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Author Topic: Does Christianity inherently spread hate? Help me stop my possible apostasy.  (Read 5341 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2011, 05:37:07 PM »

Does democracy spread hate?

Yes.

Do democrats spread hate?

Yes.

Does totalitarianism spread hate?

Yes.

Do totalitarianism spread hate?

Yes.

Hmmmm.  seems we are out of luck.
This thread like all is getting off the OP. It wasn't anti-semetism per se.

Read the subject line.

Does Christianity spread hate?

Yes

Do Christians spread hate?

Yes

You can parse what Christian/ity is to a point where you can deny the above by begging the question or no True Scotsman, but anyone with a bit of sense would say yes.

But for Volnutt and certainly for the rest of us the question is what would Christ have us to be?

As said, Volnutt has come to terms with this for a moment regarding this question.

But any "Christian" who doesn't without qualification answer to the questions put forth by the subject line with yes is in delusion and probably not able to effectively deal with folks who Christianity and Christians have harmed.


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« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2011, 05:37:07 PM »

Please tell me what evils The Church has done. I haven't found a one.
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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2011, 06:17:34 PM »

Wow,

Papist and Isa finally agree and both are wrong.

How does this address the question in any meaningful way? Oh THEY are worse!

And was he suggesting a migration to the Early Roman Republic?

Bottom line. Most "Christians" ain't. And Orthodox countries have loved killing and torturing Jews for a long time, Hitler was just better at it or more efficient.

Vollnut hang in there. Don't other people, even if it is the majority of Christians especially Orthodox define what Christianity or Orthodoxy is, if we do, then we MUST concede your point.

Stick close to Gospels. Not so much to history.


This is what I did when I was a Protestant. I ignored everything else but the Gospel ideal. I don't think it's a valid approach anymore. If Church history doesn't have a part in defining our Christianity then we're left with the same shallow archeologizing which fuels the continued fractioning of the Protestant churches.

But if Christ is really with us till the end of the age, if the Spirit is really guiding us into all truth- then to me this indicates Christianity should be a force for good. It should make society, not just individuals, objectively better. If this isn't happening, then I have a hard time believing this is the way of God.
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« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2011, 06:22:29 PM »

This thread like all is getting off the OP. It wasn't anti-semetism per se.

Read the subject line.

Does Christianity spread hate?

Yes

Do Christians spread hate?

Yes

You can parse what Christian/ity is to a point where you can deny the above by begging the question or no True Scotsman, but anyone with a bit of sense would say yes.

But for Volnutt and certainly for the rest of us the question is what would Christ have us to be?

As said, Volnutt has come to terms with this for a moment regarding this question.

But any "Christian" who doesn't without qualification answer to the questions put forth by the subject line with yes is in delusion and probably not able to effectively deal with folks who Christianity and Christians have harmed.


Don't blame them. I unduly focused on the Jews because that's what was weighing on my mind yesterday. I can say similar things about Gypsies, indigenous tribes, various heretics...
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Pikhristos Aftonf
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« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2011, 06:57:03 PM »

People do wrong things and then escape reprimand by involving religion. Judaism insists that the jewish nation is superior to all, this is both a political and religious claim, and as such it is racist and religionist. Islam teaches the killing and pillaging of all the non-believer (kafirs) until they pay a tribute tax (jizya). CHristianity teaches us to love our enemies and even those that persecute us.
does this mean that all Jewish people are racists and religionists, all Muslims are genocidal barbarians, or all christians forgiving saints?
No is the simple answer, there are some genocidal jews, some saintly  jews, some racist jews, the sam applies to all the three religions mentioned.
it simply means that although some christians are worse than some of the followers of the other religions, christianity in itself is superior. not because it claims superiority but because logical analysis dictates that it is superior as it teaches peace over violence. the acts of individuals do not reflect the ideology of a religion.

God bless
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orthonorm
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« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2011, 06:57:38 PM »

Does democracy spread hate?

Yes.

Do democrats spread hate?

Yes.

Does totalitarianism spread hate?

Yes.

Do totalitarianism spread hate?

Yes.

Hmmmm.  seems we are out of luck.
This thread like all is getting off the OP. It wasn't anti-semetism per se.

Read the subject line.

Does Christianity spread hate?

Yes

Do Christians spread hate?

Yes

You can parse what Christian/ity is to a point where you can deny the above by begging the question or no True Scotsman, but anyone with a bit of sense would say yes.

But for Volnutt and certainly for the rest of us the question is what would Christ have us to be?

As said, Volnutt has come to terms with this for a moment regarding this question.

But any "Christian" who doesn't without qualification answer to the questions put forth by the subject line with yes is in delusion and probably not able to effectively deal with folks who Christianity and Christians have harmed.



I love posts with no sematic value.

Thanks.
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« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2011, 06:59:20 PM »

This thread like all is getting off the OP. It wasn't anti-semetism per se.

