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Author Topic: The Holy Orthodox Church in North America  (Read 2115 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 27, 2011, 12:19:37 AM »

Is The Holy Orthodox Church in North America in communion with The Orthodox Church in AMerica ? Can an Orthodox Christian attend their services and receive Communion?
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 12:21:56 AM »

No. This is a schismatic group which is not in communion with the canonical Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 12:54:52 AM »

HOCNA is an Old Calendarist Orthodox synod. So you can attend their services but you would not be allowed to receive the sacraments from them. They actually have an open policy to giving the sacraments to other Old Calendarist Orthodox Christians with whom they are not in communion with but they won't give the sacraments to New Calendarists or Met. Cyprian of Fili's synod.

Here's a letter from HOCNAs Met. Ephraim stating the conditions when HOCNA is allowed to give the sacraments to laypeople who are in other TOC jurisdictions:
http://www.homb.org/resources/docs/Met-Letter-with-Seal-2010.pdf
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 12:58:24 AM »

What about those of us in "World Orthodoxy" on the Old Calendar? We're not "New Calendarists", are we?
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 01:12:37 AM »

What about those of us in "World Orthodoxy" on the Old Calendar? We're not "New Calendarists", are we?

Terms can get confusing so forgive me if I was confusing in my post. I'm not here to offend anybody either and some people have taken offense when I've used the term World Orthodoxy. But for the sake of clarification, HOCNA will not impart the sacraments to New Calendarists/World Orthodox Christians. But they have conditions where they'll give the sacraments to other Old Calendarists/Traditional Orthodox Christians who may not be in communion with HOCNA.
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 01:23:30 AM »

Is The Holy Orthodox Church in North America in communion with The Orthodox Church in AMerica ? Can an Orthodox Christian attend their services and receive Communion?

As Alveus said, they are not in communion with "canonical" (whatever that means) Orthodox Churches. They are old calendarist/traditionalists. Most people have no issues buying stuff they sell, however.
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 02:23:12 AM »

other Old Calendarists/Traditional Orthodox Christians
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 02:43:49 AM »

How do you tell if a church is or isnt canonical??

Does The Holy Orthodox Church in North America think theyre canonical?? Why are they not?

Just wondering...

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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 08:26:02 AM »

How do you tell if a church is or isnt canonical??

If you are considered to be  such by the rest of the Churches.
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 09:12:51 AM »

But they have conditions where they'll give the sacraments to other Old Calendarists/Traditional Orthodox Christians who may not be in communion with HOCNA.

Do you know what are those conditions? It doesn't sound really traditional to distribute Eucharist regardless of limits of visible church.
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 09:15:21 AM »

But they have conditions where they'll give the sacraments to other Old Calendarists/Traditional Orthodox Christians who may not be in communion with HOCNA.

Do you know what are those conditions? It doesn't sound really traditional to distribute Eucharist regardless of limits of visible church.

Here's a link that explains what the conditions are:
http://www.homb.org/resources/docs/Met-Letter-with-Seal-2010.pdf
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 09:34:11 AM »

Thank you for the link. Their ecclesiology seem to be pretty similar to conservative Lutherans.
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 10:38:05 AM »

How do you tell if a church is or isnt canonical??

I don't know. I'm not even sure what that word means. However, if you are talking about the Orthodox Church that most people think of, the group of Local Churches in Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Moscow, etc. that are in communion with each other, then they are listed here under the "Eastern Orthodox Churches (in full communion)" subtitle. Scroll down to "Eastern Orthodox Churches (not in communion)" for some of the ones not in communion with the first group of Churches, such as HOCNA.

Quote
Does The Holy Orthodox Church in North America think theyre canonical?? Why are they not?

They think they're Orthodox. Other Orthodox think a range of things about them: they're Orthodox, they're schismatic, etc. The number of Orthodox who consider HOCA Orthodox is incredibly small; but then majority rule doesn't decide who is right. As to whether they are right or not, well that's a whole encyclopedia set of a topic. To oversimplify things: If they are Orthodox it's because they are rightly rebelling against ecumenism; if they are not Orthodox it's because they are wrongfully rebelling against the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 10:38:05 AM »

How do you tell if a church is or isnt canonical??

If you are considered to be  such by the rest of the Churches.

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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2011, 10:41:32 AM »

How do you tell if a church is or isnt canonical??

Does The Holy Orthodox Church in North America think theyre canonical?? Why are they not?

