Orthodox who have converted from Pentecostalism

[Ortho_cat]

This is addressed to all who have converted from Pentecostalism (or a similar denomination) to Orthodoxy.

To me, these seem to have diametrically opposed worship traditions. Pentecostalism seems to emphasize being in the moment and 'feeling the spirit' and expressing that in a physical way, usually by clapping, yelling, waving hands in the air, or some other type of physical expression.

On the other hand, Orthodoxy does not allow for such expressions. Did you find yourself feeling like "your hands were tied" so to speak, after you converted? Did you miss that feeling of "being in the spirit" where u could yell shout, clap, laugh, dance, and do all that stuff? I know some people really like to be physical when they worship, dancing, moving around, and all those things which i mentioned above, and I figured that people who tend to be this way are probably drawn to Pentecostalism for the allowance of freedom of personal expression.

So those of you who converted, how did you deal with this sudden restriction of expressing yourself during worship, and do you miss it?

[IsmiLiora]

No way. I thought I would miss it, but I do not miss it for one second. I'm not sure what happened, but the Orthodox services complete me (that is when I'm not being completely distracted by the 1,000,000 thoughts that take residence in my mind). I do not even have the desire to dance anymore.

I can't explain the drastic change, though. Maybe it's God.

[Alveus Lacuna]

I find both forms to be hyper-sensory.

[Ortho_cat]

No way. I thought I would miss it, but I do not miss it for one second. I'm not sure what happened, but the Orthodox services complete me (that is when I'm not being completely distracted by the 1,000,000 thoughts that take residence in my mind). I do not even have the desire to dance anymore.

I can't explain the drastic change, though. Maybe it's God.

Interesting. Do you know any other Pentecostals who converted to Odoxy and who had a similar experience? Do you know any Pentecostals who critique Odoxy as not allowing one to "express themselves" in worship?

[Ortho_cat]

I find both forms to be hyper-sensory.

It is different though, isn't it? Isn't Orthodoxy more "passive" in that all your senses are stimulated by icons, incense, sound etc. But you are not physically reacting to that stimuli?

[mabsoota]

i went from atheist to methodist to charismatic/pentecostal to anglican to orthodox, checking out the catholic church on the way and found that bowing, making the sign of the cross and lifting hands in supplication were more than enough movements.

i think i was looking for a deeper experience with all the movement, and having found that experience in Holy Communion, i was more than satisfied.

[myrrhbear]

I've never been so physically active in worship since becoming Orthodox (coming from a Lutheran denomination)! Walking around during the services to help with congregational singing instructions, lighting candles, crossing myself, kissing icons, bowing, kneeling, touching the floor, full prostrations......not to mention nearly shouting "Christ is Risen" during Pascha!

[IsmiLiora]

.not to mention nearly shouting "Christ is Risen" during Pascha!

YES. I do have to say, almost yelling "Alithos anesti!" in joy was one of my favorite parts of the Pascha DL, vespers, and the services following. It produced almost the same kind of feeling, hopefully with less crazy.

[Achronos]

my favorite scene from Borat

[PrincessMommy]

I find both forms to be hyper-sensory.

I agree.  Also, both do emphasis the experience of God rather than just bookish knowledge of God.  It just looks different.  And Pentecostals (and Charismatics -which I came from) are not afraid to physically express our devotion to God.  Again, it just looks different. 

[Ortho_cat]

I'm trying to explain to a pentecostal friend this relationship, but he doesn't get it. I take him to liturgy and most people only cross themselves and few sing along. So I guess from his perspective we seem rather passive, but i'm sure at some parishes people are moving around bowing, crossing, venerating icons, prostrating, etc. At my parish people just don't move around much, lol. He just thinks its all so boring compared to the services he goes to...oh well...  

[Volnutt]

He just thinks its all so boring compared to the services he goes to...

Sounds like someone needs to grow up and realize it isn't all about him.

[samkim]

Pentecostalism is a charismatic protestant denomination. I was not formally a Pentecostal, but my church had charismatic elements. Speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy--these practices were considered okay as long as they did not contradict Reformed theology. That's the thing about Korean churches: you can be a Charismatic and a Calvinist. I think folks like John Piper are okay with it, too.

Anyway, being a charismatic Christian is about the charism of the Holy Spirit. The only way to  be a REAL charismatic is to be an Orthodox Christian, because it's in the Orthodox Church that we receive the chrism and charism of the Holy Spirit. 

[Volnutt]

Pentecostalism is a charismatic protestant denomination. I was not formally a Pentecostal, but my church had charismatic elements. Speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy--these practices were considered okay as long as they did not contradict Reformed theology. That's the thing about Korean churches: you can be a Charismatic and a Calvinist. I think folks like John Piper are okay with it, too.

Anyway, being a charismatic Christian is about the charism of the Holy Spirit. The only way to  be a REAL charismatic is to be an Orthodox Christian, because it's in the Orthodox Church that we receive the chrism and charism of the Holy Spirit. 

Yeah, charismatic Calvinism was begun by Jack Deere in the 70s. He wrote a book called Surprised by the Holy Spirit.

[jah777]

You might be interested in reading some stories of Pentecostal converts to Othodoxy from here:

 http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/category/convert-stories/non-orthodox-christians/pentecostals/

[FountainPen]

I'm trying to explain to a pentecostal friend this relationship, but he doesn't get it. I take him to liturgy and most people only cross themselves and few sing along. So I guess from his perspective we seem rather passive, but i'm sure at some parishes people are moving around bowing, crossing, venerating icons, prostrating, etc. At my parish people just don't move around much, lol. He just thinks its all so boring compared to the services he goes to...oh well...  

Snap! Most of my family are still tongue-tittering hand wavers and i have always found it draws to much attention to yourself and have never felt comfotable or "lead" for that matter, to throw caution to the wind and do a dervish. It's competitive, self-serving, acting out and while i'm sure most people might be sincere in their expressions of praise to the Lord, i don't think it's a great environment especially for emotionally unstable or needy people. All that gentle background music in all the same familiar chords, just enough to manipulate the emotions enough to shout "YES! I'M HERE LORD, I WILL LIVE BY FAITH AND GIVE UP MY PERFECTLY GOOD JOB TO BE CALLED AS A LEADER INTO MINISTRY" leaving the wife and 4 kids looking astonished because a conversation about the practicalities of such a decision would have been nice. It shifts the focus from God and on to who is the most 'free' in their worship or the most 'spiritual' or those who have a 'calling' into ministry.
Both your friend and my family consider a service to be "boring" compared to the instant gratification you get from being entertained in a charismatic service. That's their 'fix' for the week, the show went well, plenty to talk about <usually other people - just for prayer you understand> grr kill me now.

Even Anglicans are heading in that direction.
I don't miss it at all, what a mess. Delusional and dangerous!

[IsmiLiora]

To add on to Fountain Pen's response --

I had a friend that was really curious about our conversion. She was raised Pentecostal, and honestly doesn't know anything else besides that. After hearing our stories, she kept talking about wanting to attend DL with us.

I took her to visit our church, just to look at it and talk to the priest for a minute, and she NEVER said another word about coming with us again. (I personally think the icons scared her.) I casually asked her what she thought one day, and she said that she really liked the priest and could see us there. She told me that she was having problems with her church (they were apparently too taxing spiritually) and wanted to look somewhere else. I asked her if she considered going to a more traditional Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist church just to check it out.

She paused. "No," she said. "The other church exhausts me, but I couldn't have the same service over and over again. I need things to be changing constantly."

I didn't know what to say to that. I've been there. My husband and I  (while we were dating) fought over which denomination to join and I didn't want to leave non-denominational worship. I didn't see that Orthodoxy would fulfill me. And it has, in spades. But you need to be willing to step outside and try it first. And sometimes it doesn't click the first time, or the second, or the third.

[PrincessMommy]

To add on to Fountain Pen's response --

I had a friend that was really curious about our conversion. She was raised Pentecostal, and honestly doesn't know anything else besides that. After hearing our stories, she kept talking about wanting to attend DL with us.

I took her to visit our church, just to look at it and talk to the priest for a minute, and she NEVER said another word about coming with us again. (I personally think the icons scared her.) I casually asked her what she thought one day, and she said that she really liked the priest and could see us there. She told me that she was having problems with her church (they were apparently too taxing spiritually) and wanted to look somewhere else. I asked her if she considered going to a more traditional Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist church just to check it out.

She paused. "No," she said. "The other church exhausts me, but I couldn't have the same service over and over again. I need things to be changing constantly."

I didn't know what to say to that. I've been there. My husband and I  (while we were dating) fought over which denomination to join and I didn't want to leave non-denominational worship. I didn't see that Orthodoxy would fulfill me. And it has, in spades. But you need to be willing to step outside and try it first. And sometimes it doesn't click the first time, or the second, or the third.

This is SO true.  Most of my Protestant friends are completely unwilling to step outside the box.  They're unhappy where they are but - Liturgy??? Orthodoxy??? Icons??? no way.  It's weird because many/most of these friends are the artsy and/or musical types who love experimenting... but apparently Orthodoxy is just too way outside their personal mainstream.  It makes me sad and frustrated.

[Heorhij]

I have a reverse example. A former student of mine, who used to be very interested in biology (especially evolution), converted from an extreme right-wing Methodism (Holiness Movement) to Orthodoxy; she was baptised in a ROCOR parish. But then she enlisted in the US Army and was deployed to the Middle East. There, she met a group of other troops who were the so-called Oneness Pentecostals. They lured her to convert to that faith.

It's really sad because these Oneness people are heretics; they actually repeat the age-old Sabellian heresy, or "modalism" (even though they deny it). My former student - who remains my friend via Facebook - says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible. I doubt, however, that it was the case. More likely, I suspect, it's rock music and adrenaline rush... combined with a certain posttraumatic stress disorder. (She saw a number of her buddies killed by improvised explosive devices.)

[FrChris]

...says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible...

I recently had a similar discussion with someone, and when I pointed out this quote (2 Peter 1:20):

 
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

International Standard Version (©2008)
First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American King James Version
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American Standard Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Bible in Basic English
Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Darby Bible Translation
knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,

English Revised Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Webster's Bible Translation
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Weymouth New Testament
But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting;

World English Bible
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

Young's Literal Translation
this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,

She just ignored me, since I guess her own 'private interpretation' was to ignore the prohibition against private interpretations.

[recent convert]

I had attended a 4 Square Pentecostal Church for about 8 months prior to coming to Orthodoxy. It was a mixed bag of somewhat familiar evangelical Protestantism & Pentecostal stuff; some of the former was substantive for what it was & the latter I never took to in its expression. They had links to the likes of the late Dave Wilkerson who did some exemplary work in the streets of NYC for almost 50 years. Interestingly they would practice silent or at least very quiet prayer on Saturday evenings & the pastor would say "Lord Jesus" in a whispered, orderly repetition. Overall it was a mixed bag; sometimes inspiring & once in while a little scary. I miss nothing of the worship or the doctrinal problems,  but a couple of times did participate in street ministry in the Bronx etc. which was administered in generosity giving food & drink &  offering a dignified (not forced) ministry to any desiring it. Of course we have plenty of charitable work in our Orthodox church and I hope a ministry like Fr.  Justin's: FOCUS could take hold or more direct link established to it in our Orthodox parish.

[FountainPen]

To add on to Fountain Pen's response --

I had a friend that was really curious about our conversion. She was raised Pentecostal, and honestly doesn't know anything else besides that. After hearing our stories, she kept talking about wanting to attend DL with us.

I took her to visit our church, just to look at it and talk to the priest for a minute, and she NEVER said another word about coming with us again. (I personally think the icons scared her.) I casually asked her what she thought one day, and she said that she really liked the priest and could see us there. She told me that she was having problems with her church (they were apparently too taxing spiritually) and wanted to look somewhere else. I asked her if she considered going to a more traditional Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist church just to check it out.

