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Author Topic: Does Christianity inherently spread hate? Help me stop my possible apostasy.  (Read 5174 times) Average Rating: 0
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #135 on: September 28, 2011, 02:12:07 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In my own experience it isn't useful to think in terms of large group behavior. Christians did this, Jews did that, Ethiopians did neither.

The Orthodox version of Christianity is extraordinarily powerful in terms of re-shaping you spiritually. Throwing yourself into it will be a full time job. Don't worry about anyone else's faults or errors. It's a distraction.

If someone is hateful they are not being a Christian or at least have stumbled a bit. The Church is a Spiritual Hospital, don't be too shocked when you run across people who need help. It's an opportunity for repentance for them and forgiveness for you. All things can work for the good.  
Amen Amen.  

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Honestly, once Christianity becomes a majority and a rule of law in a cultural society, history teaches that it loses the actual Christian essence of true Christian living.

I would argue against this, as it invalidates the Orthodox of less active Christians.  We have had these kinds of discussions before, regarding how "Orthodox" people should live, and which jurisdictions, or regions, or countries, or peoples are "less Orthodox" than others and honestly, this is nonsense! If folks practice the Seven Divine Mysteries in a consecrated, recognized, and legitimate Church then they are Orthodox, regardless of their degree of participation.  As the above quote mentioned, "the Church is a spiritual hospital" and some folks are practically cured and some folks are on life-support in the Apostolic ICU, however we are ALL Orthodox, whether priests or laymen, active choir members or the folks who wander in a few sporadic Sundays a year, board members or politically indifferent members, adults and children alike and everyone in between.  We are ALL Orthodox, regardless of the degree of our participation, or how Orthodox we appear to be outwardly.  The Church functions within the world, within human societies, and is a human institution blessed by Grace, and as such, is analogous to humanity in general, flaws and all.  The Mysteries are perfect, the people are not.  So we can not speculate on "losing Christian essence" or even try to define "true Christian living" because there is no such thing Wink  (See Luke 18:9-14)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 02:18:28 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #136 on: September 28, 2011, 04:03:01 PM »

There are different types of Christians. In the past they would challenge atheism but as a worthy opponent. Today, there is a different type. They mock atheism and laugh it off as irrational.

The third type are social activists who deny atheism but serve the poor and oppressed.

That is not factually accurate. The Christian Church was far more dominant in society than any small niche of Atheists. The Church did no "Challenging"..They were shot at from below until the Russian Revolution when Atheism had State Power backing it..

 I can think of no time that Atheism was ever accused of being "irrational" by the Church.

Rationalism is the tool of Atheists not the Church. The Church preaches Faith. It's appeals to reason are secondary.

So basically you just made all that up to be snarky.. Nice job.

I made it up to try to show you the faults in your own post. Didn't seem to work.

I get it. Sorry that I was snarky back at you.

All issues dont have an equal sign between them. "This" is not always like "that". Giving matters a realistic weight is important.
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« Reply #137 on: September 28, 2011, 04:04:50 PM »

I know our newest poster here is a bit abrasive and difficult, especially with the one-line comments in some of the threads. Nonetheless, I have to be honest, it's when I see Christians try to argue against atheism in threads like this that I am most sympathetic to atheism. I've said many times that I didn't first leave the Church because of guys like Dawkins and Hitchens and Harris (who I had never even read at that point, and still pretty much have barely read), but rather because of Paul and St. John Chrysostom and so forth. Same thing here... I don't sympathise with atheism because the arguments of Čika-Gliša are so good, but rather because the arguments of Christians are so bad. It's sort of like scanning a post of Christian objections to atheism or unbelief, and I'm thinking: "No, don't agree with that; nah, not quite right; I think that's a misunderstanding; that's probably not correct either; etc." and I'm left with the growing question... well, what do I do then? 

Make a list of the terrible arguments and lets see what you mean. Feel free to summarize.
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« Reply #138 on: September 29, 2011, 06:58:40 PM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.

I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.
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« Reply #139 on: September 30, 2011, 01:26:23 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.

I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.

They, and the Quakers (with whom I identified a number of years before going High-Church wannabe) don't count, as they are new and small in numbers.  Where prototypes of them may have existed in the past, they were persecuted probably to extinction by the State-supported Church, if they didn't die beforehand (more hopefully) under the persuasive arguments of theologians and parish priests. Undecided
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #140 on: September 30, 2011, 03:35:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.

Well, maybe all those Cathars, Waldensians, Donatists, and Arnoldists (the first European anabaptist movements) were too busy assassinating Catholic government officials and priests while burning and looting Churches to pay any attention to the Jews Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #141 on: September 30, 2011, 05:57:20 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.