Read the subject line.

Does Christianity spread hate?

Yes

Do Christians spread hate?

Yes

You can parse what Christian/ity is to a point where you can deny the above by begging the question or no True Scotsman, but anyone with a bit of sense would say yes.

But for Volnutt and certainly for the rest of us the question is what would Christ have us to be?

As said, Volnutt has come to terms with this for a moment regarding this question.

But any "Christian" who doesn't without qualification answer to the questions put forth by the subject line with yes is in delusion and probably not able to effectively deal with folks who Christianity and Christians have harmed.


Don't blame them. I unduly focused on the Jews because that's what was weighing on my mind yesterday. I can say similar things about Gypsies, indigenous tribes, various heretics...

I am praying that Christ will come soon.

Is the world getting worse? Or is the news media more adept in reporting negative news?

Either way, we must not lose faith, hope, and love. Christ said that near the end of time, as His Second Coming nears, that the faith of many will grow cold and that hateful wars and family strife would be everywhere, as it is today. However, we know not the hour nor the day of His Second and Glorious Coming. It could be tomorrow, or it could be in another thousand years. Only God knows.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and save us.

I too had a difficult catechumenate. I am praying for you.
Have you prayed the Paraclesis to the Theotokos (the one prayed during the Fast of the Theotokos)?

This prayer has really helped me gain hope. Also ask your priest for help and for his prayers.



« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 07:03:34 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2011, 07:04:45 PM »

This thread like all is getting off the OP. It wasn't anti-semetism per se.

Read the subject line.

Does Christianity spread hate?

Yes

Do Christians spread hate?

Yes

You can parse what Christian/ity is to a point where you can deny the above by begging the question or no True Scotsman, but anyone with a bit of sense would say yes.

But for Volnutt and certainly for the rest of us the question is what would Christ have us to be?

As said, Volnutt has come to terms with this for a moment regarding this question.

But any "Christian" who doesn't without qualification answer to the questions put forth by the subject line with yes is in delusion and probably not able to effectively deal with folks who Christianity and Christians have harmed.


Don't blame them. I unduly focused on the Jews because that's what was weighing on my mind yesterday. I can say similar things about Gypsies, indigenous tribes, various heretics...

I am praying that Christ will come soon.

Is the world getting worse? Or is the news media more adept in reporting negative news?

Either way, we must not lose faith, hope, and love, because Christ said that near the end of time, as His Second Coming nears, that the faith of many will grow cold and that wars and family strife would be everywhere, as it is today. However, we no not the hour nor the day of His Second and Glorious Coming. It could be tomorrow, or it could be in another thousand years. Only God knows.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and save us.

I too had a difficult catechumenate. I am praying for you.
Have you prayed the Paraclesis to the Theotokos (the one prayed during the Fast of the Theotokos)?

This prayer has really helped me gain hope. Also ask your priest for help and his prayers.




I actually don't go to Church right now (I don't want to go into the reasons, sorry). Thank you though. Your advice is good.
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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2011, 08:24:17 PM »

Ethiopia is certainly an exception to the rule. Ethiopia was a Judaic nation before it converted to Christianity, and there is no inherent anti-semitism in Ethiopia.


Selam

I am so glad this triumphalism was corrected quickly in this thread.


"Ethiopia was a Judaic nation before it converted to Christianity." This is not triumphalism, but simply a fact.

"...there is no inherent anti-semitism in Ethiopia." Please note that I never said there is not any anti-semitism in Ethiopia, but that there is no inherent anti-semitism in Ethiopia. Now, this point may be debatable, depending on how one understands the word "inherent". Sister Hiwot and brother HabteSelassie have provided some valuable information on the subject. Personally, I will defer to Hiwot, since she is Ethiopian and has both historical and experiential knowledge of the issue.


Selam
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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2011, 10:32:39 PM »

Please tell me what evils The Church has done. I haven't found a one.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, a significant number of monasteries in Russia - at one time - had serfs.  Some might call this an evil.

The truth of the matter is that the Church has, probably, committed a great number of sins and evils.  The Church is not The Church because it refrains from wrongdoing.  The Church is The Church because it is the Bride of Christ.  If a holy man has a wife who cheats someone, does she cease to be his wife?  If a holy man has a wife who robs the holy man's friends, does she cease to be his wife?  The Bride of Christ has sinned, but she repents.  That is the key.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2011, 10:39:30 PM »

Does democracy spread hate?

Yes.

Do democrats spread hate?

Yes.

Does totalitarianism spread hate?

Yes.

Do totalitarianism spread hate?

Yes.

Hmmmm.  seems we are out of luck.
This thread like all is getting off the OP. It wasn't anti-semetism per se.

Read the subject line.

Does Christianity spread hate?

Yes

Do Christians spread hate?

Yes

You can parse what Christian/ity is to a point where you can deny the above by begging the question or no True Scotsman, but anyone with a bit of sense would say yes.

