Author Topic: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses  (Read 2802 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ag_vn

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 409
Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« on: September 21, 2011, 01:25:43 PM »
http://www.armenianorthodoxchurch.org/v06/index.htm

Quote
Diocese of Lebanon
Diocese of Aleppo, Syria
Diocese of Jezireh, Syria
Diocese of Damascus, Syria
Diocese of Cyprus
Prelacy of Eastern United States of America
Prelacy of Western United States of America
Vicariate of Venezuela
Prelacy of Canada
Diocese of Greece
Diocese of Tehran, Iran
Diocese of Isfahan, Iran
Diocese of Azerbaijan, Iran
Diocese of Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates


What is the difference between a "diocese" and a "prelacy" in the Armenian Orthodox Church? Why are the dioceses in the USA and Canada called prelacies, instead of just dioceses?

Thanks.


Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,560
  • Shevchenko - extraordinary poet and top footballer
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2011, 01:29:44 PM »
Second question: is 'the diaspora' divided by the 4 Patriarchates? The Cilicia seems to have Americas and Greece, but what about Europe, Australia? Are they under Etchmyadzyn, Jerusalem or Constantinople? Does it mean that Etchmyadzyn, Jerusalem and Constantinople do not have their structures in the Americas or Greece?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 01:30:02 PM by Michał Kalina »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 384
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 04:17:42 PM »
There's a few things at work here.

1.  The coexistence of the terms Diocese and Prelacy is really only relevant in North and South America.  The term "Prelacy" is predominantly used to refer to dioceses under the authority of the Catholicosate of Cilicia.  As I understand it, Cilicia has historically overseen the Armenian Church in the general Mideast, which is most of what you see on that list.  "Diocese" is used for dioceses under control of the Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin.  It's an issue of how it's translated into English, really. 

2.  It was not until the mid 1950's (1956?) that Cilicia had formal prelacies in North America.  Though there was an informal break as early as the 1930's, prelacy parishes did not formally go under Cilician control until then.  Hence, in the United States and Canada, there are Eastern and Western Diocese and Prelacies, and a Diocese and Prelacy for Canada.  Many communities have two churches, often within sight of each other.  It's that kind of thing.

3.  Michal, in regards to your question.  No.  Cilicia does not "have" the Americas and Greece.  Cilicia, as I said, did not really have an administrative presence in the United States and Canada until the 50s.  There is no arrangement between the two over who controls which part of the world, only parallel jurisdictions if both have been established.  There are no Prelacy parishes in Armenia, and there are no Diocese churches in the Middle East.

4.  It's a little complicated to explain, and a bit outside my pay grade, but to start with the patriarchates.  The Patriarchates of Jerusalem and Constantinople look over very specific territories, and are essentially autonomous to themselves, though both recognize the primacy of Etchmiadzin.  In fact, the title of Patriarch isn't really much more than an official role held by an archbishop.  Jerusalem oversees the Armenian presence in the Holy Land.  Constantinople oversees the Armenian presence in Turkey, predominantly Istanbul.  Each maintains the primacy of Etchmiadzin.

The Catholicosates are a bit more complex, but each have their historical role.  Cilicia maintains that they are an equal Catholicosate to Etchmiadzin, while Etchmiadzin sees themselves as the Catholicosate of All Armenians, including Cilicia.  It's a bit of a sore subject, and I'm trying to be as diplomatic about it as possible, but there are historical issues going back hundreds of years that constitute the positions of both.  And a pile of political issues that are relevant today.

I hope I'm explaining that in a clear way.  The organizational structure of the Armenian Church is complex to say the least.

Here's the website for Etchmiadzin, by the way.

http://www.armenianchurch.org/

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,560
  • Shevchenko - extraordinary poet and top footballer
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 04:44:43 PM »
Many communities have two churches, often within sight of each other.  It's that kind of thing.

How do they get along together?

Quote
The Catholicosates are a bit more complex, but each have their historical role.  Cilicia maintains that they are an equal Catholicosate to Etchmiadzin, while Etchmiadzin sees themselves as the Catholicosate of All Armenians, including Cilicia.

Do they have official relations or is it more likely an India case?
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,626
  • Faith: Orthodox. Truly, madly, deeply
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 05:11:26 PM »
The organizational structure of the Armenian Church is complex to say the least.

