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Author Topic: Orthodox who have converted from Pentecostalism  (Read 4013 times) Average Rating: 0
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Aindriú
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« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2011, 09:31:07 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.

Perhaps to some of the pastors.

But to the average Joe, I believe some sing and enjoy the music because they think they are called to praise God, and they feel this is a strong representation of this.
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« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2011, 11:14:50 PM »

Yes they think it's most deserving because of the culturally ingrained legacy of Romanticism and the Great Awakening telling them it is the only correct way to worship.
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« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2011, 05:23:39 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.


So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2011, 05:39:55 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.


So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.

I don't think it matters why so much, it matters that it's become a formula that's rolled out across the globe because it works. That environment is the what is worshipped and stuck to like glue as if it were a prime spot on Saturday night T.V. This is what works, this type of show and this is the demographic who watch at this time.

There's nothing wrong with using rock music to worship or any type of music or style.
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« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2011, 06:09:30 PM »

So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.
Many of them do sense a lack of awe and reverence in Pentecostal/charismatic/contemporary worship. These are the ones who often find their way to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2011, 08:58:20 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.


So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.

I don't think it matters why so much, it matters that it's become a formula that's rolled out across the globe because it works. That environment is the what is worshipped and stuck to like glue as if it were a prime spot on Saturday night T.V. This is what works, this type of show and this is the demographic who watch at this time.

There's nothing wrong with using rock music to worship or any type of music or style.

It mattered alot in the OT how we worship. It just doesn't make sense to me that "anything goes" now. Sure people like it, because its entertaining. But the purpose of worship isn't for our entertainment, it is to worship God, and that is serious business.
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« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2011, 01:33:16 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.

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« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2011, 01:36:50 AM »

I agree. Many of them are very sincere, but there is a lot of brainwashing going on and even the pastors fall victim to it imo. It's a cultural legacy.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 01:39:43 AM by Volnutt » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2011, 02:27:09 AM »

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.

This struck me as rather poignant.
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« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2011, 02:32:42 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.



I agree with what you said here. I was responding to the criticism which implied that if it works do it (I gave my reasoning why I think it "works"), and that it is ok to worship God with rock and roll music; i.e. it doesn't matter which way we worship Him.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 02:33:15 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2011, 02:39:28 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.



I agree with what you said here. I was responding to the criticism which implied that if it works do it (I gave my reasoning why I think it "works"), and that it is ok to worship God with rock and roll music; i.e. it doesn't matter which way we worship Him.

That's alright. My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, I've subscribed to this thread and I noticed a lot of that sentiment being expressed here  (as it usually is whenever a discussion about Protestants is brought up).  I just wanted to say that I felt that we tend to give them a hard time.
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« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2011, 02:46:21 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.



I agree with what you said here. I was responding to the criticism which implied that if it works do it (I gave my reasoning why I think it "works"), and that it is ok to worship God with rock and roll music; i.e. it doesn't matter which way we worship Him.

That's alright. My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, I've subscribed to this thread and I noticed a lot of that sentiment being expressed here  (as it usually is whenever a discussion about Protestants is brought up).  I just wanted to say that I felt that we tend to give them a hard time.

In the interest of fairness, many of them feel we are Mary-worshipping idolaters who are irrevocably hell-bound, so the criticism isn't all one way, hah.
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« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2011, 02:50:15 AM »

In the interest of fairness, many of them feel we are Mary-worshipping idolaters who are irrevocably hell-bound, so the criticism isn't all one way, hah.

Eh, true.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 02:50:43 AM by brandb » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2011, 03:02:33 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.



I agree with what you said here. I was responding to the criticism which implied that if it works do it (I gave my reasoning why I think it "works"), and that it is ok to worship God with rock and roll music; i.e. it doesn't matter which way we worship Him.

That's alright. My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, I've subscribed to this thread and I noticed a lot of that sentiment being expressed here  (as it usually is whenever a discussion about Protestants is brought up).  I just wanted to say that I felt that we tend to give them a hard time.

