OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 19, 2014, 05:20:05 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Baptism, is it for kids?  (Read 704 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
militantsparrow
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 642


militantsparrow
« on: September 20, 2011, 09:42:21 PM »

If two fallen away Orthodox want to have their child baptized, or even one unmarried single woman, can that child be baptized in the Orthodox Church? I ask because in many RCC's you would be turned down. The baby would be left unbabtized because the parents are "unworthy."

I do realize original sin is understood differently in the OC, but how would such a request be handled?
Logged

"Yeah, the sparrow hath found an house..." -Psalm 84:3
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14,697



WWW
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 09:44:47 PM »

I don't think you should assume that about the RCC. I haven't heard about anyone being called 'unworthy' and they certainly don't 'leave infants unbaptized.'
Logged
militantsparrow
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 642


militantsparrow
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 09:49:29 PM »

I don't think you should assume that about the RCC. I haven't heard about anyone being called 'unworthy' and they certainly don't 'leave infants unbaptized.'

With all due respect, Biro, the RCC most certainly does. I know from many personal experiences.
Logged

"Yeah, the sparrow hath found an house..." -Psalm 84:3
TheodoraElizabeth3
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 342


« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 09:53:04 PM »

If two fallen away Orthodox want to have their child baptized, or even one unmarried single woman, can that child be baptized in the Orthodox Church? I ask because in many RCC's you would be turned down. The baby would be left unbabtized because the parents are "unworthy."

I do realize original sin is understood differently in the OC, but how would such a request be handled?

The answer is: depends on the priest.

Seriously. If someone just wants their kid to be baptized because they consider baptism to be some sort of "magic," but don't intend on attending church at all, I know at least some priests that will refuse to baptize the kid. Consider it a "waste of water" (exact quote).

If the kid is not going to be raised in the Orthodox Church, what's the point?

Now, a woman who had the kid out of wedlock, but repented of her behavior? No problem with getting the kid baptized, at least not with my priest.
Logged
militantsparrow
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 642


militantsparrow
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 09:59:41 PM »

If two fallen away Orthodox want to have their child baptized, or even one unmarried single woman, can that child be baptized in the Orthodox Church? I ask because in many RCC's you would be turned down. The baby would be left unbabtized because the parents are "unworthy."

I do realize original sin is understood differently in the OC, but how would such a request be handled?

The answer is: depends on the priest.

Seriously. If someone just wants their kid to be baptized because they consider baptism to be some sort of "magic," but don't intend on attending church at all, I know at least some priests that will refuse to baptize the kid. Consider it a "waste of water" (exact quote).

If the kid is not going to be raised in the Orthodox Church, what's the point?

Now, a woman who had the kid out of wedlock, but repented of her behavior? No problem with getting the kid baptized, at least not with my priest.

Wow. A waste of water? The folks I'm speaking of want more for their child than they're willing to accept themselves. They're not looking for magic. They just want the best for their child dispite their own problems, doubts, etc.
Logged

"Yeah, the sparrow hath found an house..." -Psalm 84:3
TheodoraElizabeth3
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 342


« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 10:05:35 PM »

If two fallen away Orthodox want to have their child baptized, or even one unmarried single woman, can that child be baptized in the Orthodox Church? I ask because in many RCC's you would be turned down. The baby would be left unbabtized because the parents are "unworthy."

I do realize original sin is understood differently in the OC, but how would such a request be handled?

The answer is: depends on the priest.

Seriously. If someone just wants their kid to be baptized because they consider baptism to be some sort of "magic," but don't intend on attending church at all, I know at least some priests that will refuse to baptize the kid. Consider it a "waste of water" (exact quote).

If the kid is not going to be raised in the Orthodox Church, what's the point?

Now, a woman who had the kid out of wedlock, but repented of her behavior? No problem with getting the kid baptized, at least not with my priest.

Wow. A waste of water? The folks I'm speaking of want more for their child than they're willing to accept themselves. They're not looking for magic. They just want the best for their child dispite their own problems, doubts, etc.

I'll repeat - what is the point of having the child baptized if the parents aren't going to raise him in the Church? If the parents aren't willing to raise the child as an Orthodox Christian, do they just think that having the baby baptized will suddenly make him want to be Orthodox when he's a teenager or older? Are they going to just drop the kid off for Sunday School and Liturgy when he's of school age, while they run off to have breakfast at a nearby restaurant and read the newspaper?

My priest is a little more flexible than the "waste of water" priest, but he still requires the parents to come to church for several Sundays in a row before the baptism. As he told me, "I can work with them if they come to Church."

Just dunking a baby thrice doesn't make him a Christian in anything but name. He needs the upbringing and life in the Church to make the baptism a living presence in his life, to actually be a Christian. And if the parents aren't role modeling a Christian life to their child, well, it's very possible he won't live as a Christian.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 10:07:30 PM by TheodoraElizabeth3 » Logged
militantsparrow
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 642


militantsparrow
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 10:23:44 PM »

Because baptism = the first step to salvation. At least how I understand it. my wife and I before we renewed our faith, sought baptism for our first and second child. One Church let us, the others did not. But I believe it was the grace from baptism that eventually worked through our kids that lead us back to the Lord.
Logged

"Yeah, the sparrow hath found an house..." -Psalm 84:3
Seraphim98
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 567



« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 11:10:08 PM »

St. Theophan the Recluse said that if a child will be raised in a devout home, then it should be baptized as an infant. If however, the home is not so devout, he said it is better to wait until the child is four or five and knows a couple of simple prayers and is able to ask for baptism himself.
Logged
militantsparrow
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 642


militantsparrow
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2011, 11:29:09 PM »

My 4 year old thinks he has huge muscles because he does pushups and thinks ... Well I guess I just don't see how a 4 or 5 year old is more equipped than an infant.
Logged

"Yeah, the sparrow hath found an house..." -Psalm 84:3
Seraphim98
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 567



« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2011, 11:37:33 PM »

A young child is capable of understanding that baptism is the way one joins the Church, that by doing so he is saying he wants to be a Christian, and love and serve Christ.

I was raised a Baptist, and baptized at 6 years old.  Of course I didn't understand everything, or any complicated theology. My prayer  life was little more than "Now I lay me down to sleep" and the Lord's Prayer, plus a halting familiarity with  the 23 Psalm, but I knew that Jesus Christ loved me, died for my sins, and wanted me to be with Him in heaven, and that my first step to be a Christian was asking the Lord to forgive me and save me, then getting baptized. 

It is enough a child knows he wants to belong to Jesus…that seems as good a beginning place as any… or so it seems to me.
Logged
militantsparrow
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 642


militantsparrow
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2011, 11:40:29 PM »

Good. But if an understanding by the child is necessary then why give an infant any sacraments?
Logged

"Yeah, the sparrow hath found an house..." -Psalm 84:3
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2011, 11:45:22 PM »

Perhaps wishing to baptise one's child is recognition of a need for salvation. Who knows where such a step could lead? Should a child be denied baptism because of a parent's doubts? Do we ever hinder children from joining with Christ?

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Seraphim98
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 567



« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2011, 11:47:19 PM »

Ultimately, the priest is going to have to weigh in on the matter to make a determination if in the given situation, baptism should proceed.
Logged
TheodoraElizabeth3
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 342


« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2011, 11:52:36 PM »

I googled, and found this - it's from an English-language ROCOR parish - that touches on this exact question:

http://www.saintinnocent.net/baptism.html

Excerpt:

It takes time and effort and spiritual discipline for true Christian formation, and the treasure house of this process is life in the Church. It reveals a very mistaken and distorted understanding of the sacrament when parents or relatives of a child who are not faithfully attending an Orthodox Church seek to present a child for Holy Baptism without expecting themselves or the child to be involved in the Church.

If you are (1) a non-practicing Orthodox parent or (2) a non-practicing Orthodox relative of a child of non-practicing Orthodox parents and you are seeking baptism for the child, we warmly invite you to first begin regularly attending our services and to establish yourself as a member of our community. Baptism is not "magic." It is a sacrament of the Holy Church in which a child is united to life in Christ Jesus our God. Such a life requires spiritual formation. A child presented for Holy Baptism requires and deserves support in this.

The intent here is not to make it difficult for children to be baptized and it should not be interpreted as elitist, for our Savior called children unto Himself and He taught and demonstrated the humility required to enter the Heavenly Kingdom. The intent here is to underscore the significance of Holy Baptism, to honor its sacred intent, and to help assure a child, once baptized, proper continuing support and formation.


And a "mainstream" Antiochian parish:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jJnM6Xd9igYJ:www.stgeorgehouston.com/page.asp%3Fsection%3Dsacramental+should+children+of+non+praciticing+orthodox+be+baptized&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

1. Children presented for Baptism should be children of Orthodox parent(s) who practice the Orthodox Faith and are active in parish life.

2. At least one sponsor (same sex as the one to be presented) is required as a guarantor to the Church that the child will be brought up in the Orthodox Faith. The Godparent must be a practicing Orthodox Christian, in that no one can guarantee something that they do not possess.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 11:56:29 PM by TheodoraElizabeth3 » Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2011, 11:59:29 PM »

^^ While the above is interesting, it is not necessarily the answer that would be given by all Orthodox parishes. Ultimately the answers lies with the particular priest/parish approached.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
TheodoraElizabeth3
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 342


« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 12:03:21 AM »

^^ While the above is interesting, it is not necessarily the answer that would be given by all Orthodox parishes. Ultimately the answers lies with the particular priest/parish approached.



Agreed, but it gives the Latin OP an idea of some of the thinking which lies behind Orthodox who don't baptize everyone who darkens the Church door.
Logged
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2011, 01:26:52 AM »

If two fallen away Orthodox want to have their child baptized, or even one unmarried single woman, can that child be baptized in the Orthodox Church? I ask because in many RCC's you would be turned down. The baby would be left unbabtized because the parents are "unworthy."

I do realize original sin is understood differently in the OC, but how would such a request be handled?

I've heard of babies born out of wedlock being baptized. I'd have to ask my priest on how common it is done or if it is regularly done though.
Logged

Forgive my sins.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.111 seconds with 44 queries.