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Author Topic: Met. Hilarion urges Roman Catholic Pope to set up conference w/Pat. Kirill / Orthodox leader urges Vatican to resolve dispute  (Read 4772 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 12, 2011, 06:47:47 PM »

The meeting hasn't even taken place yet, and it is already the subject of debate. Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev of Volokolamsk called upon Pope Benedict XVI to do what was necessary for a conference to take place between the Roman Catholic Pope and Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Orthodox Church.

From the article:
Quote
In an exclusive interview with Reuters, Russian Orthodox Metropolitan (Archbishop) Hilarion, urged the Vatican to show “some signs” of readiness to resolve a decades-long conflict between Orthodox and Catholics in Ukraine that has been blocking a meeting of the two world religious leaders.
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2011, 07:29:23 PM »

Quote from: the news story
“Not very much was done or is being done in order to solve this problem,” said Hilarion, who is head of the external relations department of the 165-million-member Russian Orthodox Church

How can there be 165 million Russian Orthodox when there are only 145 million Russians?
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 07:49:11 PM »

Quote from: the news story
“Not very much was done or is being done in order to solve this problem,” said Hilarion, who is head of the external relations department of the 165-million-member Russian Orthodox Church

How can there be 165 million Russian Orthodox when there are only 145 million Russians?

Ukraine and elsewhere?
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2011, 07:55:33 PM »

Quote from: the news story
“Not very much was done or is being done in order to solve this problem,” said Hilarion, who is head of the external relations department of the 165-million-member Russian Orthodox Church

How can there be 165 million Russian Orthodox when there are only 145 million Russians?

Ukraine and elsewhere?

Yeah, I guess, I dunno. I suppose if you add them (how many belong to the MP in the Ukraine?), the handful in ROCOR, etc. it might add up to that number.
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2011, 08:27:01 PM »

http://updatednews.ca/2011/09/12/orthodox-leader-urges-vatican-to-resolve-dispute/

Orthodox leader urges Vatican to resolve dispute
Europe Monday, September 12th, 2011

ROME – A senior leader of the Russian Orthodox Church on Monday called
on the Vatican to do more to resolve outstanding disputes so that a
meeting between Pope Benedict and the Russian Patriarch could take place.

In an exclusive interview with Reuters, Russian Orthodox Metropolitan
(Archbishop) Hilarion, urged the Vatican to show “some signs” of
readiness to resolve a decades-long conflict between Orthodox and
Catholics in Ukraine that has been blocking a meeting of the two world
religious leaders.

An unprecedented meeting between Benedict and Patriarch Kirill could
begin to heal the 1,000-year-old rift between the Western and Eastern
branches of Christianity, which split in the Great Schism of 1054.

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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 08:31:15 PM »

Quote from: the news story
“Not very much was done or is being done in order to solve this problem,” said Hilarion, who is head of the external relations department of the 165-million-member Russian Orthodox Church

How can there be 165 million Russian Orthodox when there are only 145 million Russians?
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2011, 08:40:09 PM »

And yet it seems no compromise would be possible..

Everything must be done Moscow's way, or the highway.  At least that's the impression I get, correct me if I'm wrong.. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2011, 08:53:54 PM »

And yet it seems no compromise would be possible..

Everything must be done Moscow's way, or the highway.  At least that's the impression I get, correct me if I'm wrong.. Smiley

This is true, but for good reason. I made a diagram to demonstrate why this is so:

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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2011, 09:23:06 PM »

“Not very much was done or is being done in order to solve this problem,” said Hilarion, who is head of the external relations department of the 165-million-member Russian Orthodox Church and one of the closest aides to Patriarch Kirill.
“As soon as we have this understanding, we will be ready to begin preparations for such a meeting,” he said.
http://updatednews.ca/2011/09/12/orthodox-leader-urges-vatican-to-resolve-dispute/

We have our churches back, so there is no problem.  What the Metropolitan wants is the Pope to sell out the Greek Catholic Churches which is not going to happen.  It is the Russian Orthodox Church that needs the Catholic Church's money, which it never has a problem taking, not the other way around.  I would urge the Pope to refuse to meet with Patriach Kyril and not allow another cent of our money to go his way until he apologizes to the Ukrainian and Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches and puts an end to Orthodox harassment of Catholics in his territory.
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2011, 09:27:35 PM »

And yet it seems no compromise would be possible..

Everything must be done Moscow's way, or the highway.  At least that's the impression I get, correct me if I'm wrong.. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2011, 09:27:36 PM »

How can there be 165 million Russian Orthodox when there are only 145 million Russians?

The Russian Orthodox Church has parishes outside of Russia. lol

If you were sarcastic, slap me.  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2011, 09:27:36 PM »

And yet it seems no compromise would be possible..

Everything must be done Moscow's way, or the highway.  At least that's the impression I get, correct me if I'm wrong.. Smiley

I see you go to a Greek parish.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2011, 09:35:37 PM »

“Not very much was done or is being done in order to solve this problem,” said Hilarion, who is head of the external relations department of the 165-million-member Russian Orthodox Church and one of the closest aides to Patriarch Kirill.
“As soon as we have this understanding, we will be ready to begin preparations for such a meeting,” he said.
http://updatednews.ca/2011/09/12/orthodox-leader-urges-vatican-to-resolve-dispute/

We have our churches back, so there is no problem.  What the Metropolitan wants is the Pope to sell out the Greek Catholic Churches which is not going to happen.  It is the Russian Orthodox Church that needs the Catholic Church's money, which it never has a problem taking, not the other way around.  I would urge the Pope to refuse to meet with Patriach Kyril and not allow another cent of our money to go his way until he apologizes to the Ukrainian and Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches and puts an end to Orthodox harassment of Catholics in his territory.

IOW the Romanian Patriarch and Romania were and are right in their approach in dealing with its Vatican problem.
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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2011, 09:48:08 PM »

“Not very much was done or is being done in order to solve this problem,” said Hilarion, who is head of the external relations department of the 165-million-member Russian Orthodox Church and one of the closest aides to Patriarch Kirill.
“As soon as we have this understanding, we will be ready to begin preparations for such a meeting,” he said.
http://updatednews.ca/2011/09/12/orthodox-leader-urges-vatican-to-resolve-dispute/

We have our churches back, so there is no problem.  What the Metropolitan wants is the Pope to sell out the Greek Catholic Churches which is not going to happen.  It is the Russian Orthodox Church that needs the Catholic Church's money, which it never has a problem taking, not the other way around.  I would urge the Pope to refuse to meet with Patriach Kyril and not allow another cent of our money to go his way until he apologizes to the Ukrainian and Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches and puts an end to Orthodox harassment of Catholics in his territory.

IOW the Romanian Patriarch and Romania were and are right in their approach in dealing with its Vatican problem.

Finally an admission that the Romanian Orthodox Church did and are doing the Romanian Greek Catholic Church dirty.
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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2011, 09:57:46 PM »

How can there be 165 million Russian Orthodox when there are only 145 million Russians?

The Russian Orthodox Church has parishes outside of Russia. lol

If you were sarcastic, slap me.  Smiley

I just posted that in this thread to be consistent. I also posted the same question in the first thread posted today about the same story.  Regarding MP people in parishes outside Russia, yeah, I guess, but it'd have to be a lot... like 50 million under the MP outside Russia? Seems like a stretch to me, but whatever Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2011, 10:48:18 PM »

And yet it seems no compromise would be possible..

Everything must be done Moscow's way, or the highway.  At least that's the impression I get, correct me if I'm wrong.. Smiley

This is true, but for good reason. I made a diagram to demonstrate why this is so:



Your diagram is incorrect. The Greek circle isn't overlapping with the Ecumenism pentagon.
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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2011, 11:07:23 PM »

“Not very much was done or is being done in order to solve this problem,” said Hilarion, who is head of the external relations department of the 165-million-member Russian Orthodox Church and one of the closest aides to Patriarch Kirill.
“As soon as we have this understanding, we will be ready to begin preparations for such a meeting,” he said.
http://updatednews.ca/2011/09/12/orthodox-leader-urges-vatican-to-resolve-dispute/

We have our churches back, so there is no problem.  What the Metropolitan wants is the Pope to sell out the Greek Catholic Churches which is not going to happen.  It is the Russian Orthodox Church that needs the Catholic Church's money, which it never has a problem taking, not the other way around.  I would urge the Pope to refuse to meet with Patriach Kyril and not allow another cent of our money to go his way until he apologizes to the Ukrainian and Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches and puts an end to Orthodox harassment of Catholics in his territory.

IOW the Romanian Patriarch and Romania were and are right in their approach in dealing with its Vatican problem.

Finally an admission that the Romanian Orthodox Church did and are doing the Romanian Greek Catholic Church dirty.
Not at all.  Just noticing finally an admission that the Romanian Orthodox Church are not fooled by the honeyed words of Vatican II, and therefore have taken appropriate action to combat the threat.

Speaking of dirty, what's the word from your supreme pontiff on the "Romanian Greek Catholic Church" in Italy?  He going to support his agent in Transylvania, or look the other way as the Italian bishops follow in the footsteps of Arb. Irleand?
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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2011, 12:02:15 AM »

Speaking of dirty, what's the word from your supreme pontiff on the "Romanian Greek Catholic Church" in Italy?  He going to support his agent in Transylvania, or look the other way as the Italian bishops follow in the footsteps of Arb. Irleand?

Just as no married Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests left Poland, I do not look for any married Romanian Greek Catholic priests to leave Italy, especially since the married Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic priests have been there for some time.
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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2011, 01:25:16 AM »

Your diagram is incorrect. The Greek circle isn't overlapping with the Ecumenism pentagon.

I thought all true Greeks were old calendarist traditionalists, and that the State Church was just an invention?  If not I will make the proper modifications in version 2.0.
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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2011, 02:57:56 AM »

Your diagram is incorrect. The Greek circle isn't overlapping with the Ecumenism pentagon.

I thought all true Greeks were old calendarist traditionalists, and that the State Church was just an invention?  If not I will make the proper modifications in version 2.0.

Make sure that the New Calendar exists outside of the Truth circle and the Old Calendar exists inside of the Truth circle, and that the Greek circle overlaps with both, kthx.
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2011, 03:12:49 AM »

Make sure that the New Calendar exists outside of the Truth circle and the Old Calendar exists inside of the Truth circle, and that the Greek circle overlaps with both, kthx.

I have considered what you have said, and modified the diagram:

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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2011, 03:24:14 AM »

Make sure that the New Calendar exists outside of the Truth circle and the Old Calendar exists inside of the Truth circle, and that the Greek circle overlaps with both, kthx.

I have considered what you have said, and modified the diagram:


LOL laugh
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« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2011, 05:59:17 AM »

Two similar topic merged.
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2011, 06:07:56 AM »


3rd Rome, white cowel, etc.

Of course, there IS the matter of <trumpets> The White Cowl which Constantine gave to Pope Sylvester as a sign of his global ecclesiastical authority.   It was then given to Constantinople and then Patriarch Jeremias sent it to Russia at the time of the Islamic threat, symbolically entrusting the global primacy to the Russian Church.  Yes, we must not forget <trumpets> The White Cowl!

The Legend of the White Cowl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Cowl
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« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2011, 06:45:48 AM »

Speaking of dirty, what's the word from your supreme pontiff on the "Romanian Greek Catholic Church" in Italy?  He going to support his agent in Transylvania, or look the other way as the Italian bishops follow in the footsteps of Arb. Irleand?

Just as no married Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests left Poland, I do not look for any married Romanian Greek Catholic priests to leave Italy, especially since the married Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic priests have been there for some time.
yes, right after the Greek ones were exterminated.  The Albanian bishops, aren't they in the Italian Episcopal Conference? I seem to have missed their spirited defense of the Romanians. 

Maybe Met. Hilarion would be better served to talk with Bucharest rather than whine to the Vatican over the issue.
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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2011, 08:02:52 AM »


3rd Rome, white cowel, etc.

Of course, there IS the matter of <trumpets> The White Cowl which Constantine gave to Pope Sylvester as a sign of his global ecclesiastical authority.   It was then given to Constantinople and then Patriarch Jeremias sent it to Russia at the time of the Islamic threat, symbolically entrusting the global primacy to the Russian Church.  Yes, we must not forget <trumpets> The White Cowl!

The Legend of the White Cowl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Cowl

I thought Orthodox made a point of rejecting the Donation of Constantine as a forgery. I didn't realize that was the basis of the Third Rome theory.
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« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2011, 09:32:44 AM »

“Not very much was done or is being done in order to solve this problem,” said Hilarion, who is head of the external relations department of the 165-million-member Russian Orthodox Church and one of the closest aides to Patriarch Kirill.
“As soon as we have this understanding, we will be ready to begin preparations for such a meeting,” he said.
http://updatednews.ca/2011/09/12/orthodox-leader-urges-vatican-to-resolve-dispute/

We have our churches back, so there is no problem.  What the Metropolitan wants is the Pope to sell out the Greek Catholic Churches which is not going to happen.  It is the Russian Orthodox Church that needs the Catholic Church's money, which it never has a problem taking, not the other way around.  I would urge the Pope to refuse to meet with Patriach Kyril and not allow another cent of our money to go his way until he apologizes to the Ukrainian and Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches and puts an end to Orthodox harassment of Catholics in his territory.



 How does the Russian Orthodox Church receive money from the Catholic Church?  Do you actually mean that the Vatican is responsible for the rise and growth of the Russian Orthodox Church?

 As far as harassment goes in Western Ukraine and the Carpathian Mountain Regions, persecution was executed by the Polish government and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists.The plan overall, was to Latinize the Orthodox. The elimination of the Greek Catholics was initiated by Stalin and the communist regime. Stalin did not trust the Vatican. To blame the Orthodox Church and use them as scape goats is plain nonsense.
Since the emergence of the Greek Catholic Church, as a result of the violent actions by them in the 80's and 90's, Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on .
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« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2011, 10:12:56 AM »




 1.How does the Russian Orthodox Church receive money from the Catholic Church?  Do you actually mean that the Vatican is responsible for the rise and growth of the Russian Orthodox Church?

 As far as harassment goes in Western Ukraine and the Carpathian Mountain Regions, persecution was executed by the Polish government and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists.The plan overall, was to Latinize the Orthodox. The elimination of the Greek Catholics was initiated by Stalin and the communist regime. Stalin did not trust the Vatican. To blame the Orthodox Church and use them as scape goats is plain nonsense.
2. Since the emergence of the Greek Catholic Church, as a result