That proves that the Armenian church is indeed an Orthodox church. :police:
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 384
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 08:38:19 PM »

How do they get along together?
In some places, cordial at best.  In other places, downright hostile.  There are some people who are a part of both communities, yet others who have never set foot in the "other church" and never will.  

Quote
Do they have official relations or is it more likely an India case?
I don't know anything about India, but yes, there are relations.  There is no break of communion or anything.  The only issue is the disagreement over the primacy of Etchmiadzin.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 08:39:05 PM by Aram »

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,457
  • New Martyrs of Libya pray for us!
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 08:48:02 PM »
Michal,

It's not like the situation in India, where there have been excommunications.  Etchmiadzin and Cilicia are in communion with each other.  This has been discussed before.  If I find the threads, I'll link them.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 08:58:00 PM by Salpy »

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,457
  • New Martyrs of Libya pray for us!
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 08:57:21 PM »
This is one thread where it's been discussed:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28220.msg444980.html#msg444980

Like Aram and I said, we are all still in communion, despite the disagreement over jurisdiction in the diaspora.  In fact, the Catholicos of Cilicia is currently visiting the Catholicos of Etchmiadzin.

http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.jsp?sid=3&nid=1937&y=2011&m=8&d=19

Quote
In the evening of September 18, His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians, welcomed His Holiness Aram I, Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia to Armenia in the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin. His Holiness Aram I, is visiting to participate in the events dedicated to the 20th anniversary of the Independence of Armenia, with the Catholicos of All Armenians.

At the airport, Catholicos Aram I was met by His Eminence Archbishop Grigoris Buniatian, Primate of the Armenian Diocese of the Ukraine, His Eminence Archbishop Komitas Ohanian from the Catholicosate of the Great House of Cilicia, as well as by the Members of the Brotherhood of the Mother See: His Grace Bishop Nathan Hovhannisian, His Grace Bishop Artak Tigranian, Rev. Fr. Mushegh Babayan and Rev. Fr. Mkhitar Grigorian.

Under the ringing of the bells of the Mother Cathedral of Holy Etchmiadzin, the Catholicos of All Armenians and the Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia were led to the Mother Cathedral from the Pontifical Residence, where a Prayer of Thanks was offered in front of the Holy Altar of Descent.




Offline Gisasargavak

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
  • Առէ'ք, Կերէ'ք այս է մարմին իմ:
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 10:43:34 PM »
I thought that while they are officially two different Jurisdictions, the "catholicos" in Antelias recognize the supremacy of the Catholicos in Echmiadzin?

In Prelacy liturgies do they say, "...Dyarn Dyarn Arama Srpaznakuyn Katoghikosin yev prgutyan hokvo norin" instead of saying Garegin?

Offline Gisasargavak

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
  • Առէ'ք, Կերէ'ք այս է մարմին իմ:
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 10:44:21 PM »
I also thought that in America the Archbishop Tourian incident in the 1930's also had to do with the split and why Diocese Armenians will not step foot in Prelacy churches and vice versa.

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 384
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 10:55:27 PM »

In Prelacy liturgies do they say, "...Dyarn Dyarn Arama Srpaznakuyn Katoghikosin yev prgutyan hokvo norin" instead of saying Garegin?
Yes.  In Prelacy churches, they pray for Aram, not Karekin, as they are under the jurisdiction of Antelias.

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 384
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 10:56:14 PM »
I also thought that in America the Archbishop Tourian incident in the 1930's also had to do with the split and why Diocese Armenians will not step foot in Prelacy churches and vice versa.
That's one of the reasons, yes.  And it wasn't just an "incident," it was an assassination.

Offline Gisasargavak

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
  • Առէ'ք, Կերէ'ք այս է մարմին իմ:
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 11:05:08 PM »
I also thought that in America the Archbishop Tourian incident in the 1930's also had to do with the split and why Diocese Armenians will not step foot in Prelacy churches and vice versa.
That's one of the reasons, yes.  And it wasn't just an "incident," it was an assassination.

I am aware that it was an assassination. Didn't want to scandalize catechumens who might be browsing here. :)

As for praying for Aram, that's very interesting. Didn't know that.

Offline ag_vn

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 01:27:29 AM »
There's a few things at work here.

1.  The coexistence of the terms Diocese and Prelacy is really only relevant in North and South America.  The term "Prelacy" is predominantly used to refer to dioceses under the authority of the Catholicosate of Cilicia.  As I understand it, Cilicia has historically overseen the Armenian Church in the general Mideast, which is most of what you see on that list.  "Diocese" is used for dioceses under control of the Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin.  It's an issue of how it's translated into English, really. 

2.  It was not until the mid 1950's (1956?) that Cilicia had formal prelacies in North America.  Though there was an informal break as early as the 1930's, prelacy parishes did not formally go under Cilician control until then.  Hence, in the United States and Canada, there are Eastern and Western Diocese and Prelacies, and a Diocese and Prelacy for Canada.  Many communities have two churches, often within sight of each other.  It's that kind of thing.

Thanks for the reply. Are "Diocese" and "Prelacy" used in English only or there are also different words for them in Armenian?

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,457
  • New Martyrs of Libya pray for us!
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 01:32:16 AM »
I think in Armenian it's the same word, "arachnortaran."

Offline Gisasargavak

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
  • Առէ'ք, Կերէ'ք այս է մարմին իմ:
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 01:40:53 AM »

Thanks for the reply. Are "Diocese" and "Prelacy" used in English only or there are also different words for them in Armenian?

Diocese = թեմ (tem)

Prelacy = առաջնորդարան (arachnortaran)

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,457
  • New Martyrs of Libya pray for us!
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 01:46:13 AM »
Isn't Diocese also Arachnortaran?

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 384
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 10:25:25 AM »
Isn't Diocese also Arachnortaran?
Yes.  Both use Arachnortaran in Armenian.

Offline Shant

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Faith: Armeian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Eastern Prelacy
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2011, 10:55:07 AM »

In Prelacy liturgies do they say, "...Dyarn Dyarn Arama Srpaznakuyn Katoghikosin yev prgutyan hokvo norin" instead of saying Garegin?
Yes.  In Prelacy churches, they pray for Aram, not Karekin, as they are under the jurisdiction of Antelias.

Yes and no. At least in our parish, in the litany following the Trisagion, we pray only for the soul of HH Aram. However, as part of the commemmoration during the Eucharistic prayer, we pray for both HH Karekin and HH Aram, with HH Karekin commemmorated first.

Oh and hi everybody!

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,457
  • New Martyrs of Libya pray for us!
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2011, 08:39:59 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Shant!

Բարի եկաք։

Offline Hiwot

  • Christ is Risen!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,959
  • Job 19:25-27
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2011, 07:15:18 AM »
Selam Shant! Welcome to the Forum dear ;D
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline Shant

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Faith: Armeian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Eastern Prelacy
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2011, 12:49:54 PM »
Thanks (Shnorhagallem - I need to get those Armenian fonts!)

Figured I would start with the easy topics before diving into the Orthodox-Catholic firestorms.  :D

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 02:52:35 PM »
I also thought that in America the Archbishop Tourian incident in the 1930's also had to do with the split and why Diocese Armenians will not step foot in Prelacy churches and vice versa.
That's one of the reasons, yes.  And it wasn't just an "incident," it was an assassination.

I am aware that it was an assassination. Didn't want to scandalize catechumens who might be browsing here. :)

As for praying for Aram, that's very interesting. Didn't know that.

Has there ever been a catechuman of the Armenian Church, on this board?  I can't recall any.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Gisasargavak

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
  • Առէ'ք, Կերէ'ք այս է մարմին իմ:
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2011, 06:06:19 PM »
Has there ever been a catechuman of the Armenian Church, on this board?  I can't recall any.

I was mainly referring to catechumens of other churches - whether EO or OO. :)





Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,457
  • New Martyrs of Libya pray for us!
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 10:17:13 PM »
Thanks (Shnorhagallem - I need to get those Armenian fonts!)

Figured I would start with the easy topics before diving into the Orthodox-Catholic firestorms.  :D



http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28508.0.html

See replies 2 and 7 in that thread for links to fonts.  Having fonts is fun.   :)

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 384
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2011, 12:17:15 AM »
Has there ever been a catechuman of the Armenian Church, on this board?  I can't recall any.
It's extraordinarily rare outside of people marrying an Armenian.  And even in those cases, at least in my experience, a formal "catechuman" stage doesn't really exist in our usual practice.  That's purely anecdotal, of course.

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Question about different types of Armenian dioceses
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2011, 12:33:20 AM »
Has there ever been a catechuman of the Armenian Church, on this board?  I can't recall any.

I was mainly referring to catechumens of other churches - whether EO or OO. :)

I see.

Aram, that's what my impression had been - but I figured that I'd check.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011