Author Topic: To all the “bootstraps,” “self-made men,” and “self-sufficient souls”  (Read 3590 times)

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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To all the “bootstraps,” “self-made men,” and “self-sufficient souls”:
 
Congratulations on your success! I applaud your hard work and industrious spirit. You should be very proud. Not everyone possesses your intellectual prowess, your physical health, or your emotional and mental stability. So be proud that you are better than those of us who are so weak and dependent. Be proud that someone loved and cared enough to teach you early on to work hard, study hard, and make the most of your innate talents and abilities. Be proud that you are better than those lazy miscreants who were born into less nurturing environments. Be proud that you have never had to ask for a handout, because you always had the abundant support of invisible arms that enabled you to endure and achieve. Be proud that you need neither the government nor God; for you are blessed not to be crippled, and therefore you have the luxury of scoffing at such crutches. Be proud that you don’t have to deal with those irritating pangs of conscience that prick the rest of us when we pass by the homeless, the hungry, and the destitute; for you know that it’s their own damn fault. If they had simply been as well-born, well-nurtured, and well supported as you had, then they wouldn’t be out on the street hassling you.
 
So be proud of your self-sufficiency. Be proud that you did it all by yourself. I am truly amazed at your accomplishments; because as for myself, I am desperately dependent upon others.
         
I am dependent upon those who pick up my garbage; those who keep water flowing to my house; those who supply food to my local grocery store; those who make the clothes that I wear; those who grow the coffee that I drink; those who teach my children Sunday School; those who conduct the Divine Liturgy; those who worship with me and pray for me; those who love me, listen to me, and befriend me; those who give of their time, their love, and their money so that I can not only live but also live a life that’s worth living. Indeed, I am desperately dependent upon my God and my world.
 
I confess that I am no “self-made man,” no “self-sufficient soul”. No, not this sinner. I cannot boast of such a thing. I am far too reliant upon my family, my friends, and my Lord. There is nothing that I could do by myself, on my own- other than sin.
 
I remember the time I put on a pair of boots and tried with all my might to pull myself up by the straps. I promise you – and you may not believe this – but it’s impossible! Really! I mean, I tried and tried, but I could not do it! But then again, that was only my own personal experience. Apparently there are people who do it all the time. They tell me it’s possible, but I’ve yet to see it actually happen. I’ve heard a lot about these “bootstrap” people, but I haven’t met one yet. But then again, I haven’t been to the circus in years.
 
 
Selam, -GMK-
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

Offline akimori makoto

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Gebre, I agree with much of what you've said here. I've often said that the Lord wills us to be born dependent and die dependent to teach us the lesson of our interconnectedness, so I am very much with you in your diagnosis of the human condition.

My question to you is -- does it necessarily follow from what you've said that State-sponsored, coercive redistribution of income is the best answer in this fallen world of ours?
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Gebre, I agree with much of what you've said here. I've often said that the Lord wills us to be born dependent and die dependent to teach us the lesson of our interconnectedness, so I am very much with you in your diagnosis of the human condition.

My question to you is -- does it necessarily follow from what you've said that State-sponsored, coercive redistribution of income is the best answer in this fallen world of ours?



No, it does not follow. And I don't think anything I have written here would indicate such. I do not hesitate to criticize capitalism, but I am no advocate of socialism either. The systems of secular societies are all based upon the idolatry of the individual. Conservatism says, "You can do it on your own without any help from the government. You are an autonomous creature!" Liberalism says, "You are owed, you deserve, etc."

I draw tend to draw the ire of the both the left and the right, because I condemn these secular philosophies and try my best to align my thinking with the Gospel. And our Christian Faith teaches us that we are our brother's keeper, that we are accountable for our own sins, that we have a God Who is with us always, that there is no shame in confessing our need, that there is shame in ignoring the needs of our neighbors, that to whom much is given much is required, that we are to be faithful stewards of the talents we are given... Thus, as far as I can tell, the Gospel contradicts the intransigent agendas of both the left and the right.


"Lord have mercy."


Selam
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

Offline akimori makoto

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I didn't mean to accuse you of holding any particular view, I was more asking the question for the sake of discussion.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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I didn't mean to accuse you of holding any particular view, I was more asking the question for the sake of discussion.


No worries my friend. I didn't take it as an accusation. It is indeed a worthwhile discussion to have.


Selam
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

Offline LBK

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Self-made men are, all too often, glaring examples of unskilled labor.  :laugh:
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Offline primuspilus

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Self-made men are, all too often, glaring examples of unskilled labor.  :laugh:
Well, nothing like a smug, arrogant response to start my day.

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Offline Justin Kissel

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« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 02:03:07 PM by Asteriktos »
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Offline vamrat

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Self-made men are, all too often, glaring examples of unskilled labor.  :laugh:
Well, nothing like a smug, arrogant response to start my day.

PP

In LBK's defense, unskilled laborers show many of the traits of self-made men.  They have no advantages in this world, but still they work.  Theirs' is not the lot of the coddled state dependent.  They rely on themselves for their keep.  I have known many people flipping burgers, stocking shelves, and guarding banks who made their own way in life without complaint.  Many of the people I looked up to most when I was in high school and college were lower echelons, dregs of society.  They were uneducated, often felons, drug users, and bastards.  But they had a sense of pride an honour.  They could rely on no one in this world, but were always people you could rely on.  And the faith you could find in these people.  Rather fitting I would think, seeing as that our Lord was a carpenter who hung around thieves, whores, and tax collectors...not to mention unskilled laborers like fishermen.  Oh, and His cousin was technically a bum.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline IsmiLiora

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Self-made men are, all too often, glaring examples of unskilled labor.  :laugh:
Well, nothing like a smug, arrogant response to start my day.

PP

In LBK's defense, unskilled laborers show many of the traits of self-made men.  They have no advantages in this world, but still they work.  Theirs' is not the lot of the coddled state dependent.  They rely on themselves for their keep.  I have known many people flipping burgers, stocking shelves, and guarding banks who made their own way in life without complaint.  Many of the people I looked up to most when I was in high school and college were lower echelons, dregs of society.  They were uneducated, often felons, drug users, and bastards.  But they had a sense of pride an honour.  They could rely on no one in this world, but were always people you could rely on.  And the faith you could find in these people.  Rather fitting I would think, seeing as that our Lord was a carpenter who hung around thieves, whores, and tax collectors...not to mention unskilled laborers like fishermen.  Oh, and His cousin was technically a bum.
Loves ya. Darn straight, I say.

When I first read LBK's statement, I actually didn't see it as an insult, as those unskilled laborers (many of them immigrants) break their backs to feed their families on the meager wages that they earn. Like Vamrat, I admire their work ethic (of course, those that work hard) -- in many of their cases they had to drop out of school to work for their families, had undiagnosed learning disabilities and weren't able to succeed in college, came from another country and didn't know enough English to perform complex work tasks, or just liked working with their hands.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 02:32:46 PM by IsmiLiora »
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline primuspilus

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Meh...
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Offline IsmiLiora

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LBK may have very well meant it to be an insult, but i guess we all read things differently.
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline primuspilus

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If he did, then my original response I stand by. If it was a joke or not meant that way, then I apologize.

PP
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Offline Iconodule

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It was just a funny quip and it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Chill.

The truth is there's no such thing as self-made men and people claiming to be such do tend to be delusional.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 02:57:41 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Heorhij

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I might be viewed to a certain extent a "self-made man," because I came to the USA penniless, was initially paid very little, lived in horrible apartments with unemployed refugees and prostitutes as neighbors, etc., and yet progressed from a fellow-trainee to a tenured university professor. However, I absolutely KNOW that if I did not bring with me my "elitist" Soviet education, I would NEVER make it here in the USA. Therefore, I do depend on a large number of people, alive and dead, who encouraged me to learn, taught me, excited me about learning, instilled some work ethic in me.
Love never fails.

Offline IsmiLiora

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It was just a funny quip and it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Chill.

The truth is there's no such thing as self-made men and people claiming to be such do tend to be delusional.
I do agree, although there are some that are more or less dependent than others. :)
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline genesisone

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The truth is there's no such thing as self-made men and people claiming to be such do tend to be delusional.
Be thankful they're not blaming God for how they turned out.

Offline Iconodule

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The truth is there's no such thing as self-made men and people claiming to be such do tend to be delusional.
Be thankful they're not blaming God for how they turned out.

The first "self-made man" blamed both God and his wife.
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Offline augustin717

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Self-made men are, all too often, glaring examples of unskilled labor.  :laugh:
Well, nothing like a smug, arrogant response to start my day.

PP

In LBK's defense, unskilled laborers show many of the traits of self-made men.  They have no advantages in this world, but still they work.  Theirs' is not the lot of the coddled state dependent.  They rely on themselves for their keep.  I have known many people flipping burgers, stocking shelves, and guarding banks who made their own way in life without complaint.  Many of the people I looked up to most when I was in high school and college were lower echelons, dregs of society.  They were uneducated, often felons, drug users, and bastards.  But they had a sense of pride an honour.  They could rely on no one in this world, but were always people you could rely on.  And the faith you could find in these people.  Rather fitting I would think, seeing as that our Lord was a carpenter who hung around thieves, whores, and tax collectors...not to mention unskilled laborers like fishermen.  Oh, and His cousin was technically a bum.
Loves ya. Darn straight, I say.

When I first read LBK's statement, I actually didn't see it as an insult, as those unskilled laborers (many of them immigrants) break their backs to feed their families on the meager wages that they earn. Like Vamrat, I admire their work ethic (of course, those that work hard) -- in many of their cases they had to drop out of school to work for their families, had undiagnosed learning disabilities and weren't able to succeed in college, came from another country and didn't know enough English to perform complex work tasks, or just liked working with their hands.
How neat those immigrants are!

Offline IsmiLiora

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Yeah, like my parents::)

ETA: Augustin, I see where you are coming from with your ideas, but if you want to throw down with race, family history and financial status, etc., I can hold my own there, not that this stupid privilege P****** contest matters. I have all rights to respect my parents and others like them, although I have had it easier with a college education and them supporting me.

ETA: Whoops, forgot this was a moderated board.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 04:54:15 PM by IsmiLiora »
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Offline genesisone

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The truth is there's no such thing as self-made men and people claiming to be such do tend to be delusional.
Be thankful they're not blaming God for how they turned out.

The first "self-made man" blamed both God and his wife.
But did he actually say, "I am a self-made man", which is how I was understanding the use in this thread.

Offline Shanghaiski

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It was just a funny quip and it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Chill.

The truth is there's no such thing as self-made men and people claiming to be such do tend to be delusional.

Most Americans do qualify as being in some form of prelest.
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Offline Heorhij

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It was just a funny quip and it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Chill.

The truth is there's no such thing as self-made men and people claiming to be such do tend to be delusional.

Most Americans do qualify as being in some form of prelest.

Don't we all?
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Offline Shiny

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Applause.

Can someone give me the original thread from whence this thread was created? I forgot it but I'm sure it was a good discussion. Probably invoked the Ukraine somewhere.

As far as self-made. I can only speak for myself because it's scary as hell with no safety net. Sure I have my parents to fall back on if crap hits the fan, but as of right now I have no help and am actually supporting someone in the meantime.

I know nothing of the boot-strap mentality. I was born with a silver spoon and got away with too much.

But I think it was that one thread where GiC's father worked his way up to provide a life for his family and used it against him as some sort of motivation.
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Offline JamesR

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What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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I know this is an old thread.  But I don't entirely agree with the conviction in the OP.

Some people are "self made", and that doesn't meant that they were given the silver spoon.
Some people are "self-made", who worked hard, studied hard, and tried hard to better themselves.
Some people are "self-made", that don't consider themselves "self-sufficient souls" and know they need God.

Look, frankly, I bust my tail end outside all the time.   I don't know if I would consider myself "self made".   I don't know if I would say "I depend on others for everything".  I depend on others for very very little.   In fact schematics are drawn up right now for a cabin we want to build on some acreage, windmill built on a homebrew method (axial flux method), rain water catchments, solar setup off grid (no tie in).  I'm trying to be very self sufficient.   I've felt a draw to that my entire life.   

That doesn't mean that I don't need God.  I absolutely need God, as he is my strength and my salvation.

It's not a pride thing that says "I don't need others".   In ways I do need others, but perhaps much less than many people.  I try to learn and achieve things on my own.  It's not impossible to do.

When you work with God's creation and respect it, I believe he will open doors for people to see things they may have not before.
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Hey yesh, you looking to hire anyone?
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Offline vamrat

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What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day.

Vae victus.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline primuspilus

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What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day
Only because these groups choose to have it affect them. If you're a black guy carrying around a chip on your sholder because of slavery, you're pathetic. Show me your stripes from the lash or shut up.

PP
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Offline truthseeker32

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Quote
What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day
Only because these groups choose to have it affect them. If you're a black guy carrying around a chip on your sholder because of slavery, you're pathetic. Show me your stripes from the lash or shut up.

PP
Please don't fall into the trap of overgeneralization.

Offline primuspilus

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Please don't fall into the trap of overgeneralization
Is that beside the trap of the perpetual victim?

PP
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Gregory the Great

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Offline HabteSelassie

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day
Only because these groups choose to have it affect them. If you're a black guy carrying around a chip on your sholder because of slavery, you're pathetic. Show me your stripes from the lash or shut up.

PP

Dude grow up.  Choose to affect them? Seriously? Did you really just type that? Systematic racism is still a tragic problem, and America has simply NEVER have an economic system of meritocracy, period.  It is not about a chip on anyone's shoulder, if anything, I always wonder why white folks get so touchy, defensive, and flinching about this issue.  Yes, America is racist still.  So what! Are you the racist? If not, then what are you always so defensive of this illusion of meritocracy?  "Show me the stripes from the lash? That is about the most insensitive thing I've seen posted here in a long time, I DEMAND an public apology by the way.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day
Only because these groups choose to have it affect them. If you're a black guy carrying around a chip on your sholder because of slavery, you're pathetic. Show me your stripes from the lash or shut up.

PP

Dude grow up.  Choose to affect them? Seriously? Did you really just type that? Systematic racism is still a tragic problem, and America has simply NEVER have an economic system of meritocracy, period.  It is not about a chip on anyone's shoulder, if anything, I always wonder why white folks get so touchy, defensive, and flinching about this issue.  Yes, America is racist still.  So what! Are you the racist? If not, then what are you always so defensive of this illusion of meritocracy?  "Show me the stripes from the lash? That is about the most insensitive thing I've seen posted here in a long time, I DEMAND an public apology by the way.

stay blessed,
habte selassie



Because we see the effects of that chip all of the time. Hardly a few weeks go by when I'm not accused of racism because I make some decision that people feels adversely affects them. Ask to see an African American's ID - racist, can't make it to help an African American customer in time - racist, make a decision not to hire someone because of their limited availability - racist (all true, personal stories). For many it's just a convenient excuse to remain in their misery. They just can't seem to take personal responsibility for their life decisions. Far easier and more comfortable to blame others.

Offline vamrat

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What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day
Only because these groups choose to have it affect them. If you're a black guy carrying around a chip on your sholder because of slavery, you're pathetic. Show me your stripes from the lash or shut up.

PP

Dude grow up.  Choose to affect them? Seriously? Did you really just type that? Systematic racism is still a tragic problem, and America has simply NEVER have an economic system of meritocracy, period.  It is not about a chip on anyone's shoulder, if anything, I always wonder why white folks get so touchy, defensive, and flinching about this issue.  Yes, America is racist still.  So what! Are you the racist? If not, then what are you always so defensive of this illusion of meritocracy?  "Show me the stripes from the lash? That is about the most insensitive thing I've seen posted here in a long time, I DEMAND an public apology by the way.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

A true meritocracy would be pleasant.  Perhaps we could have all colleges free, admissions not based on race, and then make all entrance exams blind - i.e. give the student a number and have the test graded by someone who never even saw the student.  Do that, then get rid of affirmative action.  Then people would have to survive based on their own merits.  Kind of like boot-strapping.
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Offline orthonorm

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I really hate being stupidly more wise than others at times.

It's really my sliver of optimism that is causing my suffering.

A few more threads like these and I should be pain free.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Anyone who thinks their whole life is screwed up because of racism really needs to stop being such a self-centered jerk off and wake up to the fact that there are plenty of white people in equally messed up situations.
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Offline JamesR

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What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day
Only because these groups choose to have it affect them. If you're a black guy carrying around a chip on your sholder because of slavery, you're pathetic. Show me your stripes from the lash or shut up.

PP

You clearly have no understanding of what I mean. Things are not equal. Minorities have it harder because the affects slavery had still affect them today. For example, because their ancestors were enslaved, they never had an opportunity to really make it big in America, and as a result, their children grew up poor, and then their children grew up poor as well, and it is a never ending chain that has even made it into today's society. When you grow up impoverished and everyone around you for generations has been poor, then you lose all hope and develop a loser's mentality where you do not even bother trying because you just think that you will end up like everyone else around you. Likewise, in many cases, it takes 'seed money' to get somewhere in the world. Usually parents provide their children with a little bit of seed money, but when your parents are poor and their parents were poor (going back to slavery) then you never get that seed money and things are harder for you. You clearly have a horrible understanding of things. As I just explained, just because you were not there when a bad event happened does not mean that it still did not have negative affects on your kind in the long run.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

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What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day
Only because these groups choose to have it affect them. If you're a black guy carrying around a chip on your sholder because of slavery, you're pathetic. Show me your stripes from the lash or shut up.

PP

Dude grow up.  Choose to affect them? Seriously? Did you really just type that? Systematic racism is still a tragic problem, and America has simply NEVER have an economic system of meritocracy, period.  It is not about a chip on anyone's shoulder, if anything, I always wonder why white folks get so touchy, defensive, and flinching about this issue.  Yes, America is racist still.  So what! Are you the racist? If not, then what are you always so defensive of this illusion of meritocracy?  "Show me the stripes from the lash? That is about the most insensitive thing I've seen posted here in a long time, I DEMAND an public apology by the way.

stay blessed,
habte selassie



Because we see the effects of that chip all of the time. Hardly a few weeks go by when I'm not accused of racism because I make some decision that people feels adversely affects them. Ask to see an African American's ID - racist, can't make it to help an African American customer in time - racist, make a decision not to hire someone because of their limited availability - racist (all true, personal stories). For many it's just a convenient excuse to remain in their misery. They just can't seem to take personal responsibility for their life decisions. Far easier and more comfortable to blame others.

While you bring up an interesting point, have you tried looking at it from their perspective? While I believe that you probably are not doing these things to them out of racism, did you ever try and understand that maybe they have genuine reasons to suspect racism? Racial profiling does indeed happen no matter how much the White conservatives want to ignore it, so I find it only natural that some minorities may take it offensive or as being racist when these things happen to them because there is indeed a good chance that they could be being racially profiled against.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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James, pretty much all of that is also true of lower class whites.  Go to the UK and replace chav with black / minority and you get pretty much the same equation. 

Offline Quinault

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I would like to know what the justification for racism against American Indians is. Bad teeth and diabetes? Alcoholism is a problem amongst indians. Yes, we need to take responsibility for that. But it is taking advantage of the situation when people set up bars and liquor stores right outside the boundary of a dry indian reservation.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 06:19:40 AM by Quinault »

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/opinion/sunday/kristof-a-battle-with-the-brewers.html

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Pine Ridge, one of America’s largest Indian reservations, bans alcohol. The Oglala Sioux who live there struggle to keep alcohol out, going so far as to arrest people for possession of a can of beer. But the tribe has no jurisdiction over Whiteclay because it is just outside the reservation boundary.

So Anheuser-Busch and other brewers pour hundreds of thousands of gallons of alcohol into the liquor stores of Whiteclay, knowing that it ends up consumed illicitly by Pine Ridge residents and fuels alcoholism, crime and misery there. In short, a giant corporation’s business model here is based on violating tribal rules and destroying the Indians’ way of living.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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I would like to know what the justification for racism against American Indians is. Bad teeth and diabetes? Alcoholism is a problem amongst indians. Yes, we need to take responsibility for that. But it is taking advantage of the situation when people set up bars and liquor stores right outside the boundary of a dry indian reservation.

Not to mention the casinos.

Racism is often rooted in envy. People hate the beauty and strength that they can't find within. They don't recognize the image of God that they themselves possess, and thus they are offended by the glory of God that radiates from their fellow man. So they create cariacatures and stereoptypes of other races, exaggerating perceived flaws in an attempt to obfuscate their own insecurities and weaknesses.


Selam    
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

Offline PeterTheAleut

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I would like to know what the justification for racism against American Indians is. Bad teeth and diabetes? Alcoholism is a problem amongst indians. Yes, we need to take responsibility for that. But it is taking advantage of the situation when people set up bars and liquor stores right outside the boundary of a dry indian reservation.

Not to mention the casinos.
What about the casinos? AFAIK, those are usually set up by the reservations themselves to operate inside the reservations as a way of making money for the reservations.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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I would like to know what the justification for racism against American Indians is. Bad teeth and diabetes? Alcoholism is a problem amongst indians. Yes, we need to take responsibility for that. But it is taking advantage of the situation when people set up bars and liquor stores right outside the boundary of a dry indian reservation.

Not to mention the casinos.
What about the casinos? AFAIK, those are usually set up by the reservations themselves to operate inside the reservations as a way of making money for the reservations.

There are always those who sell out their own people for the spoils of Babylon.


Selam
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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I would like to know what the justification for racism against American Indians is. Bad teeth and diabetes? Alcoholism is a problem amongst indians. Yes, we need to take responsibility for that. But it is taking advantage of the situation when people set up bars and liquor stores right outside the boundary of a dry indian reservation.

Not to mention the casinos.
What about the casinos? AFAIK, those are usually set up by the reservations themselves to operate inside the reservations as a way of making money for the reservations.

There are always those who sell out their own people for the spoils of Babylon.
But your mention of them doesn't fit the context in which you posted it. What connection do you see between those non-natives who would set up bars and liquor stores immediately outside the reservations and those natives who would set up casinos inside their reservations?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline vamrat

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I would like to know what the justification for racism against American Indians is. Bad teeth and diabetes? Alcoholism is a problem amongst indians. Yes, we need to take responsibility for that. But it is taking advantage of the situation when people set up bars and liquor stores right outside the boundary of a dry indian reservation.

Not to mention the casinos.

Racism is often rooted in envy. People hate the beauty and strength that they can't find within. They don't recognize the image of God that they themselves possess, and thus they are offended by the glory of God that radiates from their fellow man. So they create cariacatures and stereoptypes of other races, exaggerating perceived flaws in an attempt to obfuscate their own insecurities and weaknesses.


Selam    

What happens when a significant portion of a race makes a caricature of themselves.  What if this caricature is funny at a distance albeit undesirable up close...thus the only natural response is derision (the sort of laughing you reserve for people that are far off and you'd just as soon it stay that way)?  Some people bring their own problems upon themselves.  Unfortunately, the other members of that group who do not make a mockery of their people are often lumped in with the fools.  

The problem is, many people from this race think it is the majority's responsibility to 'fix' the fools from the minority race in question.  We can try, but they have to meet us half way.

And no, at least in my case, I do not have insecurities about my group.  Insecurity implies uncertainty.  I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind where my people are headed.  As for your people, no, you don't need to assimilate into European/American culture.  I would suggest you learn how to properly serve the Chinese.  That's what I'll be doing.


ADDENDUM - There is one possible alternative to serving either the Moslems, Hindus, or Chinese.  If Whites and Blacks can work together we might have a chance.  Unfortunately for both of us, I don't see that happening.  You can't forgive us for the past.  If we worked together, Europeans, North Americans, and Africans (who have been suffering under the Moslem yoke for centuries) we would have the numbers, the resources, and the technology to do it.  But the Europeans have forgotten how to fight, the Americans have forgotten how to work, and the Africans have forgotten how to learn.  Colonialism was not the best of circumstances, but while Whitey may be cruel, he is efficient.  We build roads, schools, hospitals as well as tanks, air craft carriers, and small arms.  The Africans failed to learn from us while we were there.  (Since I always use a Roman quote when talking with you, try this one - It is proper and right to learn, even from your enemies.)  Today, the Chinese have learned from us.  They suffered under our boots and those of the Japanese (a culture who learned from us very quickly).  They did not take on a victim mentality, though.  They saw the things we did right and they copied them.  They saw our mistakes and are avoiding them.  I think the Africans will go with the Chinese, and perhaps it will be to their benefit.  The African-Americans, on the other hand, are stuck with us.  If we go down, they will go with us.

Food for thought.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 10:21:12 AM by vamrat »
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Offline primuspilus

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Racism is often rooted in envy. People hate the beauty and strength that they can't find within. They don't recognize the image of God that they themselves possess, and thus they are offended by the glory of God that radiates from their fellow man. So they create cariacatures and stereoptypes of other races, exaggerating perceived flaws in an attempt to obfuscate their own insecurities and weaknesses
I can say that this is the last reason racism exists.

Racism exists for a very simple reason. People have pre-conceived dislikes of a certain people group (whether by parents, society, or some injustice or crime perpetrated against them) and they sub-conciously find reasons to legitimize their hatred, and cast aside anything that would disprove their prejudice.

The viewing of the glory of God in someone has nothing to do with it. Neither do people conciously say, "I hate myself, so I'll hate someone else to make myself feel better!" That does not happen.

Thats the "the bully picks on you because they're jealous" excuse. Its a laughably ridiculous reasoning. The person bullies, because they can.

PP
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 10:25:02 AM by primuspilus »
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Offline vamrat

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What people do not undestand is that the horrible affects of slavery, racial discrimination and neglect still affect minorities and certain groups of people to this very day. Just because you may not have physically been a slave or alive during the Civil Rights Movement does not mean that the horrible acts of racism and neglect committed by evil men in the past do not affect you. Indeed, it does still affect minority groups like Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans up to this very day
Only because these groups choose to have it affect them. If you're a black guy carrying around a chip on your sholder because of slavery, you're pathetic. Show me your stripes from the lash or shut up.

PP

You clearly have no understanding of what I mean. Things are not equal. Minorities have it harder because the affects slavery had still affect them today. For example, because their ancestors were enslaved, they never had an opportunity to really make it big in America, and as a result, their children grew up poor, and then their children grew up poor as well, and it is a never ending chain that has even made it into today's society. When you grow up impoverished and everyone around you for generations has been poor, then you lose all hope and develop a loser's mentality where you do not even bother trying because you just think that you will end up like everyone else around you. Likewise, in many cases, it takes 'seed money' to get somewhere in the world. Usually parents provide their children with a little bit of seed money, but when your parents are poor and their parents were poor (going back to slavery) then you never get that seed money and things are harder for you. You clearly have a horrible understanding of things. As I just explained, just because you were not there when a bad event happened does not mean that it still did not have negative affects on your kind in the long run.

Your seed money but has merit, but you fail to show how this only affects people of a certain race.  Furthermore, if people are still suffering from the effects of slavery, that neither they nor their parents suffered under, then this would be a failure to evolve.  That's on them.  By your logic I should be much more stunted than the minority groups in the US because my ancestors suffered under 800 years of British oppression.  Hell, slavery is over and gone but part of my ancestral homeland is STILL under the occupation of the British.  No James, when people fail to adapt and then look for excuses, they will only continue failing to adapt.
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Offline primuspilus

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For example, because their ancestors were enslaved, they never had an opportunity to really make it big in America, and as a result, their children grew up poor, and then their children grew up poor as well, and it is a never ending chain that has even made it into today's society
No, the reason that these folks stay poor and uneducated, is because their popular culture glorifies it. Slavery had nothing to do with it.

Quote
Likewise, in many cases, it takes 'seed money' to get somewhere in the world
no it doesnt. Most folks dont get seed money. They get educated and get a job.

Quote
You clearly have a horrible understanding of things
No, you just love the victim mentality and have clearly been convinced of it. You whole explanation is based on emotion and has not an ounce of fact behind it. Then again, in light of some of your other views, it does not surprise me.

PP
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Offline HabteSelassie

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For example, because their ancestors were enslaved, they never had an opportunity to really make it big in America, and as a result, their children grew up poor, and then their children grew up poor as well, and it is a never ending chain that has even made it into today's society
No, the reason that these folks stay poor and uneducated, is because their popular culture glorifies it. Slavery had nothing to do with it.[/b]

Quote
Likewise, in many cases, it takes 'seed money' to get somewhere in the world
no it doesn't. Most folks dint get seed money. They get educated and get a job.

Quote
You clearly have a horrible understanding of things
No, you just love the victim mentality and have clearly been convinced of it. You whole explanation is based on emotion and has not an ounce of fact behind it. Then again, in light of some of your other views, it does not surprise me.

PP

More gems of backwoods wisdom eh?  Still no apology only more foot in mouth disease kind of comments? Such a pity :(

"Minorities" have a disproportionate public invest in education and community resources than white folks on the whole, this explains racial discrepancies in education attainment.  Black folks are not lazy, that is a racial stereotype.  Black students work just as hard as any others, but many of the schools they attend are cripplingly underfunded.  Further, when people like to speak so negatively about them, what do you think they expect from our society? Why should black and brown folks even WANT to buy into a system full of negative, condescending, patronizing, and down right silly attitudes like those expressed on this forum?


Your seed money but has merit, but you fail to show how this only affects people of a certain race.  Furthermore, if people are still suffering from the effects of slavery, that neither they nor their parents suffered under, then this would be a failure to evolve.  That's on them. By your logic I should be much more stunted than the minority groups in the US because my ancestors suffered under 800 years of British oppression.  Hell, slavery is over and gone but part of my ancestral homeland is STILL under the occupation of the British.  No James, when people fail to adapt and then look for excuses, they will only continue failing to adapt.
So now you and primuspllus owe the forum an apology for such racially and historically insensitive comments? Failure to evolve? Its on them? Seriously?

The vast majority of wealth held by major corporations and the super wealthy is directly related to the history of slavery and racial inequality in this country.  Now today, these corporations equally fleece brown folks from the Americas the way they used to fleece black folks.  It is pure greed and exploitation.  It is not a matter of meritocracy, or evolving, or bucking up, it is a matter of a systematic exploitation perpetuated by businesses.  Attitudes like those expressed on the thread (I.E. of denial) or exaggerate the problem and perpetuate it across further generations.  The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is one, and in the United States today, racial inequality and racism has not been yet resolved, there is still a problem to solve, not one to further ignore and pretend it never happened :(

Lord have His mercy, if this weren't the internet I might just get a bit more upset.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:08:19 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline primuspilus

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More gems of backwoods wisdom eh?
No. just facts as I see it.

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Black folks are not lazy, that is a racial stereotype
I never said they were. What I did say is that the popular culture being shoved upon them promotes it.

Quote
Black students work just as hard as any others, but many of the schools they attend are cripplingly underfunded
This is mis management in the administration of these schools. It has nothing to do with race.

Quote
So now you and primuspllus owe the forum an apology for such racially and historically insensitive comments?
You have a better chance of finding a blue camel in Oregon then me apologizing for my comment. I simply stated what I thought is behind racisim. I totally disagree with the complete drivel I read about the cause of racism. If you found that insensitive, then grow thicker skin.

BTW why should I apologize if I dont mean it? Just to rub someone's hurt 'lil butt?

This is not kindergarten, if you're offended, you'll live. If I get offended, I'll live.


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The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is one
There is one. Racism is horrible. However, there is racism all over the place. Slavery has nothing to do with it.

Quote
not one to further ignore and pretend it never happened
Im not ignoring it, I simply dont think the reasons stated are accurate. If you dont agree, then thats your opinion, which is fine.
Quote
racial inequality and racism has not been yet resolved
and instituting race based legislation, and have race only clubs doesnt do a damn thing to solve it.

PP
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Black students work just as hard as any others, but many of the schools they attend are cripplingly underfunded
This is mis management in the administration of these schools. It has nothing to do with race.

Quote
So now you and primuspllus owe the forum an apology for such racially and historically insensitive comments?
You have a better chance of finding a blue camel in Oregon then me apologizing for my comment. I simply stated what I thought is behind racisim. I totally disagree with the complete drivel I read about the cause of racism. If you found that insensitive, then grow thicker skin.

BTW why should I apologize if I dont mean it? Just to rub someone's hurt 'lil butt?

This is not kindergarten, if you're offended, you'll live. If I get offended, I'll live.


Quote
The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is one
There is one. Racism is horrible. However, there is racism all over the place. Slavery has nothing to do with it.

Quote
not one to further ignore and pretend it never happened
Im not ignoring it, I simply dont think the reasons stated are accurate. If you dont agree, then thats your opinion, which is fine.
Quote
racial inequality and racism has not been yet resolved
and instituting race based legislation, and have race only clubs doesnt do a damn thing to solve it.

PP

No one is talking about race based legislation, I am again calling you out for your negative attitudes about black people.  You may not see it, but it is clear as day from your comments which are demeaning, belittling, and even insulting.  I'm sure all the black folks in the Church would greatly appreciate your absolute lack of Christian humility in refusing to apologize for offending people.  Lord knows I am sorry if this offends you, but the flag has got to be hoisted! Its all love my brother, but these kind of destructive attitudes you've expressed are exactly part of the problem.   Just know that in the future, if you make racially inappropriate comments, I will ALWAYS respond in kind.   Natty watchin you

I sincerely and humbly apologize if this offends you, but these are serious matters, for some folks even life or death!

I don't expect to necessarily change your mind, just to make you as uncomfortable as your comments have made me and I am sure many others feel :(

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:27:56 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline truthseeker32

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Those who believe poor people stay poor by their own doing should take some time to read Rawls. Hell, even Friedman acknowledges that many are poorer than most simply by chance.

Offline primuspilus

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No one is talking about race based legislation, I am again calling you out for your negative attitudes about black people
I dont have negative attitudes about black folks. I do have a problem with the crap that is shoved upon them from people within their own community promoting the negative stereotypes that they are saddled with.

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You may not see it, but it is clear as day from your comments which are demeaning, belittling, and even insulting
To you maybe. I simply see all the racial bs as nothing more than a victim mentality that is permeated by the community's "leadership" and politicians looking for a cheap vote.

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Lord knows I am sorry if this offends you, but the flag has got to be hoisted!
unlike others, I dont demand a fake apology just to soothe my sensibilities. The sun still rises if I am offended, which I am not, because I realize:

news flash, people have other opinions, and I dont need to be offended by them.


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I don't expect to necessarily change your mind, just to make you as uncomfortable as your comments have made me and I am sure many others feel
Im not uncomfortable in the least. I realize that as soon as folks have a differning opinion about racial matter then what is shoved around as "fact", they're automatically a racist. Nothing new here.


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Offline vamrat

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Greetings int hat Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Your seed money but has merit, but you fail to show how this only affects people of a certain race.  Furthermore, if people are still suffering from the effects of slavery, that neither they nor their parents suffered under, then this would be a failure to evolve.  That's on them. By your logic I should be much more stunted than the minority groups in the US because my ancestors suffered under 800 years of British oppression.  Hell, slavery is over and gone but part of my ancestral homeland is STILL under the occupation of the British.  No James, when people fail to adapt and then look for excuses, they will only continue failing to adapt.
So now you and primuspllus owe the forum an apology for such racially and historically insensitive comments? Failure to evolve? Its on them? Seriously?

The vast majority of wealth held by major corporations and the super wealthy is directly related to the history of slavery and racial inequality in this country.  Now today, these corporations equally fleece brown folks from the Americas the way they used to fleece black folks.  It is pure greed and exploitation.  It is not a matter of meritocracy, or evolving, or bucking up, it is a matter of a systematic exploitation perpetuated by businesses.  Attitudes like those expressed on the thread (I.E. of denial) or exaggerate the problem and perpetuate it across further generations.  The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is one, and in the United States today, racial inequality and racism has not been yet resolved, there is still a problem to solve, not one to further ignore and pretend it never happened :(

Lord have His mercy, if this weren't the internet I might just get a bit more upset.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

How did many large corporations today get their money from slavery?  Slavery has been out since 1865 and the South wasn't known for it's industrialization.  It was an agrarian society.  Most of what it did have the North smashed in it's invasion.  At this point your argument is still non sequitor, though I would be more than willing to listen if you can show me exact examples (in a concise format, I'm not big on reading links) of modern corporations (please stick with the largest, let's say, ten or so) that have directly profited from slavery. 

As for the exploitation of 'brown' labourers, I am fully with you on this.  They should not be allowed to enter the country.  They are not only being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people, but are also driving down our wages and taking up manufacturing jobs that should be available to lower class American citizens (like me).  Likewise, I think using sweat shops in foreign countries is a travesty.  Of course, it has been shown that most labourers in third world countries are better off in sweat shops than in prostitution or just starving (they are way too overpopulated so sustenance farming is generally out...Bangladesh, I'm looking at you...) but once again, this is taking jobs from my fellow countrymen.  I think these shops should be hit with tariffs.  If a company wanted to use cheap foreign labour out of the kindness of their hearts, or due to better workmanship, etc, they could just skip on the bonuses and jets and then break even.

Now I will have to disagree with you on the meritocracy, evolving, and buckling up.  I want to see results, not fuzzy feelings.  I'll take my warm fuzzy feelings when I go to the bar on Friday night and chat with the pretty bartenders.  When it gets to social structure, economics, etc., I want to see results.  The best way for this is for people to better themselves.  Yes, we should help others out and I try as best I can, and as I build up my own economic base I will do more to help my less fortunate friends out in finding jobs, getting educated, and having a place to stay if it gets to that point.  I am a big believer in the concept of 'networked tribes' and the 'resilient community'.  (If you are interested in this subject, I recommend anything by John Robb.)  I think the Roman clientella system is one of the better ideas I've ever heard.  But people ultimately will have to work, take opportunities where they present themselves, and improve themselves.  People who refuse to help themselves are unhelpable.  I see no purpose in wasting sympathy, effort, and time on those who refuse to help me help them.

As for apologies, if you can prove to me I said anything untruthful then an apology will be forthcoming.  Otherwise, I believe that everything I have said is logical and is proven daily by the lives of thousands upon thousands of people around me.
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Offline vamrat

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Those who believe poor people stay poor by their own doing should take some time to read Rawls. Hell, even Friedman acknowledges that many are poorer than most simply by chance.

But we have a very dignified poverty in this country where the poor have access to luxuries that the rich fifty years ago would have been baffled by.  When I think of the poor in this country I think of the bums.  I give them money out of my pocket.  When I think of the work-averse class I see people who want the fruits of other people's labours.  I give them money out of my paycheck through the State, and believe me, I do this only because the powers that be can bring more rifles to bear than I can.  You do not have a right to a cellphone.  You do not have a right to video games.  You do not have a right to a computer, a car, fancy clothes, jewelry, or other accoutrements of wealth.  Stop giving these people welfare checks and start giving them opportunities to work.  That would be change we could believe in.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline primuspilus

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I give them money out of my pocket
As we should.
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I do this only because the powers that be can bring more rifles to bear than I can
At the point of a gun they take it.

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You do not have a right to a cellphone
+1
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You do not have a right to video games
+2
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You do not have a right to a computer, a car, fancy clothes, jewelry, or other accoutrements of wealth
+7
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Stop giving these people welfare checks and start giving them opportunities to work
but then these folks would no longer be a slave *gasp* to the government. It wont happen.

Do yourself a favor folks. Go to the grovery store around the 1st or 2nd of the month and watch what the welfare folks buy....also, watch what they are wearing and have. There are some folks out there who truly need help. However there are so many taking advantage of the system.

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Offline JamesR

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...but you fail to show how this only affects people of a certain race.

It is not necessarily race, it is about history and events that have affected the people in question. I'm only stating that at least in America, the Black and Latinized races tend to be the groups of people that have had the most bad things happen to their kind recently in America. Although, I still do acknowledge that this can happen to anyone. I've seen White people before who were dirt poor living in a trailor or on a run down farm because of similar reasons. I'm only stating that bad things done in the past do in fact affect future generations, and that the notion of brushing them off just because you were not there when those choices were made seems downright silly, naive and offensive.  

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Furthermore, if people are still suffering from the effects of slavery, that neither they nor their parents suffered under, then this would be a failure to evolve.  That's on them.  By your logic I should be much more stunted than the minority groups in the US because my ancestors suffered under 800 years of British oppression.  Hell, slavery is over and gone but part of my ancestral homeland is STILL under the occupation of the British.  No James, when people fail to adapt and then look for excuses, they will only continue failing to adapt.

Since when has our morality become subject to the laws of natural selection? Christian morality has always been about helping others, even at the cost of ourselves. In fact, some would go as far as to say that this is precisely what makes us stand out above the animals, because we can care for others no matter what natural selection says. In fact, you sound like one of the countless atheists whom I've met in the past who do not give a care at all about caring for others because they reduce humankind down to the animals. Your morality may be fine and all for the atheists, but it is not acceptable for Orthodox Christians. When the sick came up to Jesus He did not send them away in the name of natural selection and tell them to heal themselves and that their illness is the result of their own weak genes, but healed them and showed compassion. We should do the same thing for people facing problems right now.

No, the reason that these folks stay poor and uneducated, is because their popular culture glorifies it. Slavery had nothing to do with it.

No logical argument or reason other than typical White folk attempt to make a statement about a culture they know nothing about and pass the blame away.

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no it doesnt. Most folks dont get seed money. They get educated and get a job.

Education requires money and a good job requires education which in turn requires money.

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No, you just love the victim mentality and have clearly been convinced of it. You whole explanation is based on emotion and has not an ounce of fact behind it. Then again, in light of some of your other views, it does not surprise me.

Don't tell me what I love, you've never even met me. Based on emotion with no fact? I've done nothing but explain the reasoning behind all of my views and you have just immaturely bashed them without providing an ounce of fact for your own views.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline primuspilus

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No logical argument or reason other than typical White folk attempt to make a statement about a culture they know nothing about and pass the blame away
Hmmm, except I did live in it. The young years of my life were saturated in it. I saw it firsthand. I did get shot at, I did get mugged. I had folks shoot up my house. The only difference is my family didnt wallow in their own misery feeling sorry for ourselves because of some perceived injustice.

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Education requires money and a good job requires education which in turn requires money
Ah, so every person with a degree paid for it themselves hmm?

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I'm only stating that at least in America, the Black and Latinized races tend to be the groups of people that have had the most bad things happen to their kind recently in America
This I can agree with. however, its not because of something that happened over a century ago.

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I'm only stating that bad things done in the past do in fact affect future generations
Maybe one or two generations, possibly. However Im sure Jewish folks would disagree with your premise...as would french, north africans, arabs, english, welsh, irish, scots, and a host of other races that had to deal with slavery in their histories.

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In fact, you sound like one of the countless atheists whom I've met in the past who do not give a care at all about caring for others because they reduce humankind down to the animals
No he doesnt. He just realizes there is a difference between helping others and being taken advantage of by people who are simply abusing charity.

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When the sick came up to Jesus He did not send them away in the name of natural selection and tell them to heal themselves and that their illness is the result of their own weak genes, but healed them and showed compassion
Nobody is turning away the sick (nor should they). I would say that there is a mountain of difference between helping the sick, and folks that really need it, and helping folks that can clearly help themselves but refuse to do so because of the stupid decisions they make and expecting everyone to bail them out.

Case in point: I would gladly help a hungry man living on the streets with food, or money or whatever. However, if the same guy just milks the system, is totally capable of working and taking care of himself, but wont quit smoking weed to get a job so he can pay his child support to his 3 baby-mommas, and wants a hand-out, he can go pound sand.


PP
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Offline JamesR

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Hmmm, except I did live in it. The young years of my life were saturated in it. I saw it firsthand. I did get shot at, I did get mugged. I had folks shoot up my house. The only difference is my family didnt wallow in their own misery feeling sorry for ourselves because of some perceived injustice.

Good on you, but why so critical against those that do wallow in misery? And what justification do you have to suppose that everyone in these situations is capable of rising out of it like you were? I see a lot of baseless assumptions coming from you. Although, to be fair, I might have made a couple as well.

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Ah, so every person with a degree paid for it themselves hmm?

No. Their parents helped them usually or they were lucky enough to get a scholarship.

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This I can agree with. however, its not because of something that happened over a century ago.

I think it is and if you do not think it is, then what is your explanation? The one thing that all of these groups have in common is that they were/are discriminated against very often.

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Maybe one or two generations, possibly. However Im sure Jewish folks would disagree with your premise...as would french, north africans, arabs, english, welsh, irish, scots, and a host of other races that had to deal with slavery in their histories.

They were given more time to recover considering that the slavery in their histories took place a very long time ago whereas slavery in North America of blacks only goes back about 150 years and full on equal civil rights for Blacks and Latinos did not even come until barely like 50  years ago. I'd give them at least five to eight generations before I started complaining.

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No he doesnt. He just realizes there is a difference between helping others and being taken advantage of by people who are simply abusing charity.

Assuming that all struggling minorities are taking advantage of you and abusing charity? Ever think that maybe some of them really do legitimately have problems and are trying their hardest but to no avail?

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Nobody is turning away the sick (nor should they).

Every time you turn down a minority person on the grounds of their 'failure to adapt' then you are.

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I would say that there is a mountain of difference between helping the sick, and folks that really need it, and helping folks that can clearly help themselves but refuse to do so because of the stupid decisions they make and expecting everyone to bail them out.

So would I, but I disagree with your implied attitude that all minorities are refusing to help themselves and expect to be bailed out. In fact, most minorities do not even expect any help to come so they despair.

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Case in point: I would gladly help a hungry man living on the streets with food, or money or whatever. However, if the same guy just milks the system, is totally capable of working and taking care of himself, but wont quit smoking weed to get a job so he can pay his child support to his 3 baby-mommas, and wants a hand-out, he can go pound sand.

Once again, you seem to be assuming that all minorities are parasites milking the system who don't want to work. That is merely just baseless conservative propoganda.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 03:59:34 PM by JamesR »
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline vamrat

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...but you fail to show how this only affects people of a certain race.

It is not necessarily race, it is about history and events that have affected the people in question. I'm only stating that at least in America, the Black and Latinized races tend to be the groups of people that have had the most bad things happen to their kind recently in America. Although, I still do acknowledge that this can happen to anyone. I've seen White people before who were dirt poor living in a trailor or on a run down farm because of similar reasons. I'm only stating that bad things done in the past do in fact affect future generations, and that the notion of brushing them off just because you were not there when those choices were made seems downright silly, naive and offensive.  

Pick one or the other, please.  It's either about race or it's not.  My comments can be taken for anyone who refuses to attempt at bettering their lot, regardless of race.  I have met black people who work.  I have met countless Mexicans who worked (and I am sure there are other 'latinized races' as well who do, I just haven't these people). 

Also, you want to talk to me about history affecting people, how about you bring it up to the Japanese.  Their country was bombed flat and rather than demanding handouts they built their nation again.  Go tell this to my German family members.  They have one of the strongest economies in Europe.  We have been trying to help the former slaves advance.  They are given preferential enrollment in universities.  Many state jobs have quotas as to how many of them need to be employed.  Many of them have taken these opportunities and have succeeded.  Those that have not taken these opportunities are not deserved of my sympathies.

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Furthermore, if people are still suffering from the effects of slavery, that neither they nor their parents suffered under, then this would be a failure to evolve.  That's on them.  By your logic I should be much more stunted than the minority groups in the US because my ancestors suffered under 800 years of British oppression.  Hell, slavery is over and gone but part of my ancestral homeland is STILL under the occupation of the British.  No James, when people fail to adapt and then look for excuses, they will only continue failing to adapt.

Since when has our morality become subject to the laws of natural selection? Christian morality has always been about helping others, even at the cost of ourselves. In fact, some would go as far as to say that this is precisely what makes us stand out above the animals, because we can care for others no matter what natural selection says. In fact, you sound like one of the countless atheists whom I've met in the past who do not give a care at all about caring for others because they reduce humankind down to the animals. Your morality may be fine and all for the atheists, but it is not acceptable for Orthodox Christians. When the sick came up to Jesus He did not send them away in the name of natural selection and tell them to heal themselves and that their illness is the result of their own weak genes, but healed them and showed compassion. We should do the same thing for people facing problems right now.

Christ commands us to give to the poor, but he never commands us to be stupid.  Some of us, even us vile honkies, have limited means.  If I have enough money to feed one person and I have a choice between someone who will use what I give him as a jumping board to becoming self sufficient and another who won't, why should I give it to the person who will just be in the same position later while letting the proactive person starve?  That is stupidity.  Why try to cover stupidity in an ugly veneer of false piety?

Besides, since when has holding people accountable for their own mistakes been immoral?  Perhaps you should tell Christ that He was wrong for spurning that moron who buried the talents instead of using them.

As for saying my morality reeks of atheism, fine.  Better the morality of an atheist than that of a pharisee.

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No, the reason that these folks stay poor and uneducated, is because their popular culture glorifies it. Slavery had nothing to do with it.

No logical argument or reason other than typical White folk attempt to make a statement about a culture they know nothing about and pass the blame away.

Actually, it was a logical reason.  Cause and effect.

There is only one logical fallacy I see here and it's dismissing his argument based on the colour of PP's skin.

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no it doesnt. Most folks dont get seed money. They get educated and get a job.

Education requires money and a good job requires education which in turn requires money.

Basic education does not require money.  K-12 is free, provided for by the State.  If this opportunity is not squandered, one can get scholarships to attend college.  If one happens to be a minority, they will have access to additional scholarships.  Also, you can get base level employment in fast food or other sectors of the service industry (where I and both my brothers started out).  Trade school is not that expensive, especially with financial aide.  Keep in mind that my brother as a diesel mechanic makes more than I do with a B.A. degree and has more job opportunities. 

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No, you just love the victim mentality and have clearly been convinced of it. You whole explanation is based on emotion and has not an ounce of fact behind it. Then again, in light of some of your other views, it does not surprise me.

Don't tell me what I love, you've never even met me. Based on emotion with no fact? I've done nothing but explain the reasoning behind all of my views and you have just immaturely bashed them without providing an ounce of fact for your own views.

If you don't love the victim mentality, why do you argue for it?  Neither PP nor I need to meet you in person to read what you write.
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Ah, so every person with a degree paid for it themselves hmm?

No. Their parents helped them usually or they were lucky enough to get a scholarship.

This is actually quantifiable.  White folks families disproportionately have access to wealth and resources such as cash, properties, and bank loans than black and brown peoples.  This is directly related to the fact that up until the 1970s, we had a racialized economy, where there was a double-standard in wages, where white folks received more wages than their black counterparts, dollar for dollar.  This wealth accumulated in savings and properties, which are either given or inherited by succeeding generations of white folks, who then start on a better playing field with better access to the needed resources.  Further, white folks tend to go to  better schools with better access to college information, college seminars, guidance counselors, and other college related resources including recruiters.  So when white kids go to college, they have these distinct advantages over the average black or brown student. The final straw, is that the numbers show also disproportionate levels of college graduates among black and white folks, so white kids have more access to mentors and role models who make college a viable option, to this day, many black kids are still the first in their entire extended families to even attend a single college class, let alone graduate.  I work with teenagers of all races, white black and brown kids are not usually that aware or concerned about their options for the future, if the adults in their life don't set an example and show them their options tangibly, directly, these youth simply remain ignorant.  If more white kids than black kids by proportion have college as an example by the adults in their lives, they see college more so then as an example. All of this is not politics, it is economics, albeit racialized :(

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 04:27:10 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline Paisius

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Those who believe poor people stay poor by their own doing should take some time to read Rawls. Hell, even Friedman acknowledges that many are poorer than most simply by chance.


Very few people stay poor by chance. Barring some illness most people are where they are because of the sum total of the decisions they've made in their lives.

Offline Quinault

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I would like to know what the justification for racism against American Indians is. Bad teeth and diabetes? Alcoholism is a problem amongst Indians. Yes, we need to take responsibility for that. But it is taking advantage of the situation when people set up bars and liquor stores right outside the boundary of a dry Indian reservation.

Not to mention the casinos.
What about the casinos? AFAIK, those are usually set up by the reservations themselves to operate inside the reservations as a way of making money for the reservations.

There are always those who sell out their own people for the spoils of Babylon.
But your mention of them doesn't fit the context in which you posted it. What connection do you see between those nonnatives who would set up bars and liquor stores immediately outside the reservations and those natives who would set up casinos inside their reservations?

I am not following your rabbit trail here Gebre. I personally see no problem with Indians having casinos. Although having a casino on a dry reservation would seem rather stupid to me. I am unaware of any reservation doing that. Casinos have been around a long time outside reservations. As long as they exist outside the rez, I see no reason why they shouldn't exist on the rez. It is a business in place to make money like any other. At least where I live the casinos on the rez aren't the only ones in the area. I could see the chastisement of Indians setting up casinos on reservations alongside a gambling anonymous recovery center in an area where it is illegal to gamble as exploitative. But that is the only parallel that comes to mind.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 09:51:44 PM by Quinault »

Offline akimori makoto

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I would like to know what the justification for racism against American Indians is. Bad teeth and diabetes? Alcoholism is a problem amongst Indians. Yes, we need to take responsibility for that. But it is taking advantage of the situation when people set up bars and liquor stores right outside the boundary of a dry Indian reservation.

Not to mention the casinos.
What about the casinos? AFAIK, those are usually set up by the reservations themselves to operate inside the reservations as a way of making money for the reservations.

There are always those who sell out their own people for the spoils of Babylon.
But your mention of them doesn't fit the context in which you posted it. What connection do you see between those nonnatives who would set up bars and liquor stores immediately outside the reservations and those natives who would set up casinos inside their reservations?

I am not following your rabbit trail here Gebre. I personally see no problem with Indians having casinos. Although having a casino on a dry reservation would seem rather stupid to me. I am unaware of any reservation doing that. Casinos have been around a long time outside reservations. As long as they exist outside the rez, I see no reason why they shouldn't exist on the rez. It is a business in place to make money like any other. At least where I live the casinos on the rez aren't the only ones in the area. I could see the chastisement of Indians setting up casinos on reservations alongside a gambling anonymous recovery center in an area where it is illegal to gamble as exploitative. But that is the only parallel that comes to mind.

This outsider has never understood the criticism of the casinos.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Also, you want to talk to me about history affecting people, how about you bring it up to the Japanese.

Asians don't count. Nobody is racist towards Asians. Asians have never experienced any sort of historical disadvantage.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline vamrat

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Also, you want to talk to me about history affecting people, how about you bring it up to the Japanese.

Asians don't count. Nobody is racist towards Asians. Asians have never experienced any sort of historical disadvantage.

Oh crap.  I keep forgetting that Asians are white.  Thanks for reminding me!   ;)
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline akimori makoto

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Also, you want to talk to me about history affecting people, how about you bring it up to the Japanese.

Asians don't count. Nobody is racist towards Asians. Asians have never experienced any sort of historical disadvantage.

Oh crap.  I keep forgetting that Asians are white.  Thanks for reminding me!   ;)

Damn straight.
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Offline Quinault

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I think the Asians living in the NW during WWII might disagree :police:

Offline vamrat

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Ah, so every person with a degree paid for it themselves hmm?

No. Their parents helped them usually or they were lucky enough to get a scholarship.

This is actually quantifiable.  White folks families disproportionately have access to wealth and resources such as cash, properties, and bank loans than black and brown peoples.  This is directly related to the fact that up until the 1970s, we had a racialized economy, where there was a double-standard in wages, where white folks received more wages than their black counterparts, dollar for dollar.  This wealth accumulated in savings and properties, which are either given or inherited by succeeding generations of white folks, who then start on a better playing field with better access to the needed resources.  Further, white folks tend to go to  better schools with better access to college information, college seminars, guidance counselors, and other college related resources including recruiters.  So when white kids go to college, they have these distinct advantages over the average black or brown student. The final straw, is that the numbers show also disproportionate levels of college graduates among black and white folks, so white kids have more access to mentors and role models who make college a viable option, to this day, many black kids are still the first in their entire extended families to even attend a single college class, let alone graduate.  I work with teenagers of all races, white black and brown kids are not usually that aware or concerned about their options for the future, if the adults in their life don't set an example and show them their options tangibly, directly, these youth simply remain ignorant.  If more white kids than black kids by proportion have college as an example by the adults in their lives, they see college more so then as an example. All of this is not politics, it is economics, albeit racialized :(

stay blessed,
habte selassie

The problem is, you are still looking at whites as some monolithic group.  This is just as unfair to most whites who do not have any special advantages as it would be to say that all black or brown people are where they are at because as a race, they are lazy.  The richest person I personally know is not white.  He's brown (from India).  All of the people in my family have gotten where they are at by their own efforts.  Where they have had advantages in having mentors and people to guide them...well, one of those bogtrotters/krauts had to get the ball rolling.  It's gotta start somewhere and complaining about the past is not going to get the ball rolling.  Honestly, I have seen it go as quick as one generation, from Vietnamese refugees in one generation to full fledged middle class by the time they had kids.  But they did this not by complaining about the oppression of the evil Viet Cong but by working.  Of my grandparents, only one has a degree, and that is from a seminary he worked damn hard to get into, and even harder to graduate from.  The next generation (my parents, aunts, and uncles) all of them have some form of degree except for two and all of them without exception have made themselves successful.

It's just simplistic.  I hope you can see how being told that I had a silver spoon in my mouth because of my skin colour can be a bit demeaning.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Those who believe poor people stay poor by their own doing should take some time to read Rawls. Hell, even Friedman acknowledges that many are poorer than most simply by chance.


Very few people stay poor by chance. Barring some illness most people are where they are because of the sum total of the decisions they've made in their lives.

Because the decisions of others never impact our lives...
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline JamesRottnek

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I think the Asians living in the NW during WWII might disagree :police:

Who were those people who made the railroads?  They had to be black people I think, given how badly we treated them.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Quinault

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I think the Asians living in the NW during WWII might disagree :police:

Who were those people who made the railroads?  They had to be black people I think, given how badly we treated them.
:laugh:


You know, I have a problem with both sides of this argument. Every single culture, ethnicity, creed/color or any other category have been discriminated against. Tribes killed each other her in the US. People kill each other for some reason or another. It isn't about discrimination as much as it is about evil.

Love makes the world go round. Love is the reason why people don't kill and discriminate against others. Arguing about who is more oppressed doesn't help anyone. The reality is that oppression and abuse is everywhere, within and without the various categories we place people in.

Let's love a little more and think a little less :D

Offline primuspilus

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You know, I have a problem with both sides of this argument. Every single culture, ethnicity, creed/color or any other category have been discriminated against
I understand that. The difference is, some chose to rise above it, and some chose to focus on it.

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Also, you want to talk to me about history affecting people, how about you bring it up to the Japanese.  Their country was bombed flat and rather than demanding handouts they built their nation again
There is a difference. The Japanese arent Black so therefore, their struggles are an illusion  ::)

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I hope you can see how being told that I had a silver spoon in my mouth because of my skin colour can be a bit demeaning
Yeah, because of my skin color, the fact of me eating out of a dumpster is a lie. Whites cant have that. Afterall, when looking at a job application, folks always ask, "Is this person white?"

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Of my grandparents, only one has a degree, and that is from a seminary he worked damn hard to get into, and even harder to graduate from
Now now, dont you know that the degrees are much harder to get for black people?

I find it silly that the folks always harping on how racist everything is are the ones who bring race up the most.
Take the chip off your shoulder, or your white guilt. you look ridiculous.

PP
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Gregory the Great

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Offline HabteSelassie

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


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..is not the preferred nomenclature..

El Duderino..

Is this.. what day is this?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10