with Pokemon.  I also have read Harry Potter, and Lord of the Rings -- I find them to be harmless entertainment as I don't take them seriously.  J.R.R. Tolkien and J.K. Rowling are both devouted Christians who struggled in their faith.  If you ever read Harry Potter, especially the last book (or the last movie) -- you would understand the religious imagery and symbolism.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity

Offline HabteSelassie

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Bro Gebre Menfes Kiddus, I think you are taking this all way to personal, and starting to get way too defensive.  The folks are rightfully misunderstanding your unclear opinions regarding children's literature.  You have been taking it way to personal, all you had to say was, "Sorry guys, I don't like my kids reading Harry Potter" and left it at that and moved on to better discussions, instead you let your defensive reaction to defend your parenting get to you, when its nothing personal until you make it that way.  So let it go, these folks are just trying to understand you, but you are not really explaining yourself very well, so just quit while you are ahead.

In regards to literature in general, I would like to reiterate this point I made earlier which got lost in all the bickering..

 Novels and literature capture in subtle detail the full gamut, not just of the full range of the human experience, but also our contemporary realities.  This precisely why in all grades in public education, we expose them to literature, that they can experience for themselves the growth and learning we get from reading fiction, because to understand fiction is to understand the underlying reality it portrays.  Further, fiction gives kids an opportunity to ask real, deep questions about our societies, our cultures, our moralities, our histories, our realities that is safer and more mutually neutral than confronting these same kinds of issue in real life.  Novels can critique and explain reality in ways lectures simply can not. 
I believe in protecting but not sheltering children.  After all, no family is an island and kids are not stupid. We can't honestly expect to shelter them from the ills of our societies unless we literally shelter them, and that is not exactly healthy or even necessarily Christian (see John 17:16-18; Mark 16:15-16).  I mean no disrespect to parents out there, but we all need to be a bit honest with ourselves and have a bit of  a sense of humor about some things too.  If we shelter our kids from reading, learning, and experiencing certain things for themselves, we are also blocking some opportunities for spiritual growth, development, and maturation.  We can raise our kids righteously without having to keep them in a bubble.

 Me personally, I believe in being totally honest with kids and letting the cards fall where they fall, after all, kids are people too and their often some of the brightest people I meet and know ;)


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Offline JamesRottnek

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Foolish arguments are derived from fools.

Whoops, this may be an ad hominem.
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Offline primuspilus

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Foolish arguments are derived from fools.

Whoops, this may be an ad hominem.
*wince*
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THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT!

(NSFW - language/violence)

I'm going to need this.

Offline Ionnis

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Foolish arguments are derived from fools.

Whoops, this may be an ad hominem.

 But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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I am in danger of hell fire for many, many reasons.  Unfortunately, this may be the least of them.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

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Offline Justin Kissel

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Offline Jason.Wike

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If Pokemon teaches math, maybe I'll get my kids into it.  Seriously, have you seen the math they are teaching kids these days?

Math is math, what are they teaching?

Offline FatherGiryus

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Evolution of Math in US Schools

Teaching Math in 1959

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is 4/5 of the price.  What is his profit?
 
Teaching Math in 1969

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80.  What is his profit?

Teaching Math in 1979

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is $80.  Did he make a profit?
 
Teaching Math in 1989
 
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20.  Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

Teaching Math in 1999
 
A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands.  He does this so he can make a profit of $20.  What do you think of his way of making a living?  Topic for class participation after answering the question:  How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger destroyed their homes?  (There are no wrong answers, and if you feel like crying, it’s OK.)
 
Teaching Math in 2009

Un maderero vende un camión cargado de madera por $100.  Su coste de producción es de $80.  ¿Se obtienen beneficios?


If Pokemon teaches math, maybe I'll get my kids into it.  Seriously, have you seen the math they are teaching kids these days?

Math is math, what are they teaching?
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Offline Aindriú

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Evolution of Math in US Schools

Teaching Math in 1959

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is 4/5 of the price.  What is his profit?
 
Teaching Math in 1969

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80.  What is his profit?

Teaching Math in 1979

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is $80.  Did he make a profit?
 
Teaching Math in 1989
 
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.  His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20.  Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

Teaching Math in 1999
 
A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands.  He does this so he can make a profit of $20.  What do you think of his way of making a living?  Topic for class participation after answering the question:  How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger destroyed their homes?  (There are no wrong answers, and if you feel like crying, it’s OK.)
 
Teaching Math in 2009

Un maderero vende un camión cargado de madera por $100.  Su coste de producción es de $80.  ¿Se obtienen beneficios?


If Pokemon teaches math, maybe I'll get my kids into it.  Seriously, have you seen the math they are teaching kids these days?

Math is math, what are they teaching?

lol

I'm going to need this.

Offline Aindriú

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If Pokemon teaches math, maybe I'll get my kids into it.  Seriously, have you seen the math they are teaching kids these days?

Math is math, what are they teaching?

Less challenge.

Set the bar high and expect people to work for it, and understand there will be failure.

Not set the bar low enough everyone can pass, and when no one tries start to make rationalizations.

I'm going to need this.