In the interest of fairness, many of them feel we are Mary-worshipping idolaters who are irrevocably hell-bound, so the criticism isn't all one way, hah.

we don't necessarily need to return the favor though Wink
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« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2011, 06:43:50 AM »

I'm only saying that if someone comes from an "anything goes" style of Divine Liturgy, it must be difficult to make the change to Orthodoxy. (After one tires of rock bands, what becomes the next "hook", and the next?) Is the Word really falling on good soil and how do we, as Orthodox, help nurture it when a Pentecostal inquirer visits?
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« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2011, 06:58:10 AM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.


So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.

I don't think it matters why so much, it matters that it's become a formula that's rolled out across the globe because it works. That environment is the what is worshipped and stuck to like glue as if it were a prime spot on Saturday night T.V. This is what works, this type of show and this is the demographic who watch at this time.

There's nothing wrong with using rock music to worship or any type of music or style.

It mattered alot in the OT how we worship. It just doesn't make sense to me that "anything goes" now. Sure people like it, because its entertaining. But the purpose of worship isn't for our entertainment, it is to worship God, and that is serious business.

Many things mattered in the OT that are not still done in the same way today. Read the Psalms they are filled with musical instruments and even David danced before The Lord. I'm sure if Jesus were still walking the earth, there would be rituals put in place as to who could approach him, when and how but he's probably want to be in a pub somewhere with people asking them what they're doing with their lives.

There are lines you don't cross when gathering together to celebrate and take communion sure but it's the meaning behind what we're doing that's important and not letting the ritual of what we do, take on a life of its own. That goes for the more religious styles of service and the others that prefer to think of themselves as "free" from all that.
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« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2011, 09:41:45 AM »

There's nothing new in what I'm about to say, but ...

The Scriptures reveal what worship looks like in the noetic realm. The Seraphim and Cherubim, themselves beings of immense and probably unfathomable power, stand before the Throne and cover their faces, not being able to bear the radiance of God, all the while crying "holy, holy, holy, Lord Sabaoth!". Is this not a model for our own worship? If not, why not?

In worship, all mortal flesh must keep silence and all worldly cares be put away. In the presence of the King, our eyes are rightly downcast. How much more so when the King of Glory enters, escorted invisibly by the angelic orders?

I can't recall a single instance in the Scriptures where a theophany was accompanied by dance. For every "and David jumped around with some cymbals" quote you can pull out of the Scriptures, I promise you I can pull out another fifty involving sacrifice, incense, prostrations and repetitive hymnody.

Disclaimer: although this post follows FountainPen's, it's addressed to no-one in particular but just expresses some recent frustration I've been experiencing viz. "contemporary" worship, which is starting to really take off in Australia like never before.
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« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2011, 11:33:55 AM »

I know plenty of Orthodox (and some Greek-Catholic) that converted TO Pentecostalism.
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« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2011, 05:35:29 PM »

Quote
I can't recall a single instance in the Scriptures where a theophany was accompanied by dance. For every "and David jumped around with some cymbals" quote you can pull out of the Scriptures, I promise you I can pull out another fifty involving sacrifice, incense, prostrations and repetitive hymnody.

I asked a well known Protestant apologist about that recently and he told me that while it's not his main area of study, David was dancing because of victory over enemies and it certainly wasn't in the context of worship.
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« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2011, 06:16:02 PM »

Quote
I can't recall a single instance in the Scriptures where a theophany was accompanied by dance. For every "and David jumped around with some cymbals" quote you can pull out of the Scriptures, I promise you I can pull out another fifty involving sacrifice, incense, prostrations and repetitive hymnody.

I asked a well known Protestant apologist about that recently and he told me that while it's not his main area of study, David was dancing because of victory over enemies and it certainly wasn't in the context of worship.

... Sooo... God cursed Michal (for rebuking David) for fun?

