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« on: September 23, 2011, 03:28:03 PM »


My boss's father just passed away (may he rest in peace). 

Monday will be the "Funeral Mass".

This is my direct boss, not someone I don't know way up the ladder.  I deal with him daily, and I truly do sympathize, and would like to be at the funeral.

However, it sounds like a full blown "Mass".  So, what's one to do?

Is it permissible to attend a "Funeral Mass"?

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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 03:31:54 PM »

 why does this question pop up with so much frequency ?
Of course, it's the human(e) thing to do.
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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2011, 03:33:07 PM »

It'd better be okay because I have to attend masses all the time for my family.
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2011, 03:33:44 PM »

I am not Orthodox (yet), but I think there is a marked difference between celebrating the Mass every week or telling RC family members that "It's all the same, I'll attend with you one week and go to my Orthodox church next week," and attending to honor his memory. Just do not take Communion, which I'm sure you know.
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2011, 03:53:45 PM »


My boss's father just passed away (may he rest in peace). 

Monday will be the "Funeral Mass".

This is my direct boss, not someone I don't know way up the ladder.  I deal with him daily, and I truly do sympathize, and would like to be at the funeral.

However, it sounds like a full blown "Mass".  So, what's one to do?

Is it permissible to attend a "Funeral Mass"?


I don't see why not, so long as you don't participate (praying, kneeling, receiving communion etc.).

I would still ask your priest for his blessing prior to the funeral though.
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2011, 03:59:15 PM »

I'd like to see a person who forbids attending funeral of ones friends. Talk about loving ones neighbours. Lips Sealed
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2011, 04:03:42 PM »

I don't see a problem with it. You're not missing an Orthodox service for it, and we are obligated to pray for the dead.

As for participation, ask your priest, but I would still cross myself before and after the Gospel (because it's still the Gospel, regardless of who's reading it) and stand and sit with everyone else. Unless a particular hymn was despicably un-Orthodox, I would sing along (because we claim all truth, regardless of who wrote it). If there was some kind of antiphonal reading from the Psalter I'd participate (because it's our Psalter too).

Otherwise, just sit quietly and pray the Jesus prayer for his repose. There's never anything wrong with that!
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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2011, 04:46:50 PM »


Great advice!

Thanks!
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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2011, 04:47:00 PM »

I concur with Fr., my sis-in-law is getting her baby dunked next Saturday at the RC Church and I'm going.  My family that is Catholic, I go to their weddings, funerals, baptisms, etc.. Yes I sing hymns, they are really paraliturgical if you think about it, and I grew up Greek Catholic and went to Catholic school and such. My favorite is giving the sign of peace during high mass, I like the sign of peace, I don't care that you aren't supposed to do it in a high mass and no one stops me lol, ok, I only did it once, and before high mass they sang AWESOME latin carols, and we all sang along.  
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2011, 04:48:24 PM »

I don't see any problem. It's the Christian thing to do. Even some of the prayers or the kneelings.

The concept of "not praying with heretics" is to not confirm them in their error, for example, going to a Roman mass for no reason at all, just to please one's own ideals or political agenda.

Confess the Creed without the Filioque (nobody will be paying attention). Pray for the common saints, angels, the Virgin Mary. Be discrete if they pray using the "Immaculate Conception". Politely decline having comunion if offered. Say it's because you have not fasted and have not confessed. It's not the place for theological comments. You will be in their house. Like any guest, be grateful and respectful.



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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2011, 04:51:32 PM »

Fabio, to be considered a heretic you must have been a practicing Orthodox Christian who then goes out and teaches things contrary to the faith and attempt to gain followers for that non-Orthodox teaching.  So calling Roman Catholics "heretics" is just not the right use of the word heretic.
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2011, 05:09:11 PM »

The concept of "not praying with heretics" is to not confirm them in their error, for example, going to a Roman mass for no reason at all, just to please one's own ideals or political agenda.
I'm not so sure its limited to that. The canons also prohibit praying at home with heretics (i.e. something private and lacking political agenda). The reasons for the canon are theological as well as social.
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2011, 05:17:16 PM »

The concept of "not praying with heretics" is to not confirm them in their error, for example, going to a Roman mass for no reason at all, just to please one's own ideals or political agenda.
I'm not so sure its limited to that. The canons also prohibit praying at home with heretics (i.e. something private and lacking political agenda). The reasons for the canon are theological as well as social.