Offline dzheremi

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This fatwa will go well with the earlier Saudi fatwa against Mickey Mouse. I say more power to them. Maybe they'll reach a point where they're so busy issuing fatwas against imaginary things they'll leave actual human beings alone. I'm a dreamer, I know...

Offline FantaLimon

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This isn't Pokemon, but it's pretty engrossing and motivating: http://www.khanacademy.org/

I will say though that video and hobby games aren't all simple platform-jumpers.  Being a sort of bookworm myself, I particularly enjoyed historical wargames like the Total War series (through which I learned of the living Orthodox Church  :D), and the probability-fests that are Magic: the Gathering and Warhammer 40,000.  All of these games deal with magic, war, politics, and... well it's hard to explain 40k but it's pretty dark.  Also, mathematical concepts like geometry, probability, and frequent addition and subtraction of larger numbers (what's 83 + 250 + 5 + 10 + 150 + 151 + 137 +...) used in the latter 2 games can help in math class.  The parent will also sharpen their math skills (-$100, -$33, -$57...).

Offline vamrat

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This isn't Pokemon, but it's pretty engrossing and motivating: http://www.khanacademy.org/

I will say though that video and hobby games aren't all simple platform-jumpers.  Being a sort of bookworm myself, I particularly enjoyed historical wargames like the Total War series (through which I learned of the living Orthodox Church  :D), and the probability-fests that are Magic: the Gathering and Warhammer 40,000.  All of these games deal with magic, war, politics, and... well it's hard to explain 40k but it's pretty dark.  Also, mathematical concepts like geometry, probability, and frequent addition and subtraction of larger numbers (what's 83 + 250 + 5 + 10 + 150 + 151 + 137 +...) used in the latter 2 games can help in math class.  The parent will also sharpen their math skills (-$100, -$33, -$57...).


QFT.  Ever play Orks in 40k?  (- First Mortgage, - Second Mortgage, - Kidney...)
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Shiny

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LOL Father at the Math post!
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This isn't Pokemon, but it's pretty engrossing and motivating: http://www.khanacademy.org/

I will say though that video and hobby games aren't all simple platform-jumpers.  Being a sort of bookworm myself, I particularly enjoyed historical wargames like the Total War series (through which I learned of the living Orthodox Church  :D), and the probability-fests that are Magic: the Gathering and Warhammer 40,000.  All of these games deal with magic, war, politics, and... well it's hard to explain 40k but it's pretty dark.  Also, mathematical concepts like geometry, probability, and frequent addition and subtraction of larger numbers (what's 83 + 250 + 5 + 10 + 150 + 151 + 137 +...) used in the latter 2 games can help in math class.  The parent will also sharpen their math skills (-$100, -$33, -$57...).


QFT.  Ever play Orks in 40k?  (- First Mortgage, - Second Mortgage, - Kidney...)

I really hate these games. One time I was able to get one deck of Magic with my $10 weekly allowance and showed it to my friend. "Hey, check out this cool game!" Next day he shows up with 10 starter decks from his apparently $100 allowance and naturally crushes me repeatedly.

The one game that evened the score was Steve Jackson's Illuminati where it was $2 a deck.
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Offline vamrat

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This isn't Pokemon, but it's pretty engrossing and motivating: http://www.khanacademy.org/

I will say though that video and hobby games aren't all simple platform-jumpers.  Being a sort of bookworm myself, I particularly enjoyed historical wargames like the Total War series (through which I learned of the living Orthodox Church  :D), and the probability-fests that are Magic: the Gathering and Warhammer 40,000.  All of these games deal with magic, war, politics, and... well it's hard to explain 40k but it's pretty dark.  Also, mathematical concepts like geometry, probability, and frequent addition and subtraction of larger numbers (what's 83 + 250 + 5 + 10 + 150 + 151 + 137 +...) used in the latter 2 games can help in math class.  The parent will also sharpen their math skills (-$100, -$33, -$57...).


QFT.  Ever play Orks in 40k?  (- First Mortgage, - Second Mortgage, - Kidney...)

I really hate these games. One time I was able to get one deck of Magic with my $10 weekly allowance and showed it to my friend. "Hey, check out this cool game!" Next day he shows up with 10 starter decks from his apparently $100 allowance and naturally crushes me repeatedly.

The one game that evened the score was Steve Jackson's Illuminati where it was $2 a deck.

I only played Magic for a little while.  Everyone at the lunch table played it so I was at a buddy's house and a friend of his dad's had given him an entire box of magic cards so I had a guy at school build me a deck utilizing nothing but rats (this fellow was the sage of nerds and made the best decks).  Then he took his best deck against me and I won. 

I've played 40k since mid High School.  I have Space Marines but usually play Orks or Eldar.  Most of the models were bought well before the price hikes got egregious.  Much prefer Flames of War or Force on Force.  Force on Force can be the poor man's wargame, as long as you stay away from mechanized units.  My Cold War Soviet company is probably going to hit $100.  In 15mm, before the Technicals, I think I spent about $30 on the African militia.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline FatherGiryus

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I got into lead soldiers for a while, and started painting a whole set of Aurelian Roman legionnairies to get into a local gaming group.  But, it was too expensive and I found that I preferred to paint more than play.  With computer gaming, I wonder if they even make those lead figures.  I have no idea where my collection went.  I still enjoy the smell of lacquer thinner...

This isn't Pokemon, but it's pretty engrossing and motivating: http://www.khanacademy.org/

I will say though that video and hobby games aren't all simple platform-jumpers.  Being a sort of bookworm myself, I particularly enjoyed historical wargames like the Total War series (through which I learned of the living Orthodox Church  :D), and the probability-fests that are Magic: the Gathering and Warhammer 40,000.  All of these games deal with magic, war, politics, and... well it's hard to explain 40k but it's pretty dark.  Also, mathematical concepts like geometry, probability, and frequent addition and subtraction of larger numbers (what's 83 + 250 + 5 + 10 + 150 + 151 + 137 +...) used in the latter 2 games can help in math class.  The parent will also sharpen their math skills (-$100, -$33, -$57...).


QFT.  Ever play Orks in 40k?  (- First Mortgage, - Second Mortgage, - Kidney...)

I really hate these games. One time I was able to get one deck of Magic with my $10 weekly allowance and showed it to my friend. "Hey, check out this cool game!" Next day he shows up with 10 starter decks from his apparently $100 allowance and naturally crushes me repeatedly.

The one game that evened the score was Steve Jackson's Illuminati where it was $2 a deck.

I only played Magic for a little while.  Everyone at the lunch table played it so I was at a buddy's house and a friend of his dad's had given him an entire box of magic cards so I had a guy at school build me a deck utilizing nothing but rats (this fellow was the sage of nerds and made the best decks).  Then he took his best deck against me and I won. 

I've played 40k since mid High School.  I have Space Marines but usually play Orks or Eldar.  Most of the models were bought well before the price hikes got egregious.  Much prefer Flames of War or Force on Force.  Force on Force can be the poor man's wargame, as long as you stay away from mechanized units.  My Cold War Soviet company is probably going to hit $100.  In 15mm, before the Technicals, I think I spent about $30 on the African militia.
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Offline vamrat

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I got into lead soldiers for a while, and started painting a whole set of Aurelian Roman legionnairies to get into a local gaming group.  But, it was too expensive and I found that I preferred to paint more than play.  With computer gaming, I wonder if they even make those lead figures.  I have no idea where my collection went.  I still enjoy the smell of lacquer thinner...

This isn't Pokemon, but it's pretty engrossing and motivating: http://www.khanacademy.org/

I will say though that video and hobby games aren't all simple platform-jumpers.  Being a sort of bookworm myself, I particularly enjoyed historical wargames like the Total War series (through which I learned of the living Orthodox Church  :D), and the probability-fests that are Magic: the Gathering and Warhammer 40,000.  All of these games deal with magic, war, politics, and... well it's hard to explain 40k but it's pretty dark.  Also, mathematical concepts like geometry, probability, and frequent addition and subtraction of larger numbers (what's 83 + 250 + 5 + 10 + 150 + 151 + 137 +...) used in the latter 2 games can help in math class.  The parent will also sharpen their math skills (-$100, -$33, -$57...).


QFT.  Ever play Orks in 40k?  (- First Mortgage, - Second Mortgage, - Kidney...)

I really hate these games. One time I was able to get one deck of Magic with my $10 weekly allowance and showed it to my friend. "Hey, check out this cool game!" Next day he shows up with 10 starter decks from his apparently $100 allowance and naturally crushes me repeatedly.

The one game that evened the score was Steve Jackson's Illuminati where it was $2 a deck.

I only played Magic for a little while.  Everyone at the lunch table played it so I was at a buddy's house and a friend of his dad's had given him an entire box of magic cards so I had a guy at school build me a deck utilizing nothing but rats (this fellow was the sage of nerds and made the best decks).  Then he took his best deck against me and I won. 

I've played 40k since mid High School.  I have Space Marines but usually play Orks or Eldar.  Most of the models were bought well before the price hikes got egregious.  Much prefer Flames of War or Force on Force.  Force on Force can be the poor man's wargame, as long as you stay away from mechanized units.  My Cold War Soviet company is probably going to hit $100.  In 15mm, before the Technicals, I think I spent about $30 on the African militia.

Oh yeah, there are plenty of companies that make metal/plastic/resin figures still in numerous scales.  If anything, I would say that the number of companies that produce miniatures has expanded.  Probably from about any war you can think of too.  Niche companies make models for almost every war imaginable from Sumerians to the current Iraq War.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline orthonorm

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The one game that evened the score was Steve Jackson's Illuminati where it was $2 a deck.

I had every possible card, odd print etc. of Steve Jackson's stuff x 6. INWO was HUGE where I was, friendwise. That other stuff not so much. Rich kid silly stuff. And my buddy did some work on GURPS crap, so we had an in for the pointless promotional crap.

We all played with you can make any card whatever to rule out the buying advantage. Really none of spent much money on the game cause there was shop with a huge inventory that decided to go full clearance after selling almost none after a few months.

Hence my playing the cards here from time to time.

I hate owning or collecting stuff. I do wish I still had at least one of the sets.
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