Just wondering...


Depends on what side of the divide you're on. If you're with the 230,000,000 "World Orthodox", it's really really easy. If you're with the <1,000,000 schismatic/traditionalist/"Old Calendarist"/etc, it's a bit more complicated. HOCNA, of course, believes they are canonical. Good for them, but I won't buy their goods.
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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 11:13:57 AM »

How do you tell if a church is or isnt canonical??

Does The Holy Orthodox Church in North America think theyre canonical?? Why are they not?

Just wondering...


Depends on what side of the divide you're on. If you're with the 230,000,000 "World Orthodox", it's really really easy. If you're with the <1,000,000 schismatic/traditionalist/"Old Calendarist"/etc, it's a bit more complicated. HOCNA, of course, believes they are canonical. Good for them, but I won't buy their goods.

IS there any reading, preferably something rather simple, that explains the difference between old calendar and new calendar?  Is the main "World Orthodox" church new or old? Im yet to get the whole calendar deal.  I saw the thread on it here, but it was every post on the subject lumped together and it was hard to follow what was happening...
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 11:32:39 AM »

IS there any reading, preferably something rather simple, that explains the difference between old calendar and new calendar?  Is the main "World Orthodox" church new or old? Im yet to get the whole calendar deal.  I saw the thread on it here, but it was every post on the subject lumped together and it was hard to follow what was happening...
A one sentence summary is that "Old Calendarists" (distinct from "somebody on the Old Calendar") are people who schismed from the rest of Orthodoxy because the Church of Greece and later some other countries moved to the New Calendar, and then later these schismatic groups attacked the "ecumenism" of the other 99% of Orthodoxy. Mainstream Orthodoxy ("World Orthodoxy", as the schismatics and others call it), which constitutes 99% of the Orthodox in the world, is actually mostly on the Old Calendar, hence the distinction between "Old Calendarists" and "people on the Old Calendar", but people on the New Calendar make up a significant minority (viz: Greece). Hope that helps. Any discussion of the "issues" quickly becomes either polemic or extremely academic. If you want academic, I'll start from Babylonian calendars to the present (I'll have to dig out my notes) or I could just start with Julian and not discuss Pascha at all, but I will require that you have spent quite a bit of time staring at the moon and have not only an intuitive but a practical understanding of the difference between the solar day and the sidereal day. It is somewhat useless to talk about the details of calendars if you don't have any notion how the sky moves.
But, a long story short, the calendar is probably not an important issue, and it might be okay to have concerns about it, but I would strongly recommend that you not take them so seriously that you have to go into schism.
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2011, 11:38:36 AM »

OK, from the start:

Eastern Orthodox  Christianity is divided into 3 main branches:

- the sc 'World Orthodoxy' that comprises 95%+ of the Eastern Orthodox believers - this is a communion of 15 (or 14 - it's complicated) autocephalous Churches. Some of them use the Julian calendar as the liturgical one (which is 13 late to the state calendar) and some the revised-Julian calendar (which until 2800 is the same as the state calendar)
- the sc 'old Calendarist / True Churches' that emerged in 1920s' (they think we emerged then) due to the introduction of the revised-Julian calendar. They also oppose some other practices of the 'World Orthodoxy' like ecumenism, shaving etc. They are divided into several communions.
- the ethnic Churches that proclaimed themselves autocephalous but they are not (yet?) recognised as such by the rest of the Churches. They also are divided in several communions.

The 'World Orthodox Church' is both calendar.
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2011, 11:58:43 AM »

How do you tell if a church is or isnt canonical??

I don't know. I'm not even sure what that word means. However, if you are talking about the Orthodox Church that most people think of, the group of Local Churches in Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Moscow, etc. that are in communion with each other, then they are listed here under the "Eastern Orthodox Churches (in full communion)" subtitle. Scroll down to "Eastern Orthodox Churches (not in communion)" for some of the ones not in communion with the first group of Churches, such as HOCNA.

Quote
Does The Holy Orthodox Church in North America think theyre canonical?? Why are they not?

They think they're Orthodox. Other Orthodox think a range of things about them: they're Orthodox, they're schismatic, etc. The number of Orthodox who consider HOCA Orthodox is incredibly small; but then majority rule doesn't decide who is right. As to whether they are right or not, well that's a whole encyclopedia set of a topic. To oversimplify things: If they are Orthodox it's because they are rightly rebelling against ecumenism; if they are not Orthodox it's because they are wrongfully rebelling against the Orthodox Church.

In the Orthodox Church, people cannot just run off and create their own churches as HOCNA has done.  They were part of ROCOR until former monks of Holy Transfiguration Monastery started coming forward with very serious accusations against the abbot of a sexual and perverted nature.  The ROCOR Synod moved to suspend the abbot and other clergy at the monastery until a canonical trial could be held, but the monastery responded by suddenly announcing that they had left ROCOR and were now under two bishops in Greece who were not in communion with anyone.  According to the canons, you cannot leave your bishop and go under another bishop for any reason.  If your bishop is openly teaching blatant heresy you can cease to commemorate him, but you cannot run off and create some new “church”.  This is Protestantism.  So, after creating a new “church” with two independent Greek bishops (Akakios and Gabriel), there was a split and they were left with only one bishop, Akakios.  Not happy with this arrangement, the monastery left Akakios (again without any canonical justification), and joined an Old Calendarist Archbishop (Auxentius) who had a few “bishops” with him but was also not in communion with anyone.  After the Archbishop made some of their (suspended) clergy into bishops, following Archbishop Auxentius’ repose the “bishops” from the monastery quickly found that they were the only ones left in their self-made “church” (some bishops they ran out of their Synod, one reposed, another left them because of the allegations of immorality, etc.).  Soon enough, the Holy Transfiguration Monastery “bishops” were the only bishops in their Synod and they had no communion with anyone else.  Currently, HOCNA has only three bishops, all of whom were formed at Holy Transfiguration Monastery, and two of whom still reside there.  From the perspective of ROCOR, HOCNA consists of suspended clergy and runaways who left the Orthodox Church without a canonical release and without a canonical reason for the sole purpose of preventing their abbot from having to answer for the serious allegations that have been made against him by former monks of the monastery.  Yes, their churches are beautiful, they have great church order, many of their people are pious, their icons and publications are good, translations are great, etc., but they are in a very untenable position and remain under a cloud of suspicion on account of the manner in which they left ROCOR. 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 12:00:13 PM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2011, 12:02:16 PM »

Thank you for the link. Their ecclesiology seem to be pretty similar to conservative Lutherans.

I don't think that's really a correct assumption, but then again this is my opinion. HOCNA just allows for the distribution of sacraments to people who are still part of the same traditional Orthodox Church, but who may not be in communion with HOCNA for one reason or another. Isn't the Romanian (or the Russian, I'm not sure) Patriarchate and the Jerusalem Patriarchate currently not in communion with each other? But if a layperson from the Jerusalem Patriarchate went to Romania, most likely wouldn't the Romanians give them communion? And I formerly went to a World Orthodox parish that would give communion to the Oriental Orthodox, and I hear this is not an uncommon circumstance, especially in the middle east. Sadly all of the TOC synods are not in communion with each other for one reason or another. HOCNA recognizes that these reasons are not really due to the faith so they allow for some inter-communion, but only with other people in a TOC synod.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 12:06:50 PM by searn77 » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2011, 12:30:24 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided
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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2011, 12:43:51 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided
I pray it does happen. However do we REALLY have to accept the holy rollers? Cant we make a kid's table for them or something?

PP
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2011, 01:10:47 AM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided
I pray it does happen. However do we REALLY have to accept the holy rollers? Cant we make a kid's table for them or something?

PP

hahahaha! might not be a bad idea...
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2011, 10:29:48 AM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided
I pray it does happen. However do we REALLY have to accept the holy rollers? Cant we make a kid's table for them or something?

PP

hahahaha! might not be a bad idea...
Timmy! you put down that snake, stop that gibberish and eat your carrots!!!!

PP
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2011, 05:22:55 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided
There already truly is a One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, regardless of how many people go into schism from it.

It's just sometimes hard to tell which group it actually is.
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2011, 09:14:25 PM »

How do you tell if a church is or isnt canonical??

I don't know. I'm not even sure what that word means. However, if you are talking about the Orthodox Church that most people think of, the group of Local Churches in Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Moscow, etc. that are in communion with each other, then they are listed here under the "Eastern Orthodox Churches (in full communion)" subtitle. Scroll down to "Eastern Orthodox Churches (not in communion)" for some of the ones not in communion with the first group of Churches, such as HOCNA.