She paused. "No," she said. "The other church exhausts me, but I couldn't have the same service over and over again. I need things to be changing constantly."

I didn't know what to say to that. I've been there. My husband and I  (while we were dating) fought over which denomination to join and I didn't want to leave non-denominational worship. I didn't see that Orthodoxy would fulfill me. And it has, in spades. But you need to be willing to step outside and try it first. And sometimes it doesn't click the first time, or the second, or the third.

This is SO true.  Most of my Protestant friends are completely unwilling to step outside the box.  They're unhappy where they are but - Liturgy??? Orthodoxy??? Icons??? no way.  It's weird because many/most of these friends are the artsy and/or musical types who love experimenting... but apparently Orthodoxy is just too way outside their personal mainstream.  It makes me sad and frustrated.

Princessmommy, i do have those reservations about icons and liturgy etc. Mostly because it's hard wired into me that the focus should always be God and never others <icons> and that ritual repetition of words that don't emerge spontaneously from within you, via the Spirit are 'religious'. That's hard to go against, it's drip fed into the culture so even now to me, it seems wrong. Without even looking into it, my reaction is no way. It's hard to be open minded about it even though i'm trying to be.

[FountainPen]

...says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible...

I recently had a similar discussion with someone, and when I pointed out this quote (2 Peter 1:20):

 
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

International Standard Version (©2008)
First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American King James Version
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American Standard Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Bible in Basic English
Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Darby Bible Translation
knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,

English Revised Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Webster's Bible Translation
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Weymouth New Testament
But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting;

World English Bible
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

Young's Literal Translation
this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,

She just ignored me, since I guess her own 'private interpretation' was to ignore the prohibition against private interpretations.

Any die hard Charismatic would just tell you that it's not their interpretation but the Spirit working through them. You can't argue with that, the Spirit is the teacher of all things and He lives in us.

[jah777]

Princessmommy, i do have those reservations about icons and liturgy etc. Mostly because it's hard wired into me that the focus should always be God and never others <icons> and that ritual repetition of words that don't emerge spontaneously from within you, via the Spirit are 'religious'. That's hard to go against, it's drip fed into the culture so even now to me, it seems wrong. Without even looking into it, my reaction is no way. It's hard to be open minded about it even though i'm trying to be.

This is very understandable, and most of us who converted at one time or another may recall that we too once looked upon Orthodoxy as something bizarre, strange, seemingly wrong, foreign, etc.  The Orthodox Church is not a cult that tries to get you to submit to it instantly "or else".  In most Orthodox churches, once a person says they want to become Orthodox they are informed that they will have to wait, sometimes a year, sometimes six months, sometimes three years.  Priests want to make sure a person is serious, that they understand what they are doing and why, and have had time to become familiar with life and worship in an Orthodox church before receiving a person into the community.  Feel free to ask all the questions you want, and you are sure to get many responses on this list.  Even better, contact an Orthodox priest near you and meet with him.  Feel free to be very honest with your reservations and skepticism.  For the many of us who at one time felt and thought as you do now, today we can clearly see how wrong we were, but for most of us it was a long journey and took a great deal of prayer, study, dialogue, struggle, etc.  While many of us may be eager to share our own journeys with you, and while it is helpful to read about the journey others have taken, nobody can make your journey for you.  Everyone must seek out the truth for themselves.  So, don’t be ashamed of your questions, but seek the truth with sincerity.  Realizing that Orthodoxy and Pentecostalism are in many ways in great contradiction to one another, try to find out why that is, what are the sources and foundations of the ways in which each body worships, prays, and believes.  Do not accept things simply because you are told to accept them, but also do not reject things either simply because they don’t agree with what you have been formerly taught.  As the Lord said, if you seek you will find.    

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and  Savior Jesus Christ!

This is addressed to all who have converted from Pentecostalism (or a similar denomination) to Orthodoxy.

To me, these seem to have diametrically opposed worship traditions. Pentecostalism seems to emphasize being in the moment and 'feeling the spirit' and expressing that in a physical way, usually by clapping, yelling, waving hands in the air, or some other type of physical expression.

