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Author Topic: Luke 14:25  (Read 1196 times) Average Rating: 0
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megaa
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« on: September 19, 2011, 10:21:29 PM »

Hi there. 1st time poster here long time viewer. Anyway can somebody please give me the Greek version of Luke 14:25 as in English it says that if you would like to be a desciple of Jesus you must hate your family. I feel that something may of been lost in translation. I should of taken up my uncles offer to accept a Greek bible when I was in Greece however I thought as I understand English better i wouldn't find it handy.

Thank you.
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2011, 10:35:12 PM »

You mean Luke 14:26. Smiley


I recommend Biblos.com, although the page layout isn't that easy to learn, it has several different translations of the bible as well as links to the Greek for individual verses.

I assume it is "hate" you are having issues with. That verse does indeed use the word "hate" (μισος) (More specifically, μισει, the Present Active Indicative third person version of "hate").
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megaa
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2011, 10:39:10 PM »

Therefore nothing was lost in translation as miso is hate which leads me to think why would Jesus say we must hate our family (something that we are most close to and meant to love more than anything else) if we are to be one of his desciples.

This contradicts the teachings of to love your parents and to love everybody including your enemy and neighbour.
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2011, 10:41:46 PM »

My personal interpretation which I've never discussed with someone qualified to tell me off is that we must hold God in such esteem that we must be willing to cast these things off as though we did hate them. Compared to a life in Christ they must be meaningless to us.
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2011, 11:01:55 PM »

Taken from Saint Cyril of Alexandria's Commentary on Luke 14:25-35:

Quote
This lesson then clearly teaches us, what sort of persons He would have us to be. "For whosoever comes unto Me, He says, and hates not his father and his mother, and his wife and his children, and his brethren, and his sisters, yes, and his own self also, cannot be My disciple." 'What then, O Lord, some perchance may say, do You despise the laws of natural affection? Do You command us to hate one another, and to disregard the love that is due to fathers from their sons, to wives from their husbands, to brethren from their brethren? Shall we make those enemies who are members of the same household; and those, whom it is our duty rather to love, must we count as foes, in order that we may be with you, and be able to follow you?'

This is not what the Saviour means. Away with so vain a a thought. For He Who commands even those who are violent enemies to be gentle, and forgiving to all who would do them wrong: for, "Love, He says, your enemies: and pray for them that spoil you:" how could He wish us to hate those who are born of the same family, and to disregard the honour due to parents, and think nothing of despising our brethren; yes! and our own children also, and even our own self? For He, Who has pronounced condemnation even upon those who disregard the law of mutual love, could not wish His friends to cherish a savage, and so to speak, a desperate state of minds. What however He does wish to teach in these commands is plain to those who can understand from what is said in another place expressly upon the same subject. "For he that loves, He says, father or mother more than Me, is not worthy of Me: and he that loves son or daughter more Me, is not worthy of Me." By adding then "more than Me," it is plain that He permits us to love, but not more than we do Him. For He demands for Himself our chief affection; and that very justly: for the love of God in those who are perfect in mind has something in it superior both to the honour due to parents, and to the natural affection felt for children.
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“But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.” +Luke 6:27-29
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 12:58:10 AM »

(something that we are [...] meant to love more than anything else)

I am not saying this to attack you, but to open your mind to the issues: on what basis do you justify the above statement?

"Honour thy father and thy mother" does not go far enough, I think.
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 01:51:56 AM »

Thank you Stephanos for your reply and all who have replied. Stephanos at the risk of sounding rude I must say that theirs a big difference to what Saint Cyril is saying on this topic and what the bible says. In your post Saint Cyril says the following

"For he that loves, He says, father or mother more than Me, is not worthy of Me: and he that loves son or daughter more Me, is not worthy of Me." By adding then "more than Me," it is plain that He permits us to love, but not more than we do Him. "

Should that of been what Luke 14:26 said then it would be understood and a easy passage to comprehend but it goes further than merely saying to put Jesus first and says in no uncertain terms that to come to Jesus you must hate your family members - a big difference between the two.

akimori makoto - in response to your question - the statement was based on my personal opinion as I have always thought family is extremely important. Being brought up in a Greek household I was always taught the importance of having a tight knit family and unconditional love.

I see you are from Australia - may I ask which church you go to ?

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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 03:13:20 AM »

Hi there. 1st time poster here long time viewer. Anyway can somebody please give me the Greek version of Luke 14:25 as in English it says that if you would like to be a desciple of Jesus you must hate your family. I feel that something may of been lost in translation. I should of taken up my uncles offer to accept a Greek bible when I was in Greece however I thought as I understand English better i wouldn't find it handy.

Thank you.

Jesus frequently used the literary figure named "hyperbole" to make a striking point. In this verse He asked His disciples to "hate" not only their parents, but also their own souls.  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2011, 04:45:11 AM »

Selam Smiley

personal interpretation :-

the question is, who would you choose if  and whenthe price of Loving Him becomes losing the affection of your parents?
who would you choose if and when the price of Loving Him becomes losing the love and good opinion of your friends, your brothers, your sisters, your wife,your husband?
who would you choose if and when the price of Loving Him becomes a choice between preserving your life and dying as the martyrs have done?
the Christian life is a life of battle and the enemy has legions with him that are very experienced warriors the weapon they use are the passions that arise as a result of our attachment to ourselves, others, and the natural world. so how are we going to plan the cost of this warfare? when we know it must be that we must be free of all attachments in order to truly Love.
attachments as the word indicates are chains that can be used against us to weaken our will , to stop us from finishing what we have started to build.
He has given us the commandment of Love, a love that works beyond attachment of our own, He said Love your enemies! Pray to those that persecute you! this is a love that knows no attachment, thus it is truly love that will pass the test of all trials because its foundation is the Love of God.
He commanded to hate even ourselves, this is not a literal human hate that he is commanding, rather it is the  turning away from selfish attachment that we have to ourselves, the natural inclination to survive in the face of mortality that encourages us to sin, He wants us to Love so deeply so truly that we will be willing to die to our selfish inclinations and truly be free to truly love under all conditions in a self emptying love.

God is Love! He wants us to Love with out fear, because as the Beloved Apostle says 1John 4:18 'There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.' if we are attached to something or someone even if that someone is ourselves, the fear of losing ourselves in someway will keep us from loving perfectly. if we turn away from all attachments then we are truly free with no fear holding us back from Loving in Truth.
 so we come back to understand what kind of love can we feel to those that are created including ourselves? in order to truly love them and ourselves, we must love God above all and if our attachment to them and ourselves distorts and disregards Truth it is not Love it is not healthy  and we are harming them and ourselves in the end because falsehood will never become Truth no matter what we do. Therefore we must hate everything that keeps us from the Truth, the Way and the Life, because everythingelse is falsehood, leading astray and  its destination is death.
So the One who gave Abraham a son asked him to sacrifice him and Abraham Loved God free of attachments even beyond the Love he had for his beloved Isaac.
So the One who gave the commandment of Love asked us if we relay know what it means to Love without attachment. what it means to Love perfectly.


this is what I  personally understand this passage to mean. I hope others will teach us both more on it.

Selam.
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2011, 04:47:20 AM »

akimori makoto - in response to your question - the statement was based on my personal opinion as I have always thought family is extremely important. Being brought up in a Greek household I was always taught the importance of having a tight knit family and unconditional love.

Thank you for not taking offence at my question.

Yes, family is particularly important to us Greeks. However, the Christian faith is this: love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, and your neighbour as yourself. This commandment is much more challenging than to simply love, treasure and respect our families. Indeed, the Lord tells us that even the unbelievers succeed in loving those who love them back -- we are required to love even our enemies. What a sublime and imperishable treasure our faith is.

While I certainly encourage loving, treasuring and respecting our family members, I am quite on guard against the notion that some people seem to have in their heads that as long as they care for their families and don't commit any major crimes like rape, theft or murder, they are doing okay in the moral realm. As a self-loathing Greek, I have noticed the Greeks fall into this moral trap with regularity (not that I don't fall into my own moral traps with equal regularity -- Lord, have mercy!). "Family values" is no substitute for Christianity.

As far as I understand things, in the passage you are concerned about, the Lord is overstating the truth to make a point: if we put anything before God (even our families), we are not worthy of him. We must smash all idols which keep us from God: even family, if family is an idol for us.

I see you are from Australia - may I ask which church you go to ?

