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Author Topic: Orthodox who have converted from Pentecostalism  (Read 3966 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 27, 2011, 04:04:48 PM »

This is addressed to all who have converted from Pentecostalism (or a similar denomination) to Orthodoxy.

To me, these seem to have diametrically opposed worship traditions. Pentecostalism seems to emphasize being in the moment and 'feeling the spirit' and expressing that in a physical way, usually by clapping, yelling, waving hands in the air, or some other type of physical expression.

On the other hand, Orthodoxy does not allow for such expressions. Did you find yourself feeling like "your hands were tied" so to speak, after you converted? Did you miss that feeling of "being in the spirit" where u could yell shout, clap, laugh, dance, and do all that stuff? I know some people really like to be physical when they worship, dancing, moving around, and all those things which i mentioned above, and I figured that people who tend to be this way are probably drawn to Pentecostalism for the allowance of freedom of personal expression.

So those of you who converted, how did you deal with this sudden restriction of expressing yourself during worship, and do you miss it?
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 04:07:28 PM »

No way. I thought I would miss it, but I do not miss it for one second. I'm not sure what happened, but the Orthodox services complete me (that is when I'm not being completely distracted by the 1,000,000 thoughts that take residence in my mind). I do not even have the desire to dance anymore.

I can't explain the drastic change, though. Maybe it's God. Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 04:12:50 PM »

I find both forms to be hyper-sensory.
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 04:28:19 PM »

No way. I thought I would miss it, but I do not miss it for one second. I'm not sure what happened, but the Orthodox services complete me (that is when I'm not being completely distracted by the 1,000,000 thoughts that take residence in my mind). I do not even have the desire to dance anymore.

I can't explain the drastic change, though. Maybe it's God. Smiley

Interesting. Do you know any other Pentecostals who converted to Odoxy and who had a similar experience? Do you know any Pentecostals who critique Odoxy as not allowing one to "express themselves" in worship?
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 04:29:38 PM »

I find both forms to be hyper-sensory.

It is different though, isn't it? Isn't Orthodoxy more "passive" in that all your senses are stimulated by icons, incense, sound etc. But you are not physically reacting to that stimuli?
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 04:38:42 PM »

i went from atheist to methodist to charismatic/pentecostal to anglican to orthodox, checking out the catholic church on the way and found that bowing, making the sign of the cross and lifting hands in supplication were more than enough movements.

i think i was looking for a deeper experience with all the movement, and having found that experience in Holy Communion, i was more than satisfied.
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 05:55:44 PM »

I've never been so physically active in worship since becoming Orthodox (coming from a Lutheran denomination)! Walking around during the services to help with congregational singing instructions, lighting candles, crossing myself, kissing icons, bowing, kneeling, touching the floor, full prostrations......not to mention nearly shouting "Christ is Risen" during Pascha!
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 05:57:40 PM »

.not to mention nearly shouting "Christ is Risen" during Pascha!
YES. I do have to say, almost yelling "Alithos anesti!" in joy was one of my favorite parts of the Pascha DL, vespers, and the services following. It produced almost the same kind of feeling, hopefully with less crazy.
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 06:04:01 PM »

my favorite scene from Borat
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 07:26:47 PM »

I find both forms to be hyper-sensory.

I agree.  Also, both do emphasis the experience of God rather than just bookish knowledge of God.  It just looks different.  And Pentecostals (and Charismatics -which I came from) are not afraid to physically express our devotion to God.  Again, it just looks different. 
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2011, 01:22:00 AM »

I'm trying to explain to a pentecostal friend this relationship, but he doesn't get it. I take him to liturgy and most people only cross themselves and few sing along. So I guess from his perspective we seem rather passive, but i'm sure at some parishes people are moving around bowing, crossing, venerating icons, prostrating, etc. At my parish people just don't move around much, lol. He just thinks its all so boring compared to the services he goes to...oh well...  Tongue
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2011, 01:35:52 AM »

He just thinks its all so boring compared to the services he goes to...
Sounds like someone needs to grow up and realize it isn't all about him.
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2011, 02:55:13 AM »

Pentecostalism is a charismatic protestant denomination. I was not formally a Pentecostal, but my church had charismatic elements. Speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy--these practices were considered okay as long as they did not contradict Reformed theology. That's the thing about Korean churches: you can be a Charismatic and a Calvinist. I think folks like John Piper are okay with it, too.

Anyway, being a charismatic Christian is about the charism of the Holy Spirit. The only way to  be a REAL charismatic is to be an Orthodox Christian, because it's in the Orthodox Church that we receive the chrism and charism of the Holy Spirit.  Smiley

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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 03:13:34 AM »

Pentecostalism is a charismatic protestant denomination. I was not formally a Pentecostal, but my church had charismatic elements. Speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy--these practices were considered okay as long as they did not contradict Reformed theology. That's the thing about Korean churches: you can be a Charismatic and a Calvinist. I think folks like John Piper are okay with it, too.

Anyway, being a charismatic Christian is about the charism of the Holy Spirit. The only way to  be a REAL charismatic is to be an Orthodox Christian, because it's in the Orthodox Church that we receive the chrism and charism of the Holy Spirit.  Smiley


Yeah, charismatic Calvinism was begun by Jack Deere in the 70s. He wrote a book called Surprised by the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 06:39:39 AM »

You might be interested in reading some stories of Pentecostal converts to Othodoxy from here:

 http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/category/convert-stories/non-orthodox-christians/pentecostals/
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2011, 11:01:41 AM »

I'm trying to explain to a pentecostal friend this relationship, but he doesn't get it. I take him to liturgy and most people only cross themselves and few sing along. So I guess from his perspective we seem rather passive, but i'm sure at some parishes people are moving around bowing, crossing, venerating icons, prostrating, etc. At my parish people just don't move around much, lol. He just thinks its all so boring compared to the services he goes to...oh well...  Tongue

Snap! Most of my family are still tongue-tittering hand wavers and i have always found it draws to much attention to yourself and have never felt comfotable or "lead" for that matter, to throw caution to the wind and do a dervish. It's competitive, self-serving, acting out and while i'm sure most people might be sincere in their expressions of praise to the Lord, i don't think it's a great environment especially for emotionally unstable or needy people. All that gentle background music in all the same familiar chords, just enough to manipulate the emotions enough to shout "YES! I'M HERE LORD, I WILL LIVE BY FAITH AND GIVE UP MY PERFECTLY GOOD JOB TO BE CALLED AS A LEADER INTO MINISTRY" leaving the wife and 4 kids looking astonished because a conversation about the practicalities of such a decision would have been nice. It shifts the focus from God and on to who is the most 'free' in their worship or the most 'spiritual' or those who have a 'calling' into ministry.
Both your friend and my family consider a service to be "boring" compared to the instant gratification you get from being entertained in a charismatic service. That's their 'fix' for the week, the show went well, plenty to talk about <usually other people - just for prayer you understand> grr kill me now.

