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Author Topic: A hypothetical if you will.....  (Read 2179 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 13, 2011, 10:57:35 AM »

I was sitting here thinking to myself of a situation that I feel would never happen but it should happen...

I would love to hear opinions on the following:

The Pope goes on international television and states that Rome recants its claim to universal jurisdiction, states that the Orthodox are not Schismatics (which the EO arent anyways, but please bear with me) and wishes to reunite with the Orthodox Church. How do you think this would change things?

PP
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 11:00:35 AM »

It would change things a lot. We would have to still discuss the finer details (filioque, purgatory, etc.) but if they were willing to go that far already then something would probably happen. Not holding my breath though.
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 11:02:45 AM »

Orthodox would applaud and cheer, Catholics would boo and hiss, division would remain?  I hate to be cynical, but...  angel
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 11:07:41 AM »

Orthodox would applaud and cheer, Catholics would boo and hiss, division would remain?  I hate to be cynical, but...  angel
Thats one thing I was wondering about. You think alot of folks would split off or accept it?

PP
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 11:31:13 AM »

The Pope goes on international television and states that Rome recants its claim to universal jurisdiction, states that the Orthodox are not Schismatics (which the EO arent anyways, but please bear with me) and wishes to reunite with the Orthodox Church. How do you think this would change things?

PP

1) We would consider each other to be schismatic until the schism is ended. That's what schismatic means. To the best of my knowledge, they're official view is that while we are in schism, they do not consider us heretical in the sense that we have maintained apostlic doctrine and succession.

2) Our hierarchs would ask for this to be put in writing signed by the Pope and most likely a namuber if not all of his cardinals.

3) A number (I don't know how many but am sure they're out there) of our laity would (unfortunately) refuse to follow the lead of our hierarchs if they were to even seriously consider accepting Rome's (true) repentance. Others might take a more passive aggressive approach like asking Rome to do more than what should be required for reunion (like removing all pews or some nonsense like that) in order to push them away.

4) There would be a number of meetings to figure out what are the real issues of division and resolve them. Priests without beards should not be on this list, but someone will most likely bring it up.

5) We would ask for fruits of repentance, like returning to a universal practice of at least wednesday and friday fasts and chanting the liturgy for example.

6) There would be a number of sedevacantist schismatic groups in the west. I'm sure a handful of "Popes" will be elected by various groups in various places.
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 11:33:12 AM »

Thats one thing I was wondering about. You think alot of folks would split off or accept it?

PP

I think many on both sides would reject it. This would happen even if true unity were to occur.
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 12:31:22 PM »

The Pope goes on international television and states that Rome recants its claim to universal jurisdiction, states that the Orthodox are not Schismatics (which the EO arent anyways, but please bear with me) and wishes to reunite with the Orthodox Church. How do you think this would change things?

PP

1) We would consider each other to be schismatic until the schism is ended. That's what schismatic means. To the best of my knowledge, they're official view is that while we are in schism, they do not consider us heretical in the sense that we have maintained apostlic doctrine and succession.

2) Our hierarchs would ask for this to be put in writing signed by the Pope and most likely a namuber if not all of his cardinals.

3) A number (I don't know how many but am sure they're out there) of our laity would (unfortunately) refuse to follow the lead of our hierarchs if they were to even seriously consider accepting Rome's (true) repentance. Others might take a more passive aggressive approach like asking Rome to do more than what should be required for reunion (like removing all pews or some nonsense like that) in order to push them away.

4) There would be a number of meetings to figure out what are the real issues of division and resolve them. Priests without beards should not be on this list, but someone will most likely bring it up.

5) We would ask for fruits of repentance, like returning to a universal practice of at least wednesday and friday fasts and chanting the liturgy for example.

6) There would be a number of sedevacantist schismatic groups in the west. I'm sure a handful of "Popes" will be elected by various groups in various places.

Agree. Also, that would put in question the issue of the Orthodox Churches in the West and the Roman Churches in the East. Who would they report to in this framework? From the point of view of the Orthodox in the West, that would put an end to the jurisdictional overlapping since all would have to report to the local no longer "Roman" bishop, but Orthodox Catholic bishop. Also, for being in the West, they would report to and sing in Liturgy the name of the Patriarch of the West, the Pope. *Maybe* discussions would issue about creating autonomous churches of US/Canada, Latin-America, Asia and Africa (which I would feel a to be a terrible prospect due to the influence of the heresy of Theology of Liberation in Latin-America).

Ethnic churches would become just that, ethnic Eastern parishes in the Western Church. Former Orthodox, now Orthodox Catholic bishops would form the local diocesan synods. Eventually, I bet, some of them would be elected official bishop or archbishop of the city and some cities would cling to traditionally Western profiles while others would find new life in adopting more Eastern traditions.

The only visible thing I would expect from the Romans was the return to traditional Masses (Latin or vernacular) and the using of the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist. They wouldn't even have to change from host to bread in my opinion. Even clergy obligatory celibacy is not a big problem, since in places like Latin-America people are used to it.

Protestantism would shrink, many would convert to the True Church, secularism would receive a big blow.
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 12:36:06 PM »

^^^ Interestingly, this past summer during, and right after, my visit to Ukraine I met a number of very active Catholic theologians (including, for example, Professor Borys Hudzyak who is the Provost of the Ukrainian Catholic University; a well-known Ukrainian journalist Anatoliy Babinskiy, and other). It struck me that in our conversations, they unanimously LAUGH at statements like "you guys are schismatics," whether they come from the Orthodox who accuse Catholics, or from Catholics who accuse the Orthodox. They unanimously say that this mentality is so barbaric, so mediaeval, so dumb. What really happened, in their opinion, is not any "schism" but simply a gradual, inconspicuous widening of the gap between the Latin West and the Greek (or Byzantine) East, where both parties are equally guilty in creating this gap, and where both parties must do all that is in their power to stop its widening. Further, they argue that we NEED each other. The Orthodox need Catholics as an example of unity in articulating the doctrine and the social implications of the teaching of the Church. Catholics need the Orthodox as an example of a church body whose life is (at least theoretically) counciliar rather than dictatorial. The more we talk with each other, the more we learn from each other - the better. The reunification may or may not happen, but everybody will win from the friendly, amicable dialogue in any case.
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 12:47:02 PM »

Orthodox would applaud and cheer, Catholics would boo and hiss, division would remain?  I hate to be cynical, but...  angel
Thats one thing I was wondering about. You think alot of folks would split off or accept it?

PP
unfortunatly the ranks of sedevacantism and related movements would swell.  They would have to explain away how their supreme pontiff isn't speaking ex cathedra (I do assUme that his holiness, unlike his predecessors, would make it clear that he was making an ex cathedra statement).  They would have to wait until he died, however, as there is no mechanism to remove a heretical pope, which in their eyes the pope making such a pronouncement would be, never mind that religious assent and submission of the will etc. due to the pope to anything he says.

The WRO, however, would get larger.
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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 12:51:45 PM »

Orthodox would applaud and cheer, Catholics would boo and hiss, division would remain?  I hate to be cynical, but...  angel
Thats one thing I was wondering about. You think alot of folks would split off or accept it?

PP
unfortunatly the ranks of sedevacantism and related movements would swell.  They would have to explain away how their supreme pontiff isn't speaking ex cathedra (I do assUme that his holiness, unlike his predecessors, would make it clear that he was making an ex cathedra statement).  They would have to wait until he died, however, as there is no mechanism to remove a heretical pope, which in their eyes the pope making such a pronouncement would be, never mind that religious assent and submission of the will etc. due to the pope to anything he says.

The WRO, however, would get larger.
We could always use more WROs Smiley

I actually typed originally in my question the Pope speaking ex cathedra. However I felt that RC's would states something that it could never be ex cathedra for one reason or another.

PP
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 12:58:14 PM »

^^^ Interestingly, this past summer during, and right after, my visit to Ukraine I met a number of very active Catholic theologians (including, for example, Professor Borys Hudzyak who is the Provost of the Ukrainian Catholic University; a well-known Ukrainian journalist Anatoliy Babinskiy, and other). It struck me that in our conversations, they unanimously LAUGH at statements like "you guys are schismatics," whether they come from the Orthodox who accuse Catholics, or from Catholics who accuse the Orthodox. They unanimously say that this mentality is so barbaric, so mediaeval, so dumb. What really happened, in their opinion, is not any "schism" but simply a gradual, inconspicuous widening of the gap between the Latin West and the Greek (or Byzantine) East, where both parties are equally guilty in creating this gap, and where both parties must do all that is in their power to stop its widening. Further, they argue that we NEED each other. The Orthodox need Catholics as an example of unity in articulating the doctrine and the social implications of the teaching of the Church. Catholics need the Orthodox as an example of a church body whose life is (at least theoretically) counciliar rather than dictatorial. The more we talk with each other, the more we learn from each other - the better. The reunification may or may not happen, but everybody will win from the friendly, amicable dialogue in any case.

Ahhh....a breath of fresh air and reason in an otherwise highly speculative discussion.  Some write as if they *know* what will happen; as if they can read the mind of God and see the future.  Keeping the dialogue "friendly" and "amicable", as you say, is critical.
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 12:59:18 PM »

^^^ Interestingly, this past summer during, and right after, my visit to Ukraine I met a number of very active Catholic theologians (including, for example, Professor Borys Hudzyak who is the Provost of the Ukrainian Catholic University; a well-known Ukrainian journalist Anatoliy Babinskiy, and other). It struck me that in our conversations, they unanimously LAUGH at statements like "you guys are schismatics," whether they come from the Orthodox who accuse Catholics, or from Catholics who accuse the Orthodox. They unanimously say that this mentality is so barbaric, so mediaeval, so dumb. What really happened, in their opinion, is not any "schism" but simply a gradual, inconspicuous widening of the gap between the Latin West and the Greek (or Byzantine) East, where both parties are equally guilty in creating this gap, and where both parties must do all that is in their power to stop its widening. Further, they argue that we NEED each other. The Orthodox need Catholics as an example of unity in articulating the doctrine and the social implications of the teaching of the Church. Catholics need the Orthodox as an example of a church body whose life is (at least theoretically) counciliar rather than dictatorial. The more we talk with each other, the more we learn from each other - the better. The reunification may or may not happen, but everybody will win from the friendly, amicable dialogue in any case.

Unfortunately, intelligent people is also prone to wishful thinking. The state of the matter from what I gather from Orthodox-Catapapic discussions is:

The Filioque is almost solved. There is an agreement that there is a heretical and an Orthodox sense for the expression. What remains to be solved concerning it is:

Moral and Canonical issues:
Could it be inserted in the Creed? Is the Creed the Catholic (according to all) Creed if it is read with a local wording? Did Rome go beyond its rights in inserting it unilateraly?

I understand the Orthodox answers would be no, no and yes.

A linguistic issue:
In the context of the Creed, which sense stands out, without further explanation, the Orthodox or the heretical?

I believe the answer is "the heretical sense".

A Moral Issue:
Should Romans apologize for having inserted it?

I believe the answers here is "yes". Not in a humiliating way, but just a "Sorry, that was unecessary" kind of thing.

A Pragmatic Issue:
How can it be solved? By finding a new wording or by simply dropping it altogether?

I defend the new wording solution. In fact, if we could agree on the pragmatic solution, we could leave the other issues for the next centuries.



The alleged Supremacy and Infallibility of the Pope

Here, I believe, no common ground has been reached yet.

I would say the tendency is to acknowledge that the traditional role of the Primacy is neither the "Supreme Infallible Primate" nor the "Just Honorific Primate" that radicals in both sides seem to assume, but that of a "President of the Ecumenical Council" with some limited but real authority (in some cases, of holy men, truely inspired authority, but never automatically infallible authority, even in specific contexts).

A side-effect of this would put in question the current monarchical model of Rome's governance of the Western Church. Would Latin-America, US/Canada, Africa, etc become autonomous churches? Would any area of the West become an autocephalous Church? Or would the newly unified Church acknowledge the whole West as it is as the jurisdiction of the Pope?

The recent issue of the Immaculate Conception

I don't see much common ground here as well. Of course, the issue is related to vision of man and grace each Church has, so it is the symptom of further disagreements. I would expect a return to the state of "theolegumen" for the question so that the underlying theological questions are left to theologians. Of course, at this point in history, this step must be preceeded by the giving up of the infallibility claim.
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 01:13:39 PM »

More kosher women.
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 01:18:21 PM »

More kosher women.

Please define.
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2011, 01:21:35 PM »

This should be good......

PP
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2011, 01:22:46 PM »


A sea of Brazilian ladies awaits him.
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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2011, 01:31:25 PM »

How do you think this would change things?
I would become a sedevacantist.
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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2011, 01:36:07 PM »

And just to be fair and balanced, we would have to deal with our own pet heresy:

Phyletism

Church is above nationalities. Period. We can and should praise our collective ancestors as a further application of "love thy parents", but there is no such a thing as a church for this or that nationality. In the New Testament we see epistles to "the Church in Corinth", "the Church in Galatia", but not to the "Galatian Church" or the "Corinthian Church". We should have the Church in Greece, the Church in Russia, the Church in Rome, the Church in Brazil and so on. The same universal Church everywhere, not national churches.

In case of unification, these prides and the barriers created by it would have to be given up or the heretics be clearly declared so.

and schisms

Conspirationisms
Yes, there are infiltrations from intelligence services from various countries, from communists, enviromentalists, Bildebergs, various parties, masons, rosicrucians, tariqas, etc. Infiltrate organizations is what these people do, it's their life. They have megalomaniac dellusions of changing the whole world according to their utopias, interests and desires and are sociopaths and outright mad. They do it with every organization they can. It's hard to prevent. Learn your theology, become a good Christian, and don't pay attention to people who want to revolutionize the world. That evil people are trying to do evil is not reason enough to break with the Church.

Calendarisms
Calendar is not reason enough to break communion. I think we should use Julian calendar for religious matters and Gregorian for civil ones (if other religions do, why can't we?). But breaking communion over it is too much.
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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2011, 01:37:23 PM »

How do you think this would change things?
I would become a sedevacantist.
Even if the Pope spoke ex cathedra on this?

PP
And just to be fair and balanced, we would have to deal with our own pet heresy:

Phyletism

Church is above nationalities. Period. We can and should praise our collective ancestors as a further application of "love thy parents", but there is no such a thing as a church for this or that nationality. In the New Testament we see epistles to "the Church in Corinth", "the Church in Galatia", but not to the "Galatian Church" or the "Corinthian Church". We should have the Church in Greece, the Church in Russia, the Church in Rome, the Church in Brazil and so on. The same universal Church everywhere, not national churches.

In case of unification, these prides and the barriers created by it would have to be given up or the heretics be clearly declared so.

Would that really be considered a heresy per se?
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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2011, 01:38:16 PM »

How do you think this would change things?
I would become a sedevacantist.
Even if the Pope spoke ex cathedra on this?
Yes, because if he did such a thing he would not be the Pope so it would be impossible for him to speak from the chair of St. Peter.
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2011, 01:41:02 PM »

How do you think this would change things?
I would become a sedevacantist.
Even if the Pope spoke ex cathedra on this?
Yes, because if he did such a thing he would not be the Pope so it would be impossible for him to speak from the chair of St. Peter.
like I said, so much for the submission of the will and assent of faith to the "magisterium."
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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2011, 01:43:09 PM »

So the Pope makes infallible ex cathedra statements except when they're wrong. And I'm a vegetarian between meals.
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« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2011, 01:43:46 PM »

How do you think this would change things?
I would become a sedevacantist.
Even if the Pope spoke ex cathedra on this?

PP
And just to be fair and balanced, we would have to deal with our own pet heresy:

Phyletism

Church is above nationalities. Period. We can and should praise our collective ancestors as a further application of "love thy parents", but there is no such a thing as a church for this or that nationality. In the New Testament we see epistles to "the Church in Corinth", "the Church in Galatia", but not to the "Galatian Church" or the "Corinthian Church". We should have the Church in Greece, the Church in Russia, the Church in Rome, the Church in Brazil and so on. The same universal Church everywhere, not national churches.

In case of unification, these prides and the barriers created by it would have to be given up or the heretics be clearly declared so.

Would that really be considered a heresy per se?


It is in declaration signed in the Great Pan-Orthodox Synod of Constantinople in 1872:

Quote
We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which “support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness.”
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2011, 01:51:32 PM »

Ok, so ex cathedra is only when you agree? now Im totally confused.....
Why would any lay person be able to make a claim that the sucessor of St. Peter really isnt because he/she disagreed with a statement from the throne of St. Peter?

That'd be like me in my lonesome stating that the Council of Nicea is wrong because I dont like it.

PP
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« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2011, 01:52:42 PM »

A side-effect of this would put in question the current monarchical model of Rome's governance of the Western Church. Would Latin-America, US/Canada, Africa, etc become autonomous churches? Would any area of the West become an autocephalous Church? Or would the newly unified Church acknowledge the whole West as it is as the jurisdiction of the Pope?
Part of the West, namely North America (at least North of Mexico) is autocephalous.  Rome would not get that back, any more than it would get the territory of the Church of Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, the Czech Lands and Slovakia or Poland-all formerly in the Patriarchate of Rome-back.
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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2011, 02:07:28 PM »



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« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2011, 02:16:17 PM »

Part of the West, namely North America (at least North of Mexico) is autocephalous.

According to some, not all.
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« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2011, 02:19:38 PM »


 Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2011, 02:22:20 PM »

^^^ Interestingly, this past summer during, and right after, my visit to Ukraine I met a number of very active Catholic theologians (including, for example, Professor Borys Hudzyak who is the Provost of the Ukrainian Catholic University; a well-known Ukrainian journalist Anatoliy Babinskiy, and other). It struck me that in our conversations, they unanimously LAUGH at statements like "you guys are schismatics," whether they come from the Orthodox who accuse Catholics, or from Catholics who accuse the Orthodox. They unanimously say that this mentality is so barbaric, so mediaeval, so dumb. What really happened, in their opinion, is not any "schism" but simply a gradual, inconspicuous widening of the gap between the Latin West and the Greek (or Byzantine) East, where both parties are equally guilty in creating this gap, and where both parties must do all that is in their power to stop its widening. Further, they argue that we NEED each other. The Orthodox need Catholics as an example of unity in articulating the doctrine and the social implications of the teaching of the Church. Catholics need the Orthodox as an example of a church body whose life is (at least theoretically) counciliar rather than dictatorial. The more we talk with each other, the more we learn from each other - the better. The reunification may or may not happen, but everybody will win from the friendly, amicable dialogue in any case.

I agree partly, but I think it glosses over too many real differences. Yes, the division was gradual, pretty much going back all the way to the 1st/2nd century. That the division wasn't finally cemented until 1009, or 1054, or 1204, or 1439, or whatever date you want to put on it, is really quite remarkable. Yes we can learn from each other, but saying that we need each other is not only overstating things, but ecclesiologically questionable and unhelpful. That we both made mistakes and both need to move towards reconciliation I agree with, but I think it can be argued even from only RC sources that Orthodoxy has less moving to do than Catholicism does. I also agree that we need to talk more, but not in such a way where we try to come to some lowest common denominator agreement or compromise. If we disagree then we need to be honest about that. We also need to stop attacking those who are more conservative and less eager to move towards reconciliation, for whatever reason. Calling old calendarist Orthodox graceless schismatics while treating Catholics like the love of your life does nothing to help reconciliation with either group.
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« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2011, 02:28:43 PM »

Part of the West, namely North America (at least North of Mexico) is autocephalous.

According to some, not all.
Then Constantinople, the Church of Greece, Serbia and Romania can join North America back again under the Pope of Rome.
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« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2011, 02:33:47 PM »


Just supporting the campaign to dissociate Brazil from a place a person goes to "get girls". We've allowed the image of a country of "beautiful half-naked" to exist for a long time but it has degenarated to transform many cities into global sex tourism resorts. With the World Cup and Olympic games approaching a stronger sentiment is emerging to fight this image of naked behinds at the beach which has fomented this social tragedy.
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« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2011, 02:35:12 PM »

Fabio, I apologize for my earlier remark.
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« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2011, 02:35:51 PM »


Fabio is afraid of ol' normie cutting a swath through his country. He's heard my rep.

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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2011, 02:36:07 PM »

Calling old calendarist Orthodox graceless schismatics while treating Catholics like the love of your life does nothing to help reconciliation with either group.

I don't think they are schismatics just by being Old-Calendarists. When they actually break communion and proclaim the rest of the Church schismatic, the groups that do this, by this very action, become schismatic.
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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2011, 02:38:06 PM »

Fabio, I apologize for my earlier remark.

I pray this is irony.

Sex tourism? lulz. Like most of the OW, most of the women I know from Brazil are glad to get out and find an American man.

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« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2011, 02:38:26 PM »

Fabio, I apologize for my earlier remark.

No problem Iconodule, we are as guilty as the abusers because we let the association to happen.
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« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2011, 02:41:20 PM »

Fabio, I apologize for my earlier remark.

No problem Iconodule, we are as guilty as the abusers because we let the association to happen.

Yeah, most Brazilian women I know would agree. Except for that abuser part being Brazilians, not "sex" tourists.
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« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2011, 02:44:17 PM »

Calling old calendarist Orthodox graceless schismatics while treating Catholics like the love of your life does nothing to help reconciliation with either group.

I don't think they are schismatics just by being Old-Calendarists. When they actually break communion and proclaim the rest of the Church schismatic, the groups that do this, by this very action, become schismatic.

Well, without necessarily disagreeing with you about your point, I nonetheless would say that maybe we don't need to rub stuff in the faces of old calendarists one hour, while getting intimate with non-Orthodox the next. If we're going to be all irenic and respectful and ecumenically-toned, then let's be consistently so.
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« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2011, 02:45:48 PM »

That we both made mistakes and both need to move towards reconciliation I agree with, but I think it can be argued even from only RC sources that Orthodoxy has less moving to do than Catholicism does. I also agree that we need to talk more, but not in such a way where we try to come to some lowest common denominator agreement or compromise. If we disagree then we need to be honest about that.

Agree!

We also need to stop attacking those who are more conservative and less eager to move towards reconciliation, for whatever reason. Calling old calendarist Orthodox graceless schismatics while treating Catholics like the love of your life does nothing to help reconciliation with either group.

Again agree. But do such people even exist (I mean those who call old calendarist Orthodox something bad and suimultaneously show love for Catholics)? I just can't conceive of something like this.
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« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2011, 02:46:37 PM »

Fabio, I apologize for my earlier remark.

I pray this is irony.

Sex tourism? lulz. Like most of the OW, most of the women I know from Brazil are glad to get out and find an American man.



There is a big difference between people (man and women) in all countries who have a crush on foreigners for the "glamour" they have for just being foreigners, and sex tourism. For one, in a real "foreigner crush" the foreigner also falls in love with the local and they have a loving mature relationship. "Foreigner crush" is ok and that's not what the campaign is about. Even if they have just a "hot affair", if between consenting adults it's not sex tourism.

Sex tourism is the industry of prostitution, and often, children prostitution. Women and girls (but also some young men and boys) are abused in a dark market to service pervets. True, locals also use prostitutes, but in the main touristic cities, it's foreigners (from all over the world, not just one country) that foment it the most. The additional problem with foreigners is precisely that people usually don't have to travel abroad to get "usual" prostitutes, that is, adult women. When a person seeks it in another country it's because the person is seeking something that is considered a more serious crime in their home country. Usually, they are pedophiles and/or violent men.
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« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2011, 02:47:44 PM »

Part of the West, namely North America (at least North of Mexico) is autocephalous.

According to some, not all.
Then Constantinople, the Church of Greece, Serbia and Romania can join North America back again under the Pope of Rome.

Simply because they disagree with your view of OCA autocephaly?? That seems rather harsh. Unlikely the OCA, those churches do have universally-recognised autocephaly. In any case, union with Rome is by no means certain. Hypothetical or no hypothetical, the cart does not go before the horse.
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« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2011, 02:49:04 PM »

like I said, so much for the submission of the will and assent of faith to the "magisterium."

This is why I put in my post "at least a number of cardinals". I know the definition says "without the consent of the church", but it wouldn't hurt him to have the other bishops in communion with him be united with thim.
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« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2011, 02:53:16 PM »

Fabio, I apologize for my earlier remark.

No problem Iconodule, we are as guilty as the abusers because we let the association to happen.

Yeah, most Brazilian women I know would agree. Except for that abuser part being Brazilians, not "sex" tourists.

On a comment not related to sex tourism, probably, most Brazilian women you know are the ones who actually married or had a relationship with your fellow countrymen. Brazil suffers the hegemony of liberal and progressive ideas and, unfortunately, many people just follows the silly liberal "anti-american" discourse and would not marry an American just for being American. Well, maybe if he was *very* liberal and had conspirationist theories about American imperialism as well.

But then again, consenting relationships between adults is not what sex tourism is about.
  
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« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2011, 02:58:53 PM »

Fabio, I apologize for my earlier remark.

I pray this is irony.

Sex tourism? lulz. Like most of the OW, most of the women I know from Brazil are glad to get out and find an American man.



There is a big difference between people (man and women) in all countries who have a crush on foreigners for the "glamour" they have for just being foreigners, and sex tourism. For one, in a real "foreigner crush" the foreigner also falls in love with the local and they have a loving mature relationship. "Foreigner crush" is ok and that's not what the campaign is about. Even if they have just a "hot affair", if between consenting adults it's not sex tourism.

Sex tourism is the industry of prostitution, and often, children prostitution. Women and girls (but also some young men and boys) are abused in a dark market to service pervets. True, locals also use prostitutes, but in the main touristic cities, it's foreigners (from all over the world, not just one country) that foment it the most. The additional problem with foreigners is precisely that people usually don't have to travel abroad to get "usual" prostitutes, that is, adult women. When a person seeks it in another country it's because the person is seeking something that is considered a more serious crime in their home country. Usually, they are pedophiles and/or violent men.

Just a bit of a hysterical jump to go from a humorous comment about pointing out one of the largest RC nations in the world which would thus become one of the largest EO nations in the world and the number of women who would become thus become "kosher" for "real" Orthodox marriage to SEX TOURISM. If you haven't seen, the Orthodox numbers in the US are quite small.

There is "sex tourism" down the street from me. It is called prostitution. Oh yeah, and men seek them out for the same reasons.

Sheeesh.
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« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2011, 03:02:19 PM »

Fabio, I apologize for my earlier remark.

No problem Iconodule, we are as guilty as the abusers because we let the association to happen.

Yeah, most Brazilian women I know would agree. Except for that abuser part being Brazilians, not "sex" tourists.

On a comment not related to sex tourism, probably, most Brazilian women you know are the ones who actually married or had a relationship with your fellow countrymen. Brazil suffers the hegemony of liberal and progressive ideas and, unfortunately, many people just follows the silly liberal "anti-american" discourse and would not marry an American just for being American. Well, maybe if he was *very* liberal and had conspirationist theories about American imperialism as well.

But then again, consenting relationships between adults is not what sex tourism is about.
 

Your reactionary comment not mine. Might want to think your "leap" through a little bit.

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