(Note: I'm not sure how I feel about that passage either, but something's not lining up here).
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« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2011, 10:23:59 PM »

Again, the goal of religion is to give back eternal life and to help you get to Heaven. It's not getting fittnes, wisdom, and such.
We are inspired by teachings of Jesus and not by Sola Imagination since Jesus can give us both entrance to Heaven and eternal life.
Read Holy Liturgy of James and then see where you see shouting, clapping and what you are missing.
Well if anyone has energy, he may consider doing jogging after Holy Liturgy.
Protestantism does not offer you freedom since it already renounced for you Holy Communion for eternal life? What freedom is that WITHOUT ETERNAL LIFE?

This is addressed to all who have converted from Pentecostalism (or a similar denomination) to Orthodoxy.

To me, that in a physical way, usually by clapping, yelling, waving hands in the air, or some other type of physical expression.

On the other hand, Orthodoxy does not allow for such expressions. Did you find yourself feeling like "your hands were tied" so to speak, after you converted? Did you miss that feeling of "being in the spirit" where u could yell shout, clap, laugh, dance, and do all that stuff? I know some people really like to be physical when they worship, dancing, moving around, and all those things which i mentioned above, and I figured that people who tend to be this way are probably drawn to Pentecostalism for the allowance of freedom of personal expression.

So those of you who converted, how did you deal with this sudden restriction of expressing yourself during worship, and do you miss it?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 10:27:21 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2011, 11:43:03 PM »

I know plenty of Orthodox (and some Greek-Catholic) that converted TO Pentecostalism.

Just so you know. Eastern orthodox Church is not A Church is THE Church. So moving from orthodoxy into error can be a sin and since Protestantism has renouncedgreat  to confession the people can go to hell for it.

So will help if you know these people enough to let them know.
Ask them to read abc to eternal life search on google.
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« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2011, 12:31:30 AM »

Fr. Thom has a bit of an interesting take on the so called charismatic gifts within the context of Scripture and pastorally in light of his experience of folks making the switch from a more "charismatic" church to Orthodoxy.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia
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« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2011, 12:33:41 AM »

Again, the goal of religion is to give back eternal life and to help you get to Heaven. It's not getting fittnes, wisdom, and such.
We are inspired by teachings of Jesus and not by Sola Imagination since Jesus can give us both entrance to Heaven and eternal life.
Read Holy Liturgy of James and then see where you see shouting, clapping and what you are missing.
Well if anyone has energy, he may consider doing jogging after Holy Liturgy.
Protestantism does not offer you freedom since it already renounced for you Holy Communion for eternal life? What freedom is that WITHOUT ETERNAL LIFE?

On a day where I feel like hell when not asleep 20 hours, you have no idea how great it is to read your posts.

Glad you are back.
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« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2011, 06:44:03 AM »


I asked a well known Protestant apologist about that recently and he told me that while it's not his main area of study, David was dancing because of victory over enemies and it certainly wasn't in the context of worship.

... Sooo... God cursed Michal (for rebuking David) for fun?
 

Yes, why did God curse him?
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« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2011, 08:04:32 AM »

I think whatever David's motive, the fact remains that Michal felt it was beneath him to behave this way. She had too low a perception of the God of Israel and His mighty works on behalf of His people who he lead out of Egypt. Perhaps the fact that the curse was barrenness (the extinction of the line of Saul IIRC) implies she resented God for casting down her father and raising up the lowly shepherd boy rebel.
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« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2011, 06:11:30 PM »

I think whatever David's motive, the fact remains that Michal felt it was beneath him to behave this way. She had too low a perception of the God of Israel and His mighty works on behalf of His people who he lead out of Egypt. Perhaps the fact that the curse was barrenness (the extinction of the line of Saul IIRC) implies she resented God for casting down her father and raising up the lowly shepherd boy rebel.

Perhaps, but why curse her if her complaint against David was valid and (as others here have stated) what he did had nothing to do with praising/worshiping God? I'm not sure that God curses people who speak truth, no matter how resentful they are. And if she was wrong and David really was worshiping God, how does David become "the exception" to the rule?