Even Anglicans are heading in that direction.
I don't miss it at all, what a mess. Delusional and dangerous!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 11:04:18 AM by FountainPen » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2011, 11:12:12 AM »

To add on to Fountain Pen's response --

I had a friend that was really curious about our conversion. She was raised Pentecostal, and honestly doesn't know anything else besides that. After hearing our stories, she kept talking about wanting to attend DL with us.

I took her to visit our church, just to look at it and talk to the priest for a minute, and she NEVER said another word about coming with us again. (I personally think the icons scared her.) I casually asked her what she thought one day, and she said that she really liked the priest and could see us there. She told me that she was having problems with her church (they were apparently too taxing spiritually) and wanted to look somewhere else. I asked her if she considered going to a more traditional Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist church just to check it out.

She paused. "No," she said. "The other church exhausts me, but I couldn't have the same service over and over again. I need things to be changing constantly."

I didn't know what to say to that. I've been there. My husband and I  (while we were dating) fought over which denomination to join and I didn't want to leave non-denominational worship. I didn't see that Orthodoxy would fulfill me. And it has, in spades. But you need to be willing to step outside and try it first. And sometimes it doesn't click the first time, or the second, or the third.
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2011, 11:17:33 AM »

To add on to Fountain Pen's response --

I had a friend that was really curious about our conversion. She was raised Pentecostal, and honestly doesn't know anything else besides that. After hearing our stories, she kept talking about wanting to attend DL with us.

I took her to visit our church, just to look at it and talk to the priest for a minute, and she NEVER said another word about coming with us again. (I personally think the icons scared her.) I casually asked her what she thought one day, and she said that she really liked the priest and could see us there. She told me that she was having problems with her church (they were apparently too taxing spiritually) and wanted to look somewhere else. I asked her if she considered going to a more traditional Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist church just to check it out.

She paused. "No," she said. "The other church exhausts me, but I couldn't have the same service over and over again. I need things to be changing constantly."

I didn't know what to say to that. I've been there. My husband and I  (while we were dating) fought over which denomination to join and I didn't want to leave non-denominational worship. I didn't see that Orthodoxy would fulfill me. And it has, in spades. But you need to be willing to step outside and try it first. And sometimes it doesn't click the first time, or the second, or the third.

This is SO true.  Most of my Protestant friends are completely unwilling to step outside the box.  They're unhappy where they are but - Liturgy??? Orthodoxy??? Icons??? no way.  It's weird because many/most of these friends are the artsy and/or musical types who love experimenting... but apparently Orthodoxy is just too way outside their personal mainstream.  It makes me sad and frustrated.

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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2011, 12:23:00 PM »

I have a reverse example. A former student of mine, who used to be very interested in biology (especially evolution), converted from an extreme right-wing Methodism (Holiness Movement) to Orthodoxy; she was baptised in a ROCOR parish. But then she enlisted in the US Army and was deployed to the Middle East. There, she met a group of other troops who were the so-called Oneness Pentecostals. They lured her to convert to that faith.

It's really sad because these Oneness people are heretics; they actually repeat the age-old Sabellian heresy, or "modalism" (even though they deny it). My former student - who remains my friend via Facebook - says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible. I doubt, however, that it was the case. More likely, I suspect, it's rock music and adrenaline rush... combined with a certain posttraumatic stress disorder. (She saw a number of her buddies killed by improvised explosive devices.)
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2011, 12:45:15 PM »

...says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible...

I recently had a similar discussion with someone, and when I pointed out this quote (2 Peter 1:20):


Quote
 
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

International Standard Version (©2008)
First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American King James Version
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American Standard Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Bible in Basic English
Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Darby Bible Translation
knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,

English Revised Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Webster's Bible Translation
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Weymouth New Testament
But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting;

World English Bible
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

Young's Literal Translation
this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,

She just ignored me, since I guess her own 'private interpretation' was to ignore the prohibition against private interpretations.
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2011, 02:02:37 PM »

I had attended a 4 Square Pentecostal Church for about 8 months prior to coming to Orthodoxy. It was a mixed bag of somewhat familiar evangelical Protestantism & Pentecostal stuff; some of the former was substantive for what it was & the latter I never took to in its expression. They had links to the likes of the late Dave Wilkerson who did some exemplary work in the streets of NYC for almost 50 years. Interestingly they would practice silent or at least very quiet prayer on Saturday evenings & the pastor would say "Lord Jesus" in a whispered, orderly repetition. Overall it was a mixed bag; sometimes inspiring & once in while a little scary. I miss nothing of the worship or the doctrinal problems,  but a couple of times did participate in street ministry in the Bronx etc. which was administered in generosity giving food & drink &  offering a dignified (not forced) ministry to any desiring it. Of course we have plenty of charitable work in our Orthodox church and I hope a ministry like Fr.  Justin's: FOCUS could take hold or more direct link established to it in our Orthodox parish.
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2011, 02:10:36 PM »

To add on to Fountain Pen's response --

I had a friend that was really curious about our conversion. She was raised Pentecostal, and honestly doesn't know anything else besides that. After hearing our stories, she kept talking about wanting to attend DL with us.

I took her to visit our church, just to look at it and talk to the priest for a minute, and she NEVER said another word about coming with us again. (I personally think the icons scared her.) I casually asked her what she thought one day, and she said that she really liked the priest and could see us there. She told me that she was having problems with her church (they were apparently too taxing spiritually) and wanted to look somewhere else. I asked her if she considered going to a more traditional Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist church just to check it out.

She paused. "No," she said. "The other church exhausts me, but I couldn't have the same service over and over again. I need things to be changing constantly."

I didn't know what to say to that. I've been there. My husband and I  (while we were dating) fought over which denomination to join and I didn't want to leave non-denominational worship. I didn't see that Orthodoxy would fulfill me. And it has, in spades. But you need to be willing to step outside and try it first. And sometimes it doesn't click the first time, or the second, or the third.

This is SO true.  Most of my Protestant friends are completely unwilling to step outside the box.  They're unhappy where they are but - Liturgy??? Orthodoxy??? Icons??? no way.  It's weird because many/most of these friends are the artsy and/or musical types who love experimenting... but apparently Orthodoxy is just too way outside their personal mainstream.  It makes me sad and frustrated.



Princessmommy, i do have those reservations about icons and liturgy etc. Mostly because it's hard wired into me that the focus should always be God and never others <icons> and that ritual repetition of words that don't emerge spontaneously from within you, via the Spirit are 'religious'. That's hard to go against, it's drip fed into the culture so even now to me, it seems wrong. Without even looking into it, my reaction is no way. It's hard to be open minded about it even though i'm trying to be.
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2011, 02:16:35 PM »

...says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible...

