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Author Topic: Does Christianity inherently spread hate? Help me stop my possible apostasy.  (Read 5357 times) Average Rating: 0
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Volnutt
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« on: September 23, 2011, 12:11:22 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 12:23:08 AM »

I will pray for you.

It is true that we are to love all unconditionally, including our perceived or real enemies.

However, that unconditional love is impossible without Christ. Only as we begin to grow in theosis, will our love begin to grow.

In the meantime, we need to stop seeing faults in others because Christ told us not to judge.

Look at the Prayers before Communion where each of us is to admit that we are unworthy to receive our Lord in Holy Communion, because we are chief among sinners. In spite of this, He bids us to come to Him. Without Christ, we will remain in our sins. With Christ, we can grow in theosis and become Saints.

Therefore, let us pray for each other and not judge.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:26:59 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2011, 12:28:06 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians....

I don't know what to do.
Do you have any Jewish friends?
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2011, 12:30:12 AM »

There is no inherent anti-semitism in the Orthodox faith, but there are anti-semites who happen to be Orthodox.
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2011, 12:31:39 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians....

I don't know what to do.
Do you have any Jewish friends?

I know that you were asking this question of Volnutt. However, I have a dear Jewish friend, and he loves the Orthodox Church. He was in the Diaconate program until he had a major heart attack which weakened his health. He is so grateful that he is part of the Orthodox Christian Church. His love is very apparent and everyone cherishes him as a living saint.
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2011, 12:33:02 AM »

There is no inherent anti-semitism in the Orthodox faith, but there are anti-semites who happen to be Orthodox.

Very true.

Christ is the head of our Church. Is Christ anti-Semitic? No.
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2011, 12:36:50 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians....

I don't know what to do.
Do you have any Jewish friends?
No. Why?
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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2011, 12:38:09 AM »

Ethiopia is certainly an exception to the rule. Ethiopia was a Judaic nation before it converted to Christianity, and there is no inherent anti-semitism in Ethiopia.


Selam
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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2011, 12:39:04 AM »

There is no inherent anti-semitism in the Orthodox faith, but there are anti-semites who happen to be Orthodox.
That's an easy thing to say, and I used to say it, but the vast history of anti-semitism throughout "Christendom" then becomes a pretty hard thing to swallow as being essentially a giant coincidence.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:56:37 AM by Volnutt » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2011, 12:43:42 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.
People often break down and persecute heretics, even in Christian societies.
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2011, 12:47:36 AM »

Ethiopia is certainly an exception to the rule. Ethiopia was a Judaic nation before it converted to Christianity, and there is no inherent anti-semitism in Ethiopia.


Selam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel#1627_-_the_mid-19th_century
Quote
During the reign of Emperor Yeshaq (1414–1429) who invaded the Jewish kingdom, annexed it and began to exert religious pressure. Yeshaq divided the occupied territories of the Jewish kingdom into three provinces which were controlled by commissioners appointed by him. He reduced the Jews' social status below that of Christians[73] and forced the Jews to convert or lose their land. It would be given away as rist, a type of land qualification that rendered it forever inheritable by the recipient and not transferable by the Emperor. Yeshaq decreed, "He who is baptized in the Christian religion may inherit the land of his father, otherwise let him be a Falāsī." This may have been the origin for the term "Falasha" (falāšā, "wanderer," or "landless person").

Quote
Later on the forces of the Ethiopian emperor invaded the kingdom in the region of Begemder and massacred many of the Jews in that region throughout a period of seven years. The Christian armies were exceptionally merciless. The Emperor Yacob Zara (reigned 1434–1468) even proudly added the title "Exterminator of the Jews" to his name. Although the area of the kingdom became significantly smaller afterwards, the Jews were able to restore their mountain kingdom eventually
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2011, 12:48:10 AM »

Ethiopia is certainly an exception to the rule. Ethiopia was a Judaic nation before it converted to Christianity, and there is no inherent anti-semitism in Ethiopia.


Selam
RABBI YEFET ALAMO SAYS that he is, and always has been, a dreamer. He had to be a dreamer, he smiles, to survive. Almo, 52, emigrated from Ethiopia, an agrarian society, to Israel, a post-industrial society, at the age of 22. His dreams, he says, helped him face anti-Semitism in Ethiopia.

http://www.ethiosun.com/tag/anti-semitism/



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« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 01:23:16 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2011, 12:49:16 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.
People often break down and persecute heretics, even in Christian societies.
Sure, but to the this extent, both persecution and general hatred?
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2011, 12:50:02 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.
People often break down and persecute heretics, even in Christian societies.
Sure, but to the this extent, both persecution and general hatred?
Why are there no Cathari, Bogomils, or Paulicians hanging around today, Volnutt? Why does the Nestorian Church have such a small membership compared to 700 years ago?