No, it's the fact that we as people don't have the right to call someone a heretic.  The administrators, BISHOPS may have the right to declare someone a heretic, but you have to know what Orthodoxy is, ie, have been a participating Orthodox Christian first.  And calling someone a heretic that isn't really a heretic by church decree is mean, just because someone doesn't agree with the way you think doesn't give us the right to call them such a nasty name, heretic.  Because it is a label saved for only those that attempt to destroy the Orthodox Church they once loved through false teachings.
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2011, 05:39:27 PM »

The concept of "not praying with heretics" is to not confirm them in their error, for example, going to a Roman mass for no reason at all, just to please one's own ideals or political agenda.
I'm not so sure its limited to that. The canons also prohibit praying at home with heretics (i.e. something private and lacking political agenda). The reasons for the canon are theological as well as social.

No, it's the fact that we as people don't have the right to call someone a heretic.  The administrators, BISHOPS may have the right to declare someone a heretic, but you have to know what Orthodoxy is, ie, have been a participating Orthodox Christian first.  And calling someone a heretic that isn't really a heretic by church decree is mean, just because someone doesn't agree with the way you think doesn't give us the right to call them such a nasty name, heretic.  Because it is a label saved for only those that attempt to destroy the Orthodox Church they once loved through false teachings.
Two points : St. Mark of Ephesus (a bishop) stated :

"The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics"

The Latins were quite removed from Orthodoxy by this time.

The sentiment expressed in the 15th canon of the Eighth Ecumenical Council clearly contradicts the idea that such actions must always be done in unison with the bishop.
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2011, 11:36:24 PM »

The concept of "not praying with heretics" is to not confirm them in their error, for example, going to a Roman mass for no reason at all, just to please one's own ideals or political agenda.
I'm not so sure its limited to that. The canons also prohibit praying at home with heretics (i.e. something private and lacking political agenda). The reasons for the canon are theological as well as social.

No, it's the fact that we as people don't have the right to call someone a heretic.  The administrators, BISHOPS may have the right to declare someone a heretic, but you have to know what Orthodoxy is, ie, have been a participating Orthodox Christian first.  And calling someone a heretic that isn't really a heretic by church decree is mean, just because someone doesn't agree with the way you think doesn't give us the right to call them such a nasty name, heretic.  Because it is a label saved for only those that attempt to destroy the Orthodox Church they once loved through false teachings.


That never existed. Neither Arian, nor Nestorian nor any heretic that ever existed thought or acted thinking that they were out to destroy the Church. Each and everyone of them thought of themselves as the true Orthodox. A heretic never was something like a person who "once loved" the Church and then out of grief slanders her. Heretics are precisely those who believe and preach wrong teachings thinking they are right.
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2011, 12:07:05 AM »

Orthodox bishops attended the funeral of Pope John Paul II.  I should think you are allowed to attend this funeral.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2011, 10:30:12 AM »

My boss's father just passed away (may he rest in peace). 

Monday will be the "Funeral Mass".

This is my direct boss, not someone I don't know way up the ladder.  I deal with him daily, and I truly do sympathize, and would like to be at the funeral.

However, it sounds like a full blown "Mass".  So, what's one to do?

Is it permissible to attend a "Funeral Mass"?

I wouldn't receive communion, and I would hold a silent pause while everyone said the filioque. That's what I would do anyway.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2011, 10:44:03 AM »

I wouldn't receive communion, and I would hold a silent pause while everyone said the filioque. That's what I would do anyway.

The canons actually require devout Orthodox to aurally deliver the noise a loud gameshow buzzer during the Filioque, because it's the wrong answer. It's also considered polite at funerals.
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2011, 11:04:11 AM »

I wouldn't receive communion, and I would hold a silent pause while everyone said the filioque. That's what I would do anyway.

The canons actually require devout Orthodox to aurally deliver the noise a loud gameshow buzzer during the Filioque, because it's the wrong answer. It's also considered polite at funerals.

I'll try that the next chance I get, but seriously, while avoiding doing those two things I would to the best of my ability try to follow the advice of St Ambrose.
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2011, 09:36:16 PM »

Politely decline having comunion if offered. Say it's because you have not fasted and have not confessed. It's not the place for theological comments. You will be in their house. Like any guest, be grateful and respectful.
Why?

It is not unusual for guests at Catholic funerals or weddings to not receive. There are often family members who are not Catholic. No one is going to question you. Even if they did, there's no need to be deceptive about your reason for not receiving. You can just say "I'm not Catholic" and leave it at that. No one will be offended that you're paying your respects and obeying the RC Church's teaching about no open communion.
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2011, 01:02:42 AM »

I mean no disrespect to the OP, as I have certainly asked my fair share of questions here, but one of the only things left that I don't quite understand about Orthodoxy is why we have to make sure we have approval to do certain things.  Sure, somethings are appropriate to ask about, but why do we feel the need to ask permission to attend a funeral at a church that is of another denomination?

It just seems like every post, especially among new people like myself, is asking "is it ok to do this/that."

I would certainly not miss a funeral of someone important to you just because it's at a RC church. If you only went to orthodox funerals, you'd probably, over time of course, miss a lot of funerals for people whom you care about.

Again, I didn't mean this to sound rude. Just wondering why we feel the need to ask such things when the answer, to me anyways, seems obvious.

Jeez I sound like a jerk, but I Promise I'm not trying to be.

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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 03:59:25 PM »


Timon, I would have gone no matter what the answers were.

However, I wished for other's input.  Due to the many replies, plus PM's, I was better able to handle myself, knowing what to expect. 

It's not that I needed "approval", it's that I was looking for some assistance.

I've never been to an RC service, and was looking for input from those who have.

Besides, I often find that what I think, is not always what the Church teaches, and I would rather be on the safe side.  I don't simply go by my own "feelings".

The ONLY reason you would find me at an RC service was because it was a "funeral" and I was there to give support to the bereaved.

OK.

So, now that I've survived the ordeal.....it has made me appreciate Orthodoxy all the more!!!

It was nice....it just seemed informal, almost irreverent, and completely lacking in some areas. 

 

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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 10:58:44 PM »


My boss's father just passed away (may he rest in peace). 

Monday will be the "Funeral Mass".

This is my direct boss, not someone I don't know way up the ladder.  I deal with him daily, and I truly do sympathize, and would like to be at the funeral.

However, it sounds like a full blown "Mass".  So, what's one to do?

Is it permissible to attend a "Funeral Mass"?



I once heard a Bishop say "There's one thing to attend in respect for others on rare occasions, but steer clear of any sacrament, and don't say the filioque".  Very close to that anyway (he had an accent).
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 11:49:03 PM »

Of course you can go to a funeral mass. We aren't Jehovah's Witnesses. My whole family is Catholic and I could not even imagine if I didn't attend the funeral. I even did a reading! Shocked Even kneeling at the mass wouldn't be wrong. Do it out of courtesy and politeness. Kneel to God, not to the pope.

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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 11:52:38 PM »


My boss's father just passed away (may he rest in peace).  

Monday will be the "Funeral Mass".

This is my direct boss, not someone I don't know way up the ladder.  I deal with him daily, and I truly do sympathize, and would like to be at the funeral.

However, it sounds like a full blown "Mass".  So, what's one to do?

Is it permissible to attend a "Funeral Mass"?


I don't see why not, so long as you don't participate (praying, kneeling, receiving communion etc.).

I would still ask your priest for his blessing prior to the funeral though.

Ioannis Climacus, what's wrong with praying and kneeling?  I find kneeling to be a very humbling state for your body to be in, and therefore your mind naturally feels like it should be in a more humble state.  Especially when you look up in front of the Church and there's a huge statue of Jesus hanging on the cross.  It's always like "whoah" because you don't really think of all of the ramifications of what happened 2,000 years ago -- or at least we try to avoid thinking in the negative about it anyways.  

If you kneel just kneel, we kneel in my Greek church.  Just pray the Jesus prayer, or whatever that would be in alignment with Orthodoxy without too much visualization (i.e. Rosary, Sacred Heart, etc.).   However I do understand why it's wrong to receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church... I just don't get the whole big deal about praying and kneeling...
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2011, 11:59:16 PM »

I wouldn't receive communion, and I would hold a silent pause while everyone said the filioque. That's what I would do anyway.

The canons actually require devout Orthodox to aurally deliver the noise a loud gameshow buzzer during the Filioque, because it's the wrong answer. It's also considered polite at funerals.

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« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2011, 12:11:51 AM »

Sure go to the funeral of course! But don't be surprised if you notice the glaring absence of orthodox chanting and iconography....
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« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2011, 06:55:59 AM »


Ioannis Climacus, what's wrong with praying and kneeling?  I find kneeling to be a very humbling state for your body to be in, and therefore your mind naturally feels like it should be in a more humble state.  Especially when you look up in front of the Church and there's a huge statue of Jesus hanging on the cross.  It's always like "whoah" because you don't really think of all of the ramifications of what happened 2,000 years ago -- or at least we try to avoid thinking in the negative about it anyways.  

If you kneel just kneel, we kneel in my Greek church.  Just pray the Jesus prayer, or whatever that would be in alignment with Orthodoxy without too much visualization (i.e. Rosary, Sacred Heart, etc.).   However I do understand why it's wrong to receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church... I just don't get the whole big deal about praying and kneeling...
These are pretty much my thoughts as well. Also, I think it wise to stand or kneel along with others (if physically able to do so, or course) simply to avoid drawing attention to oneself.
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« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2011, 07:12:11 AM »

In America, we live in a very pluralistic society and are members of a very minority faith in this land; I don't think our church would prohibit us from expressing our sympathies to heterodox friends and acquaintances by attending their services.  The Ecumenical Patriarch and a delegation of Orthodox clergy attended the Funeral-Mass of the Pope John-Paul II.

If we find ourselves praying, by all means, cross yourself at appropriate times.  I find myself uncomfortable shaking hands during the Roman Catholic services, but don't fight it when approached.  However, recite the Creed with the proper terminology!
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« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2011, 09:10:02 AM »

I mean no disrespect to the OP, as I have certainly asked my fair share of questions here, but one of the only things left that I don't quite understand about Orthodoxy is why we have to make sure we have approval to do certain things. 

We don't. American Orthodoxy just happens to be pretty clericalist.

(The OP doesn't necessarily fall under that indictment.)
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« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2011, 09:30:16 AM »

I mean no disrespect to the OP, as I have certainly asked my fair share of questions here, but one of the only things left that I don't quite understand about Orthodoxy is why we have to make sure we have approval to do certain things. 

We don't. American Orthodoxy just happens to be pretty clericalist.

(The OP doesn't necessarily fall under that indictment.)
Yes, it's not so much approval that we need but guidance. Many of us became Orthodox later in life and those of us in non-traditionally Orthodox countries live in a society that does not understand Orthodoxy. Thus it is quite proper to seek such guidance to avoid our all "doing our own thing".
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« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2011, 11:37:17 AM »

Of course you can go to a funeral mass. We aren't Jehovah's Witnesses. My whole family is Catholic and I could not even imagine if I didn't attend the funeral. I even did a reading! Shocked Even kneeling at the mass wouldn't be wrong. Do it out of courtesy and politeness. Kneel to God, not to the pope.



most funerals Masses, as the norm, are not celebrated on Sundays, so kneeling should be a non-issue(i think)
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« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2011, 12:33:28 PM »

Ioannis Climacus, what's wrong with praying and kneeling?  I find kneeling to be a very humbling state for your body to be in, and therefore your mind naturally feels like it should be in a more humble state.  Especially when you look up in front of the Church and there's a huge statue of Jesus hanging on the cross.  It's always like "whoah" because you don't really think of all of the ramifications of what happened 2,000 years ago -- or at least we try to avoid thinking in the negative about it anyways.
Because kneeling is a posture of prayer (i.e. something no Orthodox should ever consider doing with Latins), as well as an acknowledgment of their Eucharist.

If you kneel just kneel, we kneel in my Greek church.  Just pray the Jesus prayer, or whatever that would be in alignment with Orthodoxy without too much visualization (i.e. Rosary, Sacred Heart, etc.).   However I do understand why it's wrong to receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church... I just don't get the whole big deal about praying and kneeling...
Read the canons of the Church. Follow the writings of the fathers. It is quite clear that praying with the heterodox is strictly forbidden.
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« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2011, 12:41:22 PM »

I mean no disrespect to the OP, as I have certainly asked my fair share of questions here, but one of the only things left that I don't quite understand about Orthodoxy is why we have to make sure we have approval to do certain things. 

We don't. American Orthodoxy just happens to be pretty clericalist.

(The OP doesn't necessarily fall under that indictment.)
Yes, it's not so much approval that we need but guidance. Many of us became Orthodox later in life and those of us in non-traditionally Orthodox countries live in a society that does not understand Orthodoxy. Thus it is quite proper to seek such guidance to avoid our all "doing our own thing".

Understood.  Im certainly asking many of my own questions as well as I certainly need guidance.  Its just a different world from what im used to. Still learning!
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« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2011, 02:32:50 PM »


Okay...here's an update.

I did go the RC Funeral Mass.  I tried not to "pray" with them!  Wink 

I certainly didn't sing along during the hymns - which were rather pretty, but, not what I would categorize as "church music".   Of course the piano and drum set might have added to that interpretation.

I didn't give replies, however.....during the hand shake moment.....which was rather distracting.....I was frozen to my spot.  Thankfully, I decided to stand in the back and there weren't many people around me.  The only other person near me was my coworker who came late, and he was at the other end of the bench.  So, here's what happened.  He and I have been butting heads the last week....to the point that he was throwing things around and simply making my life miserable....all because I wouldn't give up my new cube to him.  So, I took the opportunity to walk over to him and say "Even though I wouldn't give up my cube to you, I still wish you peace."...reached out and took his hand with a smile.  He was lost...and could do nothing but shake my hand and smile.  This broke the ice of a week's tenseness.

Other than that one good moment, the rest seemed odd.  I did cross myself and pay attention to the Gospel reading and I did cross myself and say the Lord's prayer.  However, the rest of it I just stood silently, battled a huge tension headache!

No disrespect to the RC's on this forum, but, the whole thing seemed a bit irreverent.  First, I was put off by the altar just being in the open (like a stage almost) and the priest looking straight at me.  When he raised his hands and prayed, it was almost as if he were praying to the audience.  You know?  There wasn't one icon (not even a statue!)  There was one wooden crucifixion hanging from wires over the front....made Jesus look like he was out for a flight.  Just odd...hanging there....in the middle of the air.

However, what I found discomfiting was that everyone had a right to march up to the altar.  5 family members of the deceased took a bottle of water, a bottle of wine, and some other stuff from a side table and marched up the middle in to the altar and handed the "offerings" to the priest, who then poured the wine, etc. into the chalice.

After consecrating the wafer and wine...he handed a wafer to each of 3 women who came up in to the altar...and then he gave one a chalice to drink from and the other...and the third (after taking a sip) was given a basket with wafers.  These women, in addition to the priest, came and stood at the steps and passed out Holy Communion.  EVERYONE went up  (except me).  Even my coworker who is a baptist...went up...and came back down the aisle snickering as he munched on what he called a "cookie".   Shocked  It all seemed wrong to me.

The woman with the wafers had extra, so she went back to the altar table and shook them out into a larger basket before putting the basket to the side.

The whole thing just seemed too "casual"...I don't know.

Nothing was done with the man in the casket.  No prayers were read over him, no wreath, no absolution, no nothing.  He was almost overlooked...other than for the fact he was in the "way" and folks had to step around him.

I am glad I went, I saw....and I came running back home!

Thank you everyone for your assistance, comments and advice.  At least I went with an idea of what to expect.
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« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2011, 02:51:39 PM »

(this is me speaking as a former catholic, and during the time where i was goign to enter a latin seminary) honestly, Liza, it all varies from parish to parish. there are some parishes which are exactly what you describe, but at the same time there are parishes that are worse, and some that are better. When my parish, which leans to the traditional side of the spectrum, has a visiting franciscan, who happened to be a priest, celebrate Mass, it was one of the most reverant things i have ever saw. On a different sunday however, a different priest did things that made me cringe and think the (i shouldnt have done it, but it is what happened) priest has no reverance for the Mass, whatsoever
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« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2011, 04:01:40 PM »

To (kind of) defend RCs about other people receiving Communion, sometimes if the churches are so big, the priest isn't even going to be able to question everyone who comes up. I have been the witness of him castigating people when he found out that they weren't Catholics, especially those who didn't know how to respond or hold their hands up. They aren't really okay with everyone taking Communion, but on the other hand, they don't actively ask every single person if they are a Catholic before receiving. But then again, we have one priest for thousands and thousands of members.
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« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2011, 04:17:43 PM »


No, I don't blame the priest for handing Communion to a Baptist.  I blame the Baptist for going up, in the first place.
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« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2011, 04:20:32 PM »


No, I don't blame the priest for handing Communion to a Baptist.  I blame the Baptist for going up, in the first place.

My statement wasn't directed at you. I just recall seeing posts from people thinking that Catholic priests hand out the communion to anyone who wants it. Believe me, if they knew that the person wasn't Catholic, they wouldn't be okay with it.

I can't stand when people go up, especially if they know it's not okay!
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« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2011, 05:12:44 PM »

I'm surprised nothing was done to the casket.  At the RC Funeral Mass I attended this past Winter for my friend's father, the priest sprinkled the casket upon entry into the church and upon its exist, with Holy Water and recited a beautiful prayer about the baptism of the resposed.  

The people presenting the water and wine is the Vatican II version of our Great Entrance.  

I agree with the casualness with which the Eucharist is treated, especially with laymen and women distributing it, who walk around the Sanctuary without robes to separate their human iniquity from the sanctity of the Sanctuary.

Another nice thing I observed at this funeral I attended last Winter, it was in an early 1950's era church, pre-Vatican II; embedded in bronze in the finished stone floor in front of me were the Greek letters which typically surround the crown of Christ in our icons, which stand for "I Am."

A benefit from attending today's Roman Catholic Masses is to sense a firmer appreciation for the beauty and antiquity of our Holy Eastern Orthodox Tradition.
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« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2011, 05:27:32 PM »


A benefit from attending today's Roman Catholic Masses is to sense a firmer appreciation for the beauty and antiquity of our Holy Eastern Orthodox Tradition.

Absolutely true!!!
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« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2011, 10:19:31 PM »

Read the canons of the Church. Follow the writings of the fathers. It is quite clear that praying with the heterodox is strictly forbidden.

No, praying with heretics is. And I'm sure this originally applied to praying with Arians and Nestorians. So when I'm in a Catholic Church during mass and they pray the Our Father, should I not say it? What about other prayers that could be used in an Orthodox Church. Permissible? Who's to say. I guess I should be excommunicated because I will cross myself and pray with my Catholic family before meals.  Shocked
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« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2011, 11:47:43 PM »

Read the canons of the Church. Follow the writings of the fathers. It is quite clear that praying with the heterodox is strictly forbidden.

No, praying with heretics is. And I'm sure this originally applied to praying with Arians and Nestorians. So when I'm in a Catholic Church during mass and they pray the Our Father, should I not say it? What about other prayers that could be used in an Orthodox Church. Permissible? Who's to say. I guess I should be excommunicated because I will cross myself and pray with my Catholic family before meals.  Shocked
The Latins are heretics, plain and simple. We have hundreds of years worth of writings (from saints and synods) to attest to that.

Here is what the man in your avatar had to say about common prayer : http://www.impantokratoros.gr/2B2CE92A.en.aspx

A good article on the guidelines regarding prayer with/around the heterodox : http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/prayheretics.aspx

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« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2011, 01:13:49 AM »

Ioannis Climacus, you are all over the place!  You say that one should not kneel with Catholics as it is a posture of prayer, but the second article you link to says, "When others pray, lower your head and pray an Orthodox prayer."  Isn't the bowing of the head also a posture of prayer?  Someone asks about attending a funeral and you use it as a platform to spread your sectarianism.

I pray that you find the words of our divine father St. John of San Francisco instructive (I have selected certain portions and placed below.  I have cited the entire thing at the bottom of this post for your reading pleasure.):

"...it is possible to meet "Orthodox" who are in fact sectarians at heart: fanatic, unloving, narrow minded, persistent in human precision, not hungering or thirsting after God’s truth, but gorged with their own presumptuous truth, strictly judging others from the summit of this their imaginary truth dogmatically correct from the outside, but lacking origin in the Spirit."

"Then as among heterodox Christians there are many who live in the truth of Orthodoxy through their spirit. There are sectarians who are aflame with the spirit and love of God and fellow man much more than some Orthodox, and that very spirit of fervent love for God and man is the mark of a true Orthodox life. Whoever among Orthodox does not possess it is not truly Orthodox, and whoever possesses it among non-Orthodox is truly Orthodox."

"The presence of such true Orthodox Christians may be observed among professed Orthodox as well as among Roman Catholics and among Protestants of all categories. It also may be observed among Russian sectarians, who have become sectarian, i.e. separated themselves in mind and experience from the dogmatic confession of the Church, partially from an inability to comprehend that confession in the Spirit, and partially from bad examples of the realization of that confession in life."