I recently had a similar discussion with someone, and when I pointed out this quote (2 Peter 1:20):


Quote
 
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

International Standard Version (©2008)
First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American King James Version
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American Standard Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Bible in Basic English
Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Darby Bible Translation
knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,

English Revised Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Webster's Bible Translation
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Weymouth New Testament
But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting;

World English Bible
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

Young's Literal Translation
this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,

She just ignored me, since I guess her own 'private interpretation' was to ignore the prohibition against private interpretations.


Any die hard Charismatic would just tell you that it's not their interpretation but the Spirit working through them. You can't argue with that, the Spirit is the teacher of all things and He lives in us.
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2011, 02:29:33 PM »

Princessmommy, i do have those reservations about icons and liturgy etc. Mostly because it's hard wired into me that the focus should always be God and never others <icons> and that ritual repetition of words that don't emerge spontaneously from within you, via the Spirit are 'religious'. That's hard to go against, it's drip fed into the culture so even now to me, it seems wrong. Without even looking into it, my reaction is no way. It's hard to be open minded about it even though i'm trying to be.

This is very understandable, and most of us who converted at one time or another may recall that we too once looked upon Orthodoxy as something bizarre, strange, seemingly wrong, foreign, etc.  The Orthodox Church is not a cult that tries to get you to submit to it instantly "or else".  In most Orthodox churches, once a person says they want to become Orthodox they are informed that they will have to wait, sometimes a year, sometimes six months, sometimes three years.  Priests want to make sure a person is serious, that they understand what they are doing and why, and have had time to become familiar with life and worship in an Orthodox church before receiving a person into the community.  Feel free to ask all the questions you want, and you are sure to get many responses on this list.  Even better, contact an Orthodox priest near you and meet with him.  Feel free to be very honest with your reservations and skepticism.  For the many of us who at one time felt and thought as you do now, today we can clearly see how wrong we were, but for most of us it was a long journey and took a great deal of prayer, study, dialogue, struggle, etc.  While many of us may be eager to share our own journeys with you, and while it is helpful to read about the journey others have taken, nobody can make your journey for you.  Everyone must seek out the truth for themselves.  So, don’t be ashamed of your questions, but seek the truth with sincerity.  Realizing that Orthodoxy and Pentecostalism are in many ways in great contradiction to one another, try to find out why that is, what are the sources and foundations of the ways in which each body worships, prays, and believes.  Do not accept things simply because you are told to accept them, but also do not reject things either simply because they don’t agree with what you have been formerly taught.  As the Lord said, if you seek you will find.    
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2011, 03:05:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and  Savior Jesus Christ!

This is addressed to all who have converted from Pentecostalism (or a similar denomination) to Orthodoxy.

To me, these seem to have diametrically opposed worship traditions. Pentecostalism seems to emphasize being in the moment and 'feeling the spirit' and expressing that in a physical way, usually by clapping, yelling, waving hands in the air, or some other type of physical expression.


What about prostrations? And chanting during the Divine Liturgy? Or Hymns? Orthodox worship is a physical (if not more so) than other Christian worship, the difference is that it is strictly choreographed to achieve a unison spiritual experience, whereas Pentecostals "are just winging it" Wink




So those of you who converted, how did you deal with this sudden restriction of expressing yourself during worship, and do you miss it?

Isn't that what the "Amen", the "Alleluia" and the "Lord Have His Mercy" call and repeats are for?

Besides, we're not that different, we even have Orthodox snake handling Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2011, 04:30:47 PM »

...says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible...

I recently had a similar discussion with someone, and when I pointed out this quote (2 Peter 1:20):


Quote
 
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

International Standard Version (©2008)
First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American King James Version
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American Standard Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Bible in Basic English
Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Darby Bible Translation
knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,

English Revised Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Webster's Bible Translation
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Weymouth New Testament
But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting;

World English Bible
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

Young's Literal Translation
this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,

She just ignored me, since I guess her own 'private interpretation' was to ignore the prohibition against private interpretations.


Any die hard Charismatic would just tell you that it's not their interpretation but the Spirit working through them. You can't argue with that, the Spirit is the teacher of all things and He lives in us.

But I would reply with, "Is the Holy Spirit the author of confusion? Why so many different interpretations by all those who claim to come to it by inspiration of the Spirit?"
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2011, 04:31:24 PM »



Princessmommy, i do have those reservations about icons and liturgy etc. Mostly because it's hard wired into me that the focus should always be God and never others <icons> and that ritual repetition of words that don't emerge spontaneously from within you, via the Spirit are 'religious'. That's hard to go against, it's drip fed into the culture so even now to me, it seems wrong. Without even looking into it, my reaction is no way. It's hard to be open minded about it even though i'm trying to be.

I do understand, but something is drawing you and you're open enough to pursue it and not just put up with the status quo.  I didn't go directly from the Charismatic movement to Orthodoxy.  I climbed the liturgical ladder.   I think everyone who begins to come to Orthodoxy has a stumbling block or two.  Each one is different.  Icons weren't an issue for me.  I'd had one since I was 17 and had visited St. Vlads in NY.   But there have been other issues to get through.   Keep praying and keep attending services.   I don't know how long you've been inquiring, but have you been through an Orthodox Lent?   There's so much depth and layer upon layer in each of the services, but most especially during the period of Pre-Lent and Lent.  
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2011, 05:48:28 PM »

...says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible...

I recently had a similar discussion with someone, and when I pointed out this quote (2 Peter 1:20):


Quote
 
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

International Standard Version (©2008)
First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American King James Version
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American Standard Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Bible in Basic English
Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Darby Bible Translation
knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,

English Revised Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Webster's Bible Translation
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Weymouth New Testament
But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting;

World English Bible
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

Young's Literal Translation
this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,

She just ignored me, since I guess her own 'private interpretation' was to ignore the prohibition against private interpretations.


Any die hard Charismatic would just tell you that it's not their interpretation but the Spirit working through them. You can't argue with that, the Spirit is the teacher of all things and He lives in us.

But I would reply with, "Is the Holy Spirit the author of confusion? Why so many different interpretations by all those who claim to come to it by inspiration of the Spirit?"

I agree with your point but i know from experience that each denomination thinks they alone have the majority of the revealed truth and that those who are in dispute, though tolerated in Christian love of course, are clearly not listening to the correct spirit. Which doesn't change the fact that their group seemingly has the authority via the Spirit, to interpret. They believe everyone else is wrong or at the very least, not as 'right' as they are.
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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2011, 01:23:00 AM »

I agree with your point but i know from experience that each denomination thinks they alone have the majority of the revealed truth and that those who are in dispute, though tolerated in Christian love of course, are clearly not listening to the correct spirit. Which doesn't change the fact that their group seemingly has the authority via the Spirit, to interpret. They believe everyone else is wrong or at the very least, not as 'right' as they are.

I know what you mean. When I heard a few Orthodox say "It is the original church. Nothing has been changed," I thought it was just strange, naive immigrant thinking. They all say they are the original church.

But this -- along with the icon of Christ in Majesty -- was eventually to lead to my decision to become Orthodox. (I asked my priest to accept us formally as Catechumens only yesterday.)

It is true -- they all claim to have the closest ties to the Church of Acts.

Yet, who claims:
to have unbroken Apostolic succession
to be the source of the Canon
to teach precisely what Christ taught the Apostles
to have Jesus Christ as its head

Without:
a supreme Vicar
worship of the Mother of God
a schism happening every year or so
disorderly worship

While offering:

healing for the spiritual sick
the fullness of the Presence of Christ
unfathomably profound (and utterly applicable) understanding of the Scriptures
liturgical beauty that exists only for worship of our Creator, Savior and Comforter,

and,
artistic works that present the truth of Christ, and the fruits of lives lived in Christ, for all who wish to gain holiness by turning one's own eyes to truth.

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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2011, 01:31:20 AM »

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.
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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2011, 01:52:34 AM »

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

Exactly.
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« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2011, 02:30:43 AM »

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I've heard there are some who consider he to somehow be a 4th person of the Trinity, similar to Wisdom.
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2011, 02:35:51 AM »

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I've heard there are some who consider he to somehow be a 4th person of the Trinity, similar to Wisdom.
Bulgakov came close but later repented. In the RCC, Maximilian Kolbe and the Army of Immaculata call her a "quasi-incarnation" of the Spirit.
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2011, 03:19:52 AM »

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I've heard there are some who consider he to somehow be a 4th person of the Trinity, similar to Wisdom.
Bulgakov came close but later repented. In the RCC, Maximilian Kolbe and the Army of Immaculata call her a "quasi-incarnation" of the Spirit.

sounds dangerously close to a deity to me.
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2011, 04:26:55 AM »

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I've heard there are some who consider he to somehow be a 4th person of the Trinity, similar to Wisdom.
Bulgakov came close but later repented. In the RCC, Maximilian Kolbe and the Army of Immaculata call her a "quasi-incarnation" of the Spirit.

sounds dangerously close to a deity to me.
Indeed.  Undecided
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« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2011, 05:04:06 AM »

Maybe this old thread I found will help someone. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12169.0.html
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2011, 09:13:24 AM »

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I was addressing FountainPen with his/her protestant background, who was coming from a Pentecostal background, and was probably therefore suspicious about Medieval Catholicism's excesses -- eg. an exaggerated cult of Mary. I was laying out what Orthodoxy believes and practices, and does not believe and practice.

Veneration of the Theotokos can become idolatry when the "focus" ceases to be on the Incarnation.

Orthodoxy doesn't do that. Only Orthodoxy "understands" the Theotokos properly.

That was my point.

Boy, have I made a mess of this!
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« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2011, 02:15:40 PM »

Maybe this old thread I found will help someone. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12169.0.html

thanks for the link!  Cool
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2011, 02:24:27 PM »

You're welcome.
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« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2011, 05:28:40 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!
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« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2011, 05:35:07 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?
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« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2011, 08:54:19 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?
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« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2011, 09:13:01 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.
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« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2011, 09:21:47 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.
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« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2011, 09:24:09 PM »

The Divine Liturgy is intended to be a type or an icon of the Heavenly Jerusalem.
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« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2011, 09:31:07 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.

Perhaps to some of the pastors.

But to the average Joe, I believe some sing and enjoy the music because they think they are called to praise God, and they feel this is a strong representation of this.
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« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2011, 11:14:50 PM »

Yes they think it's most deserving because of the culturally ingrained legacy of Romanticism and the Great Awakening telling them it is the only correct way to worship.
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« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2011, 05:23:39 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.


So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2011, 05:39:55 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.


So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.

I don't think it matters why so much, it matters that it's become a formula that's rolled out across the globe because it works. That environment is the what is worshipped and stuck to like glue as if it were a prime spot on Saturday night T.V. This is what works, this type of show and this is the demographic who watch at this time.

There's nothing wrong with using rock music to worship or any type of music or style.
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« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2011, 06:09:30 PM »

So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.
Many of them do sense a lack of awe and reverence in Pentecostal/charismatic/contemporary worship. These are the ones who often find their way to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2011, 08:58:20 PM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.


So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.

I don't think it matters why so much, it matters that it's become a formula that's rolled out across the globe because it works. That environment is the what is worshipped and stuck to like glue as if it were a prime spot on Saturday night T.V. This is what works, this type of show and this is the demographic who watch at this time.

There's nothing wrong with using rock music to worship or any type of music or style.

It mattered alot in the OT how we worship. It just doesn't make sense to me that "anything goes" now. Sure people like it, because its entertaining. But the purpose of worship isn't for our entertainment, it is to worship God, and that is serious business.
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« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2011, 01:33:16 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.

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« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2011, 01:36:50 AM »

I agree. Many of them are very sincere, but there is a lot of brainwashing going on and even the pastors fall victim to it imo. It's a cultural legacy.
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« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2011, 02:27:09 AM »

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.

This struck me as rather poignant.
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« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2011, 02:32:42 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.



I agree with what you said here. I was responding to the criticism which implied that if it works do it (I gave my reasoning why I think it "works"), and that it is ok to worship God with rock and roll music; i.e. it doesn't matter which way we worship Him.
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« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2011, 02:39:28 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.



I agree with what you said here. I was responding to the criticism which implied that if it works do it (I gave my reasoning why I think it "works"), and that it is ok to worship God with rock and roll music; i.e. it doesn't matter which way we worship Him.

That's alright. My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, I've subscribed to this thread and I noticed a lot of that sentiment being expressed here  (as it usually is whenever a discussion about Protestants is brought up).  I just wanted to say that I felt that we tend to give them a hard time.
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« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2011, 02:46:21 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.



I agree with what you said here. I was responding to the criticism which implied that if it works do it (I gave my reasoning why I think it "works"), and that it is ok to worship God with rock and roll music; i.e. it doesn't matter which way we worship Him.

That's alright. My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, I've subscribed to this thread and I noticed a lot of that sentiment being expressed here  (as it usually is whenever a discussion about Protestants is brought up).  I just wanted to say that I felt that we tend to give them a hard time.

In the interest of fairness, many of them feel we are Mary-worshipping idolaters who are irrevocably hell-bound, so the criticism isn't all one way, hah.
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« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2011, 02:50:15 AM »

In the interest of fairness, many of them feel we are Mary-worshipping idolaters who are irrevocably hell-bound, so the criticism isn't all one way, hah.

Eh, true.
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« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2011, 03:02:33 AM »

I think it's time to stop with the "Protestants always equate worship with entertainment" or "Protestants just worship based on how they feel" low blows at Protestant Christians. Yes, for some (okay, a lot) it's true but for many (like myself) it's not. Things are not always what they look like. Just because other Christians don't worship God properly doesn't mean they aren't trying to worship/or don't want to truly worship him. Why judge the masses instead of the select few who control them?