But for Volnutt and certainly for the rest of us the question is what would Christ have us to be?

As said, Volnutt has come to terms with this for a moment regarding this question.

But any "Christian" who doesn't without qualification answer to the questions put forth by the subject line with yes is in delusion and probably not able to effectively deal with folks who Christianity and Christians have harmed.



I love posts with no sematic value.

Thanks.
OK then, name a human institution which hasn't been (mis)used to spread hate.

Of course, you can try to do without human institutions
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2011, 10:47:13 PM »

Does democracy spread hate?

Yes.

Do democrats spread hate?

Yes.

Does totalitarianism spread hate?

Yes.

Do totalitarianism spread hate?

Yes.

Hmmmm.  seems we are out of luck.
This thread like all is getting off the OP. It wasn't anti-semetism per se.

Read the subject line.

Does Christianity spread hate?

Yes

Do Christians spread hate?

Yes

You can parse what Christian/ity is to a point where you can deny the above by begging the question or no True Scotsman, but anyone with a bit of sense would say yes.

But for Volnutt and certainly for the rest of us the question is what would Christ have us to be?

As said, Volnutt has come to terms with this for a moment regarding this question.

But any "Christian" who doesn't without qualification answer to the questions put forth by the subject line with yes is in delusion and probably not able to effectively deal with folks who Christianity and Christians have harmed.



I love posts with no sematic value.

Thanks.
OK then, name a human institution which hasn't been (mis)used to spread hate.

Of course, you can try to do without human institutions


That wasn't my point, that Christianity somehow cornered that market on hate, but to deny or even offer it up with apology isn't very helpful to those who have been hurt by it or those who are distanced due to it.

Agree. It's true.

And to the measure of which "society" is worse is anti-Christian as it reduces everything to some hedonic calculus.

I'm just saying to Volnutt, you are right and . . .



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« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2011, 11:10:01 PM »

In my own experience it isn't useful to think in terms of large group behavior. Christians did this, Jews did that, Ethiopians did neither.

The Orthodox version of Christianity is extraordinarily powerful in terms of re-shaping you spiritually. Throwing yourself into it will be a full time job. Don't worry about anyone else's faults or errors. It's a distraction.

If someone is hateful they are not being a Christian or at least have stumbled a bit. The Church is a Spiritual Hospital, don't be too shocked when you run across people who need help. It's an opportunity for repentance for them and forgiveness for you. All things can work for the good. 
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« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2011, 11:13:28 PM »

Yes. Luke 14:26.
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« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2011, 01:03:15 AM »

Wow,

Papist and Isa finally agree and both are wrong.

How does this address the question in any meaningful way? Oh THEY are worse!

And was he suggesting a migration to the Early Roman Republic?

Bottom line. Most "Christians" ain't. And Orthodox countries have loved killing and torturing Jews for a long time, Hitler was just better at it or more efficient.

Vollnut hang in there. Don't other people, even if it is the majority of Christians especially Orthodox define what Christianity or Orthodoxy is, if we do, then we MUST concede your point.

Stick close to Gospels. Not so much to history.


This is what I did when I was a Protestant. I ignored everything else but the Gospel ideal. I don't think it's a valid approach anymore. If Church history doesn't have a part in defining our Christianity then we're left with the same shallow archeologizing which fuels the continued fractioning of the Protestant churches.

But if Christ is really with us till the end of the age, if the Spirit is really guiding us into all truth- then to me this indicates Christianity should be a force for good. It should make society, not just individuals, objectively better. If this isn't happening, then I have a hard time believing this is the way of God.

You have to be more specific.  Which part of history are you talking about?  And which churches?  Was there an endorsement?  Was there a patriarchal support of persecutions?  Things like that need to be answered before one can address the issue.  Is it honestly at every single point in time Orthodoxy has always practiced (I use my words carefully, because I understand the whole "follow the gospel" message isn't clicking) anti-Semitism?
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« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2011, 03:18:36 AM »

Russia, Romania, Serbia, Greece, Poland, Ukraine, talk to any Jew from these areas-it's endemic. I really don't think it would be if thses countries weren't Orthodox.

I'm sure similar things apply to Gypsies.
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« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2011, 03:21:27 AM »

Did you know that many people in Greece and even the monks on Mt. Athos were involved in rescuing and saving the Jews during WWII?

Many Jewish musicians play at Greek Orthodox weddings and vice versa.

Have you noticed how Jewish and Greek dances are similar?
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« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2011, 03:33:30 AM »

Did you know that many people in Greece and even the monks on Mt. Athos were involved in rescuing and saving the Jews during WWII?
Yes, thankfully there are good people in these societies. I wish Met. Antony Khrapovitsky was a saint for the same reasons.