And the hate was definitely on both sides. The difference was who had power.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:53:01 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2011, 12:55:25 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.
People often break down and persecute heretics, even in Christian societies.
Sure, but to the this extent, both persecution and general hatred?
Why are there no Cathari, Bogomils, or Paulicians hanging around today, Volnutt? Why does the Nestorian Church have such a small membership compared to 700 years ago?
I'm not saying Christians never killed anybody but Jews. I'm saying the Jews always get the rump end of it in a society where Christianity has taken route, even when other undesirables are tolerated, it seems.
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2011, 12:57:09 AM »

I'm not saying Christians never killed anybody but Jews. I'm saying the Jews always get the rump end of it in a society where Christianity has taken route, even when other undesirables are tolerated, it seems.
Other undesirables?
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2011, 01:16:19 AM »

I am one who could probably not read St. John Chrysostom's Homilies Against the Jews for the reason you imply, that Christian-majority history and culture have tended to breed antisemitism.  (Or they seem to...eventually, more often than not.)  Not that reading them would turn me anti-Jewish, but rather have too much difficulties with this particular saint, whose homilies otherwise (on the Gospels and Epistles, the relative few that I've read) I really like and find to be a good bridge of sorts between Protestantism and Orthodoxy/Catholicism.  Suppose, you could always remain Protestant, and then remain by apparent default Jewish-friendly, either as an interfaith ('all paths lead to God', 'they have the first and still everlasting covenant' one could say about the Jews) liberal Protestant, or an Israel-loving "they are God's chosen people" Evangelical.  Or, if you want to become Orthodox, you could painfully endure and try to cut through the seeming grime of history and suggestive anti-Jewish leanings in some of the prayers and patristic writings, and remember the point underlying it all, which is the sincere hope that the Jews, individually and collectively, will turn to Christ.  Stick with the passage in Romans (can't give it, sorry) where Paul expressed his own conviction that 'the Jews will be saved'.

The seeming anti-Jewishness/antisemitism of many Orthodox (I am not saying most, or a plurality as if one of any type exists) does sometimes add to my hesitancy of Orthodoxy's absolutist, "One True Church" claims, and want to believe that Messianic Judaism, in some form yet to be seen and exclusively for ethnic/prior religious Jews, could be a viable option for more Jews to become Christians and not feel they were denying everything Jewish in their culture.
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2011, 01:34:12 AM »

I'm not saying Christians never killed anybody but Jews. I'm saying the Jews always get the rump end of it in a society where Christianity has taken route, even when other undesirables are tolerated, it seems.
Other undesirables?
Gypsies, etc. In quote marks of course.
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2011, 01:34:48 AM »

I am one who could probably not read St. John Chrysostom's Homilies Against the Jews for the reason you imply, that Christian-majority history and culture have tended to breed antisemitism.  (Or they seem to...eventually, more often than not.)  Not that reading them would turn me anti-Jewish, but rather have too much difficulties with this particular saint, whose homilies otherwise (on the Gospels and Epistles, the relative few that I've read) I really like and find to be a good bridge of sorts between Protestantism and Orthodoxy/Catholicism.  Suppose, you could always remain Protestant, and then remain by apparent default Jewish-friendly, either as an interfaith ('all paths lead to God', 'they have the first and still everlasting covenant' one could say about the Jews) liberal Protestant, or an Israel-loving "they are God's chosen people" Evangelical.  Or, if you want to become Orthodox, you could painfully endure and try to cut through the seeming grime of history and suggestive anti-Jewish leanings in some of the prayers and patristic writings, and remember the point underlying it all, which is the sincere hope that the Jews, individually and collectively, will turn to Christ.  Stick with the passage in Romans (can't give it, sorry) where Paul expressed his own conviction that 'the Jews will be saved'.

The seeming anti-Jewishness/antisemitism of many Orthodox (I am not saying most, or a plurality as if one of any type exists) does sometimes add to my hesitancy of Orthodoxy's absolutist, "One True Church" claims, and want to believe that Messianic Judaism, in some form yet to be seen and exclusively for ethnic/prior religious Jews, could be a viable option for more Jews to become Christians and not feel they were denying everything Jewish in their culture.

The only problem with this is that by becoming Christians any formerly "observant" Jew is going to be denying everything Jewish about their culture, at least in the eyes of their family and community, no matter what form of Christianity they were to adopt. This attitude isn't because Christians have been by and large anti-semitic over the years, the attitude was part of the Jewish psyche back when they were the ones persecuting us.