Which is really where the problem lies: there are pastors who stand at the pulpit and trick people who truly desire to serve God into thinking that truly wrong ways to worship God are right. Add to that the fact that most protestants don't even know who/what the Orthodox Church is...

Point is, a lot Protestants desire to worship/please God just as much as the Orthodox do. Thanks to ignorance and deception, they don't know how.



I agree with what you said here. I was responding to the criticism which implied that if it works do it (I gave my reasoning why I think it "works"), and that it is ok to worship God with rock and roll music; i.e. it doesn't matter which way we worship Him.

That's alright. My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, I've subscribed to this thread and I noticed a lot of that sentiment being expressed here  (as it usually is whenever a discussion about Protestants is brought up).  I just wanted to say that I felt that we tend to give them a hard time.

In the interest of fairness, many of them feel we are Mary-worshipping idolaters who are irrevocably hell-bound, so the criticism isn't all one way, hah.

we don't necessarily need to return the favor though Wink
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« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2011, 06:43:50 AM »

I'm only saying that if someone comes from an "anything goes" style of Divine Liturgy, it must be difficult to make the change to Orthodoxy. (After one tires of rock bands, what becomes the next "hook", and the next?) Is the Word really falling on good soil and how do we, as Orthodox, help nurture it when a Pentecostal inquirer visits?
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« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2011, 06:58:10 AM »

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.


So it's to bring the Heavenly realm down to the secular level of the world instead of lifting up the secular to the Heavenly? What about honoring God with Beauty in the liturgy? Is reverence no longer relevant? I can see it would be difficult for Penecostal worshippers to convert if this is how they feel about Divine Liturgy.

I don't think it matters why so much, it matters that it's become a formula that's rolled out across the globe because it works. That environment is the what is worshipped and stuck to like glue as if it were a prime spot on Saturday night T.V. This is what works, this type of show and this is the demographic who watch at this time.

There's nothing wrong with using rock music to worship or any type of music or style.

It mattered alot in the OT how we worship. It just doesn't make sense to me that "anything goes" now. Sure people like it, because its entertaining. But the purpose of worship isn't for our entertainment, it is to worship God, and that is serious business.

Many things mattered in the OT that are not still done in the same way today. Read the Psalms they are filled with musical instruments and even David danced before The Lord. I'm sure if Jesus were still walking the earth, there would be rituals put in place as to who could approach him, when and how but he's probably want to be in a pub somewhere with people asking them what they're doing with their lives.

There are lines you don't cross when gathering together to celebrate and take communion sure but it's the meaning behind what we're doing that's important and not letting the ritual of what we do, take on a life of its own. That goes for the more religious styles of service and the others that prefer to think of themselves as "free" from all that.
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« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2011, 09:41:45 AM »

There's nothing new in what I'm about to say, but ...

The Scriptures reveal what worship looks like in the noetic realm. The Seraphim and Cherubim, themselves beings of immense and probably unfathomable power, stand before the Throne and cover their faces, not being able to bear the radiance of God, all the while crying "holy, holy, holy, Lord Sabaoth!". Is this not a model for our own worship? If not, why not?

In worship, all mortal flesh must keep silence and all worldly cares be put away. In the presence of the King, our eyes are rightly downcast. How much more so when the King of Glory enters, escorted invisibly by the angelic orders?

I can't recall a single instance in the Scriptures where a theophany was accompanied by dance. For every "and David jumped around with some cymbals" quote you can pull out of the Scriptures, I promise you I can pull out another fifty involving sacrifice, incense, prostrations and repetitive hymnody.

Disclaimer: although this post follows FountainPen's, it's addressed to no-one in particular but just expresses some recent frustration I've been experiencing viz. "contemporary" worship, which is starting to really take off in Australia like never before.
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« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2011, 11:33:55 AM »

I know plenty of Orthodox (and some Greek-Catholic) that converted TO Pentecostalism.
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« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2011, 05:35:29 PM »

Quote
I can't recall a single instance in the Scriptures where a theophany was accompanied by dance. For every "and David jumped around with some cymbals" quote you can pull out of the Scriptures, I promise you I can pull out another fifty involving sacrifice, incense, prostrations and repetitive hymnody.

I asked a well known Protestant apologist about that recently and he told me that while it's not his main area of study, David was dancing because of victory over enemies and it certainly wasn't in the context of worship.
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« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2011, 06:16:02 PM »

Quote
I can't recall a single instance in the Scriptures where a theophany was accompanied by dance. For every "and David jumped around with some cymbals" quote you can pull out of the Scriptures, I promise you I can pull out another fifty involving sacrifice, incense, prostrations and repetitive hymnody.

I asked a well known Protestant apologist about that recently and he told me that while it's not his main area of study, David was dancing because of victory over enemies and it certainly wasn't in the context of worship.

... Sooo... God cursed Michal (for rebuking David) for fun?

(Note: I'm not sure how I feel about that passage either, but something's not lining up here).
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« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2011, 10:23:59 PM »

Again, the goal of religion is to give back eternal life and to help you get to Heaven. It's not getting fittnes, wisdom, and such.
We are inspired by teachings of Jesus and not by Sola Imagination since Jesus can give us both entrance to Heaven and eternal life.
Read Holy Liturgy of James and then see where you see shouting, clapping and what you are missing.
Well if anyone has energy, he may consider doing jogging after Holy Liturgy.
Protestantism does not offer you freedom since it already renounced for you Holy Communion for eternal life? What freedom is that WITHOUT ETERNAL LIFE?

This is addressed to all who have converted from Pentecostalism (or a similar denomination) to Orthodoxy.

To me, that in a physical way, usually by clapping, yelling, waving hands in the air, or some other type of physical expression.

On the other hand, Orthodoxy does not allow for such expressions. Did you find yourself feeling like "your hands were tied" so to speak, after you converted? Did you miss that feeling of "being in the spirit" where u could yell shout, clap, laugh, dance, and do all that stuff? I know some people really like to be physical when they worship, dancing, moving around, and all those things which i mentioned above, and I figured that people who tend to be this way are probably drawn to Pentecostalism for the allowance of freedom of personal expression.

So those of you who converted, how did you deal with this sudden restriction of expressing yourself during worship, and do you miss it?
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« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2011, 11:43:03 PM »

I know plenty of Orthodox (and some Greek-Catholic) that converted TO Pentecostalism.

Just so you know. Eastern orthodox Church is not A Church is THE Church. So moving from orthodoxy into error can be a sin and since Protestantism has renouncedgreat  to confession the people can go to hell for it.