But what about your average man on the street? I've heard too many anecdotes to the contrary. Just ask Marc here.
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« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2011, 09:36:18 AM »

Russia, Romania, Serbia, Greece, Poland, Ukraine, talk to any Jew from these areas-it's endemic. I really don't think it would be if thses countries weren't Orthodox.

I'm sure similar things apply to Gypsies.

And this is all present?
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« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2011, 09:38:17 AM »

I'm the first person to bitch and moan about the Greeks, but I've never detected a strain of anti-Semitism amongst them. They are more likely to be vehemently anti-American.

You may be painting with a broader brush than is necessary, my friend.
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« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2011, 09:53:08 AM »

Noah was ante-Semitic.
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« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2011, 10:08:11 AM »

Did you know that many people in Greece and even the monks on Mt. Athos were involved in rescuing and saving the Jews during WWII?
Yes, thankfully there are good people in these societies. I wish Met. Antony Khrapovitsky was a saint for the same reasons.

But what about your average man on the street? I've heard too many anecdotes to the contrary. Just ask Marc here.

But Protestants in the USA also have a history of Antisemitism and they have a totally different Theology in most cases. I have met Socialist-Atheists who were vehemently Anti-Semitic. The reasons run deep and are complicated. And yes, Christianity in it's accusation of Decide ( God Killing) is certainly one of the streams that feeds this.

So what? Here is a Taoist maxim. "The bigger the  Front the Bigger the Back"

In other words, if something  is True the more you will also notice falsity just an inch away from it. In Christian terms, the more you experience Gods' ultimate Truth the more push back you will get from the Evil One.

I have a Reader friend at Church. He discusses with me how when he was an Evangelical he was very bigoted and Anti-Semitic. Now that he is Orthodox he has grown out of it, by in large. It helps him to talk to me about it sometimes.

I would suggest dealing with one person at a time and not try to extrapolate errors further.
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« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2011, 10:45:24 AM »

Did you know that many people in Greece and even the monks on Mt. Athos were involved in rescuing and saving the Jews during WWII?
Yes, thankfully there are good people in these societies. I wish Met. Antony Khrapovitsky was a saint for the same reasons.

But what about your average man on the street? I've heard too many anecdotes to the contrary. Just ask Marc here.

But Protestants in the USA also have a history of Antisemitism and they have a totally different Theology in most cases. I have met Socialist-Atheists who were vehemently Anti-Semitic. The reasons run deep and are complicated. And yes, Christianity in it's accusation of Decide ( God Killing) is certainly one of the streams that feeds this.

So what? Here is a Taoist maxim. "The bigger the  Front the Bigger the Back"

In other words, if something  is True the more you will also notice falsity just an inch away from it. In Christian terms, the more you experience Gods' ultimate Truth the more push back you will get from the Evil One.

I have a Reader friend at Church. He discusses with me how when he was an Evangelical he was very bigoted and Anti-Semitic. Now that he is Orthodox he has grown out of it, by in large. It helps him to talk to me about it sometimes.

I would suggest dealing with one person at a time and not try to extrapolate errors further.


I'd also suggest that if one looks at Church history, one finds that monasticism really grew strong when a small Christian population got fed up with the majority Christian population around them with their hypocrisies.  Honestly, once Christianity becomes a majority and a rule of law in a cultural society, history teaches that it loses the actual Christian essence of true Christian living.

It's not just anti-semitism, it's frankly just a lesson of forgetting who you are.

If you read the Old Testament, this was a story of God's people, but most of the time, God's people were not acting like God's people.  Doesn't mean there's no truth there.  It simply means that the true people forget themselves.

And this goes for other religions as well, although I would argue Islam even as a minority religion had its warrior instincts from the very beginning.

"Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matt. 7:13-14

It's interesting Christ even prophecies right here His own followers will not be perfect, no matter how much He encourages and teaches them.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 10:48:30 AM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2011, 11:54:33 AM »

The topic of Christians and Jews is a difficult one.  There has always been tension between the two groups.  I recall watching a documentary series hosted by Abba Eban that was very informative.  He laid the blame for anti-semitism on both groups.

Part of the problem with being a practicing Jew is that it forbids common interactions with Gentiles.  In fact, Judaism has even pronounced solemn curses against Christians:

"For apostates who have rejected Your Torah let there be no hope, and may the Nazarenes and heretics perish in an instant. Let all the enemies of Your people, the House of Israel, be speedily cut down; and may You swiftly uproot, shatter, destroy, subdue, and humiliate the kingdom of arrogance, speedily in our days! Blessed are You, O Lord, who shatters His enemies and humbles the arrogant."
http://www.answers.com/topic/birkat-ha-minim

Rabbi Ramak (d. 1570) documented that Jews were, as part of their morning prayers, to bless God with, "Blessed art Thou, Lord of the Universe, that Thou hast not made me a Gentile."  The strictest of Jews will not even greet a gentile on the street (side note: I was in the Jewelry District in LA a few years back, and was surprised how many of the Hassidim smiled and nodded to me as an Orthodox clergyman.  I returned their salutes with 'Shalom' and got big grins.  Perhaps it was the beard...).

Eban acknowledged that Judaism made dealings with Gentiles extremely complicated, and often reliant on non-practicing Jews as intermediaries.  The problem is that non-practicing Jews are going to tell Gentiles what Jews really think of them, and then you are off to the races (literally and figuratively).

Royal houses in Europe also used Jews for their own purposes, since Jews needed protection from the authorities as a minority group, and so feudal lords found ways letting Jews handle the less popular tasks of banking and tax collection.  Jews could easily be blamed and expelled if the lord's policies upset the locals too much.  This also fed the culture of anti-semitism.

In the previous century, however, when Judaism has been attacked (either by Hitler or Stalin), so has the Orthodox Church.  Many Orthodox bishops and clergy opposed Hitler's plots in the Third Reich, and paid dearly.  Stalin's paranoia against the Jews was concurrent with his oppression of the Church.

All that being said, Church leadership was not always properly responsive to anti-semitism.  For example, the Russian Orthodox Church proclaimed official opposition to the 1905 pogrom, but at other times were silent.

It is all very sad.  However, I do not think that you will find in this era any type of anti-semitic policy.  While there are still very hard feelings amongst Middle Eastern Christians regarding Israeli treatment of Palestinian Christians, there is still no talk of eradicating Jews as a people.
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« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2011, 12:01:21 PM »

Did you know that many people in Greece and even the monks on Mt. Athos were involved in rescuing and saving the Jews during WWII?

Many Jewish musicians play at Greek Orthodox weddings and vice versa.

Have you noticed how Jewish and Greek dances are similar?

That's true, I like them both.  Smiley
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« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2011, 09:30:21 PM »

I'm the first person to bitch and moan about the Greeks, but I've never detected a strain of anti-Semitism amongst them. They are more likely to be vehemently anti-American.

You may be painting with a broader brush than is necessary, my friend.
Sorry, I shouldn't have extrapolated like that.
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« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2011, 09:35:16 PM »

Did you know that many people in Greece and even the monks on Mt. Athos were involved in rescuing and saving the Jews during WWII?
Yes, thankfully there are good people in these societies. I wish Met. Antony Khrapovitsky was a saint for the same reasons.

But what about your average man on the street? I've heard too many anecdotes to the contrary. Just ask Marc here.

But Protestants in the USA also have a history of Antisemitism and they have a totally different Theology in most cases. I have met Socialist-Atheists who were vehemently Anti-Semitic. The reasons run deep and are complicated. And yes, Christianity in it's accusation of Decide ( God Killing) is certainly one of the streams that feeds this.

So what? Here is a Taoist maxim. "The bigger the  Front the Bigger the Back"

In other words, if something  is True the more you will also notice falsity just an inch away from it. In Christian terms, the more you experience Gods' ultimate Truth the more push back you will get from the Evil One.

I have a Reader friend at Church. He discusses with me how when he was an Evangelical he was very bigoted and Anti-Semitic. Now that he is Orthodox he has grown out of it, by in large. It helps him to talk to me about it sometimes.

I would suggest dealing with one person at a time and not try to extrapolate errors further.

Yeah, that's probably what I need to do. I'm not sure how though.
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« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2011, 09:39:10 PM »

You make good points, Minas and Father Giryus.

Maybe I should just start a journal for Chcken Little rants like this instead of a thread where people can actually make reasonable points to me, heh...
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« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2011, 09:39:50 PM »

The topic of Christians and Jews is a difficult one.  There has always been tension between the two groups.  I recall watching a documentary series hosted by Abba Eban that was very informative.  He laid the blame for anti-semitism on both groups.

Part of the problem with being a practicing Jew is that it forbids common interactions with Gentiles.  In fact, Judaism has even pronounced solemn curses against Christians:

"For apostates who have rejected Your Torah let there be no hope, and may the Nazarenes and heretics perish in an instant. Let all the enemies of Your people, the House of Israel, be speedily cut down; and may You swiftly uproot, shatter, destroy, subdue, and humiliate the kingdom of arrogance, speedily in our days! Blessed are You, O Lord, who shatters His enemies and humbles the arrogant."
http://www.answers.com/topic/birkat-ha-minim

Rabbi Ramak (d. 1570) documented that Jews were, as part of their morning prayers, to bless God with, "Blessed art Thou, Lord of the Universe, that Thou hast not made me a Gentile."  The strictest of Jews will not even greet a gentile on the street (side note: I was in the Jewelry District in LA a few years back, and was surprised how many of the Hassidim smiled and nodded to me as an Orthodox clergyman.  I returned their salutes with 'Shalom' and got big grins.  Perhaps it was the beard...).