I'm not really all that in favor of "dancing before the Lord" but I know some Pentecostals are; it doesn't have to be during DL, but is it ever right or is it always wrong? O_o
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« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2011, 06:47:57 PM »

I think whatever David's motive, the fact remains that Michal felt it was beneath him to behave this way. She had too low a perception of the God of Israel and His mighty works on behalf of His people who he lead out of Egypt. Perhaps the fact that the curse was barrenness (the extinction of the line of Saul IIRC) implies she resented God for casting down her father and raising up the lowly shepherd boy rebel.

Perhaps, but why curse her if her complaint against David was valid and (as others here have stated) what he did had nothing to do with praising/worshiping God? I'm not sure that God curses people who speak truth, no matter how resentful they are. And if she was wrong and David really was worshiping God, how does David become "the exception" to the rule?

I'm not really all that in favor of "dancing before the Lord" but I know some Pentecostals are; it doesn't have to be during DL, but is it ever right or is it always wrong? O_o
Based on the culture of the time, I'm not sure he was wrong to celebrate victory like that, especially considering how God fought for Israel (so perhaps Ninjally's point is not much of a distinction). One reason David might be an exception in this case is that Orthodoxy has always emphasized his status as one of the prophets, as Peter calls him in Acts 2 and as he and Solomon are portrayed on the Resurrection icon. The prophets often did unusual things under God's direction- Elijah's ascetic lifestyle, Isaiah walking around naked, etc. Perhaps David was in the Spirit of God in a way we are not meant to imitate?

Also, I just looked at the passage in 2 Samuel 6 and it does not actually say Michal was cursed it just says she had no children. So maybe she and David just never had sex after this?
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« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2011, 06:54:44 PM »

I don't think it matters why so much, it matters that it's become a formula that's rolled out across the globe because it works. That environment is the what is worshipped and stuck to like glue as if it were a prime spot on Saturday night T.V. This is what works, this type of show and this is the demographic who watch at this time.

There's nothing wrong with using rock music to worship or any type of music or style.


While I agree with your first paragraph, I respectfully (and strongly) disagree with your last sentence.




It mattered alot in the OT how we worship. It just doesn't make sense to me that "anything goes" now. Sure people like it, because its entertaining. But the purpose of worship isn't for our entertainment, it is to worship God, and that is serious business.

Exactly.   In the OT God had very specific instructions on how the worship space looked and how we were to worship Him.
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« Reply #74 on: October 03, 2011, 07:20:25 PM »

I think whatever David's motive, the fact remains that Michal felt it was beneath him to behave this way. She had too low a perception of the God of Israel and His mighty works on behalf of His people who he lead out of Egypt. Perhaps the fact that the curse was barrenness (the extinction of the line of Saul IIRC) implies she resented God for casting down her father and raising up the lowly shepherd boy rebel.

Perhaps, but why curse her if her complaint against David was valid and (as others here have stated) what he did had nothing to do with praising/worshiping God? I'm not sure that God curses people who speak truth, no matter how resentful they are. And if she was wrong and David really was worshiping God, how does David become "the exception" to the rule?

I'm not really all that in favor of "dancing before the Lord" but I know some Pentecostals are; it doesn't have to be during DL, but is it ever right or is it always wrong? O_o
Based on the culture of the time, I'm not sure he was wrong to celebrate victory like that, especially considering how God fought for Israel (so perhaps Ninjally's point is not much of a distinction). One reason David might be an exception in this case is that Orthodoxy has always emphasized his status as one of the prophets, as Peter calls him in Acts 2 and as he and Solomon are portrayed on the Resurrection icon. The prophets often did unusual things under God's direction- Elijah's ascetic lifestyle, Isaiah walking around naked, etc. Perhaps David was in the Spirit of God in a way we are not meant to imitate?

That's a likely possibility.

Quote
Also, I just looked at the passage in 2 Samuel 6 and it does not actually say Michal was cursed it just says she had no children. So maybe she and David just never had sex after this?

I've often wondered about that.... It would make sense considering Saul gave her to David, took her back and gave her to someone else, and then David took her back from said random guy. Not sure I'd sleep with anyone after that either.  Undecided
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« Reply #75 on: October 03, 2011, 07:34:43 PM »

I'm only saying that if someone comes from an "anything goes" style of Divine Liturgy, it must be difficult to make the change to Orthodoxy. (After one tires of rock bands, what becomes the next "hook", and the next?) Is the Word really falling on good soil and how do we, as Orthodox, help nurture it when a Pentecostal inquirer visits?

This is why the divine liturgy, if properly understood and celebrated, continues to build up our body and soul in Christ, and does not run dry, as many other methods of worship seem to do.
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« Reply #76 on: October 03, 2011, 07:44:48 PM »

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.

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« Reply #77 on: October 03, 2011, 08:02:19 PM »

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.



I don't recall anyone saying it was supposed to be the standard. Just why it should or shouldn't be done at all.
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« Reply #78 on: October 03, 2011, 08:11:45 PM »

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.



I don't recall anyone saying it was supposed to be the standard. Just why it should or shouldn't be done at all.

Personally, I don't have a problem with using instruments respectfully in worship. The Byzantine tradition doesn't particularly use them (other than voice), but others do/did and I don't have a problem with that. The Ethiopians even have a sort of swaying that they use which could seem dancelike. Yet, all of the above practices are firmly grounded in the liturgical category of worship. Jewish worship was liturgical, hence Christian worship, imo, should be liturgical.
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« Reply #79 on: October 03, 2011, 08:43:42 PM »

I've often wondered about that.... It would make sense considering Saul gave her to David, took her back and gave her to someone else, and then David took her back from said random guy. Not sure I'd sleep with anyone after that either.  Undecided
Me neither.
If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.



I don't recall anyone saying it was supposed to be the standard. Just why it should or shouldn't be done at all.
Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy. If someone really wanted to, I'm not sure it would be wrong to incorporate this into private worship with their priest's guidance, maybe during small group meetings or something. It's just the Liturgy is an extension of the Temple/Synagogue service and has developed in a particular way as a kind of formal "sacrifice of lips."
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« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2011, 08:59:37 PM »

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.



I don't recall anyone saying it was supposed to be the standard. Just why it should or shouldn't be done at all.

Personally, I don't have a problem with using instruments respectfully in worship. The Byzantine tradition doesn't particularly use them (other than voice), but others do/did and I don't have a problem with that. The Ethiopians even have a sort of swaying that they use which could seem dancelike. Yet, all of the above practices are firmly grounded in the liturgical category of worship. Jewish worship was liturgical, hence Christian worship, imo, should be liturgical.


Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy. If someone really wanted to, I'm not sure it would be wrong to incorporate this into private worship with their priest's guidance, maybe during small group meetings or something. It's just the Liturgy is an extension of the Temple/Synagogue service and has developed in a particular way as a kind of formal "sacrifice of lips."

Good points. Definitely understand this a lot better now.
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« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2011, 10:06:12 PM »

Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy.

Don't know if it qualifies as dancing, but your comment brought this thread to mind...

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« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2011, 12:41:40 AM »

Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy.

Don't know if it qualifies as dancing, but your comment brought this thread to mind...


That's what I was thinking of. Thanks.


And glad I could help, Brandy.  Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2011, 02:00:18 AM »

Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy.

Don't know if it qualifies as dancing, but your comment brought this thread to mind...


That's what I was thinking of. Thanks.


And glad I could help, Brandy.  Smiley

I'm happy to have the help! Cheesy
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« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2011, 07:44:37 AM »

I believe that there are canons against some type of dancing.
In Romania adding instruments to worship or dancing is a definitive no no in my understanding.
In the end, lets not forget, worship equals pleasing God not people.
Is the dancing directed at God or directed at pleasing and entertaining people? Or tremor like in pentecostalism, tremor that is found in
shamanism too when they contact sick angels? Dervils do dancing like spinning when they contact sick angels.

Can anyone respond to this using ancient books like Book of Enoch, Cave of Treasuries:
Who invented musical instruments?
Why?
Why Noah was upset with his son?

In Rusia a girl danced with a sacred object and turned into stone, marble.
I try to rememeber where I found linked blasphemy with instrumental music and dancing at worship.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe one reason orthodox don't let faithfull go to other denominations is that because of Sola
Imagination what they do may be blasphemy and thus you don't want to be part of it. Or I may be wrong.

True, David sung Psalms with musical instruments however MAYBE this was not worship. I am 100% behind this, protestants try as much as possible to please God, however they don't know how. Protestantism may be a punishment, I mean moving to it from Orthodoxy of first 1000 years when all Europe was orthodox. Defending it means defending punishment means defending a Christianity WITHOUT food for eternal life John 6:53-54, baptism of children, confession etc. Speaking for orthodoxy means to ask for punishment to end. History is a valid science and 2000 years of historical documents even if not inspired by God, can shed the light on how to please God. Pastors can become orthodox priests and give full christianity to their people if 50% christianity is beautifull 100% is awesome.


Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy.

Don't know if it qualifies as dancing, but your comment brought this thread to mind...


That's what I was thinking of. Thanks.


And glad I could help, Brandy.  Smiley

I'm happy to have the help! Cheesy
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« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2011, 07:52:38 AM »

Can you think God is pleased by dancing movements?
I am NOT going to argue about dancing in the DL or Vespers or any worship service for that matter, but Pasadi, don't you think that there are many forms of dance that please God?

(Why I am doing this?)

Not talking about Pentecostals either. I'm just talking about dance. It's a beautiful art form and one that I believe can "please" God.
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« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2011, 08:32:27 AM »


Can anyone respond to this using ancient books like Book of Enoch, Cave of Treasuries:
Who invented musical instruments?
Why?
From the OSB, Genesis 4:21: "His brother's name was Jubal. He is the one who invented the psaltery and harp." (SAAS)

We are not told why.

Are there any cultures that do not use instruments and dance for non-religious purposes? (Other than those that may have expressly forbidden them in order to remain separate from the prevailing culture, such as the Puritans.)

I must say I find it strange to chant in our services "Praise Him with the psaltery and harp", yet we are prohibited from doing so. I have had to rationalize that as, "It's OK to use instruments (and dance) in private worship, but not in the corporate liturgical life of the Church in order to avoid excess and scandal."
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« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2011, 08:56:12 AM »


Can anyone respond to this using ancient books like Book of Enoch, Cave of Treasuries:
Who invented musical instruments?
Why?
From the OSB, Genesis 4:21: "His brother's name was Jubal. He is the one who invented the psaltery and harp." (SAAS)

We are not told why.

Are there any cultures that do not use instruments and dance for non-religious purposes? (Other than those that may have expressly forbidden them in order to remain separate from the prevailing culture, such as the Puritans.)

I must say I find it strange to chant in our services "Praise Him with the psaltery and harp", yet we are prohibited from doing so. I have had to rationalize that as, "It's OK to use instruments (and dance) in private worship, but not in the corporate liturgical life of the Church in order to avoid excess and scandal."

Praise him with timbrel and dance, praise him with stringed instrument and flute.

I think when any of the above activities are done and the emphasis starts to drift towards the performer/performance and not God, that is where the problem lies.
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« Reply #88 on: October 04, 2011, 12:25:43 PM »

Can you think God is pleased by dancing movements?
(Why I am doing this?)

Why would anyone indeed argue with pasadi?

And your last avatar and tagline was your best.
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« Reply #89 on: October 04, 2011, 12:31:26 PM »

Can you think God is pleased by dancing movements?
(Why I am doing this?)

Why would anyone indeed argue with pasadi?

And your last avatar and tagline was your best.
The Korean one? It wasn't the exact one that I wanted, so I am still looking for it.

I still want Pasadi to answer meeeee.
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