"Those who are Orthodox by their own profession and confirmation should understand that Orthodoxy is by no means a privilege, nor is it cause to judge others, nor is it pride. Orthodoxy, on the contrary, is humility. It is the confession of the fullness of the Truth, of righteousness and of love. Orthodoxy must win the victory only by its radiance, like the Lord Himself, and by no means through the use of cannon, steel or verbal (there is no difference). Orthodoxy does not shine forth in an Orthodox society that takes pride in its Orthodoxy. It shines forth in those who are humble in their Orthodoxy, who understand the purity of the faith, not only in their puny reasoning, but through the spirit through all their life."

http://www.holy-trinity.org/spirituality/john.sectarianism.html


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« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2011, 02:38:25 AM »

Read the canons of the Church. Follow the writings of the fathers. It is quite clear that praying with the heterodox is strictly forbidden.

No, praying with heretics is.

No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.
CANON XXXII of Laodicea

Obviously council of Laodicea was a local synod and I don't know whether it's canons were affirmed in some ecumenical synod. But it does seem to forbid praying with every non-Orthodox. Nothing personal though since I don't know how it should be applied.
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« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2011, 03:01:11 AM »

A Synod of the Orthodox Church has never declared the Roman Catholic Church to be in heresy.
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« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2011, 09:33:21 AM »

A Synod of the Orthodox Church has never declared the Roman Catholic Church to be in heresy.

That's questionable. The Great Synod of 1484, held in Constantinople, officially rejected the Council of Florence and formulated a service for receiving Latins who rejected their false dogmas.

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Dragas_RomanCatholic_2.html

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« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2011, 11:47:28 AM »

A Synod of the Orthodox Church has never declared the Roman Catholic Church to be in heresy.

I thought that Filioque was condemded in fourth council of Costantinople.
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« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2011, 12:57:55 AM »

As if councils are the sole source of Orthodox doctrine.
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« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2011, 08:10:50 AM »

I'm just still worked up over the Baptist eating the Death-Cookie.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
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« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2011, 09:21:01 AM »

Ioannis Climacus, you are all over the place!  You say that one should not kneel with Catholics as it is a posture of prayer, but the second article you link to says, "When others pray, lower your head and pray an Orthodox prayer."  Isn't the bowing of the head also a posture of prayer?  Someone asks about attending a funeral and you use it as a platform to spread your sectarianism.

I pray that you find the words of our divine father St. John of San Francisco instructive (I have selected certain portions and placed below.  I have cited the entire thing at the bottom of this post for your reading pleasure.):

"...it is possible to meet "Orthodox" who are in fact sectarians at heart: fanatic, unloving, narrow minded, persistent in human precision, not hungering or thirsting after God’s truth, but gorged with their own presumptuous truth, strictly judging others from the summit of this their imaginary truth dogmatically correct from the outside, but lacking origin in the Spirit."

"Then as among heterodox Christians there are many who live in the truth of Orthodoxy through their spirit. There are sectarians who are aflame with the spirit and love of God and fellow man much more than some Orthodox, and that very spirit of fervent love for God and man is the mark of a true Orthodox life. Whoever among Orthodox does not possess it is not truly Orthodox, and whoever possesses it among non-Orthodox is truly Orthodox."

"The presence of such true Orthodox Christians may be observed among professed Orthodox as well as among Roman Catholics and among Protestants of all categories. It also may be observed among Russian sectarians, who have become sectarian, i.e. separated themselves in mind and experience from the dogmatic confession of the Church, partially from an inability to comprehend that confession in the Spirit, and partially from bad examples of the realization of that confession in life."

"Those who are Orthodox by their own profession and confirmation should understand that Orthodoxy is by no means a privilege, nor is it cause to judge others, nor is it pride. Orthodoxy, on the contrary, is humility. It is the confession of the fullness of the Truth, of righteousness and of love. Orthodoxy must win the victory only by its radiance, like the Lord Himself, and by no means through the use of cannon, steel or verbal (there is no difference). Orthodoxy does not shine forth in an Orthodox society that takes pride in its Orthodoxy. It shines forth in those who are humble in their Orthodoxy, who understand the purity of the faith, not only in their puny reasoning, but through the spirit through all their life."

http://www.holy-trinity.org/spirituality/john.sectarianism.html




I really like this, it is very interesting and very true !

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« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2011, 12:22:44 PM »

"Praying with the heterodox" is also something where ikonomia applies. So I think everyone who is faced with such a situation should discuss it with his or her priest.
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« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2011, 01:44:30 PM »

A Synod of the Orthodox Church has never declared the Roman Catholic Church to be in heresy.
You say that as if it matters.

Are we catasynodics now? I thought we were catholics.
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