Eban acknowledged that Judaism made dealings with Gentiles extremely complicated, and often reliant on non-practicing Jews as intermediaries.  The problem is that non-practicing Jews are going to tell Gentiles what Jews really think of them, and then you are off to the races (literally and figuratively).

Royal houses in Europe also used Jews for their own purposes, since Jews needed protection from the authorities as a minority group, and so feudal lords found ways letting Jews handle the less popular tasks of banking and tax collection.  Jews could easily be blamed and expelled if the lord's policies upset the locals too much.  This also fed the culture of anti-semitism.

In the previous century, however, when Judaism has been attacked (either by Hitler or Stalin), so has the Orthodox Church.  Many Orthodox bishops and clergy opposed Hitler's plots in the Third Reich, and paid dearly.  Stalin's paranoia against the Jews was concurrent with his oppression of the Church.

All that being said, Church leadership was not always properly responsive to anti-semitism.  For example, the Russian Orthodox Church proclaimed official opposition to the 1905 pogrom, but at other times were silent.

It is all very sad.  However, I do not think that you will find in this era any type of anti-semitic policy.  While there are still very hard feelings amongst Middle Eastern Christians regarding Israeli treatment of Palestinian Christians, there is still no talk of eradicating Jews as a people.


It may make sense since the Sumerians talked about a very close-knit exclusive group of nomads they called "Habiru", which might be where the word "Hebrew" comes from.
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« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2011, 10:08:43 PM »

The Old Testament does make it fairly clear that the Gentiles are full of vile practices, but at the same time there is anotion that one day the Gentiles will repent and worship God.  We see how St. Paul and St. Peter and the rest of the Apostles struggled with this duality of isolation and openness.  Christians to this day are still trying to work through how to be 'in the world but not of the world.'

So, we are just about as hated as Jews.  Of course, we have a ways to go to catch up to the Jewish experience of anti-semitism, but we are definitely on the same track.


It may make sense since the Sumerians talked about a very close-knit exclusive group of nomads they called "Habiru", which might be where the word "Hebrew" comes from.
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« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2011, 10:28:13 PM »

The Old Testament does make it fairly clear that the Gentiles are full of vile practices, but at the same time there is anotion that one day the Gentiles will repent and worship God.  We see how St. Paul and St. Peter and the rest of the Apostles struggled with this duality of isolation and openness.  Christians to this day are still trying to work through how to be 'in the world but not of the world.'

So, we are just about as hated as Jews.  Of course, we have a ways to go to catch up to the Jewish experience of anti-semitism, but we are definitely on the same track.


It may make sense since the Sumerians talked about a very close-knit exclusive group of nomads they called "Habiru", which might be where the word "Hebrew" comes from.

Under Islamic governments in Egypt, the Coptic and Jewish minority seemed to enjoy mutual sympathy with their dhimmitude status, that is until the WWII era.
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« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2011, 12:19:23 AM »

I'm the first person to bitch and moan about the Greeks, but I've never detected a strain of anti-Semitism amongst them. They are more likely to be vehemently anti-American.

You may be painting with a broader brush than is necessary, my friend.
Sorry, I shouldn't have extrapolated like that.

I don't take the least bit of offence. Like I said, I would be the first to bitch and moan.

I just have to be fair on my tribe sometimes (also, I thought you might benefit from my caution to you).
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« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2011, 12:26:47 AM »

I'm the first person to bitch and moan about the Greeks, but I've never detected a strain of anti-Semitism amongst them. They are more likely to be vehemently anti-American.

You may be painting with a broader brush than is necessary, my friend.
Sorry, I shouldn't have extrapolated like that.

I don't take the least bit of offence. Like I said, I would be the first to bitch and moan.

I just have to be fair on my tribe sometimes (also, I thought you might benefit from my caution to you).
Thanks I do.
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« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2011, 01:13:40 AM »

Did you know that many people in Greece and even the monks on Mt. Athos were involved in rescuing and saving the Jews during WWII?

Many Jewish musicians play at Greek Orthodox weddings and vice versa.

In regard to  latter statement, Jewish musicians certainly performed at my brother's wedding.

In regard to the former statement, the pro-Jewish stance of the Church of Greece and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America during WWII seems unambiguous:

Quotes from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/greece/greece.pdf):

"In contrast to many Catholic and Protestant religious leaders in Europe, who either supported the Nazi policy of extermination of the Jews, or did nothing to stop it, Archbishop Damaskenos of Greece formally protested the deportation of the Jews."

"After learning of the deportation of the Thessaloniki Jews in March 1943, Damaskenos sent a letter of protest to the Germans. This letter was composed by the famous Greek poet, Angelos Sikilianos, and was signed by many members of the Athens intelligentsia. Damaskenos included this passage from the Bible,  There is neither Greek nor Jew," emphasizing that, in the Greek Orthodox religion, all people are the same."

"When General Stroop, high SS and police leader for Greece, found out who was behind the letter, he threatened to shoot Damaskenos. The archbishop bravely reminded the German that, "According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!"

