Author Topic: Jewish idea of baptism  (Read 971 times)

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Offline Maria

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Jewish idea of baptism
« on: September 25, 2011, 05:40:50 PM »
Wow who ever wrote this has no idea of history at all on Baptism

Could you please explain this? And how would this relate to embarrassment?

What is the Jewish idea of baptism? I read something about it when I visited the Skirball Center here in Los Angeles.

p.s. I guess the idea of being baptized in the nude could be called an embarrassment.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 05:42:01 PM by Maria »
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Offline jewish voice

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Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2011, 06:42:11 PM »
Wow who ever wrote this has no idea of history at all on Baptism

Could you please explain this? And how would this relate to embarrassment?

What is the Jewish idea of baptism? I read something about it when I visited the Skirball Center here in Los Angeles.

p.s. I guess the idea of being baptized in the nude could be called an embarrassment.
There is no Jew who would ever have embarrassment over ever having done a mikveh thats what makes the out word body pure and makes a Jew a Jew.

Mikveh in Judaism is done as to pure the body a few examples would be after child birth , menstruation , Health issues, coming in contact with a dead body or grave yard and conversion.

Who ever thinks any Jew would have embarrassment over having done this really has no idea of the history of mikveh. John didn't start anything new here he just redefined it. John was against the temple because in his mind they were not in line with God there and could not give you forgiveness of sin cause of there own sin. If one can't go to temple to be forgiven what does one do? John says come be Mikvehed and be forgiven all of your sins. Jesus when he went there was only backing up what John was saying.

Offline Andrew Crook

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 11:11:09 AM »
This just reminds me how there is nothing really "new" in Christianity..  :laugh:

We all have ideas, concepts, and practices which were heavily influenced by others even though we gave our own meaning to them.
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Offline Andrew Crook

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 11:13:24 AM »
Jewish voice,  Do you find the ideas of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity to be stumbling blocks to ever accepting Christianity?

At least from what I was reading of your other posts, you were considering embracing Orthodoxy.  Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I know it's always appreciated to have someone who is knowledgeable from another religious tradition.  I'm glad you are here to share your insights and understanding with us!
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 11:18:29 AM »
A lot of it was "ritual washing" ie (consider the "containers" Yeshua had filled with water to turn into wine). 

It was about cleansing both in spirit (to become clean) and to physically clean yourself.

John the baptist was said to be "ritually washing".

Somewhere along the line it became "enchanted" with mojo and everything holy and water was all charmed & blessed.   It was not like that before some power mongers took it over.
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 11:21:05 AM »
Somewhere along the line it became "enchanted" with mojo and everything holy and water was all charmed & blessed.   It was not like that before some power mongers took it over.

Jesus?

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Offline JLatimer

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 11:37:03 AM »
A lot of it was "ritual washing" ie (consider the "containers" Yeshua had filled with water to turn into wine). 

It was about cleansing both in spirit (to become clean) and to physically clean yourself.

John the baptist was said to be "ritually washing".

Somewhere along the line it became "enchanted" with mojo and everything holy and water was all charmed & blessed.   It was not like that before some power mongers took it over.

Actually, ritual ablutions and immersions in Judaism never had much at all, if anything, to do with "physically cleaning" oneself.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 04:58:31 PM »
Somewhere along the line it became "enchanted" with mojo and everything holy and water was all charmed & blessed.   It was not like that before some power mongers took it over.

Jesus?
:D
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Offline biro

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 06:31:44 PM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Somewhere along the line it became "enchanted" with mojo and everything holy and water was all charmed & blessed.   It was not like that before some power mongers took it over.

I don't know who taught your Sunday school, but around these parts, we refer to that mojo as "the Holy Spirit."
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 06:36:20 PM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Somewhere along the line it became "enchanted" with mojo and everything holy and water was all charmed & blessed.   It was not like that before some power mongers took it over.

I don't know who taught your Sunday school, but around these parts, we refer to that mojo as "the Holy Spirit."
Everyone knows the Catholics invented that.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline jewish voice

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 07:10:43 PM »
Jewish voice,  Do you find the ideas of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity to be stumbling blocks to ever accepting Christianity?

At least from what I was reading of your other posts, you were considering embracing Orthodoxy.  Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I know it's always appreciated to have someone who is knowledgeable from another religious tradition.  I'm glad you are here to share your insights and understanding with us!
I'm very much looking into Orthodoxy with an open mind. The trinity is in fact one of the areas thatI'm still trying to understand.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 07:18:11 PM »
Jewish voice,  Do you find the ideas of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity to be stumbling blocks to ever accepting Christianity?

