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Author Topic: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'  (Read 4294 times) Average Rating: 0
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Schultz
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« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2011, 09:07:17 AM »

It's no mystery, it's online and official and it isn't that great of a translation if you ask me.  It lets out parts, doesn't change a whole lot and according to my grandfather, is a waste of money because all the parishes are going to have to spend uber-amounts of money buying new books.

Altar missals aren't THAT expensive (and since this is mandated from above, I would imagine the diocese would kick in if there's a parish so impoverished it can't buy the new translation of the missal).  One could also print up sticky labels to insert into the old missal to correct things, kind of like what my old Byzcath parish did when Bishop Andrew removed the filioque and the latter part of Dostojno Jest from the DL in the Eparchy of Passaic.  The "pew books" for the RC are almost universally those throwaway missalette jobbies that will just fix the translation (one hopes) when the new one arrives in parishes for Advent.
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« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2011, 10:19:50 AM »

The pre-Vatican 2 or what not Confiteor
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti, beatæ Mariæ semper Virgini, beato Michaeli Archangelo, beato Ioanni Baptistæ, sanctis Apostolis Petro et Paulo, omnibus Sanctis, et vobis, fratres: quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo et opere: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Ideo precor beatam Mariam semper Virginem, beatum Michaelem Archangelum, beatum Ioannem Baptistam, sanctos Apostolos Petrum et Paulum, omnes Sanctos, et vos, fratres, orare pro me ad Dominum Deum nostrum.

The current Confiteor
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti,
et vobis fratres,
quia peccavi nimis
cogitatione, verbo
opere et omissione:
mea culpa, mea culpa,
mea maxima culpa.
Ideo precor beatam Mariam semper Virginem,
omnes angelos et Sanctos,
et vobis fratres,
orare pro me ad Dominum Deum nostrum. Amen.




About all they did was re-introduce the mea culpa. 
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« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2011, 10:23:31 AM »

My question really is WHY didn't they or don't they re-introduce some of the prayers, like the older Confiteor in the vernacular?  They are nicer, they are more encompassing.  Does the powers that be in the Roman Catholic ICEL know that English speaking countries have a high literacy rate and people are atually intelligent enough to remember AND say more in-depth prayers?
For example
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God
The new ICEL Confiteor

The pre-1970 Confietor
I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the Saints, and to you, brethren: that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed: through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and you, brethren, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

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« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2011, 10:33:56 AM »

I don't know the answer to that one. 

Also, this is simply a translation of the Latin.  THe present Latin used in the Mass for the Confiteor does not include the intercession of those particular saints.  It does, however, have the three mea culpas.  The ICEL translation does not translate all three; the new translation does.
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« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2011, 10:47:46 AM »

I don't know the answer to that one. 

Also, this is simply a translation of the Latin.  THe present Latin used in the Mass for the Confiteor does not include the intercession of those particular saints.  It does, however, have the three mea culpas.  The ICEL translation does not translate all three; the new translation does.
True, I realize the job here isn't to re-write the missal, just to translate it to reflect the latin more closely.
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« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2011, 11:39:37 AM »


Actually, I would like to see a return to the pre-schism Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (the one that had the Trisagion in it).

The Trisagion was removed sometime around 800 AD. when Roman Catholics wanted to get rid of any signs of Byzantium.
All that remained in Greek was the Kyrie Eleison.

Are you referring to the Roman mass? (Calling it the "Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory" is a modern term to make it sound more acceptable to Byzantine chauvinists.) If so, it never had the Trisagion as part of the mass. Here is the Gelasian sacramentary; you are welcome to try to find it in there yourself.

There have been several attempts over the years to shoehorn the Trisagion into the mass for Orthodox usage; *why* are people so fixated on this hymn being there, and worried about its absence, when it was never there in the first place?
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« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2011, 05:35:22 PM »

Most RC parishes, in America anyway do not have permanent missal books in the pews for lay use.  They use a cheap, paper back version called a Missalette (a new edition of which is used two to three times a year).  All of the companies that print the Missalettes have revised their mass and music translations and these will be appearing in most RC parishes come the end of November.  The only permanent missals that will have to be replaced are the altar missal that the priest uses (And maybe choir books as well).

I don't think that this will be too costly for most RC parishes too implement (Considering that it is a Vatican mandate and they have no choice in the matter anyway).
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« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2011, 05:37:13 PM »

My question really is WHY didn't they or don't they re-introduce some of the prayers, like the older Confiteor in the vernacular?  They are nicer, they are more encompassing.  Does the powers that be in the Roman Catholic ICEL know that English speaking countries have a high literacy rate and people are atually intelligent enough to remember AND say more in-depth prayers?
For example
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God
The new ICEL Confiteor

The pre-1970 Confietor
I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the Saints, and to you, brethren: that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed: through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and you, brethren, to pray for me to the Lord our God.



Unfortunately the RC hierarchy has a tendency to treat the laity like children and are deathly afraid of giving them too much meat to chew least they proverbially chock on it (Their fears, not mine). 
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« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2011, 08:31:48 PM »

My question really is WHY didn't they or don't they re-introduce some of the prayers, like the older Confiteor in the vernacular?  They are nicer, they are more encompassing.  Does the powers that be in the Roman Catholic ICEL know that English speaking countries have a high literacy rate and people are atually intelligent enough to remember AND say more in-depth prayers?
For example
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God
The new ICEL Confiteor

The pre-1970 Confietor
I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the Saints, and to you, brethren: that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed: through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and you, brethren, to pray for me to the Lord our God.



I agree with you.

The ICEL liturgy is obviously designed for elementary boys and girls, not high school or college graduates.
It is theologically depraved.

(1) The ICEL seems ashamed of repeating the name of the Blessed Mary ever Virgin in the post-Vatican II confideor. In the 1962 translation, the name of the Blessed Virgin Mary was mentioned twice, but in the ICEL post-Vatican II confideor, her name is only mentioned once. Does the ICEL believe that she has the cooties? Why are they ashamed of honoring the Theotokos?

(2) Devout pre-Vatican II prayers which used a higher form of English (we beseech, we implore) are dumbed down to the mundane vernacular in the Post-Vatican II Novus Ordo culture (we pray, we ask). Also in using a secular vernacular instead of a higher form of English, they have demystified the liturgy.

(3) The ICEL persists in using prayers coined by heretics not in union with the Catholic Church: Lutherans and Anglicans. Why are they so against the Pre-Vatican II prayers.

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« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2011, 08:35:38 PM »

My question really is WHY didn't they or don't they re-introduce some of the prayers, like the older Confiteor in the vernacular?  They are nicer, they are more encompassing.  Does the powers that be in the Roman Catholic ICEL know that English speaking countries have a high literacy rate and people are atually intelligent enough to remember AND say more in-depth prayers?
For example
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God
The new ICEL Confiteor

The pre-1970 Confietor
I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the Saints, and to you, brethren: that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed: through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and you, brethren, to pray for me to the Lord our God.



Unfortunately the RC hierarchy has a tendency to treat the laity like children and are deathly afraid of giving them too much meat to chew least they proverbially chock on it (Their fears, not mine). 

If you feel that way, why did you convert back to Catholicism?
I have headed East and have stayed there, content that I no longer have to deal with the repeated insane changes in the Mass and Sacraments.
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« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2011, 08:44:14 PM »


Actually, I would like to see a return to the pre-schism Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (the one that had the Trisagion in it).

The Trisagion was removed sometime around 800 AD. when Roman Catholics wanted to get rid of any signs of Byzantium.
All that remained in Greek was the Kyrie Eleison.

Are you referring to the Roman mass? (Calling it the "Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory" is a modern term to make it sound more acceptable to Byzantine chauvinists.) If so, it never had the Trisagion as part of the mass. Here is the Gelasian sacramentary; you are welcome to try to find it in there yourself.

There have been several attempts over the years to shoehorn the Trisagion into the mass for Orthodox usage; *why* are people so fixated on this hymn being there, and worried about its absence, when it was never there in the first place?

Yes, I am referring to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great. This liturgy was standardized by the great Pope for use by Roman Catholics.

When did Catholics begin referring to the Divine Liturgy as the MASS? I was told by several Dominican Catholic Priest-Professors that the dismissal "Ite missa est" lead the stupid laity to refer to the "Liturgy" as the "Mass." These very priests were trying to educate the laity and urged us tp use the term "Liturgy" instead of "Mass." I am following their advice.

Several Orthodox priests and professors stated that this august liturgy standardized by St. Gregory the Great did have the Trisagion Hymn in it. However it was removed sometime around 800 A.D.
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« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2011, 10:41:09 PM »

But there's no reason to impose a change upon the Roman Rite Catholics, who have already had their liturgical life completely traumatized, by returning them to a heavily Hellenized Rite from over a millennium ago.

Not to mention that this primitive rite would have to be reconstructed by scholarly "experts". Maria, perhaps if we go back to that timeless, golden era of AD800, you can do the same with your DL.
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« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2011, 10:49:53 PM »

Not to mention that this primitive rite would have to be reconstructed by scholarly "experts".


Well isn't that precisely how we got the Novus Ordo?  Cool
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« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2011, 10:56:09 PM »

Not to mention that this primitive rite would have to be reconstructed by scholarly "experts".


Well isn't that precisely how we got the Novus Ordo?  Cool

Exactly.
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« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2011, 01:01:53 AM »

Not to mention that this primitive rite would have to be reconstructed by scholarly "experts".


Well isn't that precisely how we got the Novus Ordo?  Cool

Exactly, except that the so-called ICEL liturgical experts have dumbed down even the Lutheran Liturgy as found in the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904.

Why would the ICEL use the heretical Lutheran Liturgy of 1904 rather than honestly trying to reconstruct the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great? They obviously had an ungodly agenda, and they succeeded in causing a horrendous loss of faith. Per a survey done and reported in a Catholic publication, more than 25 million Catholics in the USA left Catholicism between 1965 to 1995.
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« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2011, 01:09:23 AM »

But there's no reason to impose a change upon the Roman Rite Catholics, who have already had their liturgical life completely traumatized, by returning them to a heavily Hellenized Rite from over a millennium ago.

You are calling the standardized "Mass" or Divine Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great a "Hellenized Rite"?
Come on. It was in Latin. However, extensive modifications and modernizations of that holy ancient liturgy caused the Dominican Pope Piux V to once again attempt to standardize the Mass. However, that Pius V rendition lost a lot in the standardization.
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« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2011, 08:07:42 AM »

When did Catholics begin referring to the Divine Liturgy as the MASS? I was told by several Dominican Catholic Priest-Professors that the dismissal "Ite missa est" lead the stupid laity to refer to the "Liturgy" as the "Mass." These very priests were trying to educate the laity and urged us tp use the term "Liturgy" instead of "Mass." I am following their advice.

Well, it's very bad advice, as the word "liturgy" has been understood to encompass far more than the Eucharist itself for a very long time, at least in English and I would imagine in the rest of the western church as well. Meanwhile, the word "mass" is approximately as old as English itself: the very first citation in the OED is to the Venerable Bede, who is not my idea of a "stupid" layman. Languages develop like that, and reasonable people accept that and get on with reasonable arguments.
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« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2011, 08:42:51 AM »

Exactly, except that the so-called ICEL liturgical experts have dumbed down even the Lutheran Liturgy as found in the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904.

I cannot find evidence of any such liturgy. Indeed, the last time you mentioned this, it was a hymnal and not a service book, and even then, the only Lutheran hymnal I can find with this date is a LCMS book in German.

The more obvious reason for the similarity between Lutheran, Anglican, and Roman rites now is that the Lutheran and Anglican rites have their bases in late medieval Roman rites. But beyond that, in the twenty-odd years before Vat II, they were all reading the same materials (especially Dix, who was BTW an Anglican). I don't see any reason to go back to a pre-schism liturgy, but at any rate a pre-schism western liturgy isn't that wildly different from a current western liturgy, whereas an eastern liturgy of similar age shows many and substantial differences as compared to modern eastern rites.
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« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2011, 09:24:37 AM »

Yes, I am referring to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great. This liturgy was standardized by the great Pope for use by Roman Catholics.

When did Catholics begin referring to the Divine Liturgy as the MASS? I was told by several Dominican Catholic Priest-Professors that the dismissal "Ite missa est" lead the stupid laity to refer to the "Liturgy" as the "Mass." These very priests were trying to educate the laity and urged us tp use the term "Liturgy" instead of "Mass." I am following their advice.

Several Orthodox priests and professors stated that this august liturgy standardized by St. Gregory the Great did have the Trisagion Hymn in it. However it was removed sometime around 800 A.D.

Keble has already replied, so I will just say "what he said". The term "mass" / "missa" has more than earned its place in the English and Latin languages.

Who are these Orthodox priests and professors? What are their sources? How did they determine that the mass had the Trisagion, considering its absence in the primary sources? Are you sure you're not conflating the Roman rite with the Gallican, which *did* have the Trisagion?
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« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2011, 03:42:29 PM »

Exactly, except that the so-called ICEL liturgical experts have dumbed down even the Lutheran Liturgy as found in the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904.

I cannot find evidence of any such liturgy. Indeed, the last time you mentioned this, it was a hymnal and not a service book, and even then, the only Lutheran hymnal I can find with this date is a LCMS book in German.

The more obvious reason for the similarity between Lutheran, Anglican, and Roman rites now is that the Lutheran and Anglican rites have their bases in late medieval Roman rites. But beyond that, in the twenty-odd years before Vat II, they were all reading the same materials (especially Dix, who was BTW an Anglican). I don't see any reason to go back to a pre-schism liturgy, but at any rate a pre-schism western liturgy isn't that wildly different from a current western liturgy, whereas an eastern liturgy of similar age shows many and substantial differences as compared to modern eastern rites.


Unfortunately, my only copy of the Lutheran Hymnal of 1904, which had the complete Lutheran Liturgy in it, is surely now in a landfill or buried around some bushes, as it was reduced to ashes thanks to my Catholic Confessor who tossed it in the fireplace at his residence. I am sure that if you really wanted a personal copy, that an antique bookstore could find you a copy.

I saw it with my own eyes, and so did my Catholic Confessor at that time. Neither of us want to see a copy of the Lutheran Hymnal again.
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« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2011, 03:45:54 PM »

Yes, I am referring to the original Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great. This liturgy was standardized by the great Pope for use by Roman Catholics.

When did Catholics begin referring to the Divine Liturgy as the MASS? I was told by several Dominican Catholic Priest-Professors that the dismissal "Ite missa est" lead the stupid laity to refer to the "Liturgy" as the "Mass." These very priests were trying to educate the laity and urged us tp use the term "Liturgy" instead of "Mass." I am following their advice.

Several Orthodox priests and professors stated that this august liturgy standardized by St. Gregory the Great did have the Trisagion Hymn in it. However it was removed sometime around 800 A.D.

Keble has already replied, so I will just say "what he said". The term "mass" / "missa" has more than earned its place in the English and Latin languages.

Who are these Orthodox priests and professors? What are their sources? How did they determine that the mass had the Trisagion, considering its absence in the primary sources? Are you sure you're not conflating the Roman rite with the Gallican, which *did* have the Trisagion?

These Orthodox Priests are/were professors of liturgics at St. Vladimir and Holy Cross Seminary.

And the "Gallican" liturgy is of more recent vintage than that of St. Gregory the Great, isn't it?
So chances are that the Gallican liturgy was a copy of the Gregorian Liturgy with the Trisagion intact.

We know for certain that the Trisagion was present in the Presanctified Liturgy given to us by St. Gregory the Great.
It stands to reason that it was also present in his standardized Gregorian "Mass."

Again, so many modifications, additions, and subtractions were done to the original Gregorian Liturgy, that Pope Pius V, of blessed memory, needed to re-standardize the Divine Liturgy. It was not restored to the original Gregorian. That we know, as the novel communion under one species was not present in the ancient Gregorian Liturgy. Do you know what other new changes were standardized under Pius V.
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« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2011, 04:07:25 PM »


These Orthodox Priests are/were professors of liturgics at St. Vladimir and Holy Cross Seminary.

That doesn't answer my question.

Quote
And the "Gallican" liturgy is of more recent vintage than that of St. Gregory the Great, isn't it?
So chances are that the Gallican liturgy was a copy of the Gregorian Liturgy with the Trisagion intact.

No. The Gallican liturgy was a completely different family of rites and usages. It was no more related to the Roman rite than the Byzantine rite is, and most likely was an import from the East.

Quote
We know for certain that the Trisagion was present in the Presanctified Liturgy given to us by St. Gregory the Great.
It stands to reason that it was also present in his standardized Gregorian "Mass."

The Byzantine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts was not composed by St. Gregory, and no serious liturgical scholar thinks that it was.

Quote
Again, so many modifications, additions, and subtractions were done to the original Gregorian Liturgy, that Pope Pius V, of blessed memory, needed to re-standardize the Divine Liturgy. It was not restored to the original Gregorian. That we know, as the novel communion under one species was not present in the ancient Gregorian Liturgy.

All the Tridentine reform did was remove medieval accretions and standardize usage. It conforms extremely closely to pre-schism practice. Communion under one species long predated Trent.

Quote
Do you know what other new changes were standardized under Pius V.

A better question is, do *you*? You seem to have very little familiarity with the history of the mass.


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« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2011, 04:11:39 PM »


These Orthodox Priests are/were professors of liturgics at St. Vladimir and Holy Cross Seminary.

That doesn't answer my question.

Quote
And the "Gallican" liturgy is of more recent vintage than that of St. Gregory the Great, isn't it?
So chances are that the Gallican liturgy was a copy of the Gregorian Liturgy with the Trisagion intact.

No. The Gallican liturgy was a completely different family of rites and usages. It was no more related to the Roman rite than the Byzantine rite is, and most likely was an import from the East.

Quote
We know for certain that the Trisagion was present in the Presanctified Liturgy given to us by St. Gregory the Great.
It stands to reason that it was also present in his standardized Gregorian "Mass."

The Byzantine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts was not composed by St. Gregory, and no serious liturgical scholar thinks that it was.

Quote
Again, so many modifications, additions, and subtractions were done to the original Gregorian Liturgy, that Pope Pius V, of blessed memory, needed to re-standardize the Divine Liturgy. It was not restored to the original Gregorian. That we know, as the novel communion under one species was not present in the ancient Gregorian Liturgy.

All the Tridentine reform did was remove medieval accretions and standardize usage. It conforms extremely closely to pre-schism practice. Communion under one species long predated Trent.

Quote
Do you know what other new changes were standardized under Pius V.

A better question is, do *you*? You seem to have very little familiarity with the history of the mass.


I obtained my M.A. in another field.
I did study the Mass extensively when I was a Dominican tertiary as we had classes in liturgics conducted by the Dominican Fathers of St. Albert's College in Berkeley. St. Pius V was a Dominican, remember? When I became an Orthodox Christian, I attended many seminars conducted by scholarly Orthodox Priests who teach at our various seminaries. I trust these priests more than I do the ICEL.

Since you questioned my knowledge, what are your credentials?

p.s. I did not say that St. Gregory the Great "composed" the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.
It is attributed to him as is the Gregorian Liturgy (Mass).
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« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2011, 04:33:25 PM »

I obtained my M.A. in another field.
I did study the Mass extensively when I was a Dominican tertiary as we had classes in liturgics conducted by the Dominican Fathers of St. Albert's College in Berkeley. St. Pius V was a Dominican, remember? When I became an Orthodox Christian, I attended many seminars conducted by scholarly Orthodox Priests who teach at our various seminaries. I trust these priests more than I do the ICEL.

And yet you still refuse to name them or their sources. ICEL has nothing to do with it. Your assertion was that the Roman mass originally contained the Trisagion. You have not posted a shred of evidence to back that up. Most of the primary sources are freely available online. Behold -- St. Armand's Roman ordo, from the 800s. You'll notice it both conforms very closely to the Tridentine mass, and also has no Trisagion.

Can you find *any* Roman manuscript, ordo, paraphrase, description, or quote that supports the presence of the Trisagion in the Roman mass? Invoking unnamed Orthodox professors doesn't count.

Quote
Since you questioned my knowledge, what are your credentials?

I'm just an interested layman. It appears my formal qualifications are as good as yours are.

Quote
p.s. I did not say that St. Gregory the Great "composed" the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.
It is attributed to him as is the Gregorian Liturgy (Mass).

Just because something is attributed to an individual doesn't mean that individual had anything to do with it. The fact that the Presanctified Liturgy is attributed to St. Gregory tells us absolutely *nothing* about whatever reforms he did to the mass. You're the one who was trying to invoke it as evidence of presence of a Roman trisagion.
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« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2011, 05:28:24 PM »

And the "Gallican" liturgy is of more recent vintage than that of St. Gregory the Great, isn't it?
So chances are that the Gallican liturgy was a copy of the Gregorian Liturgy with the Trisagion intact.

No, Maria, that's not the way it is. Gallican liturgies are as old as Roman rites, and they developed in parallel. Somewhere along the line the the Trisagion was brought into Gallican rites, but it also has for a long time appeared in other Western rites (e.g. Sarum) on Good Friday, and also as part of Media vita in morte sumus, as indeed it still does.

This whole line of argument strikes me as yet another pointless east/west edited for language -username! section moderator contest. Really, no reasonable person deny any church the power to revise its own rites as it sees fit. There is also manifestly a great lack of historical understanding, not just of older rites, but of the not all that long ago. One must understand that in the early 1960s the notion that Anglicans and Romans might use the same liturgy was not that far-fetched, and the Lutherans held out hope of inclusion in the same liturgy. It was not thought to be unreasonable that everyone should use the same English text of the major parts of the liturgy, which is why we had the ICET. And most importantly, nobody felt a commitment to make incremental adjustments to the rites; nearly every major group felt the urge to make a thorough overhaul. This continues to drive a long-winded and mostly tendentious argument over whether the mess that followed was due to to radical a change, or not enough. I believe that both side of that argument are correct and faulty. Certainly, looking at the Anglican revisions, the best material stuck more closely to older versions; and the later the material appeared in the process, generally the more problematic it was. There was overall a lack of understanding of how tradition powers anamnesis, and too strong an urge toward assuming that things were being done wrong. On the other hand, the bigger problems had nothing to do with the liturgy (though it stood in the minds of many as a symbol of old problems), and all the liturgical revision in the world wasn't going to fix them. Indeed, it seems to me that  a lot of the urges about revising the way liturgy was done made problems worse.

That's why I think these revisions aren't going to make much difference, and why I think looking towards some specific, "better" ancient rite isn't going to fix things. Most parishes are going to do the new rites in the same crappy way they did the old, and everything else that is bad about how they do church is unlikely to change just because the wording is a bit different.
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« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2011, 05:47:46 PM »

With all your pontificating, I would like to know your credentials.

I was a Roman Catholic for 50 years, attended a Catholic university, and took many classes in liturgics offered by Dominican Priests, Catholic bishops, and Orthodox priests and bishops. I would list my sources, but when I became Orthodox, I gave away all my Catholic references as my Orthodox Priest did not want me to look backwards and return to the Catholic Church as did one of my friends.

I respect the Church's right to modify a liturgy which has problems. However, borrowing extensively from a heretical Lutheran Liturgy (1904) is not the way to do it either. Even though the ICEL borrowed the Lutheran Liturgy with the blessings of six  Lutheran clergy, it still was a move toward restoring ecumenical relations with protestants, and not about trying to correct errors as many sacramental errors were introduced, to the point that 25 million  U.S. Catholics left the Catholic Church between 1965 and 1995.

Check Ignatius Press and TAN books. They have some excellent books on the history and what went wrong with the ICEL Novus Ordo.






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« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2011, 06:07:43 PM »

I suggest everyone calm down and relax. Seriously, please, and get this thread back on track.  It was originally about changing "And also with you" to And with your spirit in the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal in English.  If you want to discuss the trisagion and or pre-11th century worship services please start another thread.  This is a public warning and no further warnings will be given and violators will be officially warned. -username! section moderator
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« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2011, 09:19:48 PM »

For what it's worth, I wish them well with the revised Mass.
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« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2011, 10:49:54 PM »

For what it's worth, I wish them well with the revised Mass.

May it lead to true repentance, humility, and love of God.
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« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2011, 12:55:33 AM »

However, borrowing extensively from a heretical Lutheran Liturgy (1904) is not the way to do it either. Even though the ICEL borrowed the Lutheran Liturgy with the blessings of six  Lutheran clergy, it still was a move toward restoring ecumenical relations with protestants, and not about trying to correct errors as many sacramental errors were introduced, to the point that 25 million  U.S. Catholics left the Catholic Church between 1965 and 1995.

I really doubt that any Catholics left the church over that, except maybe some SSPX/V/whatever traditionalist schismatics. Humanae Vitae chased away a lot more Catholics than any textual changes ever could have. (Guitars, on the other hand....) People who care about liturgical nuance aren't going to become unchurched; they are either going to stew in place, or they are going to find a church they can tolerate. It's a little hard to imagine that 25 million Catholics became Baptists or non-denominational evangelicals or pentecostals over liturgical changes, and those are the only groups even remotely large enough to absorb that many converts. Certainly some did so convert, but they were more likely to have been nominal Catholics whose theory of liturgy was that it should be short.

There certainly seems to be a move towards greater differentiation. I would question, for instance, the need to make such changes to the English translation of the Creed; indeed, from what I can see they have gained little more than a Latinate and unnatural diction, and of course not being able to say the words with anyone else. The translation is more literal, but it is poorer English. Perhaps changes to the Gloria are more justifiable, but again the main effect is to cease to say the same words as everyone else, and perhaps not incidentally rendering yet another generation of service music unusable. Ironically, the ICET translation I object to the most, that of the Agnus Dei, is retained, perhaps because other churches have tended to avoid using it (the 1979 BCP only mandates its use in Rite I, using the old, more accurate BCP translation).
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« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2011, 02:29:51 AM »

Keble,  am honoring this modś request, just in case you missed it.

I suggest everyone calm down and relax. Seriously, please, and get this thread back on track.  It was originally about changing "And also with you" to And with your spirit in the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal in English.  If you want to discuss the trisagion and or pre-11th century worship services please start another thread.  This is a public warning and no further warnings will be given and violators will be officially warned. -username! section moderator
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« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2011, 08:31:56 AM »

Quote
There certainly seems to be a move towards greater differentiation. I would question, for instance, the need to make such changes to the English translation of the Creed; indeed, from what I can see they have gained little more than a Latinate and unnatural diction, and of course not being able to say the words with anyone else. The translation is more literal, but it is poorer English. Perhaps changes to the Gloria are more justifiable, but again the main effect is to cease to say the same words as everyone else, and perhaps not incidentally rendering yet another generation of service music unusable.

The Creed changes are minor, as far as I can tell. The Gloria really needed to have its translation updated--it was less of a translation and more of a paraphrase. The rite is Latin; if the new translations bring a Latinate diction to the English, so much the better.

And as someone who grew up in the heyday of the accordion-and-tambourine era of Catholicism (with liturgical dance! woohoo!), the sooner that generation of service music is obsolete, the better.
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« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2011, 09:30:45 AM »

And as someone who grew up in the heyday of the accordion-and-tambourine era of Catholicism (with liturgical dance! woohoo!), the sooner that generation of service music is obsolete, the better.

Hey, the Catholics have only themselves to blame for that. The Anglicans have been singing perfectly good settings of the ICET texts, with monster pipe organs, for forty years. Heck, even Marty Haugen isn't too bad if you back it up with a killer Lutheran organ.
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« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2011, 10:47:47 AM »

And as someone who grew up in the heyday of the accordion-and-tambourine era of Catholicism (with liturgical dance! woohoo!), the sooner that generation of service music is obsolete, the better.

Hey, the Catholics have only themselves to blame for that. The Anglicans have been singing perfectly good settings of the ICET texts, with monster pipe organs, for forty years. Heck, even Marty Haugen isn't too bad if you back it up with a killer Lutheran organ.

I beg to differ.  My parish growing up had a great big organ and a killer organist and those songs are still atrocious. 

But they're also ear worms and on the off chance I hear something that even approximates one of Haugen's melodies, they all come flooding back.  I was noodling around on the guitar the other other day and all of a sudden found myself playing the melody to "Gather Us In." 

I haven't touched my guitar since.
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« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2011, 12:50:30 PM »

And as someone who grew up in the heyday of the accordion-and-tambourine era of Catholicism (with liturgical dance! woohoo!), the sooner that generation of service music is obsolete, the better.