"Damaskenos called Police Chief Evert of Athens to his office and said, "I have spoken to God and my conscience tells me what we must do. The church will issue false baptismal certificates to any Jew who asks for them and you will issue false identification cards." Due to the courageous stance of Archbishop Damaskenos, thousands of Greek Jews were spared."

"The Germans chose March 25, 1944, Greek Independence Day, to deport the Jews of Volos, and any Jews remaining on the Greek mainland. Due to the valiant efforts of Rabbi Pessah, Archbishop Ioakim (honored at Yad Vashem as "Righteous Among Nations"), and the EAM, 74 percent of Volos’ Jews were saved. Of more than 1,000 Jews living in the city in March 1944, only 130 were deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau."

"The Jews of Zakynthos share a similar history with the Jews of the Ionian islands, except that all 275 Jews of Zakynthos survived the Holocaust. The courageous actions of Bishop Chrysostomo and Mayor Loukas Carrer in helping those individuals led Yad Vashem to include them in the "Righteous Among the Nations." In 1944 Mayor Carrer was ordered at gunpoint to hand over a list of Jews residing on the island. The list was presented to the Germans by Bishop Chrysostomos containing only two names: Mayor Carrer and Bishop Chrysostomos. The bishop bravely told the Germans, "Here are your Jews. If you choose to deport the Jews of Zakynthos, you must also take me and I will share their fate."

The meaning of all of this is that the hierarchy of the Church of Greece was willing to sacrifice their lives for the lives of the Jews.

It is unfortunate that is is more difficult to document the North and South American Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in this regard due to the trickiness of finding the correct terms for microfilm documentation, but Archbishop and future Patriarch Athenagoras was a proponent for Jewish causes. For example: NY Times, Aug 30, 1944 pg15: "ASK GOVERNMENT TO SUCCOR JEWS" "Rabbis and Greek Churchmen Make Plea to Congress, British Embassy and White House".

The emphasis being that the Orthodox Church that I know and grew up in was not antisemitic.











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« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2011, 01:20:04 AM »

Thanks, Opus. That's good to know.
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« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2011, 10:03:56 AM »

Is Hinduism inherently hateful towards Islam?  Is Taoism inherently hateful towards Buddhism?  Is Islam inherently hateful towards Christians?  Is Lutheranism inherently hateful towards Catholics?  We could go on and on and on, but we must remember that it is people who practice these religions and people do stupid things.  I think you will find in every religion on earth some practitioner who is hateful towards a practitioner of another  religion.  That is just the price we pay for the fall and for our own mortality.
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« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2011, 02:15:53 PM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.
People often break down and persecute heretics, even in Christian societies.
Sure, but to the this extent, both persecution and general hatred?
Why are there no Cathari, Bogomils, or Paulicians hanging around today, Volnutt? Why does the Nestorian Church have such a small membership compared to 700 years ago?
I'm not saying Christians never killed anybody but Jews. I'm saying the Jews always get the rump end of it in a society where Christianity has taken route, even when other undesirables are tolerated, it seems.

And the same is true for Christians living in Jewish societies be it the Himyarite Kingdom of Arabia, the Khazar khanate, or the modern state of Israel. When you look only at anti-semitism as some golden criterion, things degenerate into very warped understandings. Instead, look at the broader picture. There have been no perfectly Christian societies just as there have been no perfectly Christian people. Even the saints admit that they are the worst of sinners. Instead of judging societies or the Church, why not examine yourself. That's what we're called to do, after all. If we leave Christianity because of some fault we perceive in it, I would argue we were never Christian to begin with, because we never got off our soapbox high horse and humbled ourselves enough to receive the gift of God.
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« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2011, 02:38:40 PM »

Quote
"According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!"

Nice one, Archbishop.
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« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2011, 04:46:44 PM »

Quote
"According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!"

Nice one, Archbishop.

*Ahem*

Hanged.
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« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2011, 05:09:43 PM »

Quote
"According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!"

Nice one, Archbishop.

*Ahem*

Hanged.

Waiting for someone to fall into that.

The hanged / hung distinction is fluid and ever changing.  More and more in print and speech people are using hung.

I still say hanged.

But like hung out with my best- for real- brahs at the bar last night. It was like literally epic.
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« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2011, 05:27:02 PM »

Did you know that many people in Greece and even the monks on Mt. Athos were involved in rescuing and saving the Jews during WWII?

Many Jewish musicians play at Greek Orthodox weddings and vice versa.

In regard to  latter statement, Jewish musicians certainly performed at my brother's wedding.

In regard to the former statement, the pro-Jewish stance of the Church of Greece and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America during WWII seems unambiguous:

Quotes from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/greece/greece.pdf):

"In contrast to many Catholic and Protestant religious leaders in Europe, who either supported the Nazi policy of extermination of the Jews, or did nothing to stop it, Archbishop Damaskenos of Greece formally protested the deportation of the Jews."