At least from what I was reading of your other posts, you were considering embracing Orthodoxy.  Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I know it's always appreciated to have someone who is knowledgeable from another religious tradition.  I'm glad you are here to share your insights and understanding with us!
I'm very much looking into Orthodoxy with an open mind. The trinity is in fact one of the areas thatI'm still trying to understand.

Have you read any of the Fathers about this?

I'm going to need this.

Offline jewish voice

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 08:17:49 PM »
Jewish voice,  Do you find the ideas of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity to be stumbling blocks to ever accepting Christianity?

At least from what I was reading of your other posts, you were considering embracing Orthodoxy.  Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I know it's always appreciated to have someone who is knowledgeable from another religious tradition.  I'm glad you are here to share your insights and understanding with us!
I'm very much looking into Orthodoxy with an open mind. The trinity is in fact one of the areas thatI'm still trying to understand.

Have you read any of the Fathers about this?
Yes I have just found some things on the internet that has writings of the fathers but see after saying hear o' Israel the Lord God is one every morning and night its kinda hard to just up and change your mind over night. 

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 08:19:53 PM »
Jewish voice,  Do you find the ideas of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity to be stumbling blocks to ever accepting Christianity?

At least from what I was reading of your other posts, you were considering embracing Orthodoxy.  Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I know it's always appreciated to have someone who is knowledgeable from another religious tradition.  I'm glad you are here to share your insights and understanding with us!
I'm very much looking into Orthodoxy with an open mind. The trinity is in fact one of the areas thatI'm still trying to understand.

Have you read any of the Fathers about this?
Yes I have just found some things on the internet that has writings of the fathers but see after saying hear o' Israel the Lord God is one every morning and night its kinda hard to just up and change your mind over night. 

Not so much for changing your mind, but for understanding.

I was reading you had a hard time understanding the concept. There are some noteworthy Fathers that describe the Trinity.

I'm going to need this.

Offline biro

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2011, 08:37:03 PM »
JV- it was once described to me this way: I think of my own father. To me, he's Dad. To my aunt, he's her brother. To my Mom, he's her husband. And yet he's only one Dad.    :) Just an analogy, but it helped me.


He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 08:38:01 PM »
JV- it was once described to me this way: I think of my own father. To me, he's Dad. To my aunt, he's her brother. To my Mom, he's her husband. And yet he's only one Dad.    :) Just an analogy, but it helped me.




That's modalism.

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Offline biro

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 08:50:34 PM »
I thought modalism meant the thing actually changes itself, as in shapeshifting. Whereas my Dad is only one person, but he is known in three distinct ways. Well, I agree that JV will probably be better off reading the Church Fathers rather than anything by me.  :)
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2011, 08:58:51 PM »
I thought modalism meant the thing actually changes itself, as in shapeshifting. Whereas my Dad is only one person, but he is known in three distinct ways. Well, I agree that JV will probably be better off reading the Church Fathers rather than anything by me.  :)

Modalism is precisely as you described it. That God's three persons is only different by perception.

Whereas Trinitarian belief is that there is one God, but three distinct persons. One God the Father, the Son who is begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father. :)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 08:59:05 PM by Aindriú »

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Offline biro

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2011, 09:07:13 PM »
Okay. I'll just be hiding in a giant box.  :laugh:
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline Rufus

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2011, 09:40:37 PM »
Jewish voice,  Do you find the ideas of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity to be stumbling blocks to ever accepting Christianity?

At least from what I was reading of your other posts, you were considering embracing Orthodoxy.  Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I know it's always appreciated to have someone who is knowledgeable from another religious tradition.  I'm glad you are here to share your insights and understanding with us!
I'm very much looking into Orthodoxy with an open mind. The trinity is in fact one of the areas thatI'm still trying to understand.

Have you read any of the Fathers about this?
Yes I have just found some things on the internet that has writings of the fathers but see after saying hear o' Israel the Lord God is one every morning and night its kinda hard to just up and change your mind over night. 

I believe that "The LORD is One" is an obscure idiom that is generallly taken to mean, "there are no other gods." I would be interested to hear what the Jewish rabbinical interpretations of this phrase are.

Offline Andrew Crook

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2011, 09:47:25 PM »
I was learning that the "angel of the LORD" in the Old Testament, or otherwise known as "Ha Shem, The Name" was understood by the early Fathers to be the person of Jesus in his divine nature before he incarnated.  Perhaps this is partially where Jehovah's Witnesses get him mixed up with St. Michael the Archangel?  ???

So when the "angel of the LORD" appeared to Abraham at Mamre, with the other two -- that was a foreshadowing of the Trinity.  While yes, two of the angels.. were angels to carry out the judgement upon Sodom and Gomorrah only one of them was Christ as God the Son.  There are hints and glimpses of Christ and the Church throughout Moses, and the Prophets, and the Writings.  We considered them to be "types" of that which is to come, as that's how we understand Jesus to have been mentioned in the Scriptures when our Jewish friends will never accept that. 
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2011, 09:55:15 AM »
I was learning that the "angel of the LORD" in the Old Testament, or otherwise known as "Ha Shem, The Name" was understood by the early Fathers to be the person of Jesus in his divine nature before he incarnated.  Perhaps this is partially where Jehovah's Witnesses get him mixed up with St. Michael the Archangel?  ???

So when the "angel of the LORD" appeared to Abraham at Mamre, with the other two -- that was a foreshadowing of the Trinity.  While yes, two of the angels.. were angels to carry out the judgement upon Sodom and Gomorrah only one of them was Christ as God the Son.  There are hints and glimpses of Christ and the Church throughout Moses, and the Prophets, and the Writings.  We considered them to be "types" of that which is to come, as that's how we understand Jesus to have been mentioned in the Scriptures when our Jewish friends will never accept that.  

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that HaShem is the Angel of the Lord, HaShem is what pious Jews call God. It is a way of avoiding saying the Tetragrammaton, or Adonai, or even 'God', out of reverence (thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain).
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 09:56:46 AM by JLatimer »
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Andrew Crook

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2011, 12:49:39 PM »
I was learning that the "angel of the LORD" in the Old Testament, or otherwise known as "Ha Shem, The Name" was understood by the early Fathers to be the person of Jesus in his divine nature before he incarnated.  Perhaps this is partially where Jehovah's Witnesses get him mixed up with St. Michael the Archangel?  ???

So when the "angel of the LORD" appeared to Abraham at Mamre, with the other two -- that was a foreshadowing of the Trinity.  While yes, two of the angels.. were angels to carry out the judgement upon Sodom and Gomorrah only one of them was Christ as God the Son.  There are hints and glimpses of Christ and the Church throughout Moses, and the Prophets, and the Writings.  We considered them to be "types" of that which is to come, as that's how we understand Jesus to have been mentioned in the Scriptures when our Jewish friends will never accept that.  

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that HaShem is the Angel of the Lord, HaShem is what pious Jews call God. It is a way of avoiding saying the Tetragrammaton, or Adonai, or even 'God', out of reverence (thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain).

No JLatimer, I said "HaShem" because usually when our English translations write "LORD" it is used to replace the Tetragrammation.  The LORD is God the Father, the angel of the LORD is God the Son Jesus Christ.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2011, 02:02:49 PM »
I was learning that the "angel of the LORD" in the Old Testament, or otherwise known as "Ha Shem, The Name" was understood by the early Fathers to be the person of Jesus in his divine nature before he incarnated.  Perhaps this is partially where Jehovah's Witnesses get him mixed up with St. Michael the Archangel?  ???

So when the "angel of the LORD" appeared to Abraham at Mamre, with the other two -- that was a foreshadowing of the Trinity.  While yes, two of the angels.. were angels to carry out the judgement upon Sodom and Gomorrah only one of them was Christ as God the Son.  There are hints and glimpses of Christ and the Church throughout Moses, and the Prophets, and the Writings.  We considered them to be "types" of that which is to come, as that's how we understand Jesus to have been mentioned in the Scriptures when our Jewish friends will never accept that.  

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that HaShem is the Angel of the Lord, HaShem is what pious Jews call God. It is a way of avoiding saying the Tetragrammaton, or Adonai, or even 'God', out of reverence (thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain).

No JLatimer, I said "HaShem" because usually when our English translations write "LORD" it is used to replace the Tetragrammation.  The LORD is God the Father, the angel of the LORD is God the Son Jesus Christ.

Still not sure what you're saying. I agree with you and the Fathers that the Angel of the LORD is the preincarnate Christ. But the phrase HaShem is not used to refer to God (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) in the Hebrew Bible, as far as I know. HaShem is a later Jewish way of referring to God without calling Him a name.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Andrew Crook

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Re: Jewish idea of baptism
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2011, 02:07:36 PM »
Ok JLatimer, then you have gotten my point.  That's all that I was saying, perhaps you might be over-thinking my comments.. lol  :P ;)
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity