Author Topic: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'  (Read 5006 times)

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Offline Robb

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Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« on: September 13, 2011, 05:02:15 PM »

A humorous reflection on the upcoming (Actually "in progress" in many diocese's) Changes to the English language version of the Roman mass.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93419478


Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
by James Martin

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops on Aug. 4 released the official text of a new English-language translation to the Roman Catholic Mass. It's the first time the Mass will change since the 1960s — though the changes will not take effect for a few years. Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest, reflects on the changes...

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert

Offline Melodist

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 05:37:45 PM »
Quote
And the familiar refrain, "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again"? That's been deleted.


I personally like that response, especially when sang using the same melody as the three amens at the end of the eucharistic prayer. When those two responses were done like that, I always thought they were two of the most reverent points during the mass.

Just my opinion.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline biro

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 05:38:47 PM »
Rats! They're taking that out? That was one of my favorites, too.  :'(
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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 05:39:45 PM »
From what I've read about the new changes, the language strongly resembles that of the Divine Liturgy.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 05:41:27 PM »
Everyone knows the correct response is "kai meta tou pnevmatos sou".
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline biro

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 05:47:26 PM »
From what I've read about the new changes, the language strongly resembles that of the Divine Liturgy.


I think so. I read a draft copy, and it did remind me of that.
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 06:02:13 PM »
I thought it was being changed to "and with your spirit", to repeat the Latin.

Also, I thought the translation took effect in the US this Advent, of which has already taken effect in the UK.


EDIT: And then I read the article....
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 06:22:29 PM by Azurestone »

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Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 06:04:47 PM »
It DID remind me of "kai meta tou pnevmatos su." Wait, what does that mean again? ;)

No way. Maybe after a few years I'll bring my parents back to DL and see what they think NOW.
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline Robb

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 06:23:21 PM »
Everything is supposed to officially kick off at the start of Advent (Nov. 26).  However some diocese's are allowing a limited introduction of the sung (Peoples parts) of the Mass as early as this month.  The entire missal text will not be in use yet.  This is going to create a huge amount of confusion, especially for people who attend a number of parishes in the course of a month (Myself for instance, plus my Mom goes to daily mass at a parish closer to her, and Sunday Mass at another).  With one parish doing one thing, another dragging their feet and each diocese doing the same, things will be somewhat confusing in American Catholicism, at least until Christmas time.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 06:23:51 PM »
Does anyone have a link to the finalized text? I'd be interested in reading it.

Offline biro

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 06:35:45 PM »
I imagine there will be a rush to print booklets and such, so the people have something from which to read. All the current missals and pamphlets that a parish may have, will have to be replaced. I imagine they'll start with printed handouts, and then there will be a run on new Mass books.  :)
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 06:46:16 PM »
I imagine there will be a rush to print booklets and such, so the people have something from which to read. All the current missals and pamphlets that a parish may have, will have to be replaced. I imagine they'll start with printed handouts, and then there will be a run on new Mass books.  :)

There are many that have already been released.

From Fr. Z's blog.
Editions of the new, corrected Roman Missal – UPDATED & CORRECTED]
Handmissal for the NEW, CORRECTED translation available!
CTS: New Roman Missal editions


I'm going to need this.

Offline biro

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 06:52:54 PM »
I bet lots of people get those for Christmas.   :)
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Offline KBN1

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 07:50:49 PM »
So what is happening with all the American RC praise bands?  Any news on that?

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2011, 08:44:47 PM »
So what is happening with all the American RC praise bands?  Any news on that?


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Offline KBN1

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2011, 08:58:51 PM »
So what is happening with all the American RC praise bands?  Any news on that?



Really?  Awesome.  That is great!

I don't actually know what you meant though.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2011, 09:07:52 PM »
So what is happening with all the American RC praise bands?  Any news on that?



Really?  Awesome.  That is great!

I don't actually know what you meant though.

I actually "laughed out loud" at that.

I mean the tradtionalist(ish) movement is winning, and is slowly removing the 70s style mass from RCism.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2011, 10:21:57 PM »
Which direction does the priest face?

Offline bogdan

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2011, 10:58:38 PM »
Which direction does the priest face?

Judging from the videos about the translation on the USSCB Youtube channel, ad populum is still the norm.

(Which I honestly don't understand; if the Vatican can facilitate a new and rather more traditional translation, I don't know why they can't do more to do more about these liturgical...issues.)

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2011, 11:47:58 PM »
a few steps in the right direction it seems

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2011, 12:46:15 AM »
So what is happening with all the American RC praise bands?  Any news on that?


That missal has an agenda.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2011, 12:55:47 AM »
So what is happening with all the American RC praise bands?  Any news on that?


That missal has an agenda.

 :D :D :D

Offline Maria

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2011, 02:22:03 AM »
I get the impression that this "New Revised ICEL Liturgy" is basically the Novus Ordo (Lutheran Liturgy of 1904) with new frosting on top.

Yes, send in the missiles. ICEL has got to go.

I would love to see a return to the unabridged and unaltered 6th Century Latin Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great complete with the Trisagion Hymn.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 02:22:35 AM by Maria »
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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2011, 03:17:07 AM »
I get the impression that this "New Revised ICEL Liturgy" is basically the Novus Ordo (Lutheran Liturgy of 1904) with new frosting on top.

Yes, send in the missiles. ICEL has got to go.

I would love to see a return to the unabridged and unaltered 6th Century Latin Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great complete with the Trisagion Hymn.

I, for some strange reason, doubt that this will ever happen.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2011, 09:09:44 AM »
So what is happening with all the American RC praise bands?  Any news on that?
That missal has an agenda.

LULZ

Offline Maria

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2011, 08:44:08 PM »
I get the impression that this "New Revised ICEL Liturgy" is basically the Novus Ordo (Lutheran Liturgy of 1904) with new frosting on top.

Yes, send in the missiles. ICEL has got to go.

I would love to see a return to the unabridged and unaltered 6th Century Latin Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great complete with the Trisagion Hymn.

I, for some strange reason, doubt that this will ever happen.

Only in heaven perhaps?
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2011, 09:19:41 PM »
So what is happening with all the American RC praise bands?  Any news on that?


That missal has an agenda.
And also with you!  :D ;D :laugh:

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2011, 12:17:36 AM »
So what is happening with all the American RC praise bands?  Any news on that?


;D Well done!
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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2011, 05:05:44 PM »
In my opinion, and we've seen hints from the Pope, that a new liturgy will happen someday.. and really, there are differences but not that shocking in the new english translation. They should have went to a complete true translation for the Confiteor at least...

Offline Keble

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2011, 05:29:58 PM »
I've seen some version or other of the new translation, and my impression at the time was that it was fairly wooden and literalistic rendering of the Latin (e.g. the third response of the Sursum corda is something like "It is right and just"). I don't recall whether they moved away from the ICET texts, but I wouldn't be surprised; I gather some of the intent of all this is to be anti-ecumenical. Of course it does nothing to fix the lousy way that the liturgy is typically carried out in the USA.

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2011, 05:32:31 PM »
In my opinion, and we've seen hints from the Pope, that a new liturgy will happen someday.. and really, there are differences but not that shocking in the new english translation. They should have went to a complete true translation for the Confiteor at least...

From what I've seen, it's fairly literal.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Keble

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2011, 05:35:08 PM »
I would also like to point out that "and also with you" was something they more or less inherited (via ICET) from the Episcopalians, who already had an English liturgy which they were rewriting in the same timeframe. The reason we had it was to try to remind people which rite they were in, except that it doesn't really work out that way: "and with thy spirit" has about the same rhythm, and the second response is only a syllable off, so the train wreck doesn't come until the third response. The Roman rite, of course, didn't have this issue to begin with; they ended up with it because at the time the various churches made a common attempt to translate the main texts the same way.

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2011, 03:51:25 PM »
It's no mystery, it's online and official and it isn't that great of a translation if you ask me.  It lets out parts, doesn't change a whole lot and according to my grandfather, is a waste of money because all the parishes are going to have to spend uber-amounts of money buying new books.