Hey, the Catholics have only themselves to blame for that. The Anglicans have been singing perfectly good settings of the ICET texts, with monster pipe organs, for forty years. Heck, even Marty Haugen isn't too bad if you back it up with a killer Lutheran organ.

I beg to differ.  My parish growing up had a great big organ and a killer organist and those songs are still atrocious. 

But they're also ear worms and on the off chance I hear something that even approximates one of Haugen's melodies, they all come flooding back.  I was noodling around on the guitar the other other day and all of a sudden found myself playing the melody to "Gather Us In." 

I haven't touched my guitar since.

Ear worms: Musical doggerel

I like it!
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« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2011, 12:58:58 PM »

"Gather Us In." 
All I had to do was read those three words and now I'm singing it from memory.  Thanks a lot.
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« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2011, 01:25:35 PM »

"Gather Us In." 
All I had to do was read those three words and now I'm singing it from memory.  Thanks a lot.

If I must suffer with "musical doggerel" (I like it!), others must, too.

"Eye Has Not Seen" what I have in store for those of you who have "Taste[d] and See[n]" the [sarcasm]musical genius[/sarcasm] that is Marty Haugen.  "We Remember" that "We Are Many Parts," so "Rejoice! Rejoice!"









Yes, I'm terrible.
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« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2011, 02:03:45 PM »

"Gather Us In." 
All I had to do was read those three words and now I'm singing it from memory.  Thanks a lot.

If I must suffer with "musical doggerel" (I like it!), others must, too.

"Eye Has Not Seen" what I have in store for those of you who have "Taste[d] and See[n]" the [sarcasm]musical genius[/sarcasm] that is Marty Haugen.  "We Remember" that "We Are Many Parts," so "Rejoice! Rejoice!"









Yes, I'm terrible.

LOL...nonono...I meant that I like the Ear Worms: Musical Doggerel nexus.  I had never heard of Ear Worms before and I always called it Musical Doggerel...

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« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2011, 02:11:13 PM »

"Gather Us In." 
All I had to do was read those three words and now I'm singing it from memory.  Thanks a lot.

If I must suffer with "musical doggerel" (I like it!), others must, too.

"Eye Has Not Seen" what I have in store for those of you who have "Taste[d] and See[n]" the [sarcasm]musical genius[/sarcasm] that is Marty Haugen.  "We Remember" that "We Are Many Parts," so "Rejoice! Rejoice!"









Yes, I'm terrible.

LOL...nonono...I meant that I like the Ear Worms: Musical Doggerel nexus.  I had never heard of Ear Worms before and I always called it Musical Doggerel...



I know.  In this case, though, the ear worms ARE music doggerel.

And I just like the word "doggerel."
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« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2011, 02:17:17 PM »

"Gather Us In." 
All I had to do was read those three words and now I'm singing it from memory.  Thanks a lot.

If I must suffer with "musical doggerel" (I like it!), others must, too.

"Eye Has Not Seen" what I have in store for those of you who have "Taste[d] and See[n]" the [sarcasm]musical genius[/sarcasm] that is Marty Haugen.  "We Remember" that "We Are Many Parts," so "Rejoice! Rejoice!"









Yes, I'm terrible.

LOL...nonono...I meant that I like the Ear Worms: Musical Doggerel nexus.  I had never heard of Ear Worms before and I always called it Musical Doggerel...



I know.  In this case, though, the ear worms ARE music doggerel.

And I just like the word "doggerel."

doh... Cheesy

Me too...

I still love to hear my old parish sing musical doggerel with gusto and faith...I dunno...Sounds ok to me then....

M.
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« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2011, 02:58:14 PM »

"Gather Us In."
All I had to do was read those three words and now I'm singing it from memory.  Thanks a lot.

If I must suffer with "musical doggerel" (I like it!), others must, too.

"Eye Has Not Seen" what I have in store for those of you who have "Taste[d] and See[n]" the [sarcasm]musical genius[/sarcasm] that is Marty Haugen.  "We Remember" that "We Are Many Parts," so "Rejoice! Rejoice!"









Yes, I'm terrible.

LOL...nonono...I meant that I like the Ear Worms: Musical Doggerel nexus.  I had never heard of Ear Worms before and I always called it Musical Doggerel...



I know.  In this case, though, the ear worms ARE music doggerel.

And I just like the word "doggerel."

doh... Cheesy

Me too...

I still love to hear my old parish sing musical doggerel with gusto and faith...I dunno...Sounds ok to me then....

M.

Nothing like people singing praises to God with joy, enthusiasm, faith, and love!!  You know, like they really *mean* it!  Doggerel?  Here's "doggerel" : :" loosely styled and irregular in measure especially for burlesque or comic effect; also : marked by triviality or inferiority"

And it ain't what I hear in the church (Catholic) I attend every week.  I hear folks singing their hearts out every Sunday, and while I may not particularly like a given hymn or rendering of a hymn (it's all a matter of opinion, anyway, isn't it?) the words, as far as I know, are always theologically correct and sung with the joy, and praise, and thanksgiving the Psalms speak of.  And, oh how refreshing it is, too!  Chant of whatever variety it may not be, but so what?!  It is, in contrast to what I've experienced elsewhere, soul lifting.
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« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2011, 03:03:45 PM »

"Gather Us In." 

I'm not sure if you are talking about the song, or the hymnal, but in either case, I am now sick. gross. lol
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« Reply #87 on: September 21, 2011, 03:13:21 PM »

"Gather Us In." 

I'm not sure if you are talking about the song, or the hymnal, but in either case, I am now sick. gross. lol

Both. Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: September 21, 2011, 03:15:42 PM »

"Gather Us In."
All I had to do was read those three words and now I'm singing it from memory.  Thanks a lot.

If I must suffer with "musical doggerel" (I like it!), others must, too.

"Eye Has Not Seen" what I have in store for those of you who have "Taste[d] and See[n]" the [sarcasm]musical genius[/sarcasm] that is Marty Haugen.  "We Remember" that "We Are Many Parts," so "Rejoice! Rejoice!"









Yes, I'm terrible.

LOL...nonono...I meant that I like the Ear Worms: Musical Doggerel nexus.  I had never heard of Ear Worms before and I always called it Musical Doggerel...



I know.  In this case, though, the ear worms ARE music doggerel.

And I just like the word "doggerel."

doh... Cheesy

Me too...

I still love to hear my old parish sing musical doggerel with gusto and faith...I dunno...Sounds ok to me then....

M.

Nothing like people singing praises to God with joy, enthusiasm, faith, and love!!  You know, like they really *mean* it!  Doggerel?  Here's "doggerel" : :" loosely styled and irregular in measure especially for burlesque or comic effect; also : marked by triviality or inferiority"

And it ain't what I hear in the church (Catholic) I attend every week.  I hear folks singing their hearts out every Sunday, and while I may not particularly like a given hymn or rendering of a hymn (it's all a matter of opinion, anyway, isn't it?) the words, as far as I know, are always theologically correct and sung with the joy, and praise, and thanksgiving the Psalms speak of.  And, oh how refreshing it is, too!  Chant of whatever variety it may not be, but so what?!  It is, in contrast to what I've experienced elsewhere, soul lifting.

You've yet to hear the latest reiteration of "City of God" where the bridge (the fact that I'm using the word "bridge" in a song sung during a liturgy makes my skin crawl) has been neutered.

That was not soul lifting.  It was soul crushing. 
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« Reply #89 on: September 21, 2011, 03:29:01 PM »

"Gather Us In."
All I had to do was read those three words and now I'm singing it from memory.  Thanks a lot.

If I must suffer with "musical doggerel" (I like it!), others must, too.

"Eye Has Not Seen" what I have in store for those of you who have "Taste[d] and See[n]" the [sarcasm]musical genius[/sarcasm] that is Marty Haugen.  "We Remember" that "We Are Many Parts," so "Rejoice! Rejoice!"









Yes, I'm terrible.

LOL...nonono...I meant that I like the Ear Worms: Musical Doggerel nexus.  I had never heard of Ear Worms before and I always called it Musical Doggerel...



I know.  In this case, though, the ear worms ARE music doggerel.

And I just like the word "doggerel."

doh... Cheesy

Me too...

I still love to hear my old parish sing musical doggerel with gusto and faith...I dunno...Sounds ok to me then....

M.

Nothing like people singing praises to God with joy, enthusiasm, faith, and love!!  You know, like they really *mean* it!  Doggerel?  Here's "doggerel" : :" loosely styled and irregular in measure especially for burlesque or comic effect; also : marked by triviality or inferiority"

And it ain't what I hear in the church (Catholic) I attend every week.  I hear folks singing their hearts out every Sunday, and while I may not particularly like a given hymn or rendering of a hymn (it's all a matter of opinion, anyway, isn't it?) the words, as far as I know, are always theologically correct and sung with the joy, and praise, and thanksgiving the Psalms speak of.  And, oh how refreshing it is, too!  Chant of whatever variety it may not be, but so what?!  It is, in contrast to what I've experienced elsewhere, soul lifting.

You've yet to hear the latest reiteration of "City of God" where the bridge (the fact that I'm using the word "bridge" in a song sung during a liturgy makes my skin crawl) has been neutered.

That was not soul lifting.  It was soul crushing. 

Could be.  What do I know, anyway?  I love to sing, and do so, so I'm told, rather badly  Wink.  I'm no musician and am not even sure what a musical bridge is, nor do I really care.  What I rejoice in is, as I said, the sheer joy, enthusiasm, pleasure, and gratefulness which I hear when those who fill my church belt out their praise and thanksgiving to the God that gave them voices to do so.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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