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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and alcohol...  (Read 8568 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 21, 2011, 09:00:20 PM »

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell. 

I mean, I realize you shouldnt get drunk, but whats wrong with a Guinness every now and then?  Or an awesome IPA? Maybe a glass of wine with my wife?

Im pretty sure nothing is wrong with these things, but is there any specific church teaching on the matter?
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2011, 09:07:14 PM »

No alcohol on most Wednesdays and Fridays and during the fasting periods except on the Saturday and Sunday (pretty much every Saturday and Sunday is wine-friendly). Other than that, enjoy, but don't get ****-faced.
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 09:11:04 PM »

Serbs drink beer all the time.

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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 09:12:48 PM »

Serbs drink beer all the time.



Yeah, too bad there's never been any Serbian parishes near me. I could totally live 13 days in the past for liquid bread.
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 09:34:12 PM »

More than one psalm mentions that wine gladdens the heart; and Apostle Paul advised an ailing Timothy to not just drink water, but a little wine for his stomach's sake. Christ's first miracle was turning water into wine, and it was good wine, at that!  laugh And, of course, the Eucharist is wine mixed with water.

No alcohol on most Wednesdays and Fridays and during the fasting periods except on the Saturday and Sunday (pretty much every Saturday and Sunday is wine-friendly). Other than that, enjoy, but don't get ****-faced.

Exactly.  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 09:35:31 PM »

Well this is all great news.  I certainly do love a good brew. 

I was already pretty sure that this was the case, but i wanted to make sure!

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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 09:39:08 PM »

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell.

You'll be fine as long as you're saved and accept Jesus's death on the cross as a punishment for all your sins.  Wink

But seriously, everything in moderation. They didn't drink "unfermented grape juice" back in ancient times.
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 09:49:00 PM »

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell.  

I mean, I realize you shouldnt get drunk, but whats wrong with a Guinness every now and then?  Or an awesome IPA? Maybe a glass of wine with my wife?

Im pretty sure nothing is wrong with these things, but is there any specific church teaching on the matter?
Actually my friend, that mentality has no basis in Christianity and is little more than a throw-back to our collective Puritanical roots. Nothing more.
it reminds me of the argument I got into with my Grandmother. She said that the wine jesus transformed from water was grape juice and that it was grape juice everytime wine was mentioned. THEN I had to go into the history of anti-fermentation techniques......*sigh*

PP
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 09:51:30 PM by primuspilus » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 09:59:30 PM »

Serbs drink beer all the time.



And don't forget the wicked Serbian plum brandy!
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 10:00:52 PM »

If the Orthodox didn't approve of wine, they wouldn't even mention it on the fasting calendar (at least the EO calendar, from what I know). Wink

I indulge in a lambic or sangria once in a while or get a little champagne happy twice a year. I think that drunkenness is what should be avoided at all costs, and I'm a light-weight, so it's always one or two glasses for me. And I'm okay with that!

PS. Mr. Ismi and I almost cried when they gave out wine at a church raffle. AND we hosted a wine festival! We had to "hide" our drinking at other churches because no one else we knew drank...or admitted that they did. I heard a lot of lectures about evil alcohol and used to be one of the preachers myself, until I understood that you could drink moderately and not have it lend to sin.
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 10:07:54 PM »

Serbs drink beer all the time.



And don't forget the wicked Serbian plum brandy!
Which is awesomeness BTW Smiley

PP

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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 10:08:16 PM »

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell.  

I mean, I realize you shouldnt get drunk, but whats wrong with a Guinness every now and then?  Or an awesome IPA? Maybe a glass of wine with my wife?

Im pretty sure nothing is wrong with these things, but is there any specific church teaching on the matter?
Actually my friend, that mentality has no basis in Christianity and is little more than a throw-back to our collective Puritanical roots. Nothing more.
it reminds me of the argument I got into with my Grandmother. She said that the wine jesus transformed from water was grape juice and that it was grape juice everytime wine was mentioned. THEN I had to go into the history of anti-fermentation techniques......*sigh*

PP

yea, ive heard those arguments too.  note that i grew up protestant AND in the bible belt (southern U.S.). It seems that this is the only place on the planet where alcohol is so heavily frowned upon.

the reason i brought it up was because I do contract music work for a HUGE baptist church in my area  (i mean tens of thousands).  As we finished leading worship a guy came up and did announcements for the college gathering I do music for.  They made t-shirts and all that stuff for the event and he was advertising that.  They also made koozies with the logo of the event i play guitar for.  He said that if anyone put alcohol in the koozie, he would punch them in the face!! in his defense, he was kind of joking, but at the same time it was a serious  reflection of what these people believe about alcohol.  I mean, it was a college gathering.  Most people there already drink alcohol probably.  Why say something like that?? I hope anyone who may have been offended still comes back next week.  I realize its a Protestant church, but I personally would rather have someone hear the gospel at a protestant church than not at all.  I also think the speaker does a good job.

Anyways, thats my situation.  Thats why I brought it up!
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 10:11:18 PM »

If the Orthodox didn't approve of wine, they wouldn't even mention it on the fasting calendar (at least the EO calendar, from what I know). Wink

I indulge in a lambic or sangria once in a while or get a little champagne happy twice a year. I think that drunkenness is what should be avoided at all costs, and I'm a light-weight, so it's always one or two glasses for me. And I'm okay with that!

PS. Mr. Ismi and I almost cried when they gave out wine at a church raffle. AND we hosted a wine festival! We had to "hide" our drinking at other churches because no one else we knew drank...or admitted that they did. I heard a lot of lectures about evil alcohol and used to be one of the preachers myself, until I understood that you could drink moderately and not have it lend to sin.

yea. i agree.

I mean, Im a guy who is 23 years old and weighs close to 200 pounds.  Im not a huge guy, but I can have 2 or 3 beers without even feeling a buzz.  ESPECIALLY if I have food, too.  I dont see what the difference is in me having 3 beers while watching a football game at a pub, and me having 3 cokes. 

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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2011, 10:19:12 PM »

As I have argued with orthonorm in another thread, if your body can take 5 or 6 beers at a time and you don't get drunk, it becomes a matter of gluttony, not drunkenness. Wink Moderation is good when it comes to this stuff!

Obviously, I'm not going to look down on someone who abstains. I hate being with people that try to "force" the non-drinkers to drink. I end up sympathizing and drinking water in the corner with the Baptists just because I feel so bad for them. But I do have a problem with thinking that drinking any alcohol whatsoever is a horrible sin.
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2011, 10:24:15 PM »

I just had to post no one has said anything about a good vodka I swear there's something in that vodka to make all them pretty Russian women  laugh
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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 10:24:22 PM »

Drinking unfermented grape juice in Communion, is like handling a non-venomous garter snake in a snake-handling service.
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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2011, 10:30:38 PM »

Drinking unfermented grape juice in Communion, is like handling a non-venomous garter snake in a snake-handling service.