Anti-semitism is inexcusable, as is any sort of shedding blood over other matters of heresy, but above all Orthodox Christians are people, and as such are prone to sin. It is fallen nature to hate and fear those who are different, and every culture rotates who it hates and fears on a cyclic basis. Just an example: in post-Hastings England a Saxon was worse than a Jew in the eyes of the Norman, a century or two later Jews topped the list, a century or two after that it was Afghans or some other form of brown person who didn't know their place in the Empire. And at all times in the UK better Jewish than Irish.

In Russia Jews might be reviled at one period, or the Polish, or Germans, or the French, all depending on prevailing sympathies at the time. We tend to hear more about anti-semitism for one reason- Jews have a very long memory, and a religious habit of sitting around at least once a year and reciting all the wrongs that have been done to them.
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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2011, 01:35:34 AM »

I'm sorry, people. This thread has kind of been in overeaction. Thanks for your responses. I'll be ok.
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2011, 01:40:01 AM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.
Ultimately, people are sinners. Please don't let Christian sinfulness keep you away from the Church.

Now, I in no way wish to justify wrong actions committed by Christians, but the street goes both ways. Only in our secular (and increasingly anti-Christian) culture has Church ever been portrayed as the great Jewish persecutor. Many events throughout history were responses to things the Jewish community had started. Many times the Christians provoked Jewish actions by committing evil against them first. Both communities have wronged each other and both need to forgive each other.
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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2011, 02:01:50 AM »

Because you live in Western society and Jews have been the most prominent minority within our society for the last millenia-and-a-half you are most aware of Western anti-semitism. But the fact is that prominent minorities, particularly if those minorities self-consciously attempt to hold to their separate status, always end up persecuted. That's not to excuse the societies in which it happens but to point out that this is not a problem with Christian society, but with human society.
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2011, 02:07:13 AM »

I'm sorry, people. This thread has kind of been in overeaction. Thanks for your responses. I'll be ok.

My prayers. God grant you many years.
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2011, 02:11:11 AM »

I'm sorry, people. This thread has kind of been in overeaction. Thanks for your responses. I'll be ok.

My prayers. God grant you many years.
Thanks.
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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2011, 02:28:16 AM »

Ethiopia is certainly an exception to the rule. Ethiopia was a Judaic nation before it converted to Christianity, and there is no inherent anti-semitism in Ethiopia.


Selam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel#1627_-_the_mid-19th_century
Quote
During the reign of Emperor Yeshaq (1414–1429) who invaded the Jewish kingdom, annexed it and began to exert religious pressure. Yeshaq divided the occupied territories of the Jewish kingdom into three provinces which were controlled by commissioners appointed by him. He reduced the Jews' social status below that of Christians[73] and forced the Jews to convert or lose their land. It would be given away as rist, a type of land qualification that rendered it forever inheritable by the recipient and not transferable by the Emperor. Yeshaq decreed, "He who is baptized in the Christian religion may inherit the land of his father, otherwise let him be a Falāsī." This may have been the origin for the term "Falasha" (falāšā, "wanderer," or "landless person").

Quote
Later on the forces of the Ethiopian emperor invaded the kingdom in the region of Begemder and massacred many of the Jews in that region throughout a period of seven years. The Christian armies were exceptionally merciless. The Emperor Yacob Zara (reigned 1434–1468) even proudly added the title "Exterminator of the Jews" to his name. Although the area of the kingdom became significantly smaller afterwards, the Jews were able to restore their mountain kingdom eventually



Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity retains may Judaic elements, and Ethiopia is the only truly Judaic Christian nation in the world (in the sense that Ethiopia made the natural transition from Judaism to Christianity). Certainly, Ethiopian history contains unfortunate records of anti-semitic actions and policies, but today Ethiopia enjoys a healthy relationship with Israel and demonstrates a comparatively more postive view of Israel than most other Orthodox communities.


Selam

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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2011, 05:31:07 AM »

Selam to you all  Smiley
dear Volnutt, I am sorry that human history is riddled with human evil done even in the name of good, however christianity as the Savior thought it is never a religion of hate.

as to Ethiopia having an anti semetic hate I think we need to clarify what we mean, although some sorces seem to distort it to fit thier end in thier atempt to rewrite history by modern standards. so here is my two cents for all that it is worth, i will leave the remaining research of History for those concerned to get a balanced information not only from wiki written by biased sources who are writting to fit their agenda and to give credit for thier cause.I am going to dwell on the meaning of the term anti Semite throughout as it is relevant to what we mean when we say it , and what it was ment when it was used to commit atrocities against humans of jewish ancestry.

