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Author Topic: ADL concerned about possible Vatican/SSPX Reconciliation  (Read 8322 times) Average Rating: 0
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Marc1152
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« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2011, 04:53:09 PM »

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/6117_62.htm


ADL Urges Vatican To Ensure Anti-Jewish Sect Accepts Teachings Of Vatican II Before They Are Welcomed Back


New York, NY, September 16, 2011 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) urges the Vatican to ensure that a breakaway Catholic sect which teaches anti-Judaism will be required to accept the church's official positive teachings about Jews and Judaism before they are fully accepted back into the Roman Catholic Church...       

 


Firstly, the ADL is bunch of whiners who will accuse everything under the sun of being "anti-Semitic". This is another organization whose criticism I would take as a compliment.

Secondly, imagine if the prayers said something truly anti-Semitic. If they specifically prayed for the Jews not to convert to Catholicism, then the ADL would complain on the basis that such exclusion is anti-Semitic. Either way, they are going to criticize you.

Finally, the idea that Holocaust "denial" is inherently anti-Semitic, is one of the dumbest ideas I know of. Trying to explain the logic behind it, is like trying to explain how 2 +2 = 5. The fact that people are waking up to the truth (and not buying the crap that the media feeds them) behind this absurd horror story has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

Seems like it does Tongue
How so?

People who take up Holocaust denial often appear to also be Anti-Semitic.  If you are willing to massage very well established historical facts, your motivation becomes suspect. 
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« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2011, 04:53:37 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

This is true, but what's your point?
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« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2011, 04:54:16 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

Starvation was also time consuming. Freezing to death took less time. Both were inhumane.
We need to remember that millions of Christians died along side the Jews.
It was genocide.
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« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2011, 04:54:48 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.
What evidence do you have of this?
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« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2011, 04:55:53 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

Starvation was also time consuming. Freezing to death took less time. Both were inhumane.
We need to remember that millions of Christians died along side the Jews.
It was genocide.
What evidence do we have of this?
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« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2011, 04:56:08 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

This is true, but what's your point?

That a great many people were murdered by other means besides the Gas Chamber.
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« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2011, 04:56:27 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

Starvation was also time consuming. Freezing to death took less time. Both were inhumane.
We need to remember that millions of Christians died along side the Jews.
It was genocide.

Is anyone forgetting that?  The Catholic Church has canonized some of them--probably not nearly enough!
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« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2011, 04:57:46 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

This is true, but what's your point?

That a great many people were murdered by other means besides the Gas Chamber.

I believe that's already been well established.
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« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2011, 04:59:18 PM »

A Jewish friend of mine once told me that a quarter of the world was Jewish before the Holocaust.

I think that Abraham's seed has now touched all men - all of us are Jews, truly. All of us have been united to the House of Israel and the Son of Man who was God in the flesh.

But the idea that several hundred million died in the Holocaust? I think my friend did not understand the whole situation.


But I've always heard 4 million as the number, more or less. Anything else is inconsistent with the vast majority of the testimony I've heard.
And where did you hear this testimony?

The whole calculus of "suffering" and evil is sorta sick from the ground up.

Are 4 million better than 6? I dunno. Seems wrong. I ain't no utilitarian or at least try to avoid the Anglo-American pull in that direction.

For historians and the like, these are issues to be sorted out and there should be no magic 6 million number. And I don't see how this gives or robs Jews of "genocide cred".

They like many others were systematically sought out, deprived of property, family, basic humane treatment, and then life on an enormous scale. This cannot be denied.
1.  What evidence do we have even for the 4 million number? What if we find out that the number is really more like 1 million?
2.  What of the countless Catholics, Poles, and Gypsies who were interned in the concentration camps? Why is this portrayed as just a Jewish thing?

Even if it were "more like" one million, it would still have been one million too many. How can we possibly try to quantify human suffering? It is a venture which is fundamentally de-humanizing.
That's not the point of my first question, though. If the original numbers were wrong, how do we know we can trust the current numbers?

That may not have been the point, but that's kind of how it came across.  As for whether or not the original numbers are right or wrong, see my post above.  The Nazis, were, as you know, scrupulous, almost obsessive record keepers.  And, even if your point about trusting past numbers to be able to trust "the current numbers" (not sure what you're  referring to here, but never mind), was clear, to participate in this kind of counting, is, as Cavaradossi wrote, very much fundamentally de-humanizing.

Being the resident expert of all things Germanic and having to have to sit through more discussions on this subject than I care, I can say the Germans were nutz about record keeping.

We also forget they farmed out some of their extermination to less industrious folks like the French.

Again, it certainly was substantial.

But it wasn't just a Jewish thing. Again being the resident expert in all things German this is much more complicated subject.

Also, I have an enormous amount of family gone because of the holocaust and saw how it affected those who "got out" or "survived".

Still the ideology behind National Socialism while anti-Jewish certainly was against many people. The first to go were the mentally retarded (insert PC term), severely mentally ill, etc.

During this beginning of human extermination it should be noted the RC portion of Germany didn't go along and went to great effort to stop the "disappearances" of such undesirables from hospitals / asylums. Too bad the RCC didn't maintain this stance and strength longer.

This is not RCC muck-raking since many of the Orthodox countries were just glad to send their Roma and Jews packing.

A complicated mess. And when reduced to a numbers games outside academia it is disgusting frankly.

EDIT: lol @ Warning - while you were typing 8 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
 
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« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2011, 04:59:37 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

Starvation was also time consuming. Freezing to death took less time. Both were inhumane.
We need to remember that millions of Christians died along side the Jews.
It was genocide.
What evidence do we have of this?

Ever been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.?  Or Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?  Or read any of the vast number of books available that treat the subject of the Holocaust?  I can't help but wonder why you even ask that.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 05:03:42 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2011, 05:01:48 PM »

PeteR,

I thought we were in agreement at first about reducing this to some numbers game on an silly internet board is ridiculous.

Guess it ain't likely we are going to agree on much.

Save, again you are right about the ADL for many of the wrong reasons.

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« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2011, 05:05:16 PM »

In Bishop Williamson's defense, should the ADL's main problem with him be his denial of the holocaust (NOTE: I'm not a holocaust denier, but I do have questions of the official history we've been taught to believe.)...

Since one of the pieces of evidence often cited in defense of the official record is eyewitness accounts, I think this article on the Troy Davis execution in Georgia (scheduled for tomorrow) quite appropriate:

Eyewitness Testimony Often Lies, an op-ed by Laura Wexler of Yale University

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« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2011, 05:06:18 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

Starvation was also time consuming. Freezing to death took less time. Both were inhumane.
We need to remember that millions of Christians died along side the Jews.
It was genocide.
What evidence do we have of this?

Ever been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.?  Or Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?  Or read any of the vast number of books available that treat the subject of the Holocaust?  I can't help but wonder why you even ask that.
Simple. I ask questions.
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« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2011, 05:07:18 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

Starvation was also time consuming. Freezing to death took less time. Both were inhumane.
We need to remember that millions of Christians died along side the Jews.
It was genocide.

Is anyone forgetting that?  The Catholic Church has canonized some of them--probably not nearly enough!


Exactly. Father Maximillian Kolbe is one such Catholic Saint who starved to death along with a lot of other Christians and Jews.

During WWII, thousands of Serbian Orthodox Christians were rounded up with the blessings of the Gestapo, placed in cattle cars, and then pushed off the cliffs at Medjugore. A Catholic author, Davies, wrote that he thought that the so-called Virgin of Medjugore was actually a ghost of one of the Orthodox Christians.

Millions of Russians were killed by the Germans during WWII. There are some martyred Orthodox Christians who were canonized, one of whom was a Russian nun who harbored Jewish children in her orphanage.

And do not forget the Greeks who sacrificed their lives to save Jews. Even Mt. Athos harbored Jews (including women).
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« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2011, 05:11:35 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

The History Department at Duke University, responding to a CODOH ad, unanimously adopted and published a statement noting: "That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly correct; however, what historians do is very different from this advertisement. Historical revision of major events. . . is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather, it concerns their historical interpretation - their causes and consequences generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."


Perhaps most significantly, in December 1991, the governing council of the American Historical Association (AHA), the nation's largest and oldest professional organization for historians, unanimously approved a statement condemning the Holocaust-denial movement, stating, "No serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place." The council's action came in response to a petition circulated among members calling for an official statement against Holocaust-denial propaganda; the petition had been signed by more than 300 members attending the organization's annual conference. Moreover, in 1994, the AHA reaffirmed its position in a press release which stated that "the Association will not provide a forum for views that are, at best, a form of academic fraud."

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly collected testimonies of survivors. However, the Germans themselves left no shortage of documentation and testimony to these events, and no serious scholar has relied solely on survivor testimony as the conclusive word on Holocaust history. Lucy Dawidowicz, in the preface to her authoritative work, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945, wrote, "The German documents captured by the Allied armies at the war's end have provided an incomparable historical record, which, with regard to volume and accessibility, has been unique in the annals of scholarship.... The National Archives and the American Historical Association jointly have published 67 volumes of Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA. For my work I have limited myself mainly to published German documents."26 The author then proceeds to list 303 published sources - excluding periodicals -documenting the conclusions of her research. Among these sources are the writings of recognizable Nazi policy makers such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hoess and Alfred Rosenberg.
Similarly, Raul Hilberg in his three-volume edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, wrote, "Between 1933 and 1945 the public offices and corporate entities of Nazi Germany generated a large volume of correspondence. Some of these documents were destroyed in Allied bombings, and many more were systematically burned in the course of retreats or in anticipation of surrender. Nevertheless, the accumulated paper work of the German bureaucracy was vast enough to survive in significant quantities, and even sensitive folders remained."26
It is thus largely from these primary sources that the history of the Holocaust has been compiled. A new factor in this process is the sudden availability of countless records from the former Soviet Union, many of which had been overlooked or suppressed since their capture at war's end by the Red Army. Needless to say, the modification of specific details in this history is certain to continue for a number of years to come, considering the vastness and complexity of the events which comprise the Holocaust. However, it is equally certain that these modifications will only confirm the Holocaust's enormity, rather than - as the "revisionists" would -call it into question.
Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. In attempting to portray the deaths of millions of Jews as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Holocaust deniers wildly manipulate reference works, almanac statistics, geopolitical data, bedrock historical facts and other sources of information and reportage.
For example, "revisionists" commonly cite various almanac or atlas figures - typically compiled before comprehensive accounts on the Holocaust were available - that appear to indicate that the worldwide Jewish population before and after World War II remained essentially stable, thereby "proving" that 6 million Jews could not have died during this period.

The widely cited "6 million" figure is derived from the initial 1945 Nuremberg trial estimate of 5.7 million deaths; subsequent censuses, statistical analyses, and other demographic studies of European Jewry have consistently demonstrated the essential accuracy of this first tally.27 After nearly 50 years of study, historians agree that approximately 6 million Jews perished during the course of the Nazi genocide.28
In The War Against the Jews, Lucy Dawidowicz offers a country-by-country accounting of Jewish deaths.29



« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 05:12:44 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2011, 05:12:29 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

Starvation was also time consuming. Freezing to death took less time. Both were inhumane.
We need to remember that millions of Christians died along side the Jews.
It was genocide.
What evidence do we have of this?

Ever been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.?  Or Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?  Or read any of the vast number of books available that treat the subject of the Holocaust?  I can't help but wonder why you even ask that.
Simple. I ask questions.

That's an answer that isn't. 

It is good to ask questions.  It is also good to question what we question, and to answer questions that arise from the questions we ask.  So...  What were you trying to get at by asking that particular one?  And have you ever been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.?  Or Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?  Or read any of the vast number of books available that treat the subject of the Holocaust?
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« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2011, 05:13:00 PM »

Ever been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.?  Or Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?  I can't help but wonder why you even ask that.

J (is ok to shorten this?),

The thing that kills me about the Holocaust Museum is that it is in D.C. USA.

WTF? Ever traveled Germany nowadays? You can't turn around without running into a Holocaust memorial. The place where this should a point of interest is making very clear about their history.

Here is where I am WITH Gebre.

Long before we build a "holocaust" museum (remember that was the War where we think we were undisputedly the good guys), we should have built a museum to American Slave Trade that did build Washington DC. Or the genocide of the peoples here before Europeans showed up by the Americans.

I live in a city with the Underground Railroad Freedom Center:

http://www.freedomcenter.org/

Cause Cincinnati was the end of the South and beginning of the North and played an incredible role in the escape of many slaves to the North or Canada, some thought it a great idea to celebrate that and point out America's history in the slave trade.

The county folks (whites) fought tooth and nail against the city (blacks and whites) for it to be built. It's in the past . . . We have to move past all this race stuff . . . etc. And we are talking about a museum celebrating the brave black and white souls who risked their lives to do good.

No one goes. But they will pay $30 a head to see sharks swimming in a tank 1/4 mile away.

IOW. Hat's off to the Germans with their Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung, we in the US should follow suit.

The sooner, the better.

And boy are race relations ******* in this city.
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« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2011, 05:15:15 PM »

PeteR,

I thought we were in agreement at first about reducing this to some numbers game on an silly internet board is ridiculous.
You may like to think we agreed on this, but I never said any such thing.

Save, again you are right about the ADL for many of the wrong reasons.
I don't know that I've ever told you what I think of the ADL or explained my reasons for the way I think.


I also have to think you're still playing with my username to keep from calling me what I want to be called. I do not want to be called PeteR; I want to be called Peter. Please show some respect for my patron saint by calling me only those variants of my username that I permit you to call me.
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« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2011, 05:17:55 PM »

"I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler...I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but none of them in gas chambers."
So, what do you think of this statement from Bp. Williamson? He doesn't deny that Jews died in the concentration camps, which itself is an atrocity. All he denies is that they were executed by the millions in the gas chambers.

Good catch!  Hoettl himself says that 2 million were killed "in other ways..." and I can't see that he said that 4 million were gassed.  Bp. Williamson just could be correct in his statement, as far as the numbers are concerned.  The fact remains, however, that approx. 6 million Jews were murdered, and that it was a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler to rid Europe, if not the entire planet, of all Jews.  You know, "The Final Solution".  Sounds pretty deliberate to me.

Just shooting people proved expensive and cumbersome so they eventually switched to assembly line type extermination camps. They were actually developing ammunition shortages.

Starvation was also time consuming. Freezing to death took less time. Both were inhumane.
We need to remember that millions of Christians died along side the Jews.
It was genocide.

Is anyone forgetting that?  The Catholic Church has canonized some of them--probably not nearly enough!


Exactly. Father Maximillian Kolbe is one such Catholic Saint who starved to death along with a lot of other Christians and Jews.

During WWII, thousands of Serbian Orthodox Christians were rounded up with the blessings of the Gestapo, placed in cattle cars, and then pushed off the cliffs at Medjugore. A Catholic author, Davies, wrote that he thought that the so-called Virgin of Medjugore was actually a ghost of one of the Orthodox Christians.

Millions of Russians were killed by the Germans during WWII. There are some martyred Orthodox Christians who were canonized. one of whom was a Russian nun who harbored Jewish children in her orphanage.

And do not forget the Greeks who sacrificed their lives to save Jews. Even Mt. Athos harbored Jews (including women).

St. Maximillian is very special to me and has been from the moment I first heard of him.  An instant "connection" for lack of a better word.

As for forgetting the Serbs, Greeks, Russians, Germans, Croats, Italians, the Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.---it is not I that is forgetting them.
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« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2011, 05:23:25 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

The History Department at Duke University, responding to a CODOH ad, unanimously adopted and published a statement noting: "That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly correct; however, what historians do is very different from this advertisement. Historical revision of major events. . . is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather, it concerns their historical interpretation - their causes and consequences generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."


Perhaps most significantly, in December 1991, the governing council of the American Historical Association (AHA), the nation's largest and oldest professional organization for historians, unanimously approved a statement condemning the Holocaust-denial movement, stating, "No serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place." The council's action came in response to a petition circulated among members calling for an official statement against Holocaust-denial propaganda; the petition had been signed by more than 300 members attending the organization's annual conference. Moreover, in 1994, the AHA reaffirmed its position in a press release which stated that "the Association will not provide a forum for views that are, at best, a form of academic fraud."

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly collected testimonies of survivors. However, the Germans themselves left no shortage of documentation and testimony to these events, and no serious scholar has relied solely on survivor testimony as the conclusive word on Holocaust history. Lucy Dawidowicz, in the preface to her authoritative work, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945, wrote, "The German documents captured by the Allied armies at the war's end have provided an incomparable historical record, which, with regard to volume and accessibility, has been unique in the annals of scholarship.... The National Archives and the American Historical Association jointly have published 67 volumes of Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA. For my work I have limited myself mainly to published German documents."26 The author then proceeds to list 303 published sources - excluding periodicals -documenting the conclusions of her research. Among these sources are the writings of recognizable Nazi policy makers such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hoess and Alfred Rosenberg.
Similarly, Raul Hilberg in his three-volume edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, wrote, "Between 1933 and 1945 the public offices and corporate entities of Nazi Germany generated a large volume of correspondence. Some of these documents were destroyed in Allied bombings, and many more were systematically burned in the course of retreats or in anticipation of surrender. Nevertheless, the accumulated paper work of the German bureaucracy was vast enough to survive in significant quantities, and even sensitive folders remained."26
It is thus largely from these primary sources that the history of the Holocaust has been compiled. A new factor in this process is the sudden availability of countless records from the former Soviet Union, many of which had been overlooked or suppressed since their capture at war's end by the Red Army. Needless to say, the modification of specific details in this history is certain to continue for a number of years to come, considering the vastness and complexity of the events which comprise the Holocaust. However, it is equally certain that these modifications will only confirm the Holocaust's enormity, rather than - as the "revisionists" would -call it into question.
Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. In attempting to portray the deaths of millions of Jews as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Holocaust deniers wildly manipulate reference works, almanac statistics, geopolitical data, bedrock historical facts and other sources of information and reportage.
For example, "revisionists" commonly cite various almanac or atlas figures - typically compiled before comprehensive accounts on the Holocaust were available - that appear to indicate that the worldwide Jewish population before and after World War II remained essentially stable, thereby "proving" that 6 million Jews could not have died during this period.

The widely cited "6 million" figure is derived from the initial 1945 Nuremberg trial estimate of 5.7 million deaths; subsequent censuses, statistical analyses, and other demographic studies of European Jewry have consistently demonstrated the essential accuracy of this first tally.27 After nearly 50 years of study, historians agree that approximately 6 million Jews perished during the course of the Nazi genocide.28
In The War Against the Jews, Lucy Dawidowicz offers a country-by-country accounting of Jewish deaths.29
IOW, toe the party line of what the establishment wants you to believe, or be branded a heretic. I've seen it before in the sciences, and now I see it in the study of history. Where's the academic freedom in this? Where's the freedom to employ critical thinking and discernment? This isn't a matter of high Christology here.

Personally, I don't know anymore what to believe on the question of the holocaust, but I will no longer stand by and watch those on the periphery of this issue get squelched merely because they have the temerity to question the official record.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 05:29:16 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2011, 05:26:54 PM »

Ever been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.?  Or Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?  I can't help but wonder why you even ask that.

J (is ok to shorten this?),

The thing that kills me about the Holocaust Museum is that it is in D.C. USA.

WTF? Ever traveled Germany nowadays? You can't turn around without running into a Holocaust memorial. The place where this should a point of interest is making very clear about their history.

Here is where I am WITH Gebre.

Long before we build a "holocaust" museum (remember that was the War where we think we were undisputedly the good guys), we should have built a museum to American Slave Trade that did build Washington DC. Or the genocide of the peoples here before Europeans showed up by the Americans.

I live in a city with the Underground Railroad Freedom Center:

http://www.freedomcenter.org/

Cause Cincinnati was the end of the South and beginning of the North and played an incredible role in the escape of many slaves to the North or Canada, some thought it a great idea to celebrate that and point out America's history in the slave trade.

The county folks (whites) fought tooth and nail against the city (blacks and whites) for it to be built. It's in the past . . . We have to move past all this race stuff . . . etc. And we are talking about a museum celebrating the brave black and white souls who risked their lives to do good.

No one goes. But they will pay $30 a head to see sharks swimming in a tank 1/4 mile away.

IOW. Hat's off to the Germans with their Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung, we in the US should follow suit.

The sooner, the better.

And boy are race relations ******* in this city.

"J" is fine Wink.

I don't understand why the Holocaust Museum is in D.C., either, but it is.  Fact of the matter is, too, that although I live only 40+ miles away, I've never been to it.  After living in Israel for 5 years, 4 of them on a kibbutz specifically built by survivors as a living memorial to the holocaust, having served in the I.D.F., and having been to Yad Vashem, I cannot bring myself to go to the museum in D.C.  I can only handle so much heartbreak.

I understand, I believe, your point about slavery, the Underground Railroad, etc.  Perhaps that is something for another thread, as this one, even though we've somewhat digressed, is about, well...about the title of the thread.  Do not misunderstand me though, I am not trying to minimize what you've said.

(By the sound of it, you're probably old enough to know just how fickle people can be.)
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« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2011, 05:29:49 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

The History Department at Duke University, responding to a CODOH ad, unanimously adopted and published a statement noting: "That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly correct; however, what historians do is very different from this advertisement. Historical revision of major events. . . is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather, it concerns their historical interpretation - their causes and consequences generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."


Perhaps most significantly, in December 1991, the governing council of the American Historical Association (AHA), the nation's largest and oldest professional organization for historians, unanimously approved a statement condemning the Holocaust-denial movement, stating, "No serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place." The council's action came in response to a petition circulated among members calling for an official statement against Holocaust-denial propaganda; the petition had been signed by more than 300 members attending the organization's annual conference. Moreover, in 1994, the AHA reaffirmed its position in a press release which stated that "the Association will not provide a forum for views that are, at best, a form of academic fraud."

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly collected testimonies of survivors. However, the Germans themselves left no shortage of documentation and testimony to these events, and no serious scholar has relied solely on survivor testimony as the conclusive word on Holocaust history. Lucy Dawidowicz, in the preface to her authoritative work, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945, wrote, "The German documents captured by the Allied armies at the war's end have provided an incomparable historical record, which, with regard to volume and accessibility, has been unique in the annals of scholarship.... The National Archives and the American Historical Association jointly have published 67 volumes of Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA. For my work I have limited myself mainly to published German documents."26 The author then proceeds to list 303 published sources - excluding periodicals -documenting the conclusions of her research. Among these sources are the writings of recognizable Nazi policy makers such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hoess and Alfred Rosenberg.
Similarly, Raul Hilberg in his three-volume edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, wrote, "Between 1933 and 1945 the public offices and corporate entities of Nazi Germany generated a large volume of correspondence. Some of these documents were destroyed in Allied bombings, and many more were systematically burned in the course of retreats or in anticipation of surrender. Nevertheless, the accumulated paper work of the German bureaucracy was vast enough to survive in significant quantities, and even sensitive folders remained."26
It is thus largely from these primary sources that the history of the Holocaust has been compiled. A new factor in this process is the sudden availability of countless records from the former Soviet Union, many of which had been overlooked or suppressed since their capture at war's end by the Red Army. Needless to say, the modification of specific details in this history is certain to continue for a number of years to come, considering the vastness and complexity of the events which comprise the Holocaust. However, it is equally certain that these modifications will only confirm the Holocaust's enormity, rather than - as the "revisionists" would -call it into question.
Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. In attempting to portray the deaths of millions of Jews as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Holocaust deniers wildly manipulate reference works, almanac statistics, geopolitical data, bedrock historical facts and other sources of information and reportage.
For example, "revisionists" commonly cite various almanac or atlas figures - typically compiled before comprehensive accounts on the Holocaust were available - that appear to indicate that the worldwide Jewish population before and after World War II remained essentially stable, thereby "proving" that 6 million Jews could not have died during this period.

The widely cited "6 million" figure is derived from the initial 1945 Nuremberg trial estimate of 5.7 million deaths; subsequent censuses, statistical analyses, and other demographic studies of European Jewry have consistently demonstrated the essential accuracy of this first tally.27 After nearly 50 years of study, historians agree that approximately 6 million Jews perished during the course of the Nazi genocide.28
In The War Against the Jews, Lucy Dawidowicz offers a country-by-country accounting of Jewish deaths.29
IOW, toe the party line of what the establishment wants you to believe, or be branded a heretic. I've seen it before in the sciences, and now I see it in the study of history. Where's the academic freedom in this? Where's the freedom to employ critical thinking and discernment?

Personally, I don't know anymore what to believe on the question of the holocaust, but I will no longer stand by and watch those on the periphery of this issue get squelched merely because they have the temerity to question the official record.

If you have an "alternative" history that can be independently verified by numerous reliable and respected sources, where is it?
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« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2011, 05:35:57 PM »

Ever been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.?  Or Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?  I can't help but wonder why you even ask that.

J (is ok to shorten this?),

The thing that kills me about the Holocaust Museum is that it is in D.C. USA.

WTF? Ever traveled Germany nowadays? You can't turn around without running into a Holocaust memorial. The place where this should a point of interest is making very clear about their history.

Here is where I am WITH Gebre.

Long before we build a "holocaust" museum (remember that was the War where we think we were undisputedly the good guys), we should have built a museum to American Slave Trade that did build Washington DC. Or the genocide of the peoples here before Europeans showed up by the Americans.

I live in a city with the Underground Railroad Freedom Center:

http://www.freedomcenter.org/

Cause Cincinnati was the end of the South and beginning of the North and played an incredible role in the escape of many slaves to the North or Canada, some thought it a great idea to celebrate that and point out America's history in the slave trade.

The county folks (whites) fought tooth and nail against the city (blacks and whites) for it to be built. It's in the past . . . We have to move past all this race stuff . . . etc. And we are talking about a museum celebrating the brave black and white souls who risked their lives to do good.

No one goes. But they will pay $30 a head to see sharks swimming in a tank 1/4 mile away.

IOW. Hat's off to the Germans with their Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung, we in the US should follow suit.

The sooner, the better.

And boy are race relations ******* in this city.

"J" is fine Wink.

I don't understand why the Holocaust Museum is in D.C., either, but it is.  Fact of the matter is, too, that although I live only 40+ miles away, I've never been to it.  After living in Israel for 5 years, 4 of them on a kibbutz specifically built by survivors as a living memorial to the holocaust, having served in the I.D.F., and having been to Yad Vashem, I cannot bring myself to go to the museum in D.C.  I can only handle so much heartbreak.

I understand, I believe, your point about slavery, the Underground Railroad, etc.  Perhaps that is something for another thread, as this one, even though we've somewhat digressed, is about, well...about the title of the thread.  Do not misunderstand me though, I am not trying to minimize what you've said.

(By the sound of it, you're probably old enough to know just how fickle people can be.)

I was actually trying to connect with a like mind. I don't get into the holocaust Pron myself. The Jewish Museum in Berlin had interesting potential as it traces the history of the Jewish peoples relations with the German peoples.

But it comes off as the new museum "edutainment" way of presentation.

And frankly the whole Libeskind addition is ungodly terrible in its architecture. And not in a good way. Pure schlock.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 05:36:45 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2011, 05:36:38 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

The History Department at Duke University, responding to a CODOH ad, unanimously adopted and published a statement noting: "That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly correct; however, what historians do is very different from this advertisement. Historical revision of major events. . . is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather, it concerns their historical interpretation - their causes and consequences generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."


Perhaps most significantly, in December 1991, the governing council of the American Historical Association (AHA), the nation's largest and oldest professional organization for historians, unanimously approved a statement condemning the Holocaust-denial movement, stating, "No serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place." The council's action came in response to a petition circulated among members calling for an official statement against Holocaust-denial propaganda; the petition had been signed by more than 300 members attending the organization's annual conference. Moreover, in 1994, the AHA reaffirmed its position in a press release which stated that "the Association will not provide a forum for views that are, at best, a form of academic fraud."

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly collected testimonies of survivors. However, the Germans themselves left no shortage of documentation and testimony to these events, and no serious scholar has relied solely on survivor testimony as the conclusive word on Holocaust history. Lucy Dawidowicz, in the preface to her authoritative work, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945, wrote, "The German documents captured by the Allied armies at the war's end have provided an incomparable historical record, which, with regard to volume and accessibility, has been unique in the annals of scholarship.... The National Archives and the American Historical Association jointly have published 67 volumes of Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA. For my work I have limited myself mainly to published German documents."26 The author then proceeds to list 303 published sources - excluding periodicals -documenting the conclusions of her research. Among these sources are the writings of recognizable Nazi policy makers such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hoess and Alfred Rosenberg.
Similarly, Raul Hilberg in his three-volume edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, wrote, "Between 1933 and 1945 the public offices and corporate entities of Nazi Germany generated a large volume of correspondence. Some of these documents were destroyed in Allied bombings, and many more were systematically burned in the course of retreats or in anticipation of surrender. Nevertheless, the accumulated paper work of the German bureaucracy was vast enough to survive in significant quantities, and even sensitive folders remained."26
It is thus largely from these primary sources that the history of the Holocaust has been compiled. A new factor in this process is the sudden availability of countless records from the former Soviet Union, many of which had been overlooked or suppressed since their capture at war's end by the Red Army. Needless to say, the modification of specific details in this history is certain to continue for a number of years to come, considering the vastness and complexity of the events which comprise the Holocaust. However, it is equally certain that these modifications will only confirm the Holocaust's enormity, rather than - as the "revisionists" would -call it into question.
Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. In attempting to portray the deaths of millions of Jews as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Holocaust deniers wildly manipulate reference works, almanac statistics, geopolitical data, bedrock historical facts and other sources of information and reportage.
For example, "revisionists" commonly cite various almanac or atlas figures - typically compiled before comprehensive accounts on the Holocaust were available - that appear to indicate that the worldwide Jewish population before and after World War II remained essentially stable, thereby "proving" that 6 million Jews could not have died during this period.

The widely cited "6 million" figure is derived from the initial 1945 Nuremberg trial estimate of 5.7 million deaths; subsequent censuses, statistical analyses, and other demographic studies of European Jewry have consistently demonstrated the essential accuracy of this first tally.27 After nearly 50 years of study, historians agree that approximately 6 million Jews perished during the course of the Nazi genocide.28
In The War Against the Jews, Lucy Dawidowicz offers a country-by-country accounting of Jewish deaths.29
IOW, toe the party line of what the establishment wants you to believe, or be branded a heretic. I've seen it before in the sciences, and now I see it in the study of history. Where's the academic freedom in this? Where's the freedom to employ critical thinking and discernment? This isn't a matter of high Christology here.

Personally, I don't know anymore what to believe on the question of the holocaust, but I will no longer stand by and watch those on the periphery of this issue get squelched merely because they have the temerity to question the official record.

A sign of a good moderator. Thanks.

Back on topic: I hope the Vatican pays no attention to the ADL, but pays more attention to heretics and incompetent/criminal Catholic priests and bishops, giving them this message: Be truly Orthodox Catholic or find another job.
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« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2011, 05:45:24 PM »

Personally, I don't know anymore what to believe on the question of the holocaust, but I will no longer stand by and watch those on the periphery of this issue get squelched merely because they have the temerity to question the official record.

Periphery?

They are outta the loop. I call BS on the ADL. But the folks here are just out to lunch. Take in their posts on this subject on the board in total.

You ain't defending anyone against some Grand Inquisition.

You are just posing questions which are dealt with in a scholarly manner elsewhere.

They are cut and paste questions I could bring to any discussion. The fact that no reputable information is contained in your posts to add to the counter argument or the others' is telling.

To the OP, I think the ADL can shove it and are detrimental to free speech and inquiry.

But to this tangent come the main thread, no one is offering any arguments other than something like: But how can we REALLY know?

And I know you like to name fallacies. What is the name of the one when a informed opinion changes, say from 6 millions Jews killed to 4.5 million, and one uses that to question if we can trust them at all, since they were wrong in the first place?

Go tell Newton and company that.

Or Xeno, I guess we can't cross a room after all.

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« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2011, 05:51:48 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

The History Department at Duke University, responding to a CODOH ad, unanimously adopted and published a statement noting: "That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly correct; however, what historians do is very different from this advertisement. Historical revision of major events. . . is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather, it concerns their historical interpretation - their causes and consequences generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."


Perhaps most significantly, in December 1991, the governing council of the American Historical Association (AHA), the nation's largest and oldest professional organization for historians, unanimously approved a statement condemning the Holocaust-denial movement, stating, "No serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place." The council's action came in response to a petition circulated among members calling for an official statement against Holocaust-denial propaganda; the petition had been signed by more than 300 members attending the organization's annual conference. Moreover, in 1994, the AHA reaffirmed its position in a press release which stated that "the Association will not provide a forum for views that are, at best, a form of academic fraud."

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly collected testimonies of survivors. However, the Germans themselves left no shortage of documentation and testimony to these events, and no serious scholar has relied solely on survivor testimony as the conclusive word on Holocaust history. Lucy Dawidowicz, in the preface to her authoritative work, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945, wrote, "The German documents captured by the Allied armies at the war's end have provided an incomparable historical record, which, with regard to volume and accessibility, has been unique in the annals of scholarship.... The National Archives and the American Historical Association jointly have published 67 volumes of Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA. For my work I have limited myself mainly to published German documents."26 The author then proceeds to list 303 published sources - excluding periodicals -documenting the conclusions of her research. Among these sources are the writings of recognizable Nazi policy makers such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hoess and Alfred Rosenberg.
Similarly, Raul Hilberg in his three-volume edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, wrote, "Between 1933 and 1945 the public offices and corporate entities of Nazi Germany generated a large volume of correspondence. Some of these documents were destroyed in Allied bombings, and many more were systematically burned in the course of retreats or in anticipation of surrender. Nevertheless, the accumulated paper work of the German bureaucracy was vast enough to survive in significant quantities, and even sensitive folders remained."26
It is thus largely from these primary sources that the history of the Holocaust has been compiled. A new factor in this process is the sudden availability of countless records from the former Soviet Union, many of which had been overlooked or suppressed since their capture at war's end by the Red Army. Needless to say, the modification of specific details in this history is certain to continue for a number of years to come, considering the vastness and complexity of the events which comprise the Holocaust. However, it is equally certain that these modifications will only confirm the Holocaust's enormity, rather than - as the "revisionists" would -call it into question.
Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. In attempting to portray the deaths of millions of Jews as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Holocaust deniers wildly manipulate reference works, almanac statistics, geopolitical data, bedrock historical facts and other sources of information and reportage.
For example, "revisionists" commonly cite various almanac or atlas figures - typically compiled before comprehensive accounts on the Holocaust were available - that appear to indicate that the worldwide Jewish population before and after World War II remained essentially stable, thereby "proving" that 6 million Jews could not have died during this period.

The widely cited "6 million" figure is derived from the initial 1945 Nuremberg trial estimate of 5.7 million deaths; subsequent censuses, statistical analyses, and other demographic studies of European Jewry have consistently demonstrated the essential accuracy of this first tally.27 After nearly 50 years of study, historians agree that approximately 6 million Jews perished during the course of the Nazi genocide.28
In The War Against the Jews, Lucy Dawidowicz offers a country-by-country accounting of Jewish deaths.29
IOW, toe the party line of what the establishment wants you to believe, or be branded a heretic. I've seen it before in the sciences, and now I see it in the study of history. Where's the academic freedom in this? Where's the freedom to employ critical thinking and discernment?

Personally, I don't know anymore what to believe on the question of the holocaust, but I will no longer stand by and watch those on the periphery of this issue get squelched merely because they have the temerity to question the official record.

If you have an "alternative" history that can be independently verified by numerous reliable and respected sources, where is it?
The task of asking questions doesn't require the submission of an alternative point of view. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, so I bear no burden of proof to submit any evidence. I'm just trying to get you to prove your point of view.
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« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2011, 05:53:46 PM »

Or Xeno, I guess we can't cross a room after all.

Cool points for this.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2011, 06:07:42 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

The History Department at Duke University, responding to a CODOH ad, unanimously adopted and published a statement noting: "That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly correct; however, what historians do is very different from this advertisement. Historical revision of major events. . . is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather, it concerns their historical interpretation - their causes and consequences generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."


Perhaps most significantly, in December 1991, the governing council of the American Historical Association (AHA), the nation's largest and oldest professional organization for historians, unanimously approved a statement condemning the Holocaust-denial movement, stating, "No serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place." The council's action came in response to a petition circulated among members calling for an official statement against Holocaust-denial propaganda; the petition had been signed by more than 300 members attending the organization's annual conference. Moreover, in 1994, the AHA reaffirmed its position in a press release which stated that "the Association will not provide a forum for views that are, at best, a form of academic fraud."

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly collected testimonies of survivors. However, the Germans themselves left no shortage of documentation and testimony to these events, and no serious scholar has relied solely on survivor testimony as the conclusive word on Holocaust history. Lucy Dawidowicz, in the preface to her authoritative work, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945, wrote, "The German documents captured by the Allied armies at the war's end have provided an incomparable historical record, which, with regard to volume and accessibility, has been unique in the annals of scholarship.... The National Archives and the American Historical Association jointly have published 67 volumes of Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA. For my work I have limited myself mainly to published German documents."26 The author then proceeds to list 303 published sources - excluding periodicals -documenting the conclusions of her research. Among these sources are the writings of recognizable Nazi policy makers such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hoess and Alfred Rosenberg.
Similarly, Raul Hilberg in his three-volume edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, wrote, "Between 1933 and 1945 the public offices and corporate entities of Nazi Germany generated a large volume of correspondence. Some of these documents were destroyed in Allied bombings, and many more were systematically burned in the course of retreats or in anticipation of surrender. Nevertheless, the accumulated paper work of the German bureaucracy was vast enough to survive in significant quantities, and even sensitive folders remained."26
It is thus largely from these primary sources that the history of the Holocaust has been compiled. A new factor in this process is the sudden availability of countless records from the former Soviet Union, many of which had been overlooked or suppressed since their capture at war's end by the Red Army. Needless to say, the modification of specific details in this history is certain to continue for a number of years to come, considering the vastness and complexity of the events which comprise the Holocaust. However, it is equally certain that these modifications will only confirm the Holocaust's enormity, rather than - as the "revisionists" would -call it into question.
Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. In attempting to portray the deaths of millions of Jews as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Holocaust deniers wildly manipulate reference works, almanac statistics, geopolitical data, bedrock historical facts and other sources of information and reportage.
For example, "revisionists" commonly cite various almanac or atlas figures - typically compiled before comprehensive accounts on the Holocaust were available - that appear to indicate that the worldwide Jewish population before and after World War II remained essentially stable, thereby "proving" that 6 million Jews could not have died during this period.

The widely cited "6 million" figure is derived from the initial 1945 Nuremberg trial estimate of 5.7 million deaths; subsequent censuses, statistical analyses, and other demographic studies of European Jewry have consistently demonstrated the essential accuracy of this first tally.27 After nearly 50 years of study, historians agree that approximately 6 million Jews perished during the course of the Nazi genocide.28
In The War Against the Jews, Lucy Dawidowicz offers a country-by-country accounting of Jewish deaths.29
IOW, toe the party line of what the establishment wants you to believe, or be branded a heretic. I've seen it before in the sciences, and now I see it in the study of history. Where's the academic freedom in this? Where's the freedom to employ critical thinking and discernment?

Personally, I don't know anymore what to believe on the question of the holocaust, but I will no longer stand by and watch those on the periphery of this issue get squelched merely because they have the temerity to question the official record.

If you have an "alternative" history that can be independently verified by numerous reliable and respected sources, where is it?
The task of asking questions doesn't require the submission of an alternative point of view. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, so I bear no burden of proof to submit any evidence. I'm just trying to get you to prove your point of view.

The point of the internet ain't for everyone who basically says that sky is blue to have to prove it.

Typically those who say the sky is red are under the gun.

If you would like, I could go through get at least a couple thousand academic peer reviewed papers for you to read.

But do any of us seriously want to do that? No.

Leave the Agora to those who know how to use it.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PeterTheAleut
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2011, 06:58:37 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

The History Department at Duke University, responding to a CODOH ad, unanimously adopted and published a statement noting: "That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly correct; however, what historians do is very different from this advertisement. Historical revision of major events. . . is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather, it concerns their historical interpretation - their causes and consequences generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."


Perhaps most significantly, in December 1991, the governing council of the American Historical Association (AHA), the nation's largest and oldest professional organization for historians, unanimously approved a statement condemning the Holocaust-denial movement, stating, "No serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place." The council's action came in response to a petition circulated among members calling for an official statement against Holocaust-denial propaganda; the petition had been signed by more than 300 members attending the organization's annual conference. Moreover, in 1994, the AHA reaffirmed its position in a press release which stated that "the Association will not provide a forum for views that are, at best, a form of academic fraud."

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly collected testimonies of survivors. However, the Germans themselves left no shortage of documentation and testimony to these events, and no serious scholar has relied solely on survivor testimony as the conclusive word on Holocaust history. Lucy Dawidowicz, in the preface to her authoritative work, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945, wrote, "The German documents captured by the Allied armies at the war's end have provided an incomparable historical record, which, with regard to volume and accessibility, has been unique in the annals of scholarship.... The National Archives and the American Historical Association jointly have published 67 volumes of Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA. For my work I have limited myself mainly to published German documents."26 The author then proceeds to list 303 published sources - excluding periodicals -documenting the conclusions of her research. Among these sources are the writings of recognizable Nazi policy makers such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hoess and Alfred Rosenberg.
Similarly, Raul Hilberg in his three-volume edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, wrote, "Between 1933 and 1945 the public offices and corporate entities of Nazi Germany generated a large volume of correspondence. Some of these documents were destroyed in Allied bombings, and many more were systematically burned in the course of retreats or in anticipation of surrender. Nevertheless, the accumulated paper work of the German bureaucracy was vast enough to survive in significant quantities, and even sensitive folders remained."26
It is thus largely from these primary sources that the history of the Holocaust has been compiled. A new factor in this process is the sudden availability of countless records from the former Soviet Union, many of which had been overlooked or suppressed since their capture at war's end by the Red Army. Needless to say, the modification of specific details in this history is certain to continue for a number of years to come, considering the vastness and complexity of the events which comprise the Holocaust. However, it is equally certain that these modifications will only confirm the Holocaust's enormity, rather than - as the "revisionists" would -call it into question.
Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. In attempting to portray the deaths of millions of Jews as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Holocaust deniers wildly manipulate reference works, almanac statistics, geopolitical data, bedrock historical facts and other sources of information and reportage.
For example, "revisionists" commonly cite various almanac or atlas figures - typically compiled before comprehensive accounts on the Holocaust were available - that appear to indicate that the worldwide Jewish population before and after World War II remained essentially stable, thereby "proving" that 6 million Jews could not have died during this period.

The widely cited "6 million" figure is derived from the initial 1945 Nuremberg trial estimate of 5.7 million deaths; subsequent censuses, statistical analyses, and other demographic studies of European Jewry have consistently demonstrated the essential accuracy of this first tally.27 After nearly 50 years of study, historians agree that approximately 6 million Jews perished during the course of the Nazi genocide.28
In The War Against the Jews, Lucy Dawidowicz offers a country-by-country accounting of Jewish deaths.29
IOW, toe the party line of what the establishment wants you to believe, or be branded a heretic. I've seen it before in the sciences, and now I see it in the study of history. Where's the academic freedom in this? Where's the freedom to employ critical thinking and discernment?

Personally, I don't know anymore what to believe on the question of the holocaust, but I will no longer stand by and watch those on the periphery of this issue get squelched merely because they have the temerity to question the official record.

If you have an "alternative" history that can be independently verified by numerous reliable and respected sources, where is it?
The task of asking questions doesn't require the submission of an alternative point of view. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, so I bear no burden of proof to submit any evidence. I'm just trying to get you to prove your point of view.

The point of the internet ain't for everyone who basically says that sky is blue to have to prove it.

Typically those who say the sky is red are under the gun.

If you would like, I could go through get at least a couple thousand academic peer reviewed papers for you to read.

But do any of us seriously want to do that? No.

Leave the Agora to those who know how to use it.
Ah, the one who prides himself on sniffing out BS and calling us on it refuses to play the game when someone does the same to him. Can't stand the taste of your own medicine, can you? Wink
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orthonorm
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« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2011, 07:00:15 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

The History Department at Duke University, responding to a CODOH ad, unanimously adopted and published a statement noting: "That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly correct; however, what historians do is very different from this advertisement. Historical revision of major events. . . is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather, it concerns their historical interpretation - their causes and consequences generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."


Perhaps most significantly, in December 1991, the governing council of the American Historical Association (AHA), the nation's largest and oldest professional organization for historians, unanimously approved a statement condemning the Holocaust-denial movement, stating, "No serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place." The council's action came in response to a petition circulated among members calling for an official statement against Holocaust-denial propaganda; the petition had been signed by more than 300 members attending the organization's annual conference. Moreover, in 1994, the AHA reaffirmed its position in a press release which stated that "the Association will not provide a forum for views that are, at best, a form of academic fraud."

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly collected testimonies of survivors. However, the Germans themselves left no shortage of documentation and testimony to these events, and no serious scholar has relied solely on survivor testimony as the conclusive word on Holocaust history. Lucy Dawidowicz, in the preface to her authoritative work, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945, wrote, "The German documents captured by the Allied armies at the war's end have provided an incomparable historical record, which, with regard to volume and accessibility, has been unique in the annals of scholarship.... The National Archives and the American Historical Association jointly have published 67 volumes of Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA. For my work I have limited myself mainly to published German documents."26 The author then proceeds to list 303 published sources - excluding periodicals -documenting the conclusions of her research. Among these sources are the writings of recognizable Nazi policy makers such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hoess and Alfred Rosenberg.
Similarly, Raul Hilberg in his three-volume edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, wrote, "Between 1933 and 1945 the public offices and corporate entities of Nazi Germany generated a large volume of correspondence. Some of these documents were destroyed in Allied bombings, and many more were systematically burned in the course of retreats or in anticipation of surrender. Nevertheless, the accumulated paper work of the German bureaucracy was vast enough to survive in significant quantities, and even sensitive folders remained."26
It is thus largely from these primary sources that the history of the Holocaust has been compiled. A new factor in this process is the sudden availability of countless records from the former Soviet Union, many of which had been overlooked or suppressed since their capture at war's end by the Red Army. Needless to say, the modification of specific details in this history is certain to continue for a number of years to come, considering the vastness and complexity of the events which comprise the Holocaust. However, it is equally certain that these modifications will only confirm the Holocaust's enormity, rather than - as the "revisionists" would -call it into question.
Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. In attempting to portray the deaths of millions of Jews as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Holocaust deniers wildly manipulate reference works, almanac statistics, geopolitical data, bedrock historical facts and other sources of information and reportage.
For example, "revisionists" commonly cite various almanac or atlas figures - typically compiled before comprehensive accounts on the Holocaust were available - that appear to indicate that the worldwide Jewish population before and after World War II remained essentially stable, thereby "proving" that 6 million Jews could not have died during this period.

The widely cited "6 million" figure is derived from the initial 1945 Nuremberg trial estimate of 5.7 million deaths; subsequent censuses, statistical analyses, and other demographic studies of European Jewry have consistently demonstrated the essential accuracy of this first tally.27 After nearly 50 years of study, historians agree that approximately 6 million Jews perished during the course of the Nazi genocide.28
In The War Against the Jews, Lucy Dawidowicz offers a country-by-country accounting of Jewish deaths.29
IOW, toe the party line of what the establishment wants you to believe, or be branded a heretic. I've seen it before in the sciences, and now I see it in the study of history. Where's the academic freedom in this? Where's the freedom to employ critical thinking and discernment?

Personally, I don't know anymore what to believe on the question of the holocaust, but I will no longer stand by and watch those on the periphery of this issue get squelched merely because they have the temerity to question the official record.

If you have an "alternative" history that can be independently verified by numerous reliable and respected sources, where is it?
The task of asking questions doesn't require the submission of an alternative point of view. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, so I bear no burden of proof to submit any evidence. I'm just trying to get you to prove your point of view.

The point of the internet ain't for everyone who basically says that sky is blue to have to prove it.

Typically those who say the sky is red are under the gun.

If you would like, I could go through get at least a couple thousand academic peer reviewed papers for you to read.

But do any of us seriously want to do that? No.

Leave the Agora to those who know how to use it.
Ah, the one who prides himself on sniffing out BS and calling us on it refuses to play the game when someone does the same to him. Can't stand the taste of your own medicine, can you? Wink

Again with not reading the posts.

Hoi polloi have made their decision. I stick with them.
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PeterTheAleut
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2011, 07:08:15 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

The History Department at Duke University, responding to a CODOH ad, unanimously adopted and published a statement noting: "That historians are constantly engaged in historical revision is certainly correct; however, what historians do is very different from this advertisement. Historical revision of major events. . . is not concerned with the actuality of these events; rather, it concerns their historical interpretation - their causes and consequences generally. There is no debate among historians about the actuality of the Holocaust... there can be no doubt that the Nazi state systematically put to death millions of Jews, Gypsies, political radicals and other people."


Perhaps most significantly, in December 1991, the governing council of the American Historical Association (AHA), the nation's largest and oldest professional organization for historians, unanimously approved a statement condemning the Holocaust-denial movement, stating, "No serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place." The council's action came in response to a petition circulated among members calling for an official statement against Holocaust-denial propaganda; the petition had been signed by more than 300 members attending the organization's annual conference. Moreover, in 1994, the AHA reaffirmed its position in a press release which stated that "the Association will not provide a forum for views that are, at best, a form of academic fraud."

Another frequent claim of Holocaust "revisionists" concerns what they describe as the lack of objective documentation proving the facts of the Holocaust, and the reliance by scholars on biased and poorly collected testimonies of survivors. However, the Germans themselves left no shortage of documentation and testimony to these events, and no serious scholar has relied solely on survivor testimony as the conclusive word on Holocaust history. Lucy Dawidowicz, in the preface to her authoritative work, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945, wrote, "The German documents captured by the Allied armies at the war's end have provided an incomparable historical record, which, with regard to volume and accessibility, has been unique in the annals of scholarship.... The National Archives and the American Historical Association jointly have published 67 volumes of Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria, VA. For my work I have limited myself mainly to published German documents."26 The author then proceeds to list 303 published sources - excluding periodicals -documenting the conclusions of her research. Among these sources are the writings of recognizable Nazi policy makers such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hoess and Alfred Rosenberg.
Similarly, Raul Hilberg in his three-volume edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, wrote, "Between 1933 and 1945 the public offices and corporate entities of Nazi Germany generated a large volume of correspondence. Some of these documents were destroyed in Allied bombings, and many more were systematically burned in the course of retreats or in anticipation of surrender. Nevertheless, the accumulated paper work of the German bureaucracy was vast enough to survive in significant quantities, and even sensitive folders remained."26
It is thus largely from these primary sources that the history of the Holocaust has been compiled. A new factor in this process is the sudden availability of countless records from the former Soviet Union, many of which had been overlooked or suppressed since their capture at war's end by the Red Army. Needless to say, the modification of specific details in this history is certain to continue for a number of years to come, considering the vastness and complexity of the events which comprise the Holocaust. However, it is equally certain that these modifications will only confirm the Holocaust's enormity, rather than - as the "revisionists" would -call it into question.
Another frequent "revisionist" assertion calls into question the generally accepted estimates of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. In attempting to portray the deaths of millions of Jews as an exaggeration or a fabrication, Holocaust deniers wildly manipulate reference works, almanac statistics, geopolitical data, bedrock historical facts and other sources of information and reportage.
For example, "revisionists" commonly cite various almanac or atlas figures - typically compiled before comprehensive accounts on the Holocaust were available - that appear to indicate that the worldwide Jewish population before and after World War II remained essentially stable, thereby "proving" that 6 million Jews could not have died during this period.

The widely cited "6 million" figure is derived from the initial 1945 Nuremberg trial estimate of 5.7 million deaths; subsequent censuses, statistical analyses, and other demographic studies of European Jewry have consistently demonstrated the essential accuracy of this first tally.27 After nearly 50 years of study, historians agree that approximately 6 million Jews perished during the course of the Nazi genocide.28
In The War Against the Jews, Lucy Dawidowicz offers a country-by-country accounting of Jewish deaths.29
IOW, toe the party line of what the establishment wants you to believe, or be branded a heretic. I've seen it before in the sciences, and now I see it in the study of history. Where's the academic freedom in this? Where's the freedom to employ critical thinking and discernment?

Personally, I don't know anymore what to believe on the question of the holocaust, but I will no longer stand by and watch those on the periphery of this issue get squelched merely because they have the temerity to question the official record.

If you have an "alternative" history that can be independently verified by numerous reliable and respected sources, where is it?
The task of asking questions doesn't require the submission of an alternative point of view. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, so I bear no burden of proof to submit any evidence. I'm just trying to get you to prove your point of view.

The point of the internet ain't for everyone who basically says that sky is blue to have to prove it.

Typically those who say the sky is red are under the gun.

If you would like, I could go through get at least a couple thousand academic peer reviewed papers for you to read.

But do any of us seriously want to do that? No.

Leave the Agora to those who know how to use it.
Ah, the one who prides himself on sniffing out BS and calling us on it refuses to play the game when someone does the same to him. Can't stand the taste of your own medicine, can you? Wink

Again with not reading the posts.

Hoi polloi have made their decision. I stick with them.
Well, please forgive me if I decide to break from the herd. (I never was much of a herd animal.)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 07:09:21 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #76 on: September 20, 2011, 07:18:00 PM »

Too alike. :-)
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #77 on: September 20, 2011, 07:20:37 PM »

Too alike. :-)
Well, I suppose when it comes to challenging others to employ critical thinking skills, orthonorm and I are quite a bit alike. I just try not to worship ANY sacred cows. Grin
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 07:20:48 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #78 on: September 20, 2011, 07:22:40 PM »

Too alike. :-)
Well, I suppose when it comes to challenging others to employ critical thinking skills, orthonorm and I are quite a bit alike. I just try not to worship ANY sacred cows. Grin

Please, your questions are empty. Mine are loaded.

Keeping reading and you will learn. But you might be too old to my Alcibiades anymore.
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« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2011, 07:24:48 PM »

Well, please forgive me if I decide to break from the herd. (I never was much of a herd animal.)

Seem to be following most of the herd here . . . oh forget it.

Might as well give you something to brilliantly question.

A Jew died at least once.

Now ask how I know.

lulz.
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« Reply #80 on: September 20, 2011, 07:36:53 PM »

Well, please forgive me if I decide to break from the herd. (I never was much of a herd animal.)

Seem to be following most of the herd here . . . oh forget it.

Might as well give you something to brilliantly question.

A Jew died at least once.

Now ask how I know.

lulz.

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« Reply #81 on: September 20, 2011, 07:58:20 PM »

Returning to the topic as addressed by the OP.

I can see why the ADL is concerned about SSPX /Vatican reconciliation.

Whereas the Vatican made changes in the Holy Week Services, the SSPX has not done so, but continues to use the prayers for the "perfidious Jews."

Has the Vatican insisted that the SSPX edit their Holy Week books to remove these prayers that offend Jews?

(Is there a thread or should we start a thread to address the Orthodox prayers for the Jews or references to the Jews that concern the death of Christ? Should Jews and/or the ADL determine how we Orthodox Christians pray or conduct our Holy Week services?)



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« Reply #82 on: September 20, 2011, 08:30:50 PM »

Ever been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.?  Or Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?  I can't help but wonder why you even ask that.

J (is ok to shorten this?),

The thing that kills me about the Holocaust Museum is that it is in D.C. USA.

WTF? Ever traveled Germany nowadays? You can't turn around without running into a Holocaust memorial. The place where this should a point of interest is making very clear about their history.

Here is where I am WITH Gebre.

Long before we build a "holocaust" museum (remember that was the War where we think we were undisputedly the good guys), we should have built a museum to American Slave Trade that did build Washington DC. Or the genocide of the peoples here before Europeans showed up by the Americans.

I live in a city with the Underground Railroad Freedom Center:

http://www.freedomcenter.org/

Cause Cincinnati was the end of the South and beginning of the North and played an incredible role in the escape of many slaves to the North or Canada, some thought it a great idea to celebrate that and point out America's history in the slave trade.

The county folks (whites) fought tooth and nail against the city (blacks and whites) for it to be built. It's in the past . . . We have to move past all this race stuff . . . etc. And we are talking about a museum celebrating the brave black and white souls who risked their lives to do good.

No one goes. But they will pay $30 a head to see sharks swimming in a tank 1/4 mile away.

IOW. Hat's off to the Germans with their Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung, we in the US should follow suit.

The sooner, the better.

And boy are race relations ******* in this city.


Millions of dollars were spent building a New Museum and visitors center at Gettysburg. In fact monuments and museums to the events of the Civil War are everywhere around here. And yes there are also museums focused just on Slavery.  You guys need to get out more.

Oh and the American Indian Museum is just around the block from the Holocaust museum.. ditto comment above

Oh and the MLK Monument is being dedicated in a week or two. Hotels are filling up to overflow..double ditto
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« Reply #83 on: September 20, 2011, 08:38:45 PM »

Ummm...Huh ?

Anyway, there is no scholarly debate about the essential events of or the numbers killed in the Holocaust. No serious scholar thinks otherwise. The entire community of credentialed Historians thinks Holocaust denial and its variations (it occurred but just a few were really killed) is a fraud. The events and the numbers are very well documented. The Germans have a habit of being thorough. They documented everything.   

Questions?
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« Reply #84 on: September 20, 2011, 08:45:11 PM »

Ummm...Huh ?

Anyway, there is no scholarly debate about the essential events of or the numbers killed in the Holocaust. No serious scholar thinks otherwise. The entire community of credentialed Historians thinks Holocaust denial and its variations (it occurred but just a few were really killed) is a fraud. The events and the numbers are very well documented. The Germans have a habit of being thorough. They documented everything.  

Questions?
IOW, appeal to authority and threat of anathema to those who don't preach the accepted dogma, but appeal to authority is no substitute for actually posting some of those documents here for us to see them.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 08:53:54 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #85 on: September 20, 2011, 09:45:59 PM »

Ummm...Huh ?

Anyway, there is no scholarly debate about the essential events of or the numbers killed in the Holocaust. No serious scholar thinks otherwise. The entire community of credentialed Historians thinks Holocaust denial and its variations (it occurred but just a few were really killed) is a fraud. The events and the numbers are very well documented. The Germans have a habit of being thorough. They documented everything.  

Questions?
IOW, appeal to authority and threat of anathema to those who don't preach the accepted dogma, but appeal to authority is no substitute for actually posting some of those documents here for us to see them.

Oh okay..Well..crack open a book by someone who knows what they are talking about and then take a shot.

All I can tell you is that the issue is settled among scholars with a reputation to protect backed by voluminous documentation. But feel free to beleive whatever floats your boat.  
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 09:46:42 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: September 20, 2011, 09:48:03 PM »

Here you go. I have culled out a few of the most pertinent statements to answer questions here about evidence for the existence and size of the Holocaust but it would be best to read the whole article. Here is the link:  

 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

You are quoting a pretty biased source.
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« Reply #87 on: September 20, 2011, 09:50:08 PM »

This thread has gotten weird.

 Tongue

You have the right to your opinions. I have the right to mine.

Mine is, this thread is weird.
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« Reply #88 on: September 20, 2011, 09:59:44 PM »

Ummm...Huh ?

Anyway, there is no scholarly debate about the essential events of or the numbers killed in the Holocaust. No serious scholar thinks otherwise. The entire community of credentialed Historians thinks Holocaust denial and its variations (it occurred but just a few were really killed) is a fraud. The events and the numbers are very well documented. The Germans have a habit of being thorough. They documented everything.  

Questions?
IOW, appeal to authority and threat of anathema to those who don't preach the accepted dogma, but appeal to authority is no substitute for actually posting some of those documents here for us to see them.

I'm just curious why you would rely on internet chatboards to educate you about history.
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« Reply #89 on: September 20, 2011, 10:35:11 PM »

Real Pope, real talk.

(or)

I'll just leave that here...

Seriously, the Vatican is freaking weak towards the Jews, Muslims, and all the other Christ-deniers. I should hope that if Benedict is serious he won't demand that the SPPX bend to the complaints of the ADL. Prayers for the conversion of the Jews is not wrong. What the heck else would they ever expect their relations with any Christian church to center around? How much we all like bagels? (I do love me a good bagel...)

And all this holocaust business...I'm pretty sure that we were around for nearly 2000 years before Hitler was even born, so that's a non-issue. See how it just gets people riled up? People who can otherwise get along fine...?  Undecided I think that certain agitators and interest groups like the ADL feed off that. Don't fall for it.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 10:35:40 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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