Except in the latter case, it's the only smart thing to do, while in the former it takes an appalling willful ignorance to advocate.
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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2011, 10:34:20 PM »

I just had to post no one has said anything about a good vodka I swear there's something in that vodka to make all them pretty Russian women  laugh

im not a huge vodka fan.  maybe because im not russian!! haha.  i do love some good whiskey though!!
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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2011, 10:34:53 PM »

I just had to post no one has said anything about a good vodka I swear there's something in that vodka to make all them pretty Russian women  laugh

All women are pretty if you have enough vodka!  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2011, 10:36:03 PM »



Is it wine or dairy?
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2011, 12:06:09 AM »

I just had to post no one has said anything about a good vodka I swear there's something in that vodka to make all them pretty Russian women  laugh

im not a huge vodka fan.  maybe because im not russian!! haha.  i do love some good whiskey though!!

I already liked my vodka (or "wodka" as Chekhov from Star Trek says), but it was taken to a whole new level when a family of Russian background in my parish brings around a frozen bottle of Stoli on Pascha while we feast on our Pascha basket contents.

Yum! Yum! Yum!
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2011, 02:10:22 AM »

Vodka? No.
It's all about Tequila!  Cheesy

(On a serious note I do hope my parents one day feel the same way about me becoming Orthodox as they do about me drinking. Undecided I just don't get it. It's okay to drink, but it's not okay to be Orthodox?)
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2011, 02:27:23 AM »

Serbs drink beer all the time.



And don't forget the wicked Serbian plum brandy!
I gotta try that.
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2011, 03:05:44 AM »

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell. 

I mean, I realize you shouldnt get drunk, but whats wrong with a Guinness every now and then?  Or an awesome IPA? Maybe a glass of wine with my wife?

Im pretty sure nothing is wrong with these things, but is there any specific church teaching on the matter?

At my Serbian parish, there is a well stocked bar in the fellowship hall for weddings and other special occasions. 
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2011, 04:25:11 AM »

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell. 

I mean, I realize you shouldnt get drunk, but whats wrong with a Guinness every now and then?  Or an awesome IPA? Maybe a glass of wine with my wife?

Im pretty sure nothing is wrong with these things, but is there any specific church teaching on the matter?

At my Serbian parish, there is a well stocked bar in the fellowship hall for weddings and other special occasions. 

At EVERY Serbian parish there is a well stocked bar in the fellowship hall for weddings and other special occasions.  laugh
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2011, 05:58:07 AM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2011, 02:54:44 PM »

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell. 

I mean, I realize you shouldnt get drunk, but whats wrong with a Guinness every now and then?  Or an awesome IPA? Maybe a glass of wine with my wife?

Im pretty sure nothing is wrong with these things, but is there any specific church teaching on the matter?

At my Serbian parish, there is a well stocked bar in the fellowship hall for weddings and other special occasions. 

At EVERY Serbian parish there is a well stocked bar in the fellowship hall for weddings and other special occasions.  laugh

Sounds like I need to join a Serbian parish...
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2011, 02:55:41 PM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

I like the way you think.

Jeez. Everyone's gonna think I'm an alcoholic. Im not, I promise!!
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2011, 03:10:04 PM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

I like the way you think.

Jeez. Everyone's gonna think I'm an alcoholic. Im not, I promise!!
It's okay, my entire church joins you in that. Wink
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2011, 03:13:27 PM »

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell. 

I mean, I realize you shouldnt get drunk, but whats wrong with a Guinness every now and then?  Or an awesome IPA? Maybe a glass of wine with my wife?

Im pretty sure nothing is wrong with these things, but is there any specific church teaching on the matter?

At my Serbian parish, there is a well stocked bar in the fellowship hall for weddings and other special occasions. 

At EVERY Serbian parish there is a well stocked bar in the fellowship hall for weddings and other special occasions.  laugh

  laugh
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2011, 03:49:30 PM »

Oh boy, once you start talking with an Orthodox about wine and spirits, get ready for an earful (and quite possibly a mouthful)!  Cheesy
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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2011, 04:06:36 PM »

Oh boy, once you start talking with an Orthodox about wine and spirits, get ready for an earful (and quite possibly a mouthful)!  Cheesy
Or even a snootfull! (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snootful) for those not familiar

PP
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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2011, 04:13:48 PM »

Oh boy, once you start talking with an Orthodox about wine and spirits, get ready for an earful (and quite possibly a mouthful)!  Cheesy
Or even a snootfull! (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snootful) for those not familiar

PP

Snootfull!!! I've never heard that before, but I'm going to start using that term. Haha.
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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2011, 04:26:42 PM »

Oh boy, once you start talking with an Orthodox about wine and spirits, get ready for an earful (and quite possibly a mouthful)!  Cheesy
Or even a snootfull! (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snootful) for those not familiar

PP

Snootfull!!! I've never heard that before, but I'm going to start using that term. Haha.

You're in the South and never heard that? Really? You must be in Yankee friendly territory (a rareity where you're at  Cheesy Cheesy)


PP
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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2011, 04:44:35 PM »

Oh boy, once you start talking with an Orthodox about wine and spirits, get ready for an earful (and quite possibly a mouthful)!  Cheesy
Or even a snootfull! (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snootful) for those not familiar

PP



Snootfull!!! I've never heard that before, but I'm going to start using that term. Haha.

You're in the South and never heard that? Really? You must be in Yankee friendly territory (a rareity where you're at  Cheesy Cheesy)


PP

I don't know why I haven't heard it, but I'm certainly not in Yankee territory! I'm from the country (although my hometown has grown alot the last ten years!). They used to have to pressure wash my high school parking lot because all the mud them boys would bring in on their truck tires! (school was on a dirt road.) now, I live 5 min from ATL and even still the county I live in is the reddest (republican) county in the state. Haha.

Guess I've just been livin under a rock!
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« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2011, 04:53:09 PM »

Oh boy, once you start talking with an Orthodox about wine and spirits, get ready for an earful (and quite possibly a mouthful)!  Cheesy
Or even a snootfull! (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snootful) for those not familiar

PP



Snootfull!!! I've never heard that before, but I'm going to start using that term. Haha.

You're in the South and never heard that? Really? You must be in Yankee friendly territory (a rareity where you're at  Cheesy Cheesy)


PP

I don't know why I haven't heard it, but I'm certainly not in Yankee territory! I'm from the country (although my hometown has grown alot the last ten years!). They used to have to pressure wash my high school parking lot because all the mud them boys would bring in on their truck tires! (school was on a dirt road.) now, I live 5 min from ATL and even still the county I live in is the reddest (republican) county in the state. Haha.