"After learning of the deportation of the Thessaloniki Jews in March 1943, Damaskenos sent a letter of protest to the Germans. This letter was composed by the famous Greek poet, Angelos Sikilianos, and was signed by many members of the Athens intelligentsia. Damaskenos included this passage from the Bible,  There is neither Greek nor Jew," emphasizing that, in the Greek Orthodox religion, all people are the same."

"When General Stroop, high SS and police leader for Greece, found out who was behind the letter, he threatened to shoot Damaskenos. The archbishop bravely reminded the German that, "According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!"

"Damaskenos called Police Chief Evert of Athens to his office and said, "I have spoken to God and my conscience tells me what we must do. The church will issue false baptismal certificates to any Jew who asks for them and you will issue false identification cards." Due to the courageous stance of Archbishop Damaskenos, thousands of Greek Jews were spared."

"The Germans chose March 25, 1944, Greek Independence Day, to deport the Jews of Volos, and any Jews remaining on the Greek mainland. Due to the valiant efforts of Rabbi Pessah, Archbishop Ioakim (honored at Yad Vashem as "Righteous Among Nations"), and the EAM, 74 percent of Volos’ Jews were saved. Of more than 1,000 Jews living in the city in March 1944, only 130 were deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau."

"The Jews of Zakynthos share a similar history with the Jews of the Ionian islands, except that all 275 Jews of Zakynthos survived the Holocaust. The courageous actions of Bishop Chrysostomo and Mayor Loukas Carrer in helping those individuals led Yad Vashem to include them in the "Righteous Among the Nations." In 1944 Mayor Carrer was ordered at gunpoint to hand over a list of Jews residing on the island. The list was presented to the Germans by Bishop Chrysostomos containing only two names: Mayor Carrer and Bishop Chrysostomos. The bishop bravely told the Germans, "Here are your Jews. If you choose to deport the Jews of Zakynthos, you must also take me and I will share their fate."

The meaning of all of this is that the hierarchy of the Church of Greece was willing to sacrifice their lives for the lives of the Jews.

It is unfortunate that is is more difficult to document the North and South American Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in this regard due to the trickiness of finding the correct terms for microfilm documentation, but Archbishop and future Patriarch Athenagoras was a proponent for Jewish causes. For example: NY Times, Aug 30, 1944 pg15: "ASK GOVERNMENT TO SUCCOR JEWS" "Rabbis and Greek Churchmen Make Plea to Congress, British Embassy and White House".

The emphasis being that the Orthodox Church that I know and grew up in was not antisemitic.

I also found this:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/greekbishop.html

Quote
VIRTUE AND COURAGE

The Greek Orthodox Church and the Academic World of the Greek People Protest against the Persecution

The letter that was sent by Archbishop Damaskinos to Prime Minister K. Logothetopoulos is a monument of courage, national dignity and respect for human ideals.

This historical document, unique in the annals of occupied Europe, was signed by representatives of the major cultural institutions and organizations on behalf of the Greek people. It required “virtue and courage” to sign such a document in those dark times.

And a wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Damaskinos_of_Athens

This is such a unique story of a Metropolitan who also held political power to gain the peace and righteousness of Greek people.  How come this man isn't canonized a saint yet?
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« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2011, 05:34:15 PM »

Quote
"According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!"

Nice one, Archbishop.

*Ahem*

Hanged.

Waiting for someone to fall into that.

The hanged / hung distinction is fluid and ever changing.  More and more in print and speech people are using hung.

I still say hanged.

But like hung out with my best- for real- brahs at the bar last night. It was like literally epic.

No, it isn't fluid and ever-changing. When speaking of (especially official) executions, it's "hanged."
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« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2011, 06:10:58 PM »

Quote
"According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!"

Nice one, Archbishop.

*Ahem*

Hanged.

Waiting for someone to fall into that.

The hanged / hung distinction is fluid and ever changing.  More and more in print and speech people are using hung.

I still say hanged.

But like hung out with my best- for real- brahs at the bar last night. It was like literally epic.

No, it isn't fluid and ever-changing. When speaking of (especially official) executions, it's "hanged."

Wanna bet?

I'll put $1000 that in "legitimate" print media hung has grown in acceptance over the last 30 years. Certainly in spoken language. In fact, hanged in spoken American English is the rare case.

You might want to google around, if you don't keep abreast of updated trends in data mined frequency of use of words in the English language by register, age, sex, etc.

Data mining > Your Grammar Book.
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« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2011, 06:16:27 PM »

Waiting for someone to fall into that.

Wanna bet?

I'll put $1000...

You really were waiting, weren't you?
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« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2011, 06:24:09 PM »

Waiting for someone to fall into that.

Wanna bet?

I'll put $1000...

You really were waiting, weren't you?

I got bills to pay!
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