So will help if you know these people enough to let them know.
Ask them to read abc to eternal life search on google.
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« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2011, 12:31:30 AM »

Fr. Thom has a bit of an interesting take on the so called charismatic gifts within the context of Scripture and pastorally in light of his experience of folks making the switch from a more "charismatic" church to Orthodoxy.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia
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« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2011, 12:33:41 AM »

Again, the goal of religion is to give back eternal life and to help you get to Heaven. It's not getting fittnes, wisdom, and such.
We are inspired by teachings of Jesus and not by Sola Imagination since Jesus can give us both entrance to Heaven and eternal life.
Read Holy Liturgy of James and then see where you see shouting, clapping and what you are missing.
Well if anyone has energy, he may consider doing jogging after Holy Liturgy.
Protestantism does not offer you freedom since it already renounced for you Holy Communion for eternal life? What freedom is that WITHOUT ETERNAL LIFE?

On a day where I feel like hell when not asleep 20 hours, you have no idea how great it is to read your posts.

Glad you are back.
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« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2011, 06:44:03 AM »


I asked a well known Protestant apologist about that recently and he told me that while it's not his main area of study, David was dancing because of victory over enemies and it certainly wasn't in the context of worship.

... Sooo... God cursed Michal (for rebuking David) for fun?
 

Yes, why did God curse him?
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« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2011, 08:04:32 AM »

I think whatever David's motive, the fact remains that Michal felt it was beneath him to behave this way. She had too low a perception of the God of Israel and His mighty works on behalf of His people who he lead out of Egypt. Perhaps the fact that the curse was barrenness (the extinction of the line of Saul IIRC) implies she resented God for casting down her father and raising up the lowly shepherd boy rebel.
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« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2011, 06:11:30 PM »

I think whatever David's motive, the fact remains that Michal felt it was beneath him to behave this way. She had too low a perception of the God of Israel and His mighty works on behalf of His people who he lead out of Egypt. Perhaps the fact that the curse was barrenness (the extinction of the line of Saul IIRC) implies she resented God for casting down her father and raising up the lowly shepherd boy rebel.

Perhaps, but why curse her if her complaint against David was valid and (as others here have stated) what he did had nothing to do with praising/worshiping God? I'm not sure that God curses people who speak truth, no matter how resentful they are. And if she was wrong and David really was worshiping God, how does David become "the exception" to the rule?

I'm not really all that in favor of "dancing before the Lord" but I know some Pentecostals are; it doesn't have to be during DL, but is it ever right or is it always wrong? O_o
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« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2011, 06:47:57 PM »

I think whatever David's motive, the fact remains that Michal felt it was beneath him to behave this way. She had too low a perception of the God of Israel and His mighty works on behalf of His people who he lead out of Egypt. Perhaps the fact that the curse was barrenness (the extinction of the line of Saul IIRC) implies she resented God for casting down her father and raising up the lowly shepherd boy rebel.

Perhaps, but why curse her if her complaint against David was valid and (as others here have stated) what he did had nothing to do with praising/worshiping God? I'm not sure that God curses people who speak truth, no matter how resentful they are. And if she was wrong and David really was worshiping God, how does David become "the exception" to the rule?

I'm not really all that in favor of "dancing before the Lord" but I know some Pentecostals are; it doesn't have to be during DL, but is it ever right or is it always wrong? O_o
Based on the culture of the time, I'm not sure he was wrong to celebrate victory like that, especially considering how God fought for Israel (so perhaps Ninjally's point is not much of a distinction). One reason David might be an exception in this case is that Orthodoxy has always emphasized his status as one of the prophets, as Peter calls him in Acts 2 and as he and Solomon are portrayed on the Resurrection icon. The prophets often did unusual things under God's direction- Elijah's ascetic lifestyle, Isaiah walking around naked, etc. Perhaps David was in the Spirit of God in a way we are not meant to imitate?

Also, I just looked at the passage in 2 Samuel 6 and it does not actually say Michal was cursed it just says she had no children. So maybe she and David just never had sex after this?
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« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2011, 06:54:44 PM »

I don't think it matters why so much, it matters that it's become a formula that's rolled out across the globe because it works. That environment is the what is worshipped and stuck to like glue as if it were a prime spot on Saturday night T.V. This is what works, this type of show and this is the demographic who watch at this time.

There's nothing wrong with using rock music to worship or any type of music or style.


While I agree with your first paragraph, I respectfully (and strongly) disagree with your last sentence.




It mattered alot in the OT how we worship. It just doesn't make sense to me that "anything goes" now. Sure people like it, because its entertaining. But the purpose of worship isn't for our entertainment, it is to worship God, and that is serious business.

Exactly.   In the OT God had very specific instructions on how the worship space looked and how we were to worship Him.
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« Reply #74 on: October 03, 2011, 07:20:25 PM »

I think whatever David's motive, the fact remains that Michal felt it was beneath him to behave this way. She had too low a perception of the God of Israel and His mighty works on behalf of His people who he lead out of Egypt. Perhaps the fact that the curse was barrenness (the extinction of the line of Saul IIRC) implies she resented God for casting down her father and raising up the lowly shepherd boy rebel.

Perhaps, but why curse her if her complaint against David was valid and (as others here have stated) what he did had nothing to do with praising/worshiping God? I'm not sure that God curses people who speak truth, no matter how resentful they are. And if she was wrong and David really was worshiping God, how does David become "the exception" to the rule?

I'm not really all that in favor of "dancing before the Lord" but I know some Pentecostals are; it doesn't have to be during DL, but is it ever right or is it always wrong? O_o
Based on the culture of the time, I'm not sure he was wrong to celebrate victory like that, especially considering how God fought for Israel (so perhaps Ninjally's point is not much of a distinction). One reason David might be an exception in this case is that Orthodoxy has always emphasized his status as one of the prophets, as Peter calls him in Acts 2 and as he and Solomon are portrayed on the Resurrection icon. The prophets often did unusual things under God's direction- Elijah's ascetic lifestyle, Isaiah walking around naked, etc. Perhaps David was in the Spirit of God in a way we are not meant to imitate?

That's a likely possibility.

Quote
Also, I just looked at the passage in 2 Samuel 6 and it does not actually say Michal was cursed it just says she had no children. So maybe she and David just never had sex after this?

I've often wondered about that.... It would make sense considering Saul gave her to David, took her back and gave her to someone else, and then David took her back from said random guy. Not sure I'd sleep with anyone after that either.  Undecided
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« Reply #75 on: October 03, 2011, 07:34:43 PM »

I'm only saying that if someone comes from an "anything goes" style of Divine Liturgy, it must be difficult to make the change to Orthodoxy. (After one tires of rock bands, what becomes the next "hook", and the next?) Is the Word really falling on good soil and how do we, as Orthodox, help nurture it when a Pentecostal inquirer visits?

This is why the divine liturgy, if properly understood and celebrated, continues to build up our body and soul in Christ, and does not run dry, as many other methods of worship seem to do.
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« Reply #76 on: October 03, 2011, 07:44:48 PM »

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.

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« Reply #77 on: October 03, 2011, 08:02:19 PM »

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.



I don't recall anyone saying it was supposed to be the standard. Just why it should or shouldn't be done at all.
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« Reply #78 on: October 03, 2011, 08:11:45 PM »

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.



I don't recall anyone saying it was supposed to be the standard. Just why it should or shouldn't be done at all.

Personally, I don't have a problem with using instruments respectfully in worship. The Byzantine tradition doesn't particularly use them (other than voice), but others do/did and I don't have a problem with that. The Ethiopians even have a sort of swaying that they use which could seem dancelike. Yet, all of the above practices are firmly grounded in the liturgical category of worship. Jewish worship was liturgical, hence Christian worship, imo, should be liturgical.
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« Reply #79 on: October 03, 2011, 08:43:42 PM »

I've often wondered about that.... It would make sense considering Saul gave her to David, took her back and gave her to someone else, and then David took her back from said random guy. Not sure I'd sleep with anyone after that either.  Undecided
Me neither.
If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.



I don't recall anyone saying it was supposed to be the standard. Just why it should or shouldn't be done at all.
Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy. If someone really wanted to, I'm not sure it would be wrong to incorporate this into private worship with their priest's guidance, maybe during small group meetings or something. It's just the Liturgy is an extension of the Temple/Synagogue service and has developed in a particular way as a kind of formal "sacrifice of lips."
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« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2011, 08:59:37 PM »

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.



I don't recall anyone saying it was supposed to be the standard. Just why it should or shouldn't be done at all.

Personally, I don't have a problem with using instruments respectfully in worship. The Byzantine tradition doesn't particularly use them (other than voice), but others do/did and I don't have a problem with that. The Ethiopians even have a sort of swaying that they use which could seem dancelike. Yet, all of the above practices are firmly grounded in the liturgical category of worship. Jewish worship was liturgical, hence Christian worship, imo, should be liturgical.


Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy. If someone really wanted to, I'm not sure it would be wrong to incorporate this into private worship with their priest's guidance, maybe during small group meetings or something. It's just the Liturgy is an extension of the Temple/Synagogue service and has developed in a particular way as a kind of formal "sacrifice of lips."

Good points. Definitely understand this a lot better now.
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« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2011, 10:06:12 PM »

Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy.

Don't know if it qualifies as dancing, but your comment brought this thread to mind...

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« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2011, 12:41:40 AM »

Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy.

Don't know if it qualifies as dancing, but your comment brought this thread to mind...


That's what I was thinking of. Thanks.


And glad I could help, Brandy.  Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2011, 02:00:18 AM »

Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy.

Don't know if it qualifies as dancing, but your comment brought this thread to mind...


That's what I was thinking of. Thanks.


And glad I could help, Brandy.  Smiley

I'm happy to have the help! Cheesy
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pasadi97
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« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2011, 07:44:37 AM »

I believe that there are canons against some type of dancing.
In Romania adding instruments to worship or dancing is a definitive no no in my understanding.
In the end, lets not forget, worship equals pleasing God not people.
Is the dancing directed at God or directed at pleasing and entertaining people? Or tremor like in pentecostalism, tremor that is found in
shamanism too when they contact sick angels? Dervils do dancing like spinning when they contact sick angels.

Can anyone respond to this using ancient books like Book of Enoch, Cave of Treasuries:
Who invented musical instruments?
Why?
Why Noah was upset with his son?

In Rusia a girl danced with a sacred object and turned into stone, marble.
I try to rememeber where I found linked blasphemy with instrumental music and dancing at worship.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe one reason orthodox don't let faithfull go to other denominations is that because of Sola
Imagination what they do may be blasphemy and thus you don't want to be part of it. Or I may be wrong.

True, David sung Psalms with musical instruments however MAYBE this was not worship. I am 100% behind this, protestants try as much as possible to please God, however they don't know how. Protestantism may be a punishment, I mean moving to it from Orthodoxy of first 1000 years when all Europe was orthodox. Defending it means defending punishment means defending a Christianity WITHOUT food for eternal life John 6:53-54, baptism of children, confession etc. Speaking for orthodoxy means to ask for punishment to end. History is a valid science and 2000 years of historical documents even if not inspired by God, can shed the light on how to please God. Pastors can become orthodox priests and give full christianity to their people if 50% christianity is beautifull 100% is awesome.


Following Ortho_Cat's last post, Orthodox Churches in Ghana actually do incorporate some dancing AFAICT, at least following the Liturgy.

Don't know if it qualifies as dancing, but your comment brought this thread to mind...


That's what I was thinking of. Thanks.


And glad I could help, Brandy.  Smiley

I'm happy to have the help! Cheesy
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 08:08:15 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
IsmiLiora
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« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2011, 07:52:38 AM »

Can you think God is pleased by dancing movements?
I am NOT going to argue about dancing in the DL or Vespers or any worship service for that matter, but Pasadi, don't you think that there are many forms of dance that please God?

(Why I am doing this?)

Not talking about Pentecostals either. I'm just talking about dance. It's a beautiful art form and one that I believe can "please" God.
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« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2011, 08:32:27 AM »


Can anyone respond to this using ancient books like Book of Enoch, Cave of Treasuries:
Who invented musical instruments?
Why?
From the OSB, Genesis 4:21: "His brother's name was Jubal. He is the one who invented the psaltery and harp." (SAAS)

We are not told why.

Are there any cultures that do not use instruments and dance for non-religious purposes? (Other than those that may have expressly forbidden them in order to remain separate from the prevailing culture, such as the Puritans.)

I must say I find it strange to chant in our services "Praise Him with the psaltery and harp", yet we are prohibited from doing so. I have had to rationalize that as, "It's OK to use instruments (and dance) in private worship, but not in the corporate liturgical life of the Church in order to avoid excess and scandal."
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« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2011, 08:56:12 AM »


Can anyone respond to this using ancient books like Book of Enoch, Cave of Treasuries:
Who invented musical instruments?
Why?
From the OSB, Genesis 4:21: "His brother's name was Jubal. He is the one who invented the psaltery and harp." (SAAS)

We are not told why.

Are there any cultures that do not use instruments and dance for non-religious purposes? (Other than those that may have expressly forbidden them in order to remain separate from the prevailing culture, such as the Puritans.)

I must say I find it strange to chant in our services "Praise Him with the psaltery and harp", yet we are prohibited from doing so. I have had to rationalize that as, "It's OK to use instruments (and dance) in private worship, but not in the corporate liturgical life of the Church in order to avoid excess and scandal."

Praise him with timbrel and dance, praise him with stringed instrument and flute.

I think when any of the above activities are done and the emphasis starts to drift towards the performer/performance and not God, that is where the problem lies.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 08:56:44 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #88 on: October 04, 2011, 12:25:43 PM »

Can you think God is pleased by dancing movements?
(Why I am doing this?)

Why would anyone indeed argue with pasadi?

And your last avatar and tagline was your best.
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« Reply #89 on: October 04, 2011, 12:31:26 PM »

Can you think God is pleased by dancing movements?
(Why I am doing this?)