Quote
Does The Holy Orthodox Church in North America think theyre canonical?? Why are they not?

They think they're Orthodox. Other Orthodox think a range of things about them: they're Orthodox, they're schismatic, etc. The number of Orthodox who consider HOCA Orthodox is incredibly small; but then majority rule doesn't decide who is right. As to whether they are right or not, well that's a whole encyclopedia set of a topic. To oversimplify things: If they are Orthodox it's because they are rightly rebelling against ecumenism; if they are not Orthodox it's because they are wrongfully rebelling against the Orthodox Church.

In the Orthodox Church, people cannot just run off and create their own churches as HOCNA has done.  They were part of ROCOR until former monks of Holy Transfiguration Monastery started coming forward with very serious accusations against the abbot of a sexual and perverted nature.  The ROCOR Synod moved to suspend the abbot and other clergy at the monastery until a canonical trial could be held, but the monastery responded by suddenly announcing that they had left ROCOR and were now under two bishops in Greece who were not in communion with anyone.  According to the canons, you cannot leave your bishop and go under another bishop for any reason.  If your bishop is openly teaching blatant heresy you can cease to commemorate him, but you cannot run off and create some new “church”.  This is Protestantism.  So, after creating a new “church” with two independent Greek bishops (Akakios and Gabriel), there was a split and they were left with only one bishop, Akakios.  Not happy with this arrangement, the monastery left Akakios (again without any canonical justification), and joined an Old Calendarist Archbishop (Auxentius) who had a few “bishops” with him but was also not in communion with anyone.  After the Archbishop made some of their (suspended) clergy into bishops, following Archbishop Auxentius’ repose the “bishops” from the monastery quickly found that they were the only ones left in their self-made “church” (some bishops they ran out of their Synod, one reposed, another left them because of the allegations of immorality, etc.).  Soon enough, the Holy Transfiguration Monastery “bishops” were the only bishops in their Synod and they had no communion with anyone else.  Currently, HOCNA has only three bishops, all of whom were formed at Holy Transfiguration Monastery, and two of whom still reside there.  From the perspective of ROCOR, HOCNA consists of suspended clergy and runaways who left the Orthodox Church without a canonical release and without a canonical reason for the sole purpose of preventing their abbot from having to answer for the serious allegations that have been made against him by former monks of the monastery.  Yes, their churches are beautiful, they have great church order, many of their people are pious, their icons and publications are good, translations are great, etc., but they are in a very untenable position and remain under a cloud of suspicion on account of the manner in which they left ROCOR.  

Please explain the difference between ceasing to commemorate your bishop and "running off and founding your own church". If the bishop is where the Church is, even the cessation of commemoration of a bishop for heresy is still "founding your own church".
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 09:18:17 PM by Jonathan Gress » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2011, 09:15:19 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided
There already truly is a One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, regardless of how many people go into schism from it.

It's just sometimes hard to tell which group it actually is.
Preach it, brother! Cheesy

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2011, 09:26:24 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
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« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2011, 09:52:50 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
I think few would disagree with that (I certainly wouldn't), but you and Timon might have to unpack that a bit. Smiley It seems to me at face value that it is saying there is no One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church unless all "Christians", however broadly you want to define the term, are a part of it. If that's the case, then I would disagree.  angel

I believe there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I am exceeding grateful that God has led me here and I pray daily that those outside of His Church will join us. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2011, 10:14:39 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
Preach ecclesiological heresy? That ain't good.  Sad

Saying that we could "truly" form the Church means that the Church is not truly Catholic, Holy, One and Apostolic as it stands. That is heretical. The Church is eternal, and so is its holiness, unity, catholicity and apostolicity.
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2011, 10:33:54 PM »

I sort of understood the original post to imply that the other churches would 'come back' to the Orthodox outlook and practice, if you will, and that would enable them to join the fold again. Don't let's have a stick up our caboose.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2011, 10:35:44 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
I think few would disagree with that (I certainly wouldn't), but you and Timon might have to unpack that a bit. Smiley It seems to me at face value that it is saying there is no One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church unless all "Christians", however broadly you want to define the term, are a part of it. If that's the case, then I would disagree.  angel

I believe there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I am exceeding grateful that God has led me here and I pray daily that those outside of His Church will join us. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

Sheesh, I was just saying it would be nice if they came back. I promise not to be nice anymore.  Tongue
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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2011, 10:47:47 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
I think few would disagree with that (I certainly wouldn't), but you and Timon might have to unpack that a bit. Smiley It seems to me at face value that it is saying there is no One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church unless all "Christians", however broadly you want to define the term, are a part of it. If that's the case, then I would disagree.  angel

I believe there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I am exceeding grateful that God has led me here and I pray daily that those outside of His Church will join us. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

Sheesh, I was just saying it would be nice if they came back. I promise not to be nice anymore.  Tongue
No probalo! I wasn't implying anything. Don't shoot! Cheesy  angel

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2011, 02:34:36 AM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
Preach ecclesiological heresy? That ain't good.  Sad

Saying that we could "truly" form the Church means that the Church is not truly Catholic, Holy, One and Apostolic as it stands. That is heretical. The Church is eternal, and so is its holiness, unity, catholicity and apostolicity.
Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
I think few would disagree with that (I certainly wouldn't), but you and Timon might have to unpack that a bit. Smiley It seems to me at face value that it is saying there is no One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church unless all "Christians", however broadly you want to define the term, are a part of it. If that's the case, then I would disagree.  angel

I believe there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I am exceeding grateful that God has led me here and I pray daily that those outside of His Church will join us. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

whoa whoa whoa... ok. so my wording was off.

i do also believe that there is "truly" One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and I believe that is the Orthodox church.  i think my point was that it would be nice if one day all Christians would come back to their roots and we could all be reunited.  Sorry if I offended anyone.  After re-reading, i see how it came out wrong.   Didnt mean for it too, trust me...  Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2011, 04:12:53 AM »

Some comments about issues discussed above...

Earlier in this topic someone asked for a link to determin whether a parish is canonical, i.e. in Communion with the Holy Orthodox Churches, or not.  In connection with North America (possibly Central and South America to some extent-I'm not sure), the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North America has a link to the former SCOBA (Standing Conference of [Canonical] Orthodox Bishops in the Americas) roster of parishes included within each of the member bishop's ecclesial jurisdictions.  I think these lists are based on the yearbooks of each jurisdiction.

One of the tasks required of the Episcopal Assemblies by the IV Pre-Conciliar Commission-Chambesy, is to identify the groups and parishes within their respective geographic regions that are not in Communion with the Holy Orthodox Churches.

I also wanted to compliment the poster of Reply No. 18 above; that was a comprehensive, fair and rational explanation of the history or the Hellenic Orthodox Church of North America, based on what I have read from several sources, one of which was from within the "traditionalist" movement.  I wasn't aware that their bishops were the only remaining bishops in their jurisdiction.

Another note from matters I noticed that were addressed above, the consistent marks of the separated, or Old Calendar-traditionalist churches, in my estimation, is absolute opposition to the ecumenical relations which nearly all of the Holy Orthodox Churches maintain with the other Trinitarian Christian denominations--they are particularly disturbed with the Ecumenical Patriarchate's relationship with the Vatican; they tend to adhere to the Julian Calendar because they perceive the conversion to the so called Revised Julian Calendar (which is essentially the Gregorian Calendar) is attributable to a desire to celebrate the major feast days with the heterodox, the other Christian denominations; the lessening of the church's fasting guidelines; and criticism of the clergy's abandonment of the traditional (at least since the late 15th century) street attire; i.e. not wearing the rasson and exorason outside of the church.  As we all know, these issues are debated among all who are within the Holy Orthodox Churches, too, and several of these topics are on the agenda for the forthcoming Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church, a proposed assembly which some of them mock as the "Eighth Council," a characterization which none of the Holy Orthodox Churches or any of the pre-conciliar commissions have ever attempted to assert.

I find it quite anomalous, and very sad, that this jurisdiction (HOCNA) produces the finest of English language Divine Services (both the language used by the translators and the beauty of the graphics in their publications), along with well executed iconography, yet, is (or was, at least at its founding--I don't know) beset with reported perverse and non-canonical behavior by some of its leadership.
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« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2011, 09:46:12 AM »

Thank you for the link. Their ecclesiology seem to be pretty similar to conservative Lutherans.

I don't think that's really a correct assumption, but then again this is my opinion. HOCNA just allows for the distribution of sacraments to people who are still part of the same traditional Orthodox Church, but who may not be in communion with HOCNA for one reason or another.

And conservative Lutherans allow distribution of sacraments to people who are conservative Lutherans regardless of whether they are officially communion with them or not and regardless of some theological differences. I've understood that there are still some doctrinal differences between different Old Calendarist churches so for me it seems the situation is pretty similar with confessional Lutherans.

However I didn't mean this comparison with Lutherans as a criticism. For me that kind of ecumenist angel more liberal distribution of sacraments seems a little questionable but then again I don't know much about these kind of issues. Who knows, maybe they are right.

Quote
Isn't the Romanian (or the Russian, I'm not sure) Patriarchate and the Jerusalem Patriarchate currently not in communion with each other? But if a layperson from the Jerusalem Patriarchate went to Romania, most likely wouldn't the Romanians give them communion?

I believe it's not a doctrinal issue as it is among different variety of Lutherans and Old Calendarist EOs. Also, Bucharest and Jerusalem are both in communion with other mainstream EO churches.

Quote
And I formerly went to a World Orthodox parish that would give communion to the Oriental Orthodox, and I hear this is not an uncommon circumstance, especially in the middle east.

At this point I agree. That is a little similar situation as it is among the conservative Lutherans.
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2011, 10:55:28 AM »

Thank you for the link. Their ecclesiology seem to be pretty similar to conservative Lutherans.

I don't think that's really a correct assumption, but then again this is my opinion. HOCNA just allows for the distribution of sacraments to people who are still part of the same traditional Orthodox Church, but who may not be in communion with HOCNA for one reason or another.

And conservative Lutherans allow distribution of sacraments to people who are conservative Lutherans regardless of whether they are officially communion with them or not and regardless of some theological differences. I've understood that there are still some doctrinal differences between different Old Calendarist churches so for me it seems the situation is pretty similar with confessional Lutherans.

However I didn't mean this comparison with Lutherans as a criticism. For me that kind of ecumenist angel more liberal distribution of sacraments seems a little questionable but then again I don't know much about these kind of issues. Who knows, maybe they are right.

Quote
Isn't the Romanian (or the Russian, I'm not sure) Patriarchate and the Jerusalem Patriarchate currently not in communion with each other? But if a layperson from the Jerusalem Patriarchate went to Romania, most likely wouldn't the Romanians give them communion?

I believe it's not a doctrinal issue as it is among different variety of Lutherans and Old Calendarist EOs. Also, Bucharest and Jerusalem are both in communion with other mainstream EO churches.

Quote
And I formerly went to a World Orthodox parish that would give communion to the Oriental Orthodox, and I hear this is not an uncommon circumstance, especially in the middle east.

At this point I agree. That is a little similar situation as it is among the conservative Lutherans.

Okay, now I understand what you're saying a little better. So I guess it can be compared somewhat to conservative Lutherans. But it's not due to doctrinal reasons why many TOCs are not in communion with each other as much as it is due to historical circumstances and misunderstandings.
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« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2011, 11:38:50 AM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
They would have to leave their Ultramontanism and Protestantism at the door to form, rather join, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2011, 12:03:07 PM »

Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
Preach ecclesiological heresy? That ain't good.  Sad

Saying that we could "truly" form the Church means that the Church is not truly Catholic, Holy, One and Apostolic as it stands. That is heretical. The Church is eternal, and so is its holiness, unity, catholicity and apostolicity.
Thanks for the replies.  Though confusing, the explanations helped a lot!

Wouldnt it be nice if everyone (even RC and protestants) could reunite and truly form One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church??

Maybe one day....  Undecided

Preach it, brother!  angel angel angel
I think few would disagree with that (I certainly wouldn't), but you and Timon might have to unpack that a bit. Smiley It seems to me at face value that it is saying there is no One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church unless all "Christians", however broadly you want to define the term, are a part of it. If that's the case, then I would disagree.  angel

I believe there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I am exceeding grateful that God has led me here and I pray daily that those outside of His Church will join us. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew

whoa whoa whoa... ok. so my wording was off.

i do also believe that there is "truly" One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and I believe that is the Orthodox church.  i think my point was that it would be nice if one day all Christians would come back to their roots and we could all be reunited.  Sorry if I offended anyone.  After re-reading, i see how it came out wrong.   Didnt mean for it too, trust me...  Smiley
No problem! I didn't think you meant what you wrote in the way it came across. I was just asking for clarification. Mostly for those who lurk and never post on here who might accidentally take what you wrote as I thought you did. There will be no public beatings. Smiley All is well.

In Christ,
Andrew
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