I attend the archdiocesal cathedral at Redfern. And you, brother/sister?
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2011, 11:18:16 AM »

I think the Lord is speaking in anticipation of martyrs & monastics. Martyrs in a situation (for ex.) where a parent would ask their child to renounce Christ and the child must "hate" their unbelief & choose the cross. Monastics who renounce the world & "hate" the idea of procreation & family as an obstacle to a living, lifelong martyrdom of one's self to the cross. Never would there be any actual hatred of one's parents or siblings. Just my 2 cents.
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2011, 12:15:12 PM »

Hi there. 1st time poster here long time viewer. Anyway can somebody please give me the Greek version of Luke 14:25 as in English it says that if you would like to be a desciple of Jesus you must hate your family. I feel that something may of been lost in translation. I should of taken up my uncles offer to accept a Greek bible when I was in Greece however I thought as I understand English better i wouldn't find it handy.

Thank you.

Jesus frequently used the literary figure named "hyperbole" to make a striking point. In this verse He asked His disciples to "hate" not only their parents, but also their own souls.  Wink

People more frequently classify His sayings as being hyperbole, cause otherwise they might make life less than easy.
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2011, 12:18:45 PM »

There is a reason "God parents" oughtn't be from your own "family". The Body of Christ is a new family. Not based on biological and tribal ties and NATIONAL ties, but in a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and His Gospel. The God parents show this new manner of relationship within the Body of Christ.

All those who would stand in between someone and God are to be hated. Milestones, swords and all that.

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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2011, 02:06:53 PM »

Hi there. 1st time poster here long time viewer. Anyway can somebody please give me the Greek version of Luke 14:25 as in English it says that if you would like to be a desciple of Jesus you must hate your family. I feel that something may of been lost in translation. I should of taken up my uncles offer to accept a Greek bible when I was in Greece however I thought as I understand English better i wouldn't find it handy.

Thank you.

I understand the context is that "hate" doesn't mean "hate", but simply to put Christ first and show preference toward Him before anything or anyone else.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2011, 05:22:43 PM »


Jesus frequently used the literary figure named "hyperbole" to make a striking point. In this verse He asked His disciples to "hate" not only their parents, but also their own souls.  Wink

People more frequently classify His sayings as being hyperbole, cause otherwise they might make life less than easy.

What is wrong with Lord's use of hyperboles?  Roll Eyes

If we took all His teachings literally, the world would be full of Christians lacking a hand and an eye.
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2011, 05:36:03 PM »


Jesus frequently used the literary figure named "hyperbole" to make a striking point. In this verse He asked His disciples to "hate" not only their parents, but also their own souls.  Wink

People more frequently classify His sayings as being hyperbole, cause otherwise they might make life less than easy.

What is wrong with Lord's use of hyperboles?  Roll Eyes

If we took all His teachings literally, the world would be full of Christians lacking a hand and an eye.
I agree with both points. If we took all of the teachings literally, I would have feelings of pure disgust for my family and I would definitely have my eyes gouged out.

But if we fall into the realm of identifying certain verses as hyperbole, we may use it to take the easy way out in regard to our faith.

Another annoyingly middle-of-the-road answer.
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2011, 05:58:46 PM »


Jesus frequently used the literary figure named "hyperbole" to make a striking point. In this verse He asked His disciples to "hate" not only their parents, but also their own souls.  Wink

People more frequently classify His sayings as being hyperbole, cause otherwise they might make life less than easy.

What is wrong with Lord's use of hyperboles?  Roll Eyes

If we took all His teachings literally, the world would be full of Christians lacking a hand and an eye.

Do people read my posts? I better start typing more slowly. Read above. I've heard people more frequently use the word hyperbole than it is actually used. Fancy people use stuff like prophetic excess and the like was well.

I won't get into the nuances of that fact literal and figurative are often false dichotomies, especially in Christ's teachings. Usually you can't have one without the other. But let's stay simple.

I said people more frequently classify His sayings as hyperbole than the amount of hyperbolic statements actually used. This is from my experience.

And this ain't one of those hyperbolic times.

Melodist at least gave another reading. Run of the mill hyperbole here would mean something like you should dislike everyone if you want to follow me, or something like that.

There are better names for the trope you are trying to describe.

But again, I'll go with the run of the mill definition of hyperbole and it ain't.
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2011, 07:35:07 PM »

This verse always reminds me of a quote by, I believe, when of the Desert Fathers - an abbot.  It is something along the lines of "If he led me to sin, I would stay away from even my most beloved friends."  I did not do this quote justice, but there is my paraphrase of it.  It boils down to the idea that we should love God so much, that we should love righteousness so much, that we would cast off everything else we love if such things were obscuring God in our lives.
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