What about prostrations? And chanting during the Divine Liturgy? Or Hymns? Orthodox worship is a physical (if not more so) than other Christian worship, the difference is that it is strictly choreographed to achieve a unison spiritual experience, whereas Pentecostals "are just winging it"

So those of you who converted, how did you deal with this sudden restriction of expressing yourself during worship, and do you miss it?

Isn't that what the "Amen", the "Alleluia" and the "Lord Have His Mercy" call and repeats are for?

Besides, we're not that different, we even have Orthodox snake handling



stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Ortho_cat]

...says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible...

I recently had a similar discussion with someone, and when I pointed out this quote (2 Peter 1:20):

 
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

International Standard Version (©2008)
First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American King James Version
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American Standard Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Bible in Basic English
Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Darby Bible Translation
knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,

English Revised Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Webster's Bible Translation
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Weymouth New Testament
But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting;

World English Bible
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

Young's Literal Translation
this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,

She just ignored me, since I guess her own 'private interpretation' was to ignore the prohibition against private interpretations.

Any die hard Charismatic would just tell you that it's not their interpretation but the Spirit working through them. You can't argue with that, the Spirit is the teacher of all things and He lives in us.

But I would reply with, "Is the Holy Spirit the author of confusion? Why so many different interpretations by all those who claim to come to it by inspiration of the Spirit?"

[PrincessMommy]

Princessmommy, i do have those reservations about icons and liturgy etc. Mostly because it's hard wired into me that the focus should always be God and never others <icons> and that ritual repetition of words that don't emerge spontaneously from within you, via the Spirit are 'religious'. That's hard to go against, it's drip fed into the culture so even now to me, it seems wrong. Without even looking into it, my reaction is no way. It's hard to be open minded about it even though i'm trying to be.

I do understand, but something is drawing you and you're open enough to pursue it and not just put up with the status quo.  I didn't go directly from the Charismatic movement to Orthodoxy.  I climbed the liturgical ladder.   I think everyone who begins to come to Orthodoxy has a stumbling block or two.  Each one is different.  Icons weren't an issue for me.  I'd had one since I was 17 and had visited St. Vlads in NY.   But there have been other issues to get through.   Keep praying and keep attending services.   I don't know how long you've been inquiring, but have you been through an Orthodox Lent?   There's so much depth and layer upon layer in each of the services, but most especially during the period of Pre-Lent and Lent.  

[FountainPen]

...says that what made her convert was her independent study of the Bible...

I recently had a similar discussion with someone, and when I pointed out this quote (2 Peter 1:20):

 
New International Version (©1984)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,

English Standard Version (©2001)
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

International Standard Version (©2008)
First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American King James Version
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

American Standard Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Bible in Basic English
Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Darby Bible Translation
knowing this first, that the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,

English Revised Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Webster's Bible Translation
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Weymouth New Testament
But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting;

World English Bible
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

Young's Literal Translation
this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,

She just ignored me, since I guess her own 'private interpretation' was to ignore the prohibition against private interpretations.

Any die hard Charismatic would just tell you that it's not their interpretation but the Spirit working through them. You can't argue with that, the Spirit is the teacher of all things and He lives in us.

But I would reply with, "Is the Holy Spirit the author of confusion? Why so many different interpretations by all those who claim to come to it by inspiration of the Spirit?"

I agree with your point but i know from experience that each denomination thinks they alone have the majority of the revealed truth and that those who are in dispute, though tolerated in Christian love of course, are clearly not listening to the correct spirit. Which doesn't change the fact that their group seemingly has the authority via the Spirit, to interpret. They believe everyone else is wrong or at the very least, not as 'right' as they are.

[Seraphim Rose]

I agree with your point but i know from experience that each denomination thinks they alone have the majority of the revealed truth and that those who are in dispute, though tolerated in Christian love of course, are clearly not listening to the correct spirit. Which doesn't change the fact that their group seemingly has the authority via the Spirit, to interpret. They believe everyone else is wrong or at the very least, not as 'right' as they are.

I know what you mean. When I heard a few Orthodox say "It is the original church. Nothing has been changed," I thought it was just strange, naive immigrant thinking. They all say they are the original church.

But this -- along with the icon of Christ in Majesty -- was eventually to lead to my decision to become Orthodox. (I asked my priest to accept us formally as Catechumens only yesterday.)

It is true -- they all claim to have the closest ties to the Church of Acts.

Yet, who claims:
to have unbroken Apostolic succession
to be the source of the Canon
to teach precisely what Christ taught the Apostles
to have Jesus Christ as its head

Without:
a supreme Vicar
worship of the Mother of God
a schism happening every year or so
disorderly worship

While offering:

healing for the spiritual sick
the fullness of the Presence of Christ
unfathomably profound (and utterly applicable) understanding of the Scriptures
liturgical beauty that exists only for worship of our Creator, Savior and Comforter,

and,
artistic works that present the truth of Christ, and the fruits of lives lived in Christ, for all who wish to gain holiness by turning one's own eyes to truth.

[Alveus Lacuna]

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

[Seraphim Rose]

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

Exactly.

[Ortho_cat]

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I've heard there are some who consider he to somehow be a 4th person of the Trinity, similar to Wisdom.

[Volnutt]

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I've heard there are some who consider he to somehow be a 4th person of the Trinity, similar to Wisdom.

Bulgakov came close but later repented. In the RCC, Maximilian Kolbe and the Army of Immaculata call her a "quasi-incarnation" of the Spirit.

[Ortho_cat]

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I've heard there are some who consider he to somehow be a 4th person of the Trinity, similar to Wisdom.

Bulgakov came close but later repented. In the RCC, Maximilian Kolbe and the Army of Immaculata call her a "quasi-incarnation" of the Spirit.

sounds dangerously close to a deity to me.

[Volnutt]

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I've heard there are some who consider he to somehow be a 4th person of the Trinity, similar to Wisdom.

Bulgakov came close but later repented. In the RCC, Maximilian Kolbe and the Army of Immaculata call her a "quasi-incarnation" of the Spirit.

sounds dangerously close to a deity to me.

Indeed. 

[Volnutt]

Maybe this old thread I found will help someone. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12169.0.html

[Seraphim Rose]

worship of the Mother of God

Not accurate. I know no Christians that worship the Theotokos as God.

I was addressing FountainPen with his/her protestant background, who was coming from a Pentecostal background, and was probably therefore suspicious about Medieval Catholicism's excesses -- eg. an exaggerated cult of Mary. I was laying out what Orthodoxy believes and practices, and does not believe and practice.

Veneration of the Theotokos can become idolatry when the "focus" ceases to be on the Incarnation.

Orthodoxy doesn't do that. Only Orthodoxy "understands" the Theotokos properly.

That was my point.

Boy, have I made a mess of this!

[Ortho_cat]

Maybe this old thread I found will help someone. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12169.0.html

thanks for the link! 

[Volnutt]

You're welcome.

[myrrhbear]

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

[Aindriú]

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

[Ortho_cat]

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

[Aindriú]

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

[Ortho_cat]

Does it seem to you that our modern multi-media culture, which is now infused with many Protestant services, has only encouraged worshipers to feel they must be "entertained" in order to feel they have been to church? Standing still in the presence of the Lord is certainly not boring!

Would you find a liturgy wanting, if it was not done beautifully (chanting, vestments, incense, etc)?

Would we find heaven wanting if the streets were not paved with gold?

My point is that everyone who is faithful to God, no matter the faith, in a basic sense, wants to pray in what they think is most deserving.

Some Protestants may think that that praise bands is a valid representations, from their experience. So, I'm defending that perhaps that type of worship is not some western conspiracy, but an attempt to express love of God the only way they understand.

I don't think that the main reason Protestants worship using rock bands is because they think Jesus like electric guitars and ripped jeans. I think they do it because they want to seem relevant to today's society; to be "seeker-friendly" and in appearance conformed with the secular world.

[Ortho_cat]

The Divine Liturgy is intended to be a type or an icon of the Heavenly Jerusalem.

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