Guess I've just been livin under a rock!
Dry county maybe? Smiley

PP
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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2011, 05:16:26 PM »

Certainly not! Haha.
Oh boy, once you start talking with an Orthodox about wine and spirits, get ready for an earful (and quite possibly a mouthful)!  Cheesy
Or even a snootfull! (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snootful) for those not familiar

PP



Snootfull!!! I've never heard that before, but I'm going to start using that term. Haha.

You're in the South and never heard that? Really? You must be in Yankee friendly territory (a rareity where you're at  Cheesy Cheesy)


PP

I don't know why I haven't heard it, but I'm certainly not in Yankee territory! I'm from the country (although my hometown has grown alot the last ten years!). They used to have to pressure wash my high school parking lot because all the mud them boys would bring in on their truck tires! (school was on a dirt road.) now, I live 5 min from ATL and even still the county I live in is the reddest (republican) county in the state. Haha.

Guess I've just been livin under a rock!
Dry county maybe? Smiley

PP
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« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2011, 05:56:57 PM »

i grew up protestant AND in the bible belt (southern U.S.). It seems that this is the only place on the planet where alcohol is so heavily frowned upon.

I am embarassed to tell you that, unfortunately, in my "old" home country, Ukraine, Pentecostals and Seventh Day Adventists also preach complete abstention from alcohol.

My wife once was invited to a Ukrainian Pentecostal wedding and had the weirdest impression. She said it was just surreal. She ran away very soon.

And yes, where I live now, in the Southeastern USA, you see this exaggerated hate of alcohol all the time. A few years ago, my wife and I were at a Methodist wedding. A co-worker of my wife's, a guy from Croatia who was also at that wedding, said, "you know, I think when my Croatian grandfather died and we had a wake, people had much more fun than they are having here today..."
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« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2011, 06:13:28 PM »


I am embarassed to tell you that, unfortunately, in my "old" home country, Ukraine, Pentecostals and Seventh Day Adventists also preach complete abstention from alcohol.
Yes, but that is not part of Ukrainian culture at all. These are American-sponsored groups that have existed in Ukraine only for 20 years. And while they might attract some people wo want to stop drinking, or women wo suffer from alcoholic husbands, the vast majority of Ukrainians would never embrace a "dry" religion. Glory to God for that.
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« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2011, 08:18:14 PM »

Although I'm not 100% non-drinking, I do drink a lot less than I used to. I have to. I had a problem. Also, I was in a bad car wreck years ago. That really puts the damper on it. I don't bother those who drink, but I hope they'd do the same for me. It would be a shame if I go to a wedding and I'm not drunk and people think I'm a jerk because of that.
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« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2011, 08:57:08 PM »

Although I'm not 100% non-drinking, I do drink a lot less than I used to. I have to. I had a problem. Also, I was in a bad car wreck years ago. That really puts the damper on it. I don't bother those who drink, but I hope they'd do the same for me. It would be a shame if I go to a wedding and I'm not drunk and people think I'm a jerk because of that.

I wouldn't. Sad I don't drink all that often either (sometimes it's boring + I'm perpetually broke). It seems like a strange phenomenon to me to pressure non drinkers into drinking. I've never seen that. I do see people try to pressure them into accepting it (i.e. force them to stop saying it's wrong)... Not sure what to say to that.
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« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2011, 09:54:40 PM »

Serbs drink beer all the time.

Beer is the staple of my diet during the fasting periods. Thank God for liquid bread, and thank God that I was received by the Serbs.
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« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2011, 11:10:08 PM »

No alcohol on most Wednesdays and Fridays and during the fasting periods except on the Saturday and Sunday (pretty much every Saturday and Sunday is wine-friendly). Other than that, enjoy, but don't get ****-faced.
My priest is of the opinion that beer does not fall under the fast, though I don't know how feelings go on that.
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« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2011, 11:47:56 PM »

I thank god I do not need to ask the honourable priesthood and the (sub)diaconate in Christ as to what to eat or drink.
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« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2011, 12:23:02 AM »

Soju all the way.
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« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2011, 12:31:26 AM »

Tofu beer
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« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2011, 01:25:09 AM »

Tofu beer

That sounds gross.
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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2011, 01:29:18 AM »



Quote
Beer is the staple of my diet during the fasting periods. Thank God for liquid bread, and thank God that I was received by the Serbs.

I would have ended the first sentence after the word 'diet'. Ha!
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« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2011, 02:45:47 PM »



Quote
Beer is the staple of my diet during the fasting periods. Thank God for liquid bread, and thank God that I was received by the Serbs.

I would have ended the first sentence after the word 'diet'. Ha!

haha.
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« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2011, 10:23:57 PM »

I thank god I do not need to ask the honourable priesthood and the (sub)diaconate in Christ as to what to eat or drink.
I didn't. Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2011, 10:37:57 PM »

I thank god I do not need to ask the honourable priesthood and the (sub)diaconate in Christ as to what to eat or drink.

Here's some more attention Too Cool For School.
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« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2011, 11:55:20 PM »

I thank god I do not need to ask the honourable priesthood and the (sub)diaconate in Christ as to what to eat or drink.

Here's some more attention Too Cool For School.
Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home. But over here, it seems, Orthodoxy is a hyper-clericalized sect. we also had priests that never encouraged this aberrant behaviour.
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« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2011, 12:06:51 AM »

I thank god I do not need to ask the honourable priesthood and the (sub)diaconate in Christ as to what to eat or drink.

Here's some more attention Too Cool For School.
Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home. But over here, it seems, Orthodoxy is a hyper-clericalized sect. we also had priests that never encouraged this aberrant behaviour.

Just curious... where are you from?
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« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2011, 12:08:46 AM »

I thank god I do not need to ask the honourable priesthood and the (sub)diaconate in Christ as to what to eat or drink.

Here's some more attention Too Cool For School.
Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home. But over here, it seems, Orthodoxy is a hyper-clericalized sect. we also had priests that never encouraged this aberrant behaviour.

Just curious... where are you from?
From the land of vampires and werwolves . Seriously.
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« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2011, 12:44:32 AM »

To the OP:

We are not legalists.

I hope this answers the question.
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« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2011, 01:27:58 AM »

Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.
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« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2011, 03:28:48 AM »

Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.
Lord, have mercy!  laugh
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« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2011, 02:24:47 PM »

Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.
This thread also reminds me of another topos of American Orthodoxy: the Evangelical-turned -Orthodox discovers that now he can have a beer and never stops talking about it. The Ochlophobist was able to put this better, AFAIR.
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« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2011, 02:29:20 PM »

Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.
This thread also reminds me of another topos of American Orthodoxy: the Evangelical-turned -Orthodox discovers that now he can have a beer and never stops talking about it. The Ochlophobist was able to put this better, AFAIR.

My tradition never said I couldn't have beer. I was referring to some other southern baptist traditions that I work with from time to time. I posted this thread right after I was dealing with some of those people and was sort of posting out of frustration. I have never believed that alcohol was bad for the Christian.
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« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2011, 04:47:25 PM »


No more gross than any other kind of beer. Now rum... that at least has a good base to start from.  If only alcohol didn't make me sick nowadays...
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« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2011, 04:52:27 PM »


No more gross than any other kind of beer. Now rum... that at least has a good base to start from.  If only alcohol didn't make me sick nowadays...

Speaking of rum, I need a new bottle of Kraken.
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« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2011, 08:32:14 PM »

Timon,
I like a good beer too. But I have a question. Are you sure you are not looking for a God that lets you do what you want? If it was proven that the Southern Baptists were right, and that drinking was a sin in the eyes of God, would you walk away from it?
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« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2011, 08:48:21 PM »

Timon,
I like a good beer too. But I have a question. Are you sure you are not looking for a God that lets you do what you want? If it was proven that the Southern Baptists were right, and that drinking was a sin in the eyes of God, would you walk away from it?

Of course I would. Again, I have never believed it to be a sin in the eyes of God. Neither did my tradition. I posted this out of frustration because I heard a guy say "if I see you with alcohol, I'll punch you inter face." this was in a southern baptist setting.  Never did I say, "oh wow! Orthodox people are ok with alcohol! I should convert!"

As a former Protestant, I can affirm that the majority of people in my tradition are more than happy to sip a tasty brew. I'm certainly not trying to do whatever I want.
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« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2011, 09:42:53 PM »

Soju all the way.
Soju FTW.
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« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2011, 12:17:43 AM »


+1
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« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2011, 09:10:01 AM »

Personal and political bickering was moved to the Politics board. If you don't have an access there and would like to get one, ask FrChris.
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« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »

But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.
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« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2011, 09:33:34 PM »

Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.
This thread also reminds me of another topos of American Orthodoxy: the Evangelical-turned -Orthodox discovers that now he can have a beer and never stops talking about it. The Ochlophobist was able to put this better, AFAIR.

As I recall he enjoyed talking about micro-breweries a lot at one stage in his hipsterdom. Then I guess he became too cool to talk about them anymore.

And you like talking so much about girls... are you an ex-Shaker or something?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 09:35:14 PM by Iconodule » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2011, 02:17:09 PM »

I thank god I do not need to ask the honourable priesthood and the (sub)diaconate in Christ as to what to eat or drink.

Here's some more attention Too Cool For School.
Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home. But over here, it seems, Orthodoxy is a hyper-clericalized sect. we also had priests that never encouraged this aberrant behaviour.

Just curious... where are you from?
From the land of vampires and werwolves . Seriously.

Forks, Washington?
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« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2011, 03:01:11 PM »

Reminds me of the Prohibition in the 1920's. Growing up in NYC. I heard many stories about those times and it seems that among all the ethnic groups like the Irish, Italians, Poles. etc there was no support and even opposition to this experiment that was attributed to puritanical protestants.  For one, the Roman Catholic Church actually opposed Prohibition and I am sure that the Orthodox ignored it and kept drinking. Breaking the law and consuming alcohol may have been a crime but it was never a "sin". I have never attended any social or organization function at an Orthodox church where alcohol was not present is one form or the other or in many forms.  It will be interesting to see the upcoming TV special on Prohibition.





















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« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2011, 06:22:43 PM »

Well, neither did any of the people I knew, back home.

Yes, but I would presume "back home" that people learn things like fasting from their parents or at least others around them. Here, where Orthodoxy is having to be learned from the ground up, so to speak, people sometimes have to ask details about how to fast properly and such. We're babies and need everything spelled out for us at one time or another. But I'm sure back home everyone walks with a hip, disaffected pauper's swagger, lording their destitute legitimacy over obnoxious foreigners.

Or perhaps the reality is that most of them think that our culture is heaven on earth with wealth and abundance for all. Probably the same thing that brought you over here and the same thing that keeps you here, you sour bag of grapes.
This thread also reminds me of another topos of American Orthodoxy: the Evangelical-turned -Orthodox discovers that now he can have a beer and never stops talking about it. The Ochlophobist was able to put this better, AFAIR.

As I recall he enjoyed talking about micro-breweries a lot at one stage in his hipsterdom. Then I guess he became too cool to talk about them anymore.

And you like talking so much about girls... are you an ex-Shaker or something?
I still drink very good beer.
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« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2011, 06:34:11 PM »

Reminds me of the Prohibition in the 1920's. Growing up in NYC. I heard many stories about those times and it seems that among all the ethnic groups like the Irish, Italians, Poles. etc there was no support and even opposition to this experiment that was attributed to puritanical protestants.  For one, the Roman Catholic Church actually opposed Prohibition and I am sure that the Orthodox ignored it and kept drinking. Breaking the law and consuming alcohol may have been a crime but it was never a "sin". I have never attended any social or organization function at an Orthodox church where alcohol was not present is one form or the other or in many forms.  It will be interesting to see the upcoming TV special on Prohibition.


=> First, I remember neat old guy whose son went on to become a Presbyterian minister telling us how his fraternity at Dartmouth made bathtub gin during Prohibition. Also, I don't remember the New England Puritan colony(ies) ever instituting any kind of 'prohibition'.

=> I would say that arrogantly defying an otherwise acceptable civil law, even if you don't like it, is sin.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 06:35:00 PM by sprtslvr1973 » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2011, 10:58:58 PM »

Reminds me of the Prohibition in the 1920's. Growing up in NYC. I heard many stories about those times and it seems that among all the ethnic groups like the Irish, Italians, Poles. etc there was no support and even opposition to this experiment that was attributed to puritanical protestants.  For one, the Roman Catholic Church actually opposed Prohibition and I am sure that the Orthodox ignored it and kept drinking. Breaking the law and consuming alcohol may have been a crime but it was never a "sin". I have never attended any social or organization function at an Orthodox church where alcohol was not present is one form or the other or in many forms.  It will be interesting to see the upcoming TV special on Prohibition.


=> First, I remember neat old guy whose son went on to become a Presbyterian minister telling us how his fraternity at Dartmouth made bathtub gin during Prohibition. Also, I don't remember the New England Puritan colony(ies) ever instituting any kind of 'prohibition'.

=> I would say that arrogantly defying an otherwise acceptable civil law, even if you don't like it, is sin.

It's not an otherwise acceptable law.  Outlawing alcohol is apostasy, plain and simple.  All that's left is one "there is not God but Allah" and you're a Moslem.
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« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2011, 11:21:01 PM »

From St. John Chrysostom (don't ask me why I saved this one):


Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics; [...] For [Paul] does not simply say, “use a little wine;” but having said before, “drink no longer water,” he then brings forward his counsel as to the drinking of wine. And this expression “no longer” was a manifest proof, that till then he had drunk water, and on that account was become infirm.  But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all,  in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city  [i.e., blaspheming against God by saying that wine is evil.]. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God. -Homilies on the Statues 1,7
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« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2011, 11:43:10 PM »

Thus spake the Golden Tongued!  If any vile heretics henceforth speak against wine then I shall smite them.
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« Reply #75 on: September 26, 2011, 11:51:19 PM »

From St. John Chrysostom (don't ask me why I saved this one):


Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics; [...] For [Paul] does not simply say, “use a little wine;” but having said before, “drink no longer water,” he then brings forward his counsel as to the drinking of wine. And this expression “no longer” was a manifest proof, that till then he had drunk water, and on that account was become infirm.  But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all,  in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city  [i.e., blaspheming against God by saying that wine is evil.]. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God. -Homilies on the Statues 1,7

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« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2011, 11:59:13 PM »

From St. John Chrysostom (don't ask me why I saved this one):


Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics; [...] For [Paul] does not simply say, “use a little wine;” but having said before, “drink no longer water,” he then brings forward his counsel as to the drinking of wine. And this expression “no longer” was a manifest proof, that till then he had drunk water, and on that account was become infirm.  But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all,  in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city  [i.e., blaspheming against God by saying that wine is evil.]. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God. -Homilies on the Statues 1,7


Love this.
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« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2011, 12:33:12 PM »

From St. John Chrysostom (don't ask me why I saved this one):


Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics; [...] For [Paul] does not simply say, “use a little wine;” but having said before, “drink no longer water,” he then brings forward his counsel as to the drinking of wine. And this expression “no longer” was a manifest proof, that till then he had drunk water, and on that account was become infirm.  But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all,  in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city  [i.e., blaspheming against God by saying that wine is evil.]. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God. -Homilies on the Statues 1,7


And that's the ball game.....

PP
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« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2012, 05:01:49 AM »

While I'm not Orthodox, I'm thinking of becoming Orthodox, perhaps, one day.... That said, I can't speak for Orthodoxy, and I don't claim my personal use (or lack thereof) of alcohol is the 'Christian' view, I must confess that I myself am a teetotalist, and with the exception of wine at the Holy Communion, I will not drink alcohol. While I do not see alcoholic beverages as something bad in themselves, I personally feel that there is something very wrong in the way many modern people, and certainly in my own country (the U.S.) view alcohol. They seem to be using it, not simply to 'merry the heart', and certainly not for taste but to fill a void inside of them. And as such, it all to often seems to lead to one abuse or another. I'm not disagreeing with St. John Chrysostom, mind you, but from my own experiences with alcohol in the lives of people around me and in the present age, I had to come to a personal conclusion not to encouraging alcoholic consumption by consuming it myself, or by any other means. Even if I join the Orthodox church, I would like to continue to uphold this personal conviction for myself (assuming it won't make me a heretic)... it's something I've done since before I was a even Christian. I've never been drunk or buzzed or 'made merry', and I think I'm doing just fine. At the very least I know I don't need to lubricate my life with alcohol in order to unwind and deal with social situations. Forcing myself to never employ such a device (or crutch) has taught me to deal with things without it. The fact that many cannot is why I am not using it.

Now, I'm not saying this is how everyone else should be. It is, admittedly, a personal conviction, and not something I am mistaking for the definitive Christian stance, and I won't go around preaching it or judging others because of it. All of my friends drink alcohol and they know my way of treating it and that I do not think less of them. Nevertheless I confess that down inside I do feel as St. Paul a desire for others to 'be as I am', but alas, oh well. Smiley  
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« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2012, 05:24:17 AM »

While I'm not Orthodox, I'm thinking of becoming Orthodox, perhaps, one day.... That said, I can't speak for Orthodoxy, and I don't claim my personal use (or lack thereof) of alcohol is the 'Christian' view, I must confess that I myself am a teetotalist, and with the exception of wine at the Holy Communion, I will not drink alcohol. I personally feel that there is something very, very, VERY wrong...heinously so...in the way that modern people view alcohol. They seem to be using it, not simply to 'merry the heart', but to fill a void inside of them. And as such, in usually seems to lead to abuse. As such, I won't have any part in encouraging alcoholic consumption, by consuming it myself, or by any other means. Even if I join the Orthodox church, I will likely continue to uphold my personal conviction... it's something I've had since before I was a even Christian. I've never been drunk, never even slightly buzzed, and you know what, I'm doing just fine. I don't need to lubricate my life with alcohol in order to unwind and deal with social situations. Forcing myself to never employ such a device (or crutch) has taught me to deal with things the natural way, in a normal and undiluted state of consciousness.

Now, I'm not saying this is how everyone else should be. It is, admittedly, a personal conviction, and not something I am mistaking for the definitive Christian stance, and I won't go around preaching it. Nevertheless I must confess that down inside I do feel as St. Paul a desire for others to 'be as I am', but alas, oh well. Smiley   

That would be fine. I even know some Romanians whose only alcohol consumption would come with Eucharist (not many, for sure, and mostly because of some sort of history with alcoholism - either theirs or a loved ones). As long as you don't expect everyone else to follow your lead there'll be no issue whatsoever. If you're ever at a Romanian agape meal, though - expect to be offered wine. I usually turn it down because I have a 40 minute drive after DL to get home, but I do occasionally have a small sip, particularly if it's a major feast.

James
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« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2012, 08:43:51 AM »

don't worry, armchair theologian, you can join the coptic orthodox church, most of us don't drink.
 Smiley
i do have a sip occasionally with my friends (hope my priest is not reading this...) but generally i avoid it.
 Wink
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« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2012, 11:25:00 PM »

PLEASE tell me that the Orthodox church isnt like all these southern baptist churches i work with who think if you ever drink alcohol you will burn in hell. 

I mean, I realize you shouldnt get drunk, but whats wrong with a Guinness every now and then?  Or an awesome IPA? Maybe a glass of wine with my wife?

Im pretty sure nothing is wrong with these things, but is there any specific church teaching on the matter?

When I led a tour group to Greece with some Lutherans, we had a pre-tour dinner at my Orthodox church. The Lutheran one didn't allow alcohol (except for communion), whereas the Orthodox church kept wine glasses in the kitchen.
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« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2012, 11:28:19 PM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

And whisky?
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« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2012, 12:32:00 AM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

And whisky?

Beer is forbidden during the Fast. Whiskey is okay.  Fasting is supposed to "strengthen your spirits" Wink
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« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2012, 12:32:57 AM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

And whisky?

Beer is forbidden during the Fast. Whiskey is okay.  Fasting is supposed to "strengthen your spirits" Wink
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« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2012, 04:19:54 AM »

I'm just going to say it. Orthodox is AWESOME!
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« Reply #86 on: November 16, 2012, 10:11:22 AM »

I associate wine with Orthodoxy. Zapivka, great feasts, Serbian tradition of Slave, while the drinking of red wine (as a symbol of Martyrs' Blood) - toasts - is connected with prayer and repentance...

But if somebody don't want to drink alcohol, that's good. There is always a danger of becoming an alcoholic. But that's also the reason why fasting in the Orthodox way is so good: I perceive the day "no-wine" as "no-alcohol" at all
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« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2012, 10:14:18 AM »

I associate wine with Orthodoxy. Zapivka, great feasts, Serbian tradition of Slave, while the drinking of red wine (as a symbol of Martyrs' Blood) - toasts - is connected with prayer and repentance...

But if somebody don't want to drink alcohol, that's good. There is always a danger of becoming an alcoholic. But that's also the reason why fasting in the Orthodox way is so good: I perceive the day "no-wine" as "no-alcohol" at all

For us no wine means no alcohol too. I'd always heard that the 'liquid bread' attitude to beer was a Slav thing, though, so it's interesting that you don't share it.

James
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« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2012, 10:38:04 AM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

And whisky?

Beer is forbidden during the Fast. Whiskey is okay.  Fasting is supposed to "strengthen your spirits" Wink

I think this depends on your tradition. My understanding is that the Russians would disagree with you about beer being forbidden.
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« Reply #89 on: November 16, 2012, 01:02:25 PM »

I associate wine with Orthodoxy. Zapivka, great feasts, Serbian tradition of Slave, while the drinking of red wine (as a symbol of Martyrs' Blood) - toasts - is connected with prayer and repentance...

But if somebody don't want to drink alcohol, that's good. There is always a danger of becoming an alcoholic. But that's also the reason why fasting in the Orthodox way is so good: I perceive the day "no-wine" as "no-alcohol" at all

For us no wine means no alcohol too. I'd always heard that the 'liquid bread' attitude to beer was a Slav thing, though, so it's interesting that you don't share it.

James

Yes, that's Slav thing, but although my 2 nationalities are Slav, I don't follow this let's say, "custom' of drinking other alcohols during fasting periods.
I perceive wine as "holier" (I can't find appropriate word) than other alcohols - I mean it was sanvtificated because this drink was chosen by Christ to be His Blood, also His first miracle is connected with wine. So, if such kind of alcohol is prohibited on particular day, why I could drink beer? Alcohol stills being alcohol, doesn't matter if it's wine or beer, they work in the same day. I don't drink alcohol during fasting days (at least during these 4 great fasts) at all, because after it I think a bit more differently, I have more entertaining mood etc. I link drinking alcohol with feasts or parties. And for me one of the most beautiful moments in the year are these ones, when I drink wine after the period of abstinence e.g. Pascha, Nativity.
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« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2012, 03:35:17 PM »

I think the proper answer is that thing St. Paul said about some things being good but not beneficial or something along those lines. In other words, there is nothing wrong with an alcoholic beverage in itself--provided you drink it maturely--but it may not always be beneficial for you, depending on the person. Some people can control themselves and drink responsibly, whereas others cannot. In the case of the former, it is okay for them to drink, but in the case of the latter, it would probably be better if they refrained from drinking.
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« Reply #91 on: December 03, 2012, 10:22:17 PM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

And whisky?

Beer is forbidden during the Fast. Whiskey is okay.  Fasting is supposed to "strengthen your spirits" Wink

I think this depends on your tradition. My understanding is that the Russians would disagree with you about beer being forbidden.

I don't know about "forbidden", but it is pretty clear that abstaining from non-wine forms of alcohol demonstrates a proper appreciation for the spirit of the prohibition on wine. I do not understand why some Slavs persist in the legalism inherent in saying "wine means wine": it is a mindset I find quite bizarre and strangley offensive in its resemblance to modern Anglo-American jurisprudence.
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« Reply #92 on: December 03, 2012, 10:54:09 PM »

I don't know about "forbidden", but it is pretty clear that abstaining from non-wine forms of alcohol demonstrates a proper appreciation for the spirit of the prohibition on wine. I do not understand why some Slavs persist in the legalism inherent in saying "wine means wine": it is a mindset I find quite bizarre and strangley offensive in its resemblance to modern Anglo-American jurisprudence.

I agree, although I suppose there are perhaps somewhat more sensible historical reasons for it, rather than the "wine means wine" argument used by some. What those may be, I don't know.
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« Reply #93 on: December 03, 2012, 11:12:41 PM »

I don't know about "forbidden", but it is pretty clear that abstaining from non-wine forms of alcohol demonstrates a proper appreciation for the spirit of the prohibition on wine. I do not understand why some Slavs persist in the legalism inherent in saying "wine means wine": it is a mindset I find quite bizarre and strangley offensive in its resemblance to modern Anglo-American jurisprudence.

I agree, although I suppose there are perhaps somewhat more sensible historical reasons for it, rather than the "wine means wine" argument used by some. What those may be, I don't know.

Probably arctic-cold Slavic winters, the same thing that makes fish permissible more frequently.
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« Reply #94 on: December 03, 2012, 11:50:47 PM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

And whisky?

Beer is forbidden during the Fast. Whiskey is okay.  Fasting is supposed to "strengthen your spirits" Wink

Is that in the UGCC?  Or did you become canonically Orthodox overnight and forget to change your profile?
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« Reply #95 on: December 03, 2012, 11:53:09 PM »

I don't drink not because of religion but because even one drink gives me severe migraines.  Having said that to quote the local OCA priest "Look boys Christianity is a drinking religion as long as ya'll do it in absolute moderation".
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« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2012, 12:11:50 AM »

The 2 worst words in the English language, mod eration
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« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2012, 09:54:24 PM »

One of my "I love Orthodoxy" moments was when at the Paschal feast while I was a catechumen (in a GOA parish) the priest brought the beer! And it was good German beer! Couldn't stand the hypocrisy of hearing someone preach about the "inherent evils" of alcohol, esp as someone raised to do "all in moderation, nothing to excess."
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« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2012, 10:15:12 PM »

One of my "I love Orthodoxy" moments was when at the Paschal feast while I was a catechumen (in a GOA parish) the priest brought the beer! And it was good German beer! Couldn't stand the hypocrisy of hearing someone preach about the "inherent evils" of alcohol, esp as someone raised to do "all in moderation, nothing to excess."

Mine was when we had beer with our Bishop.
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« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2012, 10:40:27 PM »

The 2 worst words in the English language, mod eration

Definition of mod; to be erated.  Definition of erated; to be mod
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« Reply #100 on: December 08, 2012, 12:44:54 AM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

And whisky?

Beer is forbidden during the Fast. Whiskey is okay.  Fasting is supposed to "strengthen your spirits" Wink

I think this depends on your tradition. My understanding is that the Russians would disagree with you about beer being forbidden.

I don't know about "forbidden", but it is pretty clear that abstaining from non-wine forms of alcohol demonstrates a proper appreciation for the spirit of the prohibition on wine. I do not understand why some Slavs persist in the legalism inherent in saying "wine means wine": it is a mindset I find quite bizarre and strangley offensive in its resemblance to modern Anglo-American jurisprudence.

To be parted from Georgian wine is an intense ascetic experience.
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« Reply #101 on: December 08, 2012, 12:50:32 AM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

And whisky?

Beer is forbidden during the Fast. Whiskey is okay.  Fasting is supposed to "strengthen your spirits" Wink

I think this depends on your tradition. My understanding is that the Russians would disagree with you about beer being forbidden.

I don't know about "forbidden", but it is pretty clear that abstaining from non-wine forms of alcohol demonstrates a proper appreciation for the spirit of the prohibition on wine. I do not understand why some Slavs persist in the legalism inherent in saying "wine means wine": it is a mindset I find quite bizarre and strangley offensive in its resemblance to modern Anglo-American jurisprudence.

To be parted from Georgian wine is an intense ascetic experience.
Georgia wine is quite good.
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« Reply #102 on: December 08, 2012, 01:03:52 AM »

No alcohol on fasting days?

I never heard about that... No WINE means beer is ok.

And whisky?

Beer is forbidden during the Fast. Whiskey is okay.  Fasting is supposed to "strengthen your spirits" Wink

I think this depends on your tradition. My understanding is that the Russians would disagree with you about beer being forbidden.

I don't know about "forbidden", but it is pretty clear that abstaining from non-wine forms of alcohol demonstrates a proper appreciation for the spirit of the prohibition on wine. I do not understand why some Slavs persist in the legalism inherent in saying "wine means wine": it is a mindset I find quite bizarre and strangley offensive in its resemblance to modern Anglo-American jurisprudence.

To be parted from Georgian wine is an intense ascetic experience.
Georgia wine is quite good.

Ah, the imposter Georgia named for the imposter English king.
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« Reply #103 on: December 08, 2012, 02:19:23 PM »

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« Reply #104 on: December 08, 2012, 02:22:21 PM »


Easy enough.
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« Reply #105 on: December 08, 2012, 02:23:25 PM »

Kvass (which would loosely be in the beer family) is a fermented drink made from bread (hence liquid bread) with a low alcohol content that was/is popular in Slav lands and not forbidden during fasts.  The non-prohibition of Kvass seemed to extend to Beer among the Slavs once it became more common.
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« Reply #106 on: December 29, 2012, 10:21:07 AM »

I just returned yesterday from an Orthodox meeting organised by the ROCOR (Old calendar, so still on the nativity fast). The borshch was with soy smetana, but the beer was real.
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« Reply #107 on: December 29, 2012, 10:32:55 AM »

I don't know about "forbidden", but it is pretty clear that abstaining from non-wine forms of alcohol demonstrates a proper appreciation for the spirit of the prohibition on wine. I do not understand why some Slavs persist in the legalism inherent in saying "wine means wine": it is a mindset I find quite bizarre and strangley offensive in its resemblance to modern Anglo-American jurisprudence.

I couldnt disagree more.

Wine is not forbidden because it gets you drunk, but because it is linked with joy, celebrations and festivity. And at least in Europe, drinking beer is not a particular sign of celebration...
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« Reply #108 on: December 29, 2012, 10:38:01 AM »

And at least in Europe, drinking beer is not a particular sign of celebration...

 Huh
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« Reply #109 on: December 29, 2012, 12:56:07 PM »

I've always thought that 'no wine' days meant 'no alcohol whatever'. Doesn't matter what the booze is made of.

If I were inclined to quibble, I'd have an interesting personal conundrum: Cider over here is lumped together with the beer/ale family. In my understanding, long before I moved to the UK, cider is wine, just made of apples instead of grapes. So should I go with my personal definition (and abstain) or with the cultural one (and indulge)?

Not that I do have such a dilemma, but jus' sayin', yo.
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« Reply #110 on: December 29, 2012, 04:31:57 PM »

gorazd, which european countries have you been to / lived in?
did you miss the special cultural mixture of beer and football?

arachne (is your name because you like spiders?),
i think it's a great idea to have no alcohol on 'no wine' days.
fasting is about abstaining after all.
i think in europe, for a long time, the water quality was very poor, but there was readily available
very low alcohol content fermented drink (mead, beer etc), which would be safer to drink as the yeast and alcohol decreased the bacteria levels. so people (including children) would generally drink it when they could.
so if you want to have a 1% alcohol home made brew on your fasting day, this would probably be ok.

extra strong lager / cider would not be ok. it's also bad for your bowels.
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« Reply #111 on: December 29, 2012, 04:48:54 PM »

arachne (is your name because you like spiders?),
i think it's a great idea to have no alcohol on 'no wine' days.
fasting is about abstaining after all.
i think in europe, for a long time, the water quality was very poor, but there was readily available
very low alcohol content fermented drink (mead, beer etc), which would be safer to drink as the yeast and alcohol decreased the bacteria levels. so people (including children) would generally drink it when they could.
so if you want to have a 1% alcohol home made brew on your fasting day, this would probably be ok.

extra strong lager / cider would not be ok. it's also bad for your bowels.

I don't exactly like spiders, but I find we have a lot in common. Like the tendency to work on something all the time, no matter whether it will ever be finished, and incorporating everything that falls in my way into it. Wink

I'm far from teetotal, but I'm not a habitual drinker either, so abstaining from alcohol is not an issue (chocolate, now, is a whole 'nother kettle of fish!). I grew up on the old Greek drinking culture: wine, beer and ouzo or tsipouro, always in a social setting, and always with food. The UK 'lager lout' trademark still amazes me.
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« Reply #112 on: December 29, 2012, 05:53:10 PM »

If a football team loses, the fans drink, too. Maybe even more, in order to drink away their frustration. So it's not necessarily festive.

Actually, beer was already known in antiquity. And I am not aware of an Father of the Church who forbade it during fasting periods.
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« Reply #113 on: December 30, 2012, 05:38:41 PM »

If a football team loses, the fans drink, too. Maybe even more, in order to drink away their frustration. So it's not necessarily festive.

Actually, beer was already known in antiquity. And I am not aware of an Father of the Church who forbade it during fasting periods.

Im interested in reading everyones opinions about this. As a recent convert, I have always been unsure whether or not beer was ok. I havent really asked about it, but from what I can tell other people in my parish seem to drink beer on fast days. (i know that doesnt necessarily make it right. It just seems like ive seen tweets and instagrams of beers during fast times...)

Usually, I do drink beer on fast days but not wine.  My wife and I do like to drink red wines together (she isnt Orthodox) so typically on fast days she would have wine and id have a beer with dinner.

I totally understand how someone could make the point that you shouldnt drink any alcohol at all on fast days, and I have plenty of respect for that.  But what was the original reason for wine not being allowed on fast days? (not trying to justify my beer drinking, but this is a legit question.) Wasnt part of the reason because it was stored in animal skins and on fasts we try not to eat anything that comes from an animal? If thats the reason, (and i could be wrong) why would it be an issue to have beer? Especially if Gorazd is right and the Church Fathers didnt seem to prohibit it?
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« Reply #114 on: December 31, 2012, 07:32:18 AM »


Im interested in reading everyones opinions about this. As a recent convert, I have always been unsure whether or not beer was ok. I havent really asked about it, but from what I can tell other people in my parish seem to drink beer on fast days. (i know that doesnt necessarily make it right. It just seems like ive seen tweets and instagrams of beers during fast times...)

Usually, I do drink beer on fast days but not wine.  My wife and I do like to drink red wines together (she isnt Orthodox) so typically on fast days she would have wine and id have a beer with dinner.

I totally understand how someone could make the point that you shouldnt drink any alcohol at all on fast days, and I have plenty of respect for that.  But what was the original reason for wine not being allowed on fast days? (not trying to justify my beer drinking, but this is a legit question.) Wasnt part of the reason because it was stored in animal skins and on fasts we try not to eat anything that comes from an animal? If thats the reason, (and i could be wrong) why would it be an issue to have beer? Especially if Gorazd is right and the Church Fathers didnt seem to prohibit it?

Maybe the reason of storing wine in animal skins was the primary cause of no-wine during fasting days. However, I'll repeat, that I link drinking alcohol (of course, especially wine) with something festive. On fasting periods we should avoid something what's pleasure for us and can lead us to sin (if we drank too much...).  I'm much greater sinner than Church Fathers and I know that drinking alcohol during fasting time (I only drink it sometimes on "usual" Wednesdays and Fridays) is not the best idea. I really like to drink alcohol, so I must have some periods of abstinence, and and thanks to Orthodoxy I have plenty of them.  And even after little amount of alcohol the way of your thinking is changed, so (at least for me) it's easy way to break fast.
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« Reply #115 on: December 31, 2012, 02:35:34 PM »

If a football team loses, the fans drink, too. Maybe even more, in order to drink away their frustration. So it's not necessarily festive.

Actually, beer was already known in antiquity. And I am not aware of an Father of the Church who forbade it during fasting periods.

Im interested in reading everyones opinions about this. As a recent convert, I have always been unsure whether or not beer was ok. I havent really asked about it, but from what I can tell other people in my parish seem to drink beer on fast days. (i know that doesnt necessarily make it right. It just seems like ive seen tweets and instagrams of beers during fast times...)

Usually, I do drink beer on fast days but not wine.  My wife and I do like to drink red wines together (she isnt Orthodox) so typically on fast days she would have wine and id have a beer with dinner.

I totally understand how someone could make the point that you shouldnt drink any alcohol at all on fast days, and I have plenty of respect for that.  But what was the original reason for wine not being allowed on fast days? (not trying to justify my beer drinking, but this is a legit question.) Wasnt part of the reason because it was stored in animal skins and on fasts we try not to eat anything that comes from an animal? If thats the reason, (and i could be wrong) why would it be an issue to have beer? Especially if Gorazd is right and the Church Fathers didnt seem to prohibit it?
It was mostly stored in amphorae which were made of clay.
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« Reply #116 on: December 31, 2012, 02:44:19 PM »

And at least in Europe, drinking beer is not a particular sign of celebration...

 Huh

It is in Netherlands?
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« Reply #117 on: December 31, 2012, 02:45:38 PM »

It can be a sign of depression too, in which case it should be allowed. A contrite heart and a broken spirit...
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« Reply #118 on: December 31, 2012, 03:42:35 PM »

Like most questions, this is an "ask your spiritual father" one.

As has been noted, Slavic practice generally allows for beer on "no wine" days.  In Greek practice, "no wine" is usually interpreted as "no alcohol".  The difference in Greek and Slavic practices with regard to beer consumption on "no wine" days may be largely related to how different cultures and regions related to beer and wine historically.  Others have mentioned how beer became somewhat of a staple in Western Europe and other areas where water contamination was a major concern.  In such contexts, beer consumption was a matter of sustenance and survival, so allowing beer in such contexts during "no wine" days is easy to understand.  It should also be remembered that the beer consumed for sustenance in these contexts may also have been of fairly low alcohol content compared with commercial beers that are typically consumed today.   

It seems that beer never had much of a prominent role in Greek society as it did in other parts of the world, and this may at least partly explain the “no wine = no alcohol” rule in Greek practice.  I have a better understanding of the role of beer in Western Europe historically than I do of its role in Slavic history.  It would be interesting to know something about the beer that was allowed in Slavic practice on “no wine” days, and what the role of beer was in Slavic culture at the time. 

At one time, Russian monasteries were famous for their meads.  I assume that mead was considered a “honey wine” and thus not permitted on “no wine” days, but this would be interesting to know for sure.  It would also be interesting to know if the allowance of beer on “no wine” days extended even to the Russian Imperial Stout styles imported from England, which could be around 10% alcohol. 

Personally, I think that the “no wine = no beer” rule is a good one, especially keeping in mind how modern society relates to beer.  Probably all of us on this list have access to a good source of water and plenty of food, so beer consumption for us is probably more of a matter of pleasure and luxury rather than sustenance and survival.  The practice I have been given to follow is that “no wine = no alcohol”, and that I should also abstain from alcohol the day before receiving communion.  I don’t say this to imply that anyone else should do the same (go ask your own spiritual father what you should do!), but I do personally find this rule to be very helpful in observing the fasts and in preparing for receiving communion.  As a home brewer, I do appreciate a good beer and am never without large quantities of very excellent beer, as well as hard ciders and such.  Yet, as one who also wants to make sure that I am ultimately dependent only on God, I appreciate these days of required abstinence as an excuse to exercise discipline and to ensure that alcohol does not have a greater role in my life than it should.     
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« Reply #119 on: December 31, 2012, 05:13:24 PM »

In Greek practice, "no wine" is usually interpreted as "no alcohol". 

Although I have Slavic ancestry, I mostly attend the Greek parish in Frankfurt, Germany. And I have never heard of such a rule there. Neither in Greece itself. Also German Catholics, such as Franciscans, traditionally drink beer in lent.

So I guess it's a Greek-American practice. I don't understand why Americans cannot adopt a more casual attitude towards alcohol. It seems to be either dry or drunk... What about just having a normal glass of beer for dinner?
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« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2012, 05:14:25 PM »

  But what was the original reason for wine not being allowed on fast days? (not trying to justify my beer drinking, but this is a legit question.) Wasnt part of the reason because it was stored in animal skins and on fasts we try not to eat anything that comes from an animal?
That's for olive oil.
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