Why would anyone indeed argue with pasadi?

And your last avatar and tagline was your best.
The Korean one? It wasn't the exact one that I wanted, so I am still looking for it.

I still want Pasadi to answer meeeee.
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« Reply #90 on: October 04, 2011, 12:40:51 PM »

True, David sung Psalms with musical instruments however MAYBE this was not worship. I am 100% behind this, protestants try as much as possible to please God, however they don't know how. Protestantism may be a punishment, I mean moving to it from Orthodoxy of first 1000 years when all Europe was orthodox. Defending it means defending punishment means defending a Christianity WITHOUT food for eternal life John 6:53-54, baptism of children, confession etc. Speaking for orthodoxy means to ask for punishment to end. History is a valid science and 2000 years of historical documents even if not inspired by God, can shed the light on how to please God. Pastors can become orthodox priests and give full christianity to their people if 50% christianity is beautifull 100% is awesome.

pasadi97, maybe this was not worship, maybe it was praise like the bible says it was.
As far as your remarks about Protestantism - i am stunned, yes stunned and even amazed, at how you link your thoughts. You are able to somehow integrate random statements of fact (and sometimes imagination) and make them seem as though they belong in the same paragraph!

Try telling a small child that dancing when they listen to music, is wrong. No one has to tell or show a toddler to move when they hear music, it's as natural as walking.
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« Reply #91 on: October 04, 2011, 02:02:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.


I don't know about y'all,but within the Ethiopian Orthodox Tradition we precisely keep the worship traditions of King David in all of our celebrations, hymns, festivals, processions, pilgrimage marches, parades, etc etc..
Mahalet Yared
True we are making a specific distinction between Divine Liturgy of the Holy Offering and other worship and liturgical celebrations, however in here there is a shade of grey, before the solemn Divine Liturgies on Christmas and Easter, a three hour prayer service called the Mahalet is performed by the non-ordained clergy (debtara), priests, deacons, and choir members who chant and hymn the great hymnals of Saint Yared composed for such occasions, directly inside the Church, before the Altar, with both drum and sistrum and prayer staff and accompanied by a kind of sacred dance.



Oh yeah, and here is the ruckus we've been making in Jerusalemevery year for at least the past 1000 which has never failed and continues to upset some of the more uptight Byzantines and Russians Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #92 on: October 04, 2011, 02:06:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.


I don't know about y'all,but within the Ethiopian Orthodox Tradition we precisely keep the worship traditions of King David in all of our celebrations, hymns, festivals, processions, pilgrimage marches, parades, etc etc..
Mahalet Yared
True we are making a specific distinction between Divine Liturgy of the Holy Offering and other worship and liturgical celebrations, however in here there is a shade of grey, before the solemn Divine Liturgies on Christmas and Easter, a three hour prayer service called the Mahalet is performed by the non-ordained clergy (debtara), priests, deacons, and choir members who chant and hymn the great hymnals of Saint Yared composed for such occasions, directly inside the Church, before the Altar, with both drum and sistrum and prayer staff and accompanied by a kind of sacred dance.



Oh yeah, and here is the ruckus we've been making in Jerusalemevery year for at least the past 1000 which has never failed and continues to upset some of the more uptight Byzantines and Russians Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

This is what i'm referring to.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #93 on: October 04, 2011, 02:13:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.


I don't know about y'all,but within the Ethiopian Orthodox Tradition we precisely keep the worship traditions of King David in all of our celebrations, hymns, festivals, processions, pilgrimage marches, parades, etc etc..
Mahalet Yared
True we are making a specific distinction between Divine Liturgy of the Holy Offering and other worship and liturgical celebrations, however in here there is a shade of grey, before the solemn Divine Liturgies on Christmas and Easter, a three hour prayer service called the Mahalet is performed by the non-ordained clergy (debtara), priests, deacons, and choir members who chant and hymn the great hymnals of Saint Yared composed for such occasions, directly inside the Church, before the Altar, with both drum and sistrum and prayer staff and accompanied by a kind of sacred dance.



Oh yeah, and here is the ruckus we've been making in Jerusalemevery year for at least the past 1000 which has never failed and continues to upset some of the more uptight Byzantines and Russians Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Shouldn't such disputed material be discussed elsewhere?
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« Reply #94 on: October 04, 2011, 02:20:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If David's "celebration" is to be considered standard practice for how we are to worship God, then why didn't Jews do away with all their rituals etc. and instead follow David's example? Probably because God told them how to worship.  So why should we as Christians be expected to use David's example to model our worship after if even the Jews didn't? Certainly, Christ didn't tell us to.


I don't know about y'all,but within the Ethiopian Orthodox Tradition we precisely keep the worship traditions of King David in all of our celebrations, hymns, festivals, processions, pilgrimage marches, parades, etc etc..
Mahalet Yared
True we are making a specific distinction between Divine Liturgy of the Holy Offering and other worship and liturgical celebrations, however in here there is a shade of grey, before the solemn Divine Liturgies on Christmas and Easter, a three hour prayer service called the Mahalet is performed by the non-ordained clergy (debtara), priests, deacons, and choir members who chant and hymn the great hymnals of Saint Yared composed for such occasions, directly inside the Church, before the Altar, with both drum and sistrum and prayer staff and accompanied by a kind of sacred dance.



Oh yeah, and here is the ruckus we've been making in Jerusalemevery year for at least the past 1000 which has never failed and continues to upset some of the more uptight Byzantines and Russians Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Shouldn't such disputed material be discussed elsewhere?

to be fair to habte, I probably had it coming... Wink
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« Reply #95 on: October 04, 2011, 02:25:50 PM »

Did you find yourself feeling like "your hands were tied" so to speak, after you converted? Did you miss that feeling of "being in the spirit" where u could yell shout, clap, laugh, dance, and do all that stuff?

No way. I never felt comfortable with that kind of stuff. My Pentecostalism was always about doctrines and not that kind of physical worship or experiences. I've always felt more comfortable with more ritualistic worship.
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« Reply #96 on: October 04, 2011, 07:18:09 PM »


Can anyone respond to this using ancient books like Book of Enoch, Cave of Treasuries:
Who invented musical instruments?
Why?
From the OSB, Genesis 4:21: "His brother's name was Jubal. He is the one who invented the psaltery and harp." (SAAS)

We are not told why.

Are there any cultures that do not use instruments and dance for non-religious purposes? (Other than those that may have expressly forbidden them in order to remain separate from the prevailing culture, such as the Puritans.)

I must say I find it strange to chant in our services "Praise Him with the psaltery and harp", yet we are prohibited from doing so. I have had to rationalize that as, "It's OK to use instruments (and dance) in private worship, but not in the corporate liturgical life of the Church in order to avoid excess and scandal."
I think that was actually the original reason for their removal, to avoid resembling the pagan theater and revels.
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