Well, maybe all those Cathars, Waldensians, Donatists, and Arnoldists (the first European anabaptist movements) were too busy assassinating Catholic government officials and priests while burning and looting Churches to pay any attention to the Jews Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
That's not quite fair. Although there may have been ideological influence as with the Cathars on the Waldensians, none of these movements are materially related.
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2011, 07:06:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.

Well, maybe all those Cathars, Waldensians, Donatists, and Arnoldists (the first European anabaptist movements) were too busy assassinating Catholic government officials and priests while burning and looting Churches to pay any attention to the Jews Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
That's not quite fair. Although there may have been ideological influence as with the Cathars on the Waldensians, none of these movements are materially related.

Okay, cool, I'll start my own church and it will have all the same doctrines as the Orthodox Church and, by virtue of its very been-around-for-five-minutes-ness and lack of temporal power, it will have never persecuted or harmed anyone. Indeed, I expect my new church will quickly acquire the holy glow of persecution itself.

What defines the Orthodox Church is it's doctrine. Our saints are saints because of their doctrine, our fathers are our fathers because of their doctrine and our bishops stand in succession from the apostles because of their doctrine.

Join some obscure sect of Buddhism that has been persecuted by all the others if you want to find a sinless institution to sign up to. Personally, I prefer the Truth.

By the way, I haven't forgotten to pm you!
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« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2011, 08:34:57 PM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.

I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.
The last time the Anabaptists were in power, the persecuted not only Jews, but every non-Anabaptist for that matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_rebellion
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« Reply #144 on: September 30, 2011, 08:38:07 PM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.

I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.
The last time the Anabaptists were in power, the persecuted not only Jews, but every non-Anabaptist for that matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_rebellion
I didn't mention that because those were rather heterodox by anabaptist standards. They weren't pacifists, they practiced polygamy, and they had a lot of Judaizing doctrines.

It'd be like using the Abecedarians as the model of all anabaptism.
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« Reply #145 on: September 30, 2011, 08:43:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.

Well, maybe all those Cathars, Waldensians, Donatists, and Arnoldists (the first European anabaptist movements) were too busy assassinating Catholic government officials and priests while burning and looting Churches to pay any attention to the Jews Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
That's not quite fair. Although there may have been ideological influence as with the Cathars on the Waldensians, none of these movements are materially related.

Okay, cool, I'll start my own church and it will have all the same doctrines as the Orthodox Church and, by virtue of its very been-around-for-five-minutes-ness and lack of temporal power, it will have never persecuted or harmed anyone. Indeed, I expect my new church will quickly acquire the holy glow of persecution itself.

What defines the Orthodox Church is it's doctrine. Our saints are saints because of their doctrine, our fathers are our fathers because of their doctrine and our bishops stand in succession from the apostles because of their doctrine.

Join some obscure sect of Buddhism that has been persecuted by all the others if you want to find a sinless institution to sign up to. Personally, I prefer the Truth.

By the way, I haven't forgotten to pm you!
So all Communists are murderers just because Stalin was?
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« Reply #146 on: September 30, 2011, 09:35:29 PM »

Join some obscure sect of Buddhism that has been persecuted by all the others if you want to find a sinless institution to sign up to. Personally, I prefer the Truth.

That's sigline quality, that is.
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« Reply #147 on: October 01, 2011, 02:11:01 AM »

I don't know of any obscure sect of Buddhism that has been persecuted by all the others.
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« Reply #148 on: October 01, 2011, 03:22:53 AM »

I don't know of any obscure sect of Buddhism that has been persecuted by all the others.

Do you really think Theravada and Mahayana and all the rest are gong to let you find out about the Buddhist group who they have persecuted for their true belief? If you are willing to make a pilgrimage to Sri Lanka I will tell you where you must go and what you must do to find the group of which I speak. But Beware! Once you are initiated there is no turning back.
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« Reply #149 on: October 01, 2011, 03:49:33 AM »

I don't know of any obscure sect of Buddhism that has been persecuted by all the others.

Methinks it was hyperbole.  Sweet sweet hyperbole.
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« Reply #150 on: October 01, 2011, 04:02:37 AM »

I don't know of any obscure sect of Buddhism that has been persecuted by all the others.

Methinks it was hyperbole.  Sweet sweet hyperbole.
I love me some hyperbole.
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« Reply #151 on: October 01, 2011, 02:41:11 PM »

Name a Communist sect that eschews all violence.

So all Communists are murderers just because Stalin was?
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« Reply #152 on: October 01, 2011, 03:14:16 PM »

Join some obscure sect of Buddhism that has been persecuted by all the others if you want to find a sinless institution to sign up to. Personally, I prefer the Truth.

That's sigline quality, that is.

I hate to pile on when the mood is good, but indeed. That is pure internetz.

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« Reply #153 on: October 01, 2011, 07:02:40 PM »

Name a Communist sect that eschews all violence.

So all Communists are murderers just because Stalin was?
I don't think the CPUSA nor the various people identifying as Christian Communists (which includes some Orthodox) are planning on planting any car bombs.
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« Reply #154 on: October 02, 2011, 12:01:09 AM »

That's not what I asked.  I asked about their official stand(s) on the use of violence.

Name a Communist sect that eschews all violence.

So all Communists are murderers just because Stalin was?
I don't think the CPUSA nor the various people identifying as Christian Communists (which includes some Orthodox) are planning on planting any car bombs.
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« Reply #155 on: October 02, 2011, 12:12:14 AM »

That's not what I asked.  I asked about their official stand(s) on the use of violence.

Name a Communist sect that eschews all violence.

So all Communists are murderers just because Stalin was?
I don't think the CPUSA nor the various people identifying as Christian Communists (which includes some Orthodox) are planning on planting any car bombs.
http://www.cpusa.org/faq/

Quote
Communists believe that social change can only be accomplished through the united action of mass movements which express the majority will of the people. Peaceful methods of change are not only the right thing to do, they are the most effective way to unite and mobilize the greatest majorities.

Violence, on the other hand, is a tool of the big corporations and the governments they control. To preserve their power, they use violence against workers' and people's movements.

In contrast, Communists seek to change society peacefully. We work to expand every democratic and electoral avenue as part of our fight for working class political and economic power.

Our party believes that it is possible to make fundamental transformations using the electoral process, the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights.
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« Reply #156 on: October 02, 2011, 01:10:49 AM »

I know our newest poster here is a bit abrasive and difficult, especially with the one-line comments in some of the threads. Nonetheless, I have to be honest, it's when I see Christians try to argue against atheism in threads like this that I am most sympathetic to atheism. I've said many times that I didn't first leave the Church because of guys like Dawkins and Hitchens and Harris (who I had never even read at that point, and still pretty much have barely read), but rather because of Paul and St. John Chrysostom and so forth. Same thing here... I don't sympathise with atheism because the arguments of Čika-Gliša are so good, but rather because the arguments of Christians are so bad. It's sort of like scanning a post of Christian objections to atheism or unbelief, and I'm thinking: "No, don't agree with that; nah, not quite right; I think that's a misunderstanding; that's probably not correct either; etc." and I'm left with the growing question... well, what do I do then? 

So what you're saying is... you feel that the saints and the Church Fathers were very primitive, or backwards?  Because they had a different understanding than we do, and everyone knows how we're supposedly so "advanced" in our high-tech world.  If you are saying this, then I can sort of understand where you're coming from..

There were questionable statements by most saints.. like where St. Paul said a woman should be silent in a church, and if she has a question.. she should only ask her husband and no one else. I still have trouble with some of the aspects of the Church's teachings when it comes to every day morality issues...

But I don't typically question the faith itself.  To me it's just an inner knowing, the beauty.. the icons.. the eucharist.  When I pray, especially the Jesus prayer -- I am filled with a peace.. that seems to make everything better.  I know some will say I use the Church and Jesus as an emotional blanket, and that may very well be true.  But I don't try to run away from life's problems, just because they're hard.. so it wouldn't be that much of a blanket.

Every time I see the icon of St. Mary of Egypt, I am reminded of her story -- and I feel that she's "been there, done that." and understands a lot of the spiritual and carnal struggles I go through.  So EVEN there, there's just an "inner knowing".. that goes beyond this Western scholastic.. "everything must make sense to me before I can accept it."   Because Orthodoxy has a lot of mysteries, and the Holy Trinity is the greatest mystery of all!  If you can tell me how Jesus is both God and man simultaneously.. without confusion, then I congratulate you and bow to you.  Because the Incarnation is equally as mysterious!
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« Reply #157 on: October 02, 2011, 05:53:30 PM »

I read through the entire FAQ, and it does not renounce violence.  It states that they do not believe it is necessary to effect the changes they are presently seeking.  They basically say just enough to maintain the idea that they support the Constitution, but their premise is that Constitutional rights such as private property should be regulated by the State.The FAQ has less to do with governance than electoral strategy.

Thanks for making my point: Communism relies on violence because all states rely on violence.  No government can exist without violence as a means of preserving order or defending national interests (i.e. 'the workers' in Socialist parliance).

Communism, from its inception, has involved violence, and there has never been a non-violent expression of Communism because collectivization requires mandatory 100% compliance.  Such compliance requires force, because humans simply are not that docile.


That's not what I asked.  I asked about their official stand(s) on the use of violence.

Name a Communist sect that eschews all violence.

So all Communists are murderers just because Stalin was?
I don't think the CPUSA nor the various people identifying as Christian Communists (which includes some Orthodox) are planning on planting any car bombs.
http://www.cpusa.org/faq/

Quote
Communists believe that social change can only be accomplished through the united action of mass movements which express the majority will of the people. Peaceful methods of change are not only the right thing to do, they are the most effective way to unite and mobilize the greatest majorities.

Violence, on the other hand, is a tool of the big corporations and the governments they control. To preserve their power, they use violence against workers' and people's movements.

In contrast, Communists seek to change society peacefully. We work to expand every democratic and electoral avenue as part of our fight for working class political and economic power.

Our party believes that it is possible to make fundamental transformations using the electoral process, the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights.
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« Reply #158 on: October 02, 2011, 08:30:59 PM »

I see a renunciation.
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Peaceful methods of change are not only the right thing to do, they are the most effective way to unite and mobilize the greatest majorities.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 08:33:16 PM by Volnutt » Logged

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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #159 on: October 03, 2011, 03:38:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.

Well, maybe all those Cathars, Waldensians, Donatists, and Arnoldists (the first European anabaptist movements) were too busy assassinating Catholic government officials and priests while burning and looting Churches to pay any attention to the Jews Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
That's not quite fair. Although there may have been ideological influence as with the Cathars on the Waldensians, none of these movements are materially related.

What unites all of those movements was (A) they were proto-Protestant and (B) the resulted to violence and even assassination as a politico-religious strategy

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Papist
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« Reply #160 on: October 03, 2011, 04:37:57 PM »

I know our newest poster here is a bit abrasive and difficult, especially with the one-line comments in some of the threads. Nonetheless, I have to be honest, it's when I see Christians try to argue against atheism in threads like this that I am most sympathetic to atheism. I've said many times that I didn't first leave the Church because of guys like Dawkins and Hitchens and Harris (who I had never even read at that point, and still pretty much have barely read), but rather because of Paul and St. John Chrysostom and so forth. Same thing here... I don't sympathise with atheism because the arguments of Čika-Gliša are so good, but rather because the arguments of Christians are so bad. It's sort of like scanning a post of Christian objections to atheism or unbelief, and I'm thinking: "No, don't agree with that; nah, not quite right; I think that's a misunderstanding; that's probably not correct either; etc." and I'm left with the growing question... well, what do I do then? 
Interesting. I find that the arguments that atheists make are embarrassingly sophomoric.
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #161 on: October 03, 2011, 05:03:09 PM »

That's not what I asked.  I asked about their official stand(s) on the use of violence.

Name a Communist sect that eschews all violence.

So all Communists are murderers just because Stalin was?
I don't think the CPUSA nor the various people identifying as Christian Communists (which includes some Orthodox) are planning on planting any car bombs.
http://www.cpusa.org/faq/

Quote
Communists believe that social change can only be accomplished through the united action of mass movements which express the majority will of the people. Peaceful methods of change are not only the right thing to do, they are the most effective way to unite and mobilize the greatest majorities.

Violence, on the other hand, is a tool of the big corporations and the governments they control. To preserve their power, they use violence against workers' and people's movements.

In contrast, Communists seek to change society peacefully. We work to expand every democratic and electoral avenue as part of our fight for working class political and economic power.

Our party believes that it is possible to make fundamental transformations using the electoral process, the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights.

This is such a crock and anybody who believes in it is also full of it.

ADDED: A big OOPS and please forgive me for my intemperate language. For the time for me to read the exchange and respond to it, I had thought that I was in Politics. So, let me rephrase: I would not believe anything that CPSU says as this organization has forfeited the right to be believed; for decades they have lied to the American people.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 05:29:03 PM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #162 on: October 03, 2011, 05:42:35 PM »

There is no perfection on the earth. All groups are made up of sinful people who have passions and don't live up to their ideals. But the Orthodox Church has Christ, who alone is sinless. So, despite all the horrible people who have been members of the Church together with all the wonderful and mediocre people, I would take the Orthodox Church over anything else, because it has Christ. I came to Orthodoxy because of Him.
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« Reply #163 on: October 03, 2011, 06:08:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm still trying to figure out where the anabaptists have done these things.

Well, maybe all those Cathars, Waldensians, Donatists, and Arnoldists (the first European anabaptist movements) were too busy assassinating Catholic government officials and priests while burning and looting Churches to pay any attention to the Jews Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
That's not quite fair. Although there may have been ideological influence as with the Cathars on the Waldensians, none of these movements are materially related.

What unites all of those movements was (A) they were proto-Protestant and (B) the resulted to violence and even assassination as a politico-religious strategy

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Hmm, I don't know anything about the Arnoldists but you'll have to show me where the Waldensians were violent. Also, the Cathars were Gnostics, it's not really fair to class them as Protestants.
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