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2011, 03:55:33 PM »
from the USSCB themselves, here is the pdf file of the new translation, not a mock up, a pre-trial version, but the version. 
http://old.usccb.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2011, 04:38:41 PM »
Everyone knows the correct response is "kai meta tou pnevmatos sou".

Because Jesus Christ died for the Greeks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfXIWYdL8dU
Forgive my sins.

Offline Maria

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2011, 09:14:30 PM »
from the USSCB themselves, here is the pdf file of the new translation, not a mock up, a pre-trial version, but the version.  
http://old.usccb.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf

Thanks for providing this pdf document.

Yes, this is a slightly modified NOVUS ORDO (ICEL rendition).

It is the Novus Ordo revised like a rotten cake with a fancier frosting.

I am praying that all the ICEL renditions of the Novus Ordo will be torpedoed and replaced with a devout and faithful translation (not a new ICEL rendition) of the 1962 Missal. It is time for the ICEL to be put to pasture.

Note: the ICEL has never engaged in trying to pursue a faithful translation. They have been rewording and engineering their new liturgies in a ungodly liturgical revolution that has never before happened in the Catholic Church. Witness that over 25,000,000 (25 million) Catholics have left the American Catholic Church between 1965 and 1990. That shows a tremendous loss of faith.

(I used to be a very devout Roman Catholic. However, with the liturgical revolutions spawned by the former Cardinal Mahony, my faith was shaken to the core. I am so grateful that the Holy Orthodox Church has maintained and preserved the Holy Faith once delivered by Christ to His Apostles.)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 09:28:12 PM by Maria »
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Offline Keble

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2011, 10:39:53 PM »
I am praying that all the ICEL renditions of the Novus Ordo will be torpedoed and replaced with a devout and faithful translation (not a new ICEL rendition) of the 1962 Missal. It is time for the ICEL to be put to pasture.

Ah, that 1962 thing. I'm not going to get into the issues of translation, other than to say that a good translation is generally not as faithful as some would have it. But the issue as you present it isn't really in translation: it's that you don't like the current Latin. You can see the 2002 revision of the latter here, and one can see that the English of the eucharistic prayers is translating the Latin with some accuracy if not well. However, the Latin of 2002 is very different in many places from the Latin of 1962, particularly in the prefaces (ironically these are some of the most conservatively revised parts of the 1979 ECUSA BCP).

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2011, 10:47:36 PM »
The new translation of the Roman Missal is a vast improvement over the 1970s translation.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2011, 02:12:30 AM »
The new translation of the Roman Missal is a vast improvement over the 1970s translation.

Yes, but the Roman Missal post-Vatican II is a Lutheran-based liturgy.
The ICEL has been promoting Lutheran heretical ideas since their inception.

Vast improvement ... only in the eyes of the beholder.

This translation is like dog scat covered in pretty frosting to disguise the smell.
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The "Lutheran" trope
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2011, 08:21:20 PM »
Yes, but the Roman Missal post-Vatican II is a Lutheran-based liturgy.

This seems to be one of the tropes making the rounds now, but so far mostly what it seems to mean is "taking communion in the hand is bad", when as far as I can tell the rubrics say nothing at all about how communion is to be received.

Quote
The ICEL has been promoting Lutheran heretical ideas since their inception.

One last time: I do not think you can blame the translators for this; indeed, inasmuch as you keep expressing a longing for the 1962 liturgy over the present Latin, you're implying that translation isn't really the issue.

I'm looking at the prefaces, where some of the most substantial differences between the 1962 and 2002 liturgies may be found, and what I see is that for the most part the 1979 ECUSA prefaces translate the 1962 texts (or more likely, their Sarum predecessors: the prefaces are some of the most conservatively revised section of the BCP). The 2002 prefaces are strikingly different in form. But does this have anything to do with Lutheranism? I suspect, in fact, that the differences may represent an urge toward differentiation.

Offline Maria

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Re: The "Lutheran" trope
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2011, 12:27:58 AM »
Yes, but the Roman Missal post-Vatican II is a Lutheran-based liturgy.

This seems to be one of the tropes making the rounds now, but so far mostly what it seems to mean is "taking communion in the hand is bad", when as far as I can tell the rubrics say nothing at all about how communion is to be received.

Quote
The ICEL has been promoting Lutheran heretical ideas since their inception.

One last time: I do not think you can blame the translators for this; indeed, inasmuch as you keep expressing a longing for the 1962 liturgy over the present Latin, you're implying that translation isn't really the issue.

I'm looking at the prefaces, where some of the most substantial differences between the 1962 and 2002 liturgies may be found, and what I see is that for the most part the 1979 ECUSA prefaces translate the 1962 texts (or more likely, their Sarum predecessors: the prefaces are some of the most conservatively revised section of the BCP). The 2002 prefaces are strikingly different in form. But does this have anything to do with Lutheranism? I suspect, in fact, that the differences may represent an urge toward differentiation.


Actually, I would like to see a return to the pre-schism Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (the one that had the Trisagion in it).

The Trisagion was removed sometime around 800 AD. when Roman Catholics wanted to get rid of any signs of Byzantium.
All that remained in Greek was the Kyrie Eleison.
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Re: The "Lutheran" trope
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2011, 04:00:18 AM »
Yes, but the Roman Missal post-Vatican II is a Lutheran-based liturgy.

This seems to be one of the tropes making the rounds now, but so far mostly what it seems to mean is "taking communion in the hand is bad", when as far as I can tell the rubrics say nothing at all about how communion is to be received.

Quote
The ICEL has been promoting Lutheran heretical ideas since their inception.

One last time: I do not think you can blame the translators for this; indeed, inasmuch as you keep expressing a longing for the 1962 liturgy over the present Latin, you're implying that translation isn't really the issue.

I'm looking at the prefaces, where some of the most substantial differences between the 1962 and 2002 liturgies may be found, and what I see is that for the most part the 1979 ECUSA prefaces translate the 1962 texts (or more likely, their Sarum predecessors: the prefaces are some of the most conservatively revised section of the BCP). The 2002 prefaces are strikingly different in form. But does this have anything to do with Lutheranism? I suspect, in fact, that the differences may represent an urge toward differentiation.


Actually, I would like to see a return to the pre-schism Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (the one that had the Trisagion in it).

The Trisagion was removed sometime around 800 AD. when Roman Catholics wanted to get rid of any signs of Byzantium.
All that remained in Greek was the Kyrie Eleison.
Dear sir;

Take your Hellenized Liturgy and have fun with it but not in Roman churches. I go to a church that follows the Greek Rite. I love it. Whenever I go to the Greek Rite, I serve in it. There's nothing wrong with it. But I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I went to a Missa Novi Ordinis today, celebrated ad orientem with Gregorian chant.

So take your Hellenizations and keep them out of the Roman churches, and we'll keep our rosaries and statues out of yours.

And who's to say that the Novus Ordo Missae is any less a true, apostolic liturgy than St. John Chrysostom? He was a great father of the church, no doubt - but his liturgy wasn't written by the apostles. Liturgies aren't written in stone; they can be changed. There's nothing wrong with it. Sometimes that change is a good thing.

But there's no reason to impose a change upon the Roman Rite Catholics, who have already had their liturgical life completely traumatized, by returning them to a heavily Hellenized Rite from over a millennium ago.
"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The "Lutheran" trope
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2011, 04:05:53 AM »
So take your Hellenizations and keep them out of the Roman churches
Ok. We'll take all copies of the Gospel of John back now.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 04:06:40 AM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The "Lutheran" trope
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2011, 04:08:38 AM »
Liturgies aren't written in stone; they can be changed. There's nothing wrong with it. Sometimes that change is a good thing.
Sometimes it's not. Ex: Novus Ordo.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Catholics Will No Longer Recite 'And Also With You'
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2011, 05:11:20 AM »
The article linked below written by Dr. Lauren Pristas compares the old Roman Rite and the new Roman Rite liturgies, and tends to find the latter to be theologically impoverished:

Theological Principles that Guided the Redaction of the Roman Missal (1970)
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite