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Author Topic: Met. Hilarion urges Roman Catholic Pope to set up conference w/Pat. Kirill / Orthodox leader urges Vatican to resolve dispute  (Read 5068 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2011, 07:25:37 PM »

Isa, you screwed up your quote boxes- those weren't from Robb, they were from Elijahmaria. Try and pay attention.
Physician, heal thyself.
So what does the ROC want the Greek Catholics to do, hand over their churches to the Orthodox (Or possibly join up with them)?  Not going to happen anytime soon.

Ecumenism is important, but not at the expense of selling out those who remained loyal to Catholicism for decades of state suppression under communism (Centuries if you count the persecution of the Czar's).  The Greek Catholic Church is back and here to stay, so the Russians will just have to get used to it.
BTW,  Would it be okay in Moscow's eyes if the Vatican ordered the GCC to give her churches back to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP!  I wonder what would happen if the Pope made that offer to the Patriarch during any future meeting between them?
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« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2011, 08:25:57 PM »




The whole area was in perfect communion with the rest of the Catholic Chruch until 1596
, and a succession of Saints like Met. St. Peter Movila of Kiev, St. Maxim Sandovich and St. Alexis Kabaliuk worked hard to reclaim the lost sheep, for which God glorified them. And the PoM should be bribed to apologize for that?  The Vatican would do better to pen its apologies for Brest rather than its enconium for the state suppression of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Ialmisry, you need to read a good history book.  Galicia did not become Greek Catholic in 1598.
LOL. Got news for you, it didn't submit to the Vatican in 1598 either: it just got a few bishops to sign on the dotted line in a desperate hope to gain priveleges, a time honored apostolic tradition that Judas started with some pieces of silver.

Galicia's entry was signaled by affixing the seal of Bp. Hedeon of L'viv to the "Union of Brest," although he remained in Catholic communion with the rest of the Orthodox until his death in 1607, and took part in the Council of Berestia to oppose the submission to the Vatican.

The Vatican didn't get around to erecting a diocese in L'viv until 1677 (when an Orthodox bishop Varlaam Sheptyskyi left the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church and submitted to the Vatican)-for the adherents to Brest, that is, it named a Latin bishop to L'viv since 1375/1412, and apparently wasn't able to fill it until 1700, when its Orthodox bishop Jozyf Szumanski apostacized and submitted his diocese to the Vatican.

It was not until the the Austrians took over the area that the state-supported Greek Catholic Church was introduced in the 18th century.
The Austrians didn't arrive until 1772.  By then the Vatican had seated its bishops in Galicia and appropited the Orthodox Sees, including having decades earlier destroyed the Orthodox Cathedral of L'viv and built upon it the Vatican's metropolitan's seat, in baroque-rococo, of course.


The Edict of Toleration of the Austrian Empire on paper allowed people to return to Orthodoxy in Galicia.
 
emphasis, on paper. The existence of Talerhof a century and a quarter later, nearly to the end of Habsburg rule, shows how much it stayed on paper.

And there always was one Orthodox Church left open in Lviv to supposedly serve the soldiers of the Austrian Empire who were Orthodox.
documentation?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 08:26:17 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2011, 08:28:03 PM »

Matthew 15:14
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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2011, 08:42:20 PM »


LOL, what?
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« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2011, 08:57:24 PM »

Btw, the figures I see for L'viv is 45% in submission to the Vatican, 31% UOC-KP, 5% UAOC, 3% UOC(MP), 3% other.  So 45% in submission to the Vatican and 39% claiming adherence to Orthodoxy. If this is representative of Western Ukraine as a whole, it means that a) the Vatican is taking more Churches than what is warrented, b) it should be complaining to "Patriarch" Filaret, not Patriarch Kirill.
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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2011, 09:10:39 PM »

Btw, the figures I see for L'viv is 45% in submission to the Vatican, 31% UOC-KP, 5% UAOC, 3% UOC(MP), 3% other.  So 45% in submission to the Vatican and 39% claiming adherence to Orthodoxy. If this is representative of Western Ukraine as a whole, it means that a) the Vatican is taking more Churches than what is warrented, b) it should be complaining to "Patriarch" Filaret, not Patriarch Kirill.

What is "warranted"?
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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2011, 09:43:13 PM »

Btw, the figures I see for L'viv is 45% in submission to the Vatican, 31% UOC-KP, 5% UAOC, 3% UOC(MP), 3% other.  So 45% in submission to the Vatican and 39% claiming adherence to Orthodoxy. If this is representative of Western Ukraine as a whole, it means that a) the Vatican is taking more Churches than what is warrented, b) it should be complaining to "Patriarch" Filaret, not Patriarch Kirill.

What is "warranted"?
In reality, none.  but if one were to grant credence to the Vatican's whining, certainly nothing more than its seizing half would be warranted in Western Ukraine.
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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2011, 10:08:48 PM »

In reality, none.  but if one were to grant credence to the Vatican's whining, certainly nothing more than its seizing half would be warranted in Western Ukraine.

Metropolitan Hilarion is the only one I see whining.   The UGCC is here to stay and after 20 years has decent relations with the UOC-MP, UOC-KP, and UAOC.  Archbishop Sviatslav had a cordial visit with Metropolitan Volodymyr this year.  One wonders why the MP keeps bringing this issue up when its Metropolitan in Kyiv seems to accept the status quo.
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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2011, 10:53:37 PM »

In reality, none.  but if one were to grant credence to the Vatican's whining, certainly nothing more than its seizing half would be warranted in Western Ukraine.

Metropolitan Hilarion is the only one I see whining.   The UGCC is here to stay and after 20 years has decent relations with the UOC-MP, UOC-KP, and UAOC.  Archbishop Sviatslav had a cordial visit with Metropolitan Volodymyr this year.  One wonders why the MP keeps bringing this issue up when its Metropolitan in Kyiv seems to accept the status quo.
could be the continued insistence by the Vatican that for some reason its supreme pontiff has to waltz into Moscow and be embraced by the Patriarch.

Or it could be that the UGCC doesn't insist on being here in L'viv to stay, but runs off East to move in on Kiev, and setting its sights on Moscow.  It doesn't seem many have been fooled further East, so it remains to be seen how long foolishness holds out out West.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 10:56:19 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2011, 06:21:10 AM »

Btw, the figures I see for L'viv is 45% in submission to the Vatican, 31% UOC-KP, 5% UAOC, 3% UOC(MP), 3% other.  So 45% in submission to the Vatican and 39% claiming adherence to Orthodoxy. If this is representative of Western Ukraine as a whole, it means that a) the Vatican is taking more Churches than what is warrented, b) it should be complaining to "Patriarch" Filaret, not Patriarch Kirill.

What is "warranted"?
In reality, none.  but if one were to grant credence to the Vatican's whining, certainly nothing more than its seizing half would be warranted in Western Ukraine.


You may know this - in how many oblasts are Ukrainian Catholics a majority? Other than Lviv?

What is their % in Ivano-Frankisvsk, Ternopil, Zakarpattia?
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« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2011, 09:52:23 AM »

[Ialmisry, you need to read a good history book.  Galicia did not become Greek Catholic in 1598.
LOL. Got news for you, it didn't submit to the Vatican in 1598 either: it just got a few bishops to sign on the dotted line in a desperate hope to gain priveleges, a time honored apostolic tradition that Judas started with some pieces of silver.

Galicia's entry was signaled by affixing the seal of Bp. Hedeon of L'viv to the "Union of Brest," although he remained in Catholic communion with the rest of the Orthodox until his death in 1607, and took part in the Council of Berestia to oppose the submission to the Vatican.

The Vatican didn't get around to erecting a diocese in L'viv until 1677 (when an Orthodox bishop Varlaam Sheptyskyi left the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church and submitted to the Vatican)-for the adherents to Brest, that is, it named a Latin bishop to L'viv since 1375/1412, and apparently wasn't able to fill it until 1700, when its Orthodox bishop Jozyf Szumanski apostacized and submitted his diocese to the Vatican.

It was not until the the Austrians took over the area that the state-supported Greek Catholic Church was introduced in the 18th century.
The Austrians didn't arrive until 1772.  By then the Vatican had seated its bishops in Galicia and appropited the Orthodox Sees, including having decades earlier destroyed the Orthodox Cathedral of L'viv and built upon it the Vatican's metropolitan's seat, in baroque-rococo, of course.


The Edict of Toleration of the Austrian Empire on paper allowed people to return to Orthodoxy in Galicia.
 
emphasis, on paper. The existence of Talerhof a century and a quarter later, nearly to the end of Habsburg rule, shows how much it stayed on paper.

And there always was one Orthodox Church left open in Lviv to supposedly serve the soldiers of the Austrian Empire who were Orthodox.
documentation?
[/quote]

The Orthodox Church existed in Galicia until the Austrians came and closed the last Orthodox Monastery church down in 1785 except for the church in Lviv locally called "The Moldavian Church" because is was bult by or funded by nobles from Bukovyna.  If you look at Austrian census records for Galica, which includes the modern areas of Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk and parts of Ternopil oblasts, you can find statistics for people who registered as Orthodox believers.  For the history of the "Moldavian Church" church in Lviv go to the Lviv eparchy web page..  Sorry, I can;t find it at the moment.
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« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2011, 10:54:33 AM »

This article I am sure will add to our discussion:


Very different reasons stand behind ROC's accusations against the Greek
Catholics

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/open_theme/44340/
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« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2011, 10:55:38 AM »

And you thought this was just a West Ukraine thing:
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/community/land_and_property_problems/44254/
Quote
Three Orthodox Denominations and Svoboda Association Call Zhytomyr Regional Council Not To Transfer Church to UOC-Moscow Patriarchate

Three Orthodox denominations, public organizations and the nationalist association Svoboda called the regional council of the central Ukrainian city of Zhytomyr not to transfer the building of the former Church of the Exaltation of the Cross to the books of the Zhytomyr Eparchy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate.
it gets more interesting
Quote
In the resolution, priests of three denominations, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate, Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church as well as representatives of public organizations call the Zhytomyr Regional Council not to pass at its session tomorrow the decision to transfer the mentioned building to the books of the Zhytomyr Eparchy of UOC-MP. They suggest that the council should postpone any decisions in this regard till the question of one local Orthodox Church in Ukraine is settled.
does the UGCC think it's in the running for the one local Orthodox Church in Ukraine?  Is that why it is setting up shop in Kiev?

and why it is getting involved in disputes outside Galicia?  On the cathedral
Quote
According to Patriarch Archbishop-Major
correct, canonical (according to his supreme pontiff) title put in
Quote
Lubomyr, one can conclude that the UGCC can is ready to clarify this issue, but the Moscow Patriarchate should reasonably provide evidence of why specific churches should belong to them. Attempts to decide on the ownership of churches were made back in the times of conflict between Greek Catholics and the Orthodox in Galicia. I mean the work of the Quadripartite Commission in 1990 (with participation of the Vatican, the UGCC, the ROC and the UOC), but the demands of the Orthodox parties at the time were unacceptable for the Greek Catholics (in particular, the Moscow Patriarchate did not want to return the Greek Catholic St. George Cathedral, the center and most important UGCC shrine until 2004, when the seat of the head of the church was moved to Kyiv. The Russian Orthodox Church also refused to accept the UGCC as a church in the legal and canonical sense; according to their convictions, Greek Catholics could not act as a structure and claim its inheritance of the church which was liquidated in 1946). Because of these and other terms UGCC Metropolitan Volodymyr Sterniuk left the session. The Moscow Patriarchate often mentions this event, in particular Metropolitan Hilarion, but it never voiced the real reason behind the Greek Catholics’ refusal to participate in negotiations.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/open_theme/44340/
So they fought to get St. George's, seized it, appropriated it, and then abandoned it to go to Kiev.  It is also worth noting that St. George's bishop refused to sign the "Union of Brest," so they affixed his seal anyways, and it took over a century before a bishop of L'viv could be enticed to join.  That doesn't explain how the land (after the submission of its bishop, the Church was torn down, like the Polish King had done centuries before to the first one, and a baroque-rococo structure built on the site) was alienated from the Patriarchate of Moscow, to which L'viv belonged.
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« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2011, 11:17:37 AM »

This article I am sure will add to our discussion:


Very different reasons stand behind ROC's accusations against the Greek
Catholics

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/open_theme/44340/

yes, in addition to my quote above
Quote
But in this whole controversy the Moscow Patriarchate stubbornly does not want to notice one very important detail. Speaking of “the defeat of three Orthodox dioceses” conceals the true statistics of Orthodoxy in Galicia. And they are really impressive. Here is the number of Orthodox parishes: in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast there are about 462 parishes (34 UOC-MP, 279 UOC-KP, 149 UAOC), in Lviv Oblast, respectively, 912 (69 UOC-MP, 460 UOC-KP, 383 UAOC) in Ternopil Oblast 663 parishes (125 UOC-MP, 227 UOC-KP, 261 UAOC). For comparison, take the Donetsk Oblast (one of the largest in Ukraine), which has 757 Orthodox communities, or Zhytomyr with 848 parishes and finally Odessa with 684 Orthodox parishes. With so many parishes can there be talk about the defeat of Orthodoxy in Galicia? Statistics show that such centers of “canonical Orthodoxy” as Donetsk or Odesa do not exceed the number of communities “defeated” in the Lviv Oblast, where there are 912 communities.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/open_theme/44340/

This is interesting in comparision with a rather mixed bag article (in the main good), Fr. Robert Taft's Anamnesis, Not Amnesia:The 'Healing Memories' and
the Problem of 'Uniatism' :
Quote
....Russian Orthodox authorities ever since have defended what was done as a canonically legitimate synod of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, that freely and legitimately abolished of the “forced” Union of Brest. To this day they have refused to disclaim or condemn it. The Acts of the synod were published in Ukrainian in Lviv in 1946. In 1982 the Moscow Patriarchate issued bowdlerized (i.e., deliberately doctored) versions in Russian and English for the 45th anniversary of the shameful charade. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was not destroyed but driven underground, to reemerge maimed but still vigorously alive when finally granted freedom in 1989. That time almost the entire Russian Orthodox Church in Western Ukraine, clergy, parishes, and faithful, re-entered the Catholic Church en masse.....
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS238US238&hl=en&q=cache:KCn5bswZTmkJ:http://www.americancatholicpress.org/Father_Taft_Anamnesis_Not_Amnesia.html+Taft+amnesia,+not+amnesia&ct=clnk

Since RISU can be counted on to inflate figures in favor of submission to the Vatican and downplay the Orthodox, we have 2,037 Orthodox parishes in the Western oblasts by their recogning. The Vatican claims 4,175 for the whole Ukrainian Major Archbishoprick.  Now if all those parishes in submission were in West Ukraine (and they are not: the Archbishop-Major has parishes in Poland and Diaspora, and is busy building new ones in Eastern Ukraine), that still leaves at least a third of the population Orthodox.  It is seems that the "entire Russian Orthodox Church in Western Ukraine" did NOT leave Orthodoxy. Indeed, with 228 parishes, many did not even leave the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2011, 11:52:34 AM »

The plot thickens
Quote
In official Church documents the term Ecclesia Ruthena unita was used to designate the UGCC. From 1960 in official documents the name Ukrainian Catholic Church appears in relation to the Ukrainian Catholics of the diaspora and the Church in Soviet Ukraine, underground at that time. In the pontifical statistical annual Annuario Pontificio the name Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Byzantine rite is used. At the Synod of Bishops of the UGCC (in September 1999) it was suggested to use the name Kyivan Catholic Church, which would underline the identity of this Church
http://www.ugcc.org.ua/30.0.html?&L=2
Quote
Though Constantinople and Rome had their disputes, the Kyivan hierarchy tried to work for Christian unity. Representatives from Rus participated in the Western Councils of Lyon (1245) and Constance (1418). Isidore, the Metropolitan of Kyiv, was himself one of the creators of the Union of Florence (1439).

While the Kyivan Metropolitanate was working towards reunion, a new metropolitanate arose north of Kyiv, in Moscow. The Church of Moscow refused to accept the Union of Florence and separated from the ancient metropolitanate in Kyiv, announcing its autocephaly (self-governing status) in 1448. In 1589, with Greek Orthodoxy and Constantinople subject to Turkish domination, the Church of Moscow became a patriarchate.
http://www.ugcc.org.ua/31.0.html?&L=2
A bit of revisionism: that "new metropolitanate" was the ancient metropolitanate of Kiev, which has been translated by the Galician Met. St. Peter of Kiev to Moscow.  It is interesting how it is quick to point out that Isidore was Metropolitan of Kiev and was one of the creators of the union of florence, but don't seem aware of the fact that Isodore never set foot in Kiev: he was off north in Moscow.
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« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2011, 12:46:58 PM »

In reality, none.  but if one were to grant credence to the Vatican's whining, certainly nothing more than its seizing half would be warranted in Western Ukraine.

Metropolitan Hilarion is the only one I see whining.   The UGCC is here to stay and after 20 years has decent relations with the UOC-MP, UOC-KP, and UAOC.  Archbishop Sviatslav had a cordial visit with Metropolitan Volodymyr this year.  One wonders why the MP keeps bringing this issue up when its Metropolitan in Kyiv seems to accept the status quo.

Pardon my saying so, but one does not wonder at all.  Well...perhaps this one wonders why others have not caught on to the fact that not every Slav is a Russian, in the eyes of every Slav. 

What is the pithy saying "letting go and letting God"...not..."letting go and giving it to the MP"
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« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2011, 01:21:26 PM »

In reality, none.  but if one were to grant credence to the Vatican's whining, certainly nothing more than its seizing half would be warranted in Western Ukraine.

Metropolitan Hilarion is the only one I see whining.   The UGCC is here to stay and after 20 years has decent relations with the UOC-MP, UOC-KP, and UAOC.  Archbishop Sviatslav had a cordial visit with Metropolitan Volodymyr this year.  One wonders why the MP keeps bringing this issue up when its Metropolitan in Kyiv seems to accept the status quo.

Pardon my saying so, but one does not wonder at all.  Well...perhaps this one wonders why others have not caught on to the fact that not every Slav is a Russian, in the eyes of every Slav. 

What is the pithy saying "letting go and letting God"...not..."letting go and giving it to the MP"
Was there a point in there somewhere? The gibberish being thicker than usual, it is hard to see.

The UGCC calling itself the "Kyivan Patriarchate" and abandoning it mother church that it had seized out west and establishing a beachhead in Kiev, isn't the status quo, and I don't know of Met. Volodymyr accepting it.  What is the UGCC up to? Roll Eyes "Give him an inch, and he will take a mile." That's a pithy saying too.
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« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2011, 11:30:59 PM »

Quote
— In one interview you said you want to follow Metropolitan Sheptytsky’s example and visit every parish. Is there at least a rough plan for these visits? And where will the focus be: in eastern Ukraine, central Ukraine, Galicia, or foreign metropolitanates?

– There is a certain logic, but so for no clear plan. First of all, I would like to visit all our eparchies. After visiting the eparchies, I would like to visit all our monasteries, and then parishes. As for the plan, it will be sent by the Lord God.  

I would like to begin my visits in eastern Ukraine. I had planned for the first visit to be to the Odesa-Crimea Exarchate in early December. But it so happened that due to various events I have already visited the Lviv Archeparchy, the Stryi Eparchy, and on the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul I visited the Sokal and Zhovkva Eparchy. In mid-August I will visit the Eparchy of Przemysl, then the Sambir and Drohobych Eparchy. In late August I will visit Argentina, which will commemorate the 50th anniversary of the arrival of the first bishop, and I will present them to the new Apostolic Administrator; in early August I will visit England, where I will present the new exarch; in late September I will visit the Chicago Eparchy, which will celebrate the 50th anniversary of its founding; in November I will visit the Philadelphia Eparchy, and then Stamford. So that's a very intensive plan, but it is based around important events and anniversaries that I have been invited to. I try to answer them promptly.  
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/interview/43376/

Why all this immediate interest from the Archbishop-Major in the East, where his ecclesial community has NEVER had a stronghold? Btw, his Archbishoprick-Major, which he calls a patriarchate, lays claim to this

although in its millenium history the Vatican only could claim ownership for 36 years, and even during that time it never had effective control.  The Orthodox built it, and rebuilt it, and yet the UGCC claims it.
Quote
— The UGCC has many problems in acquiring land for building churches in eastern and southern Ukraine. How do you evaluate this situation and how do you intend to act in this situation?  

– I handle this situation very calmly. It is not necessary to ideologize, but to work clearly and effectively. Maybe our church is not well known in these regions, and when a request to allocate land is denied, maybe the decision is made ??out of ignorance or misunderstanding by people who wonder who the Greek Catholics are, why they are here and what they will do.
some of us have no such questions
Quote
First we must make ourselves known to the administrative bodies. This question concerns not only our church but all churches, because it concerns the issue of equal treatment of all faiths in Ukraine, which His Beatitude Lubomyr and the All-Ukrainian Council of Churches and Religious Organizations have said repeatedly.  

We need to work very calmly, methodically and professionally, in accordance with the legislation. All churches and religious organizations should cooperate to improve this legislation so that it promotes, not hinders, our ultimate goal: to serve the people of Ukraine and make them more Christian.
uh-huh.

and on that West, which they have worked so hard to seize
Quote
— Let’s move from the issue of the east to the issue of the west. After the See of the patriarch was transferred to Kyiv, Lviv felt that it lost a certain status. How can Lviv avoid this provincialization in the context of the UGCC?  

— Once Father Dr. Ivan Muzychka said that the Ukrainian Rome became a province when the head of church moved from the city. Can you imagine Rome as a province? Perhaps such feelings are now in Lviv, as being the center of the church gives another tone, or perhaps another quality of the church life. I try to be in constant contact with Bishop Ihor Vozniak, Archbishop of Lviv, and I visit Lviv frequently. In addition, part of the structure of the Patriarchal Curia operates in Lviv. We cannot move the entire curia to Kyiv, and there is no need for it. We will strive to further mobilize our social and religious life in Lviv so that Lviv remains an important spiritual, religious center of our church.

And very interesting, given all the harping about Moscow having jurisdiction over Kiev:
Quote
— How can we develop our cooperation with the Mukachevo Eparchy? What ways can we further develop our coexistence within one state? Say recently in Transcarpathia an association was formed that seeks to promote the idea that within the Ukrainian state there should be one Catholic Church. They do not try to fight aggressively but are engaged in education. We also know that the Mukachevo Eparchy has its own interesting traditions, with which they can enrich us and we can somehow enrich them. But people still consider the relationship to be a bit strange. How do you see the situation now and in the future?

– I would like to move this issue from a purely ideological issue to an issue of the church. Today we try to foster constructive contacts with Bishop Milan, the ruling bishop of Mukachevo Eparchy, and thus cooperate with the eparchy at all levels. For his part, Bishop Milan is a member of the Synod of Bishops of the Kyiv-Halych Metropolitanate, and he is actively involved in the discussion of pastoral care, and moreover is also involved in its implementation. As such the lives of our eparchies are being synchronized.

On our part, we try to participate in the life of Mukachevo Eparchy. For example, recently we celebrated the anniversary of the arrival Pope John Paul II to Ukraine, and although I could not go to Zakarpattia for the celebration of the 10th anniversary of the beatification of Blessed Theodore Romzha of Mukachevo because there were very important events in Lviv, on our behalf the archbishop of Lviv – the second most respected person in our church – took part.

So we try to nurture the relationship between the UGCC and the Mukachevo Eparchy and to develop it. It is obvious that the very development of our church over time will lead to a stronger unity. Unity de jure always comes after unity de facto. This is very important to us. I think that is the direction in which we need to continue moving.  
Mukachevo is in the Ruthenian church, another, seperate "sui juris church," as is the "Apostolic Exarchate in the Czech Republic," which the UGCC has also interfered in, although Mukachevo and the Exarchate are directly subject to the Vatican.

Quote
For the next question, I think we should reflect on and actively implement the strategy outlined by His Beatitude Lubomyr in his programmatic sermon: “One people of God on the land of the hills of Kyiv.” I have repeatedly quoted this for it touched me as a theologian and an academic. When His Beatitude Lubomyr was preparing to transfer the See to Kyiv, in one speech he outlined a path that we must take. And this is the task that is set forth before our church. This is the way from denominational opposition to the primacy of love, from church exclusivism to communion. I will not look for something else now. I would really like to realize His Beatitude’s vision.  
"One people of God on the land of the hills of Kyiv" indeed.


There is a clash of visions:
Quote
— Culture experts say there is no question more difficult than the question of identity. Greek Catholics hear many definitions of their church, for example, that we are Eastern rite Catholics, or Eastern Catholics, or Orthodox in communion with Rome, or maybe even other formulations. Which wording do you think is the most accurate?

First, our identity is the identity of Kyivan Christianity during Volodymyr's baptism, when the newly established church on the lands of Kyivan Rus’ was a subsidiary of the Church of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and, on the other hand, in communion with the Apostolic See. Our identity is a testimony of the church when Christianity was not divided. Though after all the dramatic events, this identity of our church faced various dangers throughout history and sometimes was not even recognized as a church.  

Today, in the third millennium, we also strive to live this identity. So, on the one hand, we strive to further discover and learn about the roots of the church, which was born from St. Volodymyr’s baptism, which is a national church, which is a church of the Eastern tradition according to not only its rites but also its spirituality, canonical and theological heritage. But on the other hand, it is a church that cherishes its communion with the Roman Apostolic See.  
Not even Galicia in its heyday of King Danylo cared for nor sought communion with the Vatican, let alone Kiev.
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« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2011, 12:25:33 AM »


The UGCC calling itself the "Kyivan Patriarchate" and abandoning it mother church that it had seized out west and establishing a beachhead in Kiev, isn't the status quo, and I don't know of Met. Volodymyr accepting it.  What is the UGCC up to? Roll Eyes "Give him an inch, and he will take a mile." That's a pithy saying too.

Yea...well just stomp on it...That's your solution.
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« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2011, 06:06:25 AM »


The UGCC calling itself the "Kyivan Patriarchate" and abandoning it mother church that it had seized out west and establishing a beachhead in Kiev, isn't the status quo, and I don't know of Met. Volodymyr accepting it.  What is the UGCC up to? Roll Eyes "Give him an inch, and he will take a mile." That's a pithy saying too.

Yea...well just stomp on it...That's your solution.
You do kill a snake by stomping on its head, not by grabbing it by the tail.

“One people of God on the land of the hills of Kyiv.” One, not many.  In Kiev, not L'viv.  A pretty straightforward existential issue, or should I say challenge: don't tell us he has dropped his gloves when he has thrown down the gauntlet.

Of course the solution is to convert the wayward sheep back to the True flock, but I assUme that you wouldn't find that acceptable, so why pretend?  The Archbishop-Major plays patriarch and helps himself to another "sui juris church"-yours in fact-placing the Vatican's Mukachevo eparchy (directly under its curia) in his holy synod. Don't think that is according to the rules of the CCEO. In fact, I know it is not.  If the Vatican is willing to look the other way for "the greater good," Moscow and Orthodoxy is under no such obligation.
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« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2011, 10:26:28 AM »


The UGCC calling itself the "Kyivan Patriarchate" and abandoning it mother church that it had seized out west and establishing a beachhead in Kiev, isn't the status quo, and I don't know of Met. Volodymyr accepting it.  What is the UGCC up to? Roll Eyes "Give him an inch, and he will take a mile." That's a pithy saying too.

Yea...well just stomp on it...That's your solution.
You do kill a snake by stomping on its head, not by grabbing it by the tail.

“One people of God on the land of the hills of Kyiv.” One, not many.  In Kiev, not L'viv.  A pretty straightforward existential issue, or should I say challenge: don't tell us he has dropped his gloves when he has thrown down the gauntlet.

Of course the solution is to convert the wayward sheep back to the True flock, but I assUme that you wouldn't find that acceptable, so why pretend?  The Archbishop-Major plays patriarch and helps himself to another "sui juris church"-yours in fact-placing the Vatican's Mukachevo eparchy (directly under its curia) in his holy synod. Don't think that is according to the rules of the CCEO. In fact, I know it is not.  If the Vatican is willing to look the other way for "the greater good," Moscow and Orthodoxy is under no such obligation.

Well...your ilk has stomped us out in the past and really all you've done is make saints of us.  We don't seem to go away so perhaps you'd like to gift us with more saints and martyrs...apparently so...since you don't like to play games.... angel angel angel

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« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2011, 11:08:20 AM »


The UGCC calling itself the "Kyivan Patriarchate" and abandoning it mother church that it had seized out west and establishing a beachhead in Kiev, isn't the status quo, and I don't know of Met. Volodymyr accepting it.  What is the UGCC up to? Roll Eyes "Give him an inch, and he will take a mile." That's a pithy saying too.

Yea...well just stomp on it...That's your solution.
You do kill a snake by stomping on its head, not by grabbing it by the tail.

“One people of God on the land of the hills of Kyiv.” One, not many.  In Kiev, not L'viv.  A pretty straightforward existential issue, or should I say challenge: don't tell us he has dropped his gloves when he has thrown down the gauntlet.

Of course the solution is to convert the wayward sheep back to the True flock, but I assUme that you wouldn't find that acceptable, so why pretend?  The Archbishop-Major plays patriarch and helps himself to another "sui juris church"-yours in fact-placing the Vatican's Mukachevo eparchy (directly under its curia) in his holy synod. Don't think that is according to the rules of the CCEO. In fact, I know it is not.  If the Vatican is willing to look the other way for "the greater good," Moscow and Orthodoxy is under no such obligation.

Well...your ilk has stomped us out in the past and really all you've done is make saints of us.  We don't seem to go away so perhaps you'd like to gift us with more saints and martyrs...apparently so...since you don't like to play games....
Evidently your curia for canonization does:
Quote
I admit, that I too was concerned about the cause of Union and that it would be imprudent to abandon it; but it had never occurred to me that your Eminence would implement it using such violent measures... You say that you are "free to drown the infidels (i.e. those who have not accepted the Unia - L.P.), to chop their heads off"; etc. Not so! The Lord's commandment expresses a strict prohibition to all, which concerns you also. When you violated human conscience, closed churches so that people would perish like infidels without divine service, without Christian rites and sacraments; when you abused King's favors and privileges -- you managed without us; but when there is a need to suppress seditions caused by your excesses you want us to cover up for you... As to the dangers that threaten your life, one may say that everyone is the cause of one's own misfortune. Stop making trouble, do not subject us to the general hatred of the people and yourself to obvious danger and general criticism... Everywhere one hears people grumbling that you do not have any worthy priests, but only blind ones... Your ignorant priests are the bane of the people... But tell me, your Eminence, whom did you win over, whom did you attract with your severity... It will turn out that in Polotsk itself you have lost even those who until now were obedient to you. You have turned sheep into goats, you plunged the state into danger, and maybe all of us Catholics -- into ruin... It has been rumored that they (the Orthodox) would rather be under the infidel Turks than endure such violence... you yourself are the cause of their rebellion. Instead of joy, your notorious Union brought us only troubles and discords and has become so loathsome that we would rather be without it!
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=216.msg103045#msg103045


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« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2011, 12:56:30 PM »

It seems divide and conquer is alive and well at CWN:
http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/news-bottommenu-101/3302-ukrainian-catholic-orthodox-leaders-talk-of-easing-tensions-
Quote
CWNews.com - Major Archbishop
Note, NOT Patriarch
Quote
Sviatoslav Shevchuk of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church met on August 23 with the leader of the Russian-backed Ukrainian Orthodox Church
why is MajorAbp. Shevchuk not the "Vatican-backed Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church"?
Quote
for a friendly conversation that contrasted with past bitter exchanges between the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox hierarchies...The Ukrainian Catholic Church—the largest of the Eastern churches in communion with the Holy See—has frequently been the focus of complaints from Orthodox leaders, especially in Moscow.
Especially is rather relative, as ALL the Orthodox Churches, their primates and leaders, have complained:
Quote
When Eastern Orthodox leaders met in Istanbul for the first time in a millennium to claim a new, more assertive role for their church, they achieved a remarkable degree of unity with one another. But their joint decree last week revealed a serious disagreement with other Christians.

After decades of "pitiless persecutions" under the communists, the primates insisted angrily, the Orthodox Church was entitled to respect from fellow Christians. Instead, Catholics and "certain Protestant Fundamentalists" have been poaching souls on what the Orthodox Church considers its own turf. The primates are especially upset that Pope John Paul II named five bishops in the former Soviet Union without consulting Russian Orthodox leaders. Bitter disputes have also erupted with Eastern Rite Catholics, notably in Ukraine and Romania.

Nonetheless, the primates decided not to condemn Catholicism. They believe that they have friends at the Vatican, although some wonder privately if Pope John Paul can be considered one of them.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,975200,00.html
back to CWN
Quote
After years of Communist repression, the Ukrainian Catholic Church burst vigorously into public life after the fall of the Soviet regime. The Russian Orthodox Church has complained about this Catholic activity in a land that the Moscow patriarchate regards as its own “canonical territory.”
ALL of Orthodoxy, much to the chagrin of the UOC-KP and the UAOC, regards the land as the canonical territory of the Moscow patriarchate, something that has been reiterated several times by the autocephalous primates singularly and jointly, recently and over the past two decades.
Quote
Ukrainian Catholic leaders, in turn, demanded the return of Catholic parish churches that had been confiscated during the Stalinist persecution and handed over to local Orthodox communities.
"Ukrainian Catholic leaders" also demand-and seized-Churches confiscated during the Polish-Lithuanian-Habsburg-Hungarian persecusion and handed over to the local communities of the Vatican-both Ukrainian, Ruthenian and Latin, along with parish churches that had been built during the Stalinist/communist persecution.  As I linked earlier in this thread, the UGCC has recently interjected itself into disputes over property in Central Ukraine and Kiev itself, and has claimed St. Sophia Cathedral of Kiev itself.  I'd be curious as to what "local UGCC" community existed in Kiev 1633 to the present, and in Central Ukraine.  We know that Orthodox communities persisted in Galicia, throughout the Polish-Lithuanian-Habsburg-Hungarian persecusion, despite their properties being confiscated.
Quote
The Orthodox Church in Ukraine is also divided

The UGCC in Ukraine is also divided, with the "Priestly Society of St. Josaphat," the Pidhirtsi fathers and their "Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church," and the debate over the Ruthenian "sui juris church," especially over the Eparchy of Mukachevo.  Then there is that "patriachate-major archbishop" debate going on with the Vatican.
Quote
with Metropolitan Volodymyr heading the group that has maintained its alliance with Moscow.
Met. Volodymyr heads the group that has maintained communion with the rest of the episcopate in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.

Quote
Another group, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kiev patriarchate, is headed by Patriarch Filaret.
That is like saying "another group, the  Priestly Society of Saint Josaphat, was founded in league with Abp. Marcel Lefebvre."
Quote
Once recognized by Moscow as the Metropolitan of Ukraine
Lefebvre was once recognized by the Vatican as Archbishop of Arcadiopolis in Europa and Synnada in Phrygia (interesting that both sees are in the Ecumencial Patriarchate), as well as the Vatican's delegate to West Africa and its Metropolitan Archbishop of Dakar, and its vicar there.
Quote
Filaret broke away from the Russian Orthodox Church to establish a separate Ukrainian patriarchate after the country won independence
Actually, Filaret was deposed by Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and replaced by Met. Volodymyr.  Before independence, the deposed Filaret had been Metropolitan and suppressed any expression of Ukrainian culture in the Church.

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« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2011, 01:07:06 PM »

The UGCC in Ukraine is also divided, with the "Priestly Society of St. Josaphat," the Pidhirtsi fathers and their "Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church," and the debate over the Ruthenian "sui juris church," especially over the Eparchy of Mukachevo.  Then there is that "patriachate-major archbishop" debate going on with the Vatican.


With the possible exception of the PSSJ, those divisions are not the same nor are they even close to being on the same level as the UOC-KP v. UOC-MP
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« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2011, 04:44:49 PM »

I had originally been posting a response to Deacon Lance on this very issue, when the threads were merged and consequently the post was lost.  I was too tired to redo all of it.  But since it has been brought up, are any of those married priests in Poland that Deacon Lance is so quick to mention, are any of them in the "New Lands" of Poland, where most Ukrainians, in submission or Orthodox, are located?

Yes.  The UGCC in Poland is a Metropolia covering the entire country consisting of the Archeparchy of Prezmysl-Warsaw and the Eparchy of Wroclaw-Gdansk.

Deacon Lance wants to bribe an apology out of the Patriarchate of Moscow over Brest.  Did the Vatican apology for Brest?

No, not really.  I just want Catholics to stop giving money to the MP.  If the MP wants to deny culpability for the pseudo-synods of Lviv and Uzhorod and deny our right to exist, fine, just don't ask us for donations while doing so.
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« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2011, 05:09:26 PM »

yes, right after the Greek ones were exterminated.  The Albanian bishops, aren't they in the Italian Episcopal Conference? I seem to have missed their spirited defense of the Romanians. 

The Eparchies of Lungro and Piana degli Albanesi and the Exarchal Monastery of Grottaferrata form a seperate Inter-eparchial Synod.  They attend the Italian Episcopal Conference just as our bishops here attend the USCCB but remain members of their respective Synods.
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« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2011, 05:20:29 PM »

Btw, the seized properties and Churches include those built by the PoM since 1947, besides those stolen in 1596 which were recovered.

The Soviets allowed the MP to build churches?  That is not the story the MP tells.  Also how many churches built in the 1500's do you think were still standing in 1946?  I'll give you a hint not many, by then the vast majority of Greek Catholic parishes had been built by Greek Catholics with Hapsburg money or their own.
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« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2011, 06:08:41 PM »

The UGCC calling itself the "Kyivan Patriarchate" and abandoning it mother church that it had seized out west and establishing a beachhead in Kiev, isn't the status quo, and I don't know of Met. Volodymyr accepting it.  What is the UGCC up to? Roll Eyes "Give him an inch, and he will take a mile." That's a pithy saying too.

The first 16 primates of the UGCC were Metropolitans of Kyiv.  From 1808 to 1838 there were two metropolitans one in Kyiv and one in Lviv.  Only with the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church in the Russian Empire in 1838 did the UGCC See in Kyiv cease to operate.  Lviv remains an Archeparchy.  The Archeparchy of Kyiv counts 240,000 faithul and 51 parishes.  As the captial of Ukraine it makes perfect sense for the primate to move his See there, kinda like that Romanian Orthodox bishop setting up his See in Rome.  And since Ukraine is a free country the UGCC can and should be able to go anywhere, there are plenty of atheists around to evangelize. 
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« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2011, 07:45:35 PM »

yes, right after the Greek ones were exterminated.  The Albanian bishops, aren't they in the Italian Episcopal Conference? I seem to have missed their spirited defense of the Romanians. 

The Eparchies of Lungro and Piana degli Albanesi and the Exarchal Monastery of Grottaferrata form a seperate Inter-eparchial Synod.  They attend the Italian Episcopal Conference just as our bishops here attend the USCCB but remain members of their respective Synods.
I still missed their spirited defense of the Romanians in the Italian Episcopal Conference.
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« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2011, 07:45:35 PM »

The UGCC in Ukraine is also divided, with the "Priestly Society of St. Josaphat," the Pidhirtsi fathers and their "Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church," and the debate over the Ruthenian "sui juris church," especially over the Eparchy of Mukachevo.  Then there is that "patriachate-major archbishop" debate going on with the Vatican.


With the possible exception of the PSSJ, those divisions are not the same nor are they even close to being on the same level as the UOC-KP v. UOC-MP
Your point is valid: however, on the level of world Orthodoxy, they are on the same level: the UOC(MP) is in communion with everyone and the UOC-KP is in communion with no one.  Actually, the PSSJ is ahead in that, as they are in communinon with the SSPX.  I expect that with the passing of "Pat." Filaret, much of the problem will be possibly diffused, if wise heads prevail.  Whether the problem is then solved or not will depend on the UOC-KP, UOC and the Patriarch of Moscow, unfortunately not guarenteed.
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« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2011, 07:45:35 PM »

I had originally been posting a response to Deacon Lance on this very issue, when the threads were merged and consequently the post was lost.  I was too tired to redo all of it.  But since it has been brought up, are any of those married priests in Poland that Deacon Lance is so quick to mention, are any of them in the "New Lands" of Poland, where most Ukrainians, in submission or Orthodox, are located?

Yes.  The UGCC in Poland is a Metropolia covering the entire country consisting of the Archeparchy of Prezmysl-Warsaw and the Eparchy of Wroclaw-Gdansk.
I am aware of that. That was not the question I asked.  I asked if they were common not in the regions near the Ukrainian border, but where the Ukrainians have been dispersed amongst the Poles?

I am aware that, much like making itself a patriarchate, the UGCC has taken that it can ignore the Vatican's directive on this.
Quote
from the Vatican, March 4, 1998

To His Most Reverend Excellency
Bishop Jozef Kowalczuk
Apostolic Nuncio
Warsaw, Poland

Most Reverend Excellency:

You well know with what care the Holy See follows the fate of the Catholic Church of the Byzantine-Ukrainian Rite in this country. After the collapse of communism, the Catholics of this rite have also been able to manifest their religious membership freely. For its part, the Apostolic See has provided an adequate ecclesiastical reorganization.

The present situation causes new problems, which must be addressed and resolved in a spirit of collegiality among the ordinaries of the said rite, the Polish Bishops Conference and the Holy See.

I refer to the pastoral activity in Poland of a few married priests, theoretically incardinated in dioceses which are found in the territory of the republic of Ukraine.

On behalf of the holy father, I have the honor of communicating to you the following, asking that you convey it to their Excellencies, the Ordinaries of Przemysl-Warsaw and Wroclaw-Gdansk:

1) The bishops of the Byzantine-Ukrainian Rite cannot unilaterally modify the practice in use, according to which the Greek-Catholic priests in Poland must also maintain the discipline of celibacy. A change of this constant tradition cannot take place without consulting with the Polish Bishops Conference and receiving the authorization of the Holy See.

2) Therefore, the married priests who presently work in Poland must re-enter their dioceses of origin in Ukraine.

3) In the event that there are not a sufficient number of celibate priests, the question could be resolved, by relying on biritual priests. After all, this is a practice already in force.

Thanking you in advance for your valuable cooperation, I take advantage of this opportunity to confirm my sentiments of distinct respect to Your Most Reverend Excellency,

Most Devotedly in Christ,
[signed]
A. Cardinal Sodano
http://www.ukrweekly.com/old/archive/1998/199802.shtml

It was issued publically, no?  Has its retraction been issued publically? Has its retraction been issued?

I'll seen your discussion on this matter when it was issued.  Over a decade later, has anything changed?  Are married men ordained publically outside "the homeland," or are they sent back for ordination and snuck back in?  The power to ordain married men in "the diaspora" is supposedly in the CCEO: has the enabling particular laws been issued yet?  Given the address of the synod of the Vatican's Middle Eastern bishops issued in the Vatican to your supreme pontiff, it would seem not.

Deacon Lance wants to bribe an apology out of the Patriarchate of Moscow over Brest.  Did the Vatican apology for Brest?

No, not really.  I just want Catholics to stop giving money to the MP.  If the MP wants to deny culpability for the pseudo-synods of Lviv and Uzhorod and deny our right to exist, fine, just don't ask us for donations while doing so.
I agree wholeheartedly: if it is just bribery disguised as charity, the MP shouldn't accept the Vatican's silver.

Of course, that is exactly what many accused the Vatican of doing, as it advertized

but of course the apologists of the Vatican howled in protest and called them paranoid.

Heresy and schism have no right to exist.  The MP is without competance to find otherwise.

Very odd this trying to pin culpability on the persecuted MP: who was persecuting the Vatican and the King of Poland into holding the original pseudo-synod of Uzhhorod, and the pseudo-synod of Brest?
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« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2011, 10:54:23 AM »

Btw, the seized properties and Churches include those built by the PoM since 1947, besides those stolen in 1596 which were recovered.

The Soviets allowed the MP to build churches?  That is not the story the MP tells.
 
Oh? What story have you heard, and from whom?

Also how many churches built in the 1500's do you think were still standing in 1946?
Don't know: I do know I posted pictures of one here some where when the issue came up.

Then, as I pointed out, are ones like this:

where the Polish King demolished the original, and the Orthodox rebuilt; the Polish King imposed the "Union of Brest," and the Orthodox resisted; an Orthodox bishop succumbed and submitted to Brest and the UGCC then demolished the Church and built their own baroque-rococo one on top of the Orthodox site.  How did the Cathedral, including its land, become alienated from the Patriarchate of Moscow, to which it belonged, or rather belongs? Such sites I reckon are very many.

I'll give you a hint

IOW, you have no idea.

not many, by then the vast majority of Greek Catholic parishes had been built by Greek Catholics with Hapsburg money or their own.
you have numbers?  Because I do: the population numbered 2.7 when the Habsburgs came and numbered 8 million just before they were driven out. Over half of that was Latin Poles and Jews, who would not be building UGCC parishes.  The "Greek Catholics" numbered at least a million and a half in 1772, 2,342,168 in 1878 and 3 million in 1910 (alongside 400,000 Orthodox at the time) Given the grindng poverty, the number of parishes the peasants could erect would be minimal.  According to the UGCC official report of 1900, it had 1854 parishes for 2,934,278. That's your baseline, as the area avoided much warfare that would destroy Churches until WWI, so although half could logically, based on the population growth, be assUmed to have been built in the Habsburg era, it would seem that most would have been inherited from before.  We know that many went 'doxing, as the authorities began to make a great hue and cry about it.  What happend to their Churches?

http://books.google.com/books?id=XlLcrZlqWqEC&pg=PA59&dq=1900+1854+Greek+Catholic+parishes&hl=en#v=onepage&q=1900%201854%20Greek%20Catholic%20parishes&f=false

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« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2011, 10:54:23 AM »

The UGCC calling itself the "Kyivan Patriarchate" and abandoning it mother church that it had seized out west and establishing a beachhead in Kiev, isn't the status quo, and I don't know of Met. Volodymyr accepting it.  What is the UGCC up to? Roll Eyes "Give him an inch, and he will take a mile." That's a pithy saying too.

The first 16 primates of the UGCC were Metropolitans of Kyiv.
 
No, its first primate Michael Rahoza, by entering schism and adopting heresy, lost title to the see of Kiev. Ironic, as he had been given the title by EP Jeremias II, who had just received jurisdiction over Kiev from the episcopal line of Kiev which had been just then elevated to Patriarch.  He had one successor, Ipotii Potii, who barely was in Kiev if at all.  With the consecration of the illegal but canonical hiearchy, including the Metropolitan of Kiev Job Beretsky, Met. Ipotii's successor Joseph Rutsky retreated to Vilnius, and the "Metropolitans of Kyiv" of the UGCC became quaint bishopls like the Latin Patriarchs that the Vatican appointed for Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem but who never left Rome.

There wasn't much of Kiev in 1596: her restorer, Met. St. Peter Movila, himself was consecrated in L'viv, whose bishops had remained faithful to their vows to uphold Orthodoxy in union with the Four Patriarchs of the Catholic Church in the East.  She has remained vigorous and strong over all Ukraine since then.
The Cossacks and religion in early modern Ukraine By Serhii Plokhy
http://books.google.com/books?id=NCzzxNisc1MC&pg=PA264&dq=Yov+Boretsky+Ukraine+Mohyla&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Rutsky&f=false

From 1808 to 1838 there were two metropolitans one in Kyiv and one in Lviv.
That happened because for nearly a century, the "united" metropolitanate of Kiev not existing in reality, was just added as a title to the bishop of L'vov/Lemberg.  The seperate metropolitanate of Kiev came about because the Czar appointed Irakly Lisovsky as primate of the UGCC, and the Vatican refused to recognize him, recognizing only the bishop of Lemberg, which now lay in Austrian territory and therefore loyal to the Vatican.

Only with the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church in the Russian Empire in 1838 did the UGCC See in Kyiv cease to operate.
The coup de grace:Caesar gave, and Caesar took away, just as the Kaiser took away across the border.  The Vatican had no following there and the Czar no more interest in the Vatican's ambassador (which is what role Met. Iraky performed).  Btw, the UGCC "see of Kiev" had ceased to exist off of paper in 1796.

Lviv remains an Archeparchy.
 
and the real center of the UGCC.

The Archeparchy of Kyiv counts 240,000 faithul and 51 parishes.  As the captial of Ukraine it makes perfect sense for the primate to move his See there,
only if, rather than ministering to his "native" flock, he is attempting to establish a beachhead to stage a coup against the canonical primate of All Ukraine.  It makes perfect sense to take appropriate measures accordingly.

kinda like that Romanian Orthodox bishop setting up his See in Rome.

No, to the Romanians, all Italy is the same: the see was originally in Lucca.  Kiev has never been the home of the UGCC
Quote
Let us remember that until the very last minute the Pope postponed the publication of his two "apostolic messages"—one an appeal to Orthodox Russians, the other addressed to uniate Ukrainians. This left all of the Pope's options open to change their contents in case at the last minute, against all the evidence to the contrary, there was a change in position by the Moscow Patriarchate. [2] All the same, these hopes were not realized and on March 22, 1988 John Paul II published his encyclical on the occasion of the Baptism of Rus: Euntes In Mundus (Go Out to All the World). Reliable sources say that it had been edited at the end of 1987 and was signed on the 15th of January. In other words it was lying in the "out box" for a whole three months. The message expounded in part, with strained reserve, on that which has been said, written, and repeated many times, i.e. the reason why the Roman Church cannot stay on the sidelines during this great event. The Holy Equal-to-the-Apostles Great Prince Vladimir baptized the Russian nation in the streams of the Dnieper in 988. This happened, the Pope assures us, and those of like mind with him, before the division of the Churches, that is before the failing away of the West from the Church in 1054.

On the one hand one might question whom the Vatican hopes to deceive with such trickery, but on the other one can observe here the [ultimate] limits of western formalistic reasoning. Even if we allow Nestor, the chronicler of the Russian land, some poetic license in his embellishments when describing the choosing of a religion by the emissaries of St Vladimir, who can seriously deny that the Russian pagans, through the personage of their prince, chose Byzantine Christianity although they had the possibility of choosing any of the existing religions including any one of the various paths within Christianity. Thus, they in principle deliberately rejected Roman Christianity. The Roman Church had fallen away from ancient Christianity, preserved in Orthodoxy, long before 1054, a date which is simply used for convenience but is in fact actually insignificant. John Paul II was already repeating the point he had stretched in his encyclical of July 2, 1985, Slavorum Apostoli (Apostles to the Slavs), that the apostolic mission of the Brother-Saints Cyril and Methodius was allegedly conducted under the omophorion of both Constantinople and Rome. From this, the Pope draws the direct conclusion that all Slavs, and among them Russians, remain indebted to the Roman Church. This is why the head of the Roman Church considers it his sacred duty to be a benefactor to Russians and other Slavs!
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/vatican_russia.aspx
Btw, the Greeks have their Metropolitan in Venice, as they have had long and continuous links there.  Next it would make more sense to have a center for them in Magna Graeca in Southern Italy, where they were the majority before being exterminated by the Latins.  Though it would make sense for the Episcopal Assembly to be based in Rome, to restore it to Orthodoxy and to union with the Four Patriarchs of the Catholic Church in the East.

And since Ukraine is a free country

that does not make it a "free-for-all."

the UGCC can and should be able to go anywhere,

it never ceases to amaze and amuse how from your supreme pontiff down the Vatican through the one side of its mouth says such things, and then at the same time can from the otherside of its mouth or another orifice, bemoan and bewail the fall of its monopoly in Latin America, and call for action to restore its sole grip there.

there are plenty of atheists around to evangelize. 
in West Ukraine, I'm sure there are, and more the further in Slovkia and the Czech Lands. Which makes the focus eastwards of your patriarch wanna be of All Ukraine and the Vatican all the more transparent.
Quote
After a half-century of silence by the Vatican concerning Uniatism, the unexpected twist of John Paul II to suddenly bring us back to the dark militant epoch of Pius XI, should make us recall the high flown words of Pope Urban VIII, uttered just under four centuries ago in the first years of the forced propagation of Uniatism. "Oh my Rusiny! Through you I hope to obtain the East."
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/vatican_russia.aspx
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« Reply #78 on: September 20, 2011, 02:07:35 AM »

I just came across this.
Quote
Address of UOC (MP) on the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the Lviv Sobor of 1946
Address
of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
to the flock and the Ukrainian people on the occasion of the 60 th anniversary of the return
of the Greek Catholics to the bosom of the Orthodox Church


Sixty years ago, in the first week of Lent (8-10 March 1946) a sobor [“assembly”— editor] of clergy and laity of Ukrainian Catholics of the Eastern rite (UGCC) [Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church— editor] was held. It passed a decree about nullifying the resolutions of the Union of Brest Sobor of 1596, withdrawal from the jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church, return to the Orthodox faith of their forefathers, and joining the Universal Eastern Orthodox Church. The more time passes after the Lviv Sobor of 1946, the more significant its epoch-making decrees prove to be. A high assessment of the decrees of the sobor follows from analysis of the ideology, methods, ways, and consequences of the introduction of the union [of 1596].
http://old.risu.org.ua/eng/resources/reldocs/mp_60years_lvivsobor46/

I thought it might be interesting to contrast it with this
Quote
APOSTOLIC LETTER
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
FOR THE FOURTH CENTENARY
OF THE UNION OF BREST

Dear Brothers and Sisters!

The day is drawing near when the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church will celebrate the fourth centenary of the union between the Bishops of the Metropolia of Kievan Rus' and the Apostolic See. The union was effected at the meeting of representatives of the Metropolia of Kiev with the Pope on 23 December 1595 and was solemnly proclaimed at Brest-Litovsk on the River Bug on 16 October 1596. Pope Clement VIII, in the Apostolic Constitution Magnus Dominus et laudabilis nimis,1 announced the union to the whole Church and in the Apostolic Letter Benedictus sit Pastor2 he addressed the Bishops of the Metropolia, informing them that the union had taken place.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19951112_iv-cent-union-brest_en.html
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« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2011, 01:06:21 PM »

I'm trying to get a number on what kind of numbers we are talking about.

I am looking at both the UGCC and the Ruthenian Mukacheve Eparchy:I'm away that many in UGCC, including it seems its self elevated "patriarch," claim the latter without canonical authority (something that their "supreme pontiff" has reiterated), but being annexed to Soviet Ukraine alongside Polish Ukraine and suppressed in the same campaign, it should be treated as a unit.  More importantly, it is also in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (although like Crimea it is agitating for closer ties to the Patriarchate in Moscow).

Churches in-between: Greek Catholic churches in postsocialist Europe By Stéphanie Mahieu, Vlad Naumescu
http://books.google.com/books?id=L2B3ui8h0zYC&pg=PA90&dq=Greek+Catholic+parishes+1946&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Greek%20Catholic%20parishes%201946&f=false
gives 2,387 parishes and 152 convents, monasteries, missions, etc. in 1938 in Ukraine.

An Orthodox account of Fr. Gabriel Kostel'nik, the priest who played a leading role in the 1946 Synod (who was from the Ruthenians in Serbia, in Vojvodina) mentions in passing 3,431 parishes involved in 1946.

Entry courtesy of Encyclopedia of Rusyn History and Culture
http://www.rusyn.org/relmukachevo.html
gives 289 parishes in Mukachveo in 1949
its official website claims
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS238US238&hl=en&q=cache:Vv36CB4mfkAJ:http://www.mgce.uz.ua/ipost.php?id=1&lang_id=2+greek+catholic+eparchy+of+mukachevo+parishes&ct=clnk
440 churches, 5 monasteries and 2 convents.
and this interesting paragraph:
Quote
At present Orthodox Church (under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate that has never been present in the history of Transcarpathia until the 20th century) in Transcarpathia has over 500 parish communities, 2 eparchies and more than 40 monasteries. Besides 260 of our former church buildings Orthodoxies possess great number of churches built in-between two World Wars and also a significant number of new churches that have been built since 1991.
besides the lie that the jurisdiction of Moscow had never been present in the history of Transcarpathia until the 20th century-it was, for one thing, under the jurisdiction of Isidore of Kiev, who was resident at Moscow-it does at least include mention "great number of Churches built in-between two World Wars," i.e. those formed by the movement of Return to Orthodoxy before 1946, an at least partial (and rare) admition that not all parishes in West Ukraine returned to Orthodoxy only in 1946.
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« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2013, 06:38:56 PM »

The plot thickens
Quote
In official Church documents the term Ecclesia Ruthena unita was used to designate the UGCC. From 1960 in official documents the name Ukrainian Catholic Church appears in relation to the Ukrainian Catholics of the diaspora and the Church in Soviet Ukraine, underground at that time. In the pontifical statistical annual Annuario Pontificio the name Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Byzantine rite is used. At the Synod of Bishops of the UGCC (in September 1999) it was suggested to use the name Kyivan Catholic Church, which would underline the identity of this Church
http://www.ugcc.org.ua/30.0.html?&L=2
Quote
Though Constantinople and Rome had their disputes, the Kyivan hierarchy tried to work for Christian unity. Representatives from Rus participated in the Western Councils of Lyon (1245) and Constance (1418). Isidore, the Metropolitan of Kyiv, was himself one of the creators of the Union of Florence (1439).

While the Kyivan Metropolitanate was working towards reunion, a new metropolitanate arose north of Kyiv, in Moscow. The Church of Moscow refused to accept the Union of Florence and separated from the ancient metropolitanate in Kyiv, announcing its autocephaly (self-governing status) in 1448. In 1589, with Greek Orthodoxy and Constantinople subject to Turkish domination, the Church of Moscow became a patriarchate.
http://www.ugcc.org.ua/31.0.html?&L=2
A bit of revisionism: that "new metropolitanate" was the ancient metropolitanate of Kiev, which has been translated by the Galician Met. St. Peter of Kiev to Moscow.  It is interesting how it is quick to point out that Isidore was Metropolitan of Kiev and was one of the creators of the union of florence, but don't seem aware of the fact that Isodore never set foot in Kiev: he was off north in Moscow.
Just for accuracy, this was overstated.  Met. Isidore did stop at Kiev on his way to Moscow.
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