Anti Semitism as I understand it to mean is a hate against a persons of judaistic ancestry, it is a racial hate.  Under this definition A Jew can be a Christian or a Muslim or practicing Judaism, he or she will be the victim of anti Semitism because of the racial nature of the hate. As we have seen in the holocaust the extermination is based on race. To those who were anti Semites The fact that many Jews practiced Judaism was a secondary factor. In Ethiopia no such racial hate against Jews have ever existed. In fact those who were ruling power took great pride of their Jewish ancestry and saw it as the legitimate source of their authority to rule. However there is intense dislike for the judaistic religion practiced by those who remained unconverted by the Christian movement in Ethiopia.  In Ethiopian history The increasing social and political religious tension between Ethiopians who practiced Judaism and Christianity eventually culminated in an all out war that resulted in the toppling of the great Christian Dynasty of Axum by a Judaism practicing woman named Judith ‘yodit’ or as she is mostly known in the Christian highlands as Judith the horrible, Judith the fire for her burning everything she wanted to destroy including people. She remains the most known and glorified legend woman in Ethiopian history for her brutality, and extermination of the Christian ruling family and the Christians and their church and monasteries. Many Ethiopian ancient manuscripts and churches are said to have been destroyed by her under her unchallenged 40 year rule. Until the Christian Zagewe dynasty took over power from her. After that the bête Israel retreated into the remote countries of the land and continued to live isolated lives in the middle of an overwhelming Christian majority. Unfortunately there were attempt by kings (who claimed proudly to being the eradicators of Jews i.e. Ethiopians who still practiced Judaism) who see them as potential threats still  some of the royal family were known to be practitioners of Judaism still to convert them into Christianity by demanding they abide by the religion of the land.  Those that converted became part of the general society with no racial stigma as this was not a racial issue for the Ethiopians. When the forced conversion did not fully  work, they were left alone but the religion they practiced continued to be seen as one that openly rejects the Christ and God’s will for mankind. The same holds true for Islam in Ethiopia, there was a time that after the constant invasion of the Muslims , those Ethiopians who practiced Islam were seen as  tools of the enemy force and they  were by royal edict forced to renounce their religion for the state religion of Christianity. This of course did not work, as the emperor died soon after his short lived campaign of re-Christianizing Ethiopia by the hand of his enemies the Muslim invaders. The bête Israel who remained isolated freely practiced their religion in their respective community once seen as powerless to be of any eminent political threat. Since social acceptance of their religion or way of life is nearly nonexistent they lived and functioned in isolation. Anti Semitism as it is now portrayed as a racial discrimination is definitely nonexistent, in Ethiopia unless we can say the Christian Jews of Ethiopia hated their Jewish ancestry and their Judeo-Christian culture and attempted to exterminate themselves. We all know that the bête Israel of Ethiopia are under a lot of political and social even religious persecution, in Israel. There is even a racial persecution that goes on, to the point of rejecting the blood donations of the Ethiopian Jews. what names can we then give such persecution? Anti -Semitism, committed by the Semitics themselves? No, there is more to the story than that. By the same token in the case of Ethiopia the sad unfavorable conditions of the bête Israel faced is not a racial extermination or hate, rather it is a religious and sociopolitical hostility that went on as most imperfect human history indicates in this world. To conclude , for Ethiopians their judaistic ancestry is a secred ancestry, however that does not mean those Ethiopians who practiced Judaesim had it easy in this land of judeo Christian heritage. Those two religions and the followers have been hostile to one another in one form or another. But at no point in their history were the Ethiopians anti Semites that’s just distorting the meaning of the term. Even today when Ethiopians speak of the Jews of at the time of Christ, they speak in terms of what they believe they know the difference between the apostles who were Jews and those who persecute them who were also Jews. They refer to the converts as Christians and to the non converted as Jews who still practice Judaism (ayihud) as the Jews who were persecuting the Christians were not practicing anti Semitism rather a religious persecution, the hostility and in some cases the persecution of Ethiopians who practiced Judaism by the Christian kings was also a religious and political persecution never a racial one. So if anti Semitism means anti practicing of Judaism religion then yes it has existed and still dose among some, but if it means a racial hate of judaistic ancestry then nothing can be further from the truth, as all the imperial titles of the Christian Ethiopian kings would indicate for those who would quickly refer to history from the right sources.

selam
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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2011, 06:11:11 AM »

Selam to you all  Smiley
dear Volnutt, I am sorry that human history is riddled with human evil done even in the name of good, however christianity as the Savior thought it is never a religion of hate.

as to Ethiopia having an anti semetic hate I think we need to clarify what we mean, although some sorces seem to distort it to fit thier end in thier atempt to rewrite history by modern standards. so here is my two cents for all that it is worth, i will leave the remaining research of History for those concerned to get a balanced information not only from wiki written by biased sources who are writting to fit their agenda and to give credit for thier cause.I am going to dwell on the meaning of the term anti Semite throughout as it is relevant to what we mean when we say it , and what it was ment when it was used to commit atrocities against humans of jewish ancestry.

Anti Semitism as I understand it to mean is a hate against a persons of judaistic ancestry, it is a racial hate.  Under this definition A Jew can be a Christian or a Muslim or practicing Judaism, he or she will be the victim of anti Semitism because of the racial nature of the hate. As we have seen in the holocaust the extermination is based on race. To those who were anti Semites The fact that many Jews practiced Judaism was a secondary factor. In Ethiopia no such racial hate against Jews have ever existed. In fact those who were ruling power took great pride of their Jewish ancestry and saw it as the legitimate source of their authority to rule. However there is intense dislike for the judaistic religion practiced by those who remained unconverted by the Christian movement in Ethiopia.  In Ethiopian history The increasing social and political religious tension between Ethiopians who practiced Judaism and Christianity eventually culminated in an all out war that resulted in the toppling of the great Christian Dynasty of Axum by a Judaism practicing woman named Judith ‘yodit’ or as she is mostly known in the Christian highlands as Judith the horrible, Judith the fire for her burning everything she wanted to destroy including people. She remains the most known and glorified legend woman in Ethiopian history for her brutality, and extermination of the Christian ruling family and the Christians and their church and monasteries. Many Ethiopian ancient manuscripts and churches are said to have been destroyed by her under her unchallenged 40 year rule. Until the Christian Zagewe dynasty took over power from her. After that the bête Israel retreated into the remote countries of the land and continued to live isolated lives in the middle of an overwhelming Christian majority. Unfortunately there were attempt by kings (who claimed proudly to being the eradicators of Jews i.e. Ethiopians who still practiced Judaism) who see them as potential threats still  some of the royal family were known to be practitioners of Judaism still to convert them into Christianity by demanding they abide by the religion of the land.  Those that converted became part of the general society with no racial stigma as this was not a racial issue for the Ethiopians. When the forced conversion did not fully  work, they were left alone but the religion they practiced continued to be seen as one that openly rejects the Christ and God’s will for mankind. The same holds true for Islam in Ethiopia, there was a time that after the constant invasion of the Muslims , those Ethiopians who practiced Islam were seen as  tools of the enemy force and they  were by royal edict forced to renounce their religion for the state religion of Christianity. This of course did not work, as the emperor died soon after his short lived campaign of re-Christianizing Ethiopia by the hand of his enemies the Muslim invaders. The bête Israel who remained isolated freely practiced their religion in their respective community once seen as powerless to be of any eminent political threat. Since social acceptance of their religion or way of life is nearly nonexistent they lived and functioned in isolation. Anti Semitism as it is now portrayed as a racial discrimination is definitely nonexistent, in Ethiopia unless we can say the Christian Jews of Ethiopia hated their Jewish ancestry and their Judeo-Christian culture and attempted to exterminate themselves. We all know that the bête Israel of Ethiopia are under a lot of political and social even religious persecution, in Israel. There is even a racial persecution that goes on, to the point of rejecting the blood donations of the Ethiopian Jews. what names can we then give such persecution? Anti -Semitism, committed by the Semitics themselves? No, there is more to the story than that. By the same token in the case of Ethiopia the sad unfavorable conditions of the bête Israel faced is not a racial extermination or hate, rather it is a religious and sociopolitical hostility that went on as most imperfect human history indicates in this world. To conclude , for Ethiopians their judaistic ancestry is a secred ancestry, however that does not mean those Ethiopians who practiced Judaesim had it easy in this land of judeo Christian heritage. Those two religions and the followers have been hostile to one another in one form or another. But at no point in their history were the Ethiopians anti Semites that’s just distorting the meaning of the term. Even today when Ethiopians speak of the Jews of at the time of Christ, they speak in terms of what they believe they know the difference between the apostles who were Jews and those who persecute them who were also Jews. They refer to the converts as Christians and to the non converted as Jews who still practice Judaism (ayihud) as the Jews who were persecuting the Christians were not practicing anti Semitism rather a religious persecution, the hostility and in some cases the persecution of Ethiopians who practiced Judaism by the Christian kings was also a religious and political persecution never a racial one. So if anti Semitism means anti practicing of Judaism religion then yes it has existed and still dose among some, but if it means a racial hate of judaistic ancestry then nothing can be further from the truth, as all the imperial titles of the Christian Ethiopian kings would indicate for those who would quickly refer to history from the right sources.

selam


Thank you Hiwot!


Selam
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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2011, 09:46:28 AM »

Volnutt,

I recomend you read René Girard, a very good philosopher on the origins of violence in culture and society and who examines deeply the issue of violence in Christianity.

Check these books:

The Scapegoat
http://www.amazon.com/Scapegoat-Ren%C3%A9-Girard/dp/0801839173/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_6

I See Satan Fall Like Lightning
http://www.amazon.com/See-Satan-Fall-Like-Lightning/dp/1570753199/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_8

Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World
http://www.amazon.com/Things-Hidden-Since-Foundation-World/dp/0804722153/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c

Basically, according to Girard finding scapegoats to be innocent sacrificial victims to appease psychological-social unrrest - under the self-deceit of appeasing gods or fighting for ideals - is a common human trait in all cultures. Societies only find order after and because of the sacrifice of an innocent. All myths and even modern narratives, though, take the point of view of the angry mob and describe the sacrifice as something justified. Edipus must be blinded. Uranus should be exiled. The Jews must die. Americans must die. Muslims must die.  All with "good" reasoning.

The biblical narrative though is completely different from such narratives even if taken only in its literary value. Look at Abel, Joseph, Job, John Baptist, Christ, Stephen and even later martyrs. The Bible and the Church stubbornily refuse to accept the accusations of the mob. In other society the consensus around the need to kill the "scapegoat" dominates the "history" of the event. Not with the Bible. It records that Abel is inocent. Joseph is inocent. Job resists with all his inner strength the accusatory slander of his own friends until God Himself appears to prove he is innoncent. John was the greatest of the sons of man. Jesus is the Lamb of God, inocent blood. Stephen throws at the face of Synedrium that they were in the "tradition" of the angry mob, murderers of inocent prophets. The Bible does not allow the demonization of the victims while all the other religions actually adopt and sanctify these narratives.

He notices that the judgment of Socrates is one of the few events in classic antiquity where a non-Christian source goes out of its way to show that the victim is inocent despite de collective consensus over his guilt and it is, therefore, a fitting precursor for Christianity.
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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2011, 10:38:57 AM »

It's fallen human nature. People kill other people, using any difference (religious, ethnic, and political differences seem pretty popular) as an excuse, and when they can't find one, they make one up. It's what people do in this fallen world. All of fallen human nature is the same. No one is innocent. No one.

It's probably not the answer you're looking for or the one you want to hear, but it's the truth. Forsaking Christ isn't going to change anything for the better. If anything, dwelling on this could possibly cause you to harbor anger and resentment, which isn't positive at all. What's even worse is to entirely forsake Christ over something which the entire human race is guilty of, as if that is going to somehow make you less implicated in that which the entire (even the Jews have done it to others) human race is guilty of.

We live in a sinful world. There is no way around it. The only way to overcome this sinful world is through Christ.
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2011, 12:05:20 PM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.
You seem to think that this is exclusive of Christian societies, which is absolutely false. Look at the the atheistic communist regime that has killed more people than an religious society in all of history. Look at all of the unborn that have been killed by a post-christian secular society. Look at all of the people slaughtered by muslims. Look at all of the people killed by pagan Rome,etc. You see, it is not Christianity that is the cause of hatred but our fallen human nature. It is a thing common to all human societies.
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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2011, 12:05:20 PM »

We can wrangle with it and say that it is all people not following the teachings of Christ, not acting as Christians, etc. but either way the fact remains that in every single society which has had a long term Christian majority and a culture influenced by Christianity has been tainted to some extent by antisemitism. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, the Balkans- for most of history AD were probably the worst places on earth to be Jewish and probably remain so to this day. The reason World War II Germany had so many Jews in the first place is they were fleeing Eastern Europe.

England is the country where the word "holocaust" is actually first used in it's modern sense! And don't even get me started on France, Spain, and the US. I forget which character it was in Ulysses who said the only reason Ireland didn't have a history of persecuting Jews is because they never let any in the country to begin with (I know that's hyperbole, but still...)

I'm having a hard time believing Christianity, let alone Orthodox Christianity, can really be the true way of God when it is constantly followed by this cancer which seems to be so pervasive in the Christian world even today. I know there are hateful Jews, but it seems like Judaism has been followed by such a specific and pernicious targeting of a single people even though they are probably the most savagely abused group on the planet.

I don't know what to do.
read the history of non-Christian societies, and compare Christendom to them, not to the idealized utopia you have constructed in your mind, a utopia uninhabited by real people.
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« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2011, 01:41:57 PM »

Volnutt,

I recomend you read René Girard, a very good philosopher on the origins of violence in culture and society and who examines deeply the issue of violence in Christianity.

Only one Girard reference a week. I already dropped his name this week. //:=)
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« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2011, 01:47:49 PM »

Wow,

Papist and Isa finally agree and both are wrong.

How does this address the question in any meaningful way? Oh THEY are worse!

And was he suggesting a migration to the Early Roman Republic?

Bottom line. Most "Christians" ain't. And Orthodox countries have loved killing and torturing Jews for a long time, Hitler was just better at it or more efficient.

Vollnut hang in there. Don't other people, even if it is the majority of Christians especially Orthodox define what Christianity or Orthodoxy is, if we do, then we MUST concede your point.

Stick close to Gospels. Not so much to history.

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« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2011, 01:48:55 PM »

Ethiopia is certainly an exception to the rule. Ethiopia was a Judaic nation before it converted to Christianity, and there is no inherent anti-semitism in Ethiopia.


Selam

I am so glad this triumphalism was corrected quickly in this thread.
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« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2011, 01:56:23 PM »

I do agree; let's not justify the hate that surely existed (although probably not in everyone at that time, as stories will help back that up). Christ is more than that. We are a fallen, very fallible people. Secular humanism and education has shown the world that in some ways, we can be better people. But the story of Jesus Christ completes the picture. I really can't think of anything else that does.

Loving in the purest form that we are called to hates nothing except for evil.

And Aaron, Protestantism wasn't always "Jewish-friendly," like you're thinking of the Zionists dwelling in Evangelical churches now. When I went to the Holocaust Memorial Museum, it stood out to me that they really mentioned Luther when talking about anti-Semitism in Christianity. I also think there was a mention of the Catholics, but nothing about Orthodoxy. Not that it excuses ANYONE on those three denominations for evil behavior, but I just wanted to add a comment on that.
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« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2011, 02:45:29 PM »

Which countries today are anti-Semitic, besides the Arabic/Islamic countries?
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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2011, 02:57:56 PM »

This thread like all is getting off the OP. It wasn't anti-semetism per se.

Read the subject line.

Does Christianity spread hate?

Yes

Do Christians spread hate?

Yes

You can parse what Christian/ity is to a point where you can deny the above by begging the question or no True Scotsman, but anyone with a bit of sense would say yes.

But for Volnutt and certainly for the rest of us the question is what would Christ have us to be?

As said, Volnutt has come to terms with this for a moment regarding this question.

But any "Christian" who doesn't without qualification answer to the questions put forth by the subject line with yes is in delusion and probably not able to effectively deal with folks who Christianity and Christians have harmed.

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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2011, 03:06:21 PM »

I honestly don't know how to respond to your post.  What you say is true.  There are many things within Christendom, Orthodoxy in particular, that I find unsettling, not just the anti-semitism.  I will not attempt to justify it.  And not to belittle what you are experiencing right now, it is certainly real and powerful, but don't allow your emotions to take over, to control you.  It is completely normal to experience doubt and times of dryness, especially in this age, and especially considering that your concern is valid.  It is in these times that Our Lord waits patiently for us to call out to Him in prayer.  No one here, save God, can quell these thoughts and feelings.  I am confident that if you call out to Him, not seeking earthly knowledge, but Knowledge from above, the Lord will satisfy the sincere desire of your heart.  In my own personal experience, it requires excruciating patience.   
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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2011, 03:25:34 PM »

No the Church does not spread hate. That's just sheer pseudo-intellectual cynism.

The "hate" being talked about here is the persecution of the "other", however this "other" is identified.

This kind of persecution exists in all human groups. Including in the groups formed by these "others" against those they themselves regard as "others".

Therefore it is a human trait, not a Church trait. It is a human trait that happens through the Christian humans because they are humans, not because they are Christians.

Just like goodness, character and other virtues are not properly Christian but human potentials. What the Church does is that which no other human groups do: produce saints. Not everybody in the Church is a saint, but only in her saints occur.

It's like pointing out how many of the geniuses of the past had very low vices and then try to say they were not that great. It's just envy speaking there. The fact that they had so many vices just makes it more wonderful they have produced their great works, since millions with the same vices are unable to do anything similar. Likewise with the Church. Since men in her are so like every other men, it is even more miraculous that despite that, we still have people like the saints.
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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2011, 03:27:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Ethiopia is certainly an exception to the rule. Ethiopia was a Judaic nation before it converted to Christianity, and there is no inherent anti-semitism in Ethiopia.


Selam

Ahem, what?  I beg to differ on that analysis Wink


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2011, 03:40:41 PM »

By the way, St. Paul said he was willing to loose Christ if that would help save the Jews. And so did Moses.
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« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2011, 03:43:06 PM »


If one thinks back.....to about.....oh Cain and Abel.....It seems fallen humanity has always persecuted each other out of jealousy, pride, ego, etc.

Please, don't fool yourself into thinking this is strictly a Christian phenomenon. 

Also, don't get hung up too much on Jewish persecution or the Holocaust (which WAS tragic) but, wasn't the only genocide the world has seen.

Mankind can be cruel, and often is.

Christianity teaches love, peace and being non-judgmental.  Whether you want to hear it or not, it truly is not the Church at fault, but, her fallen followers.
The Church does not condone persecution or killing.

The Church battles to save souls, not to condemn them.

Don't worry too much about it.  God will sort it all out in the end.
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« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2011, 03:49:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If one thinks back.....to about.....oh Cain and Abel.....It seems fallen humanity has always persecuted each other out of jealousy, pride, ego, etc.

Please, don't fool yourself into thinking this is strictly a Christian phenomenon. 

Also, don't get hung up too much on Jewish persecution or the Holocaust (which WAS tragic) but, wasn't the only genocide the world has seen.

Mankind can be cruel, and often is.

Christianity teaches love, peace and being non-judgmental.  Whether you want to hear it or not, it truly is not the Church at fault, but, her fallen followers.
The Church does not condone persecution or killing.

The Church battles to save souls, not to condemn them.

Don't worry too much about it.  God will sort it all out in the end.

Amen Amen.

5 Million non-Jews including many Catholic/Orthodox Poles and Russians were murdered alongside those 6 million Jews, and nearly 20 million Russians died in the War, so clearly its more complicated than Zionist conspiracies would have us convinced as a "us against the Jews" kind of thing.  In this context, I think your post is absolutely correct.  It has become part of humanity's fallen nature to hate other human beings, be it out of racism, xenophobia, or just spite.  Sometimes this manifests as black against whites, or Christians against Jews, or Somalis against Ethiopians, etc etc.. but it is the same intrinsic hatred that drives these illogical, irreverent ideologies.

It is good for us to be transparent though, and to discuss these matters openly and freely, that our misconceptions and misunderstandings might be resolved through dialogue.  I also feel that we Christians have to do this same thing in regards to Islam, on this forum and in general, there is a lot of backlash, racism, xenophobia, bigotry, and hatred expressed against Islam, and seemingly with impunity that!

Intolerance anywhere against any peoples threatens the harmony and security and mutual respect of ALL humanity, there are no winners in that, just universal loss of human dignity which God implanted in us from Creation. Is God a racist? Doesn't God allow His Sun to rise up each morning on the just and wicked alike? Maybe we should pray to learn by His example..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2011, 03:57:04 PM »

This thread like all is getting off the OP. It wasn't anti-semetism per se.

Read the subject line.

Does Christianity spread hate?

Yes

Do Christians spread hate?

Yes

You can parse what Christian/ity is to a point where you can deny the above by begging the question or no True Scotsman, but anyone with a bit of sense would say yes.

But for Volnutt and certainly for the rest of us the question is what would Christ have us to be?

As said, Volnutt has come to terms with this for a moment regarding this question.

But any "Christian" who doesn't without qualification answer to the questions put forth by the subject line with yes is in delusion and probably not able to effectively deal with folks who Christianity and Christians have harmed.



One day, when Muslims become a minority, I fear Christians will be called "inherently Islamophobes" for its reaction and relationship to them.

If we're talking about fifth century Judaism, we are talking about a totally different Judaism than today.  In a post WWII world, it would be hard to find any right-minded Christian to publicly express any anti-Semitism.  In fact, if anything it seems that the Western, Christian majority nations today are the ones protecting Jews, not angry against them.
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« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2011, 05:37:07 PM »

Wow,

Papist and Isa finally agree and both are wrong.

How does this address the question in any meaningful way? Oh THEY are worse!

And was he suggesting a migration to the Early Roman Republic?

Bottom line. Most "Christians" ain't. And Orthodox countries have loved killing and torturing Jews for a long time, Hitler was just better at it or more efficient.

Vollnut hang in there. Don't other people, even if it is the majority of Christians especially Orthodox define what Christianity or Orthodoxy is, if we do, then we MUST concede your point.

Stick close to Gospels. Not so much to history.


My point was not that non-Christian societies are worse than Christian ones. My intended point was to argue that Christianity is not the cause of evils and injustices anymore than other ideologoy. In fact, since such evils and injustices seem to be present in many different kinds of societies, from pagan, to Christian, to atheist, that is not the ideology that causes the injustices, but rather a fallen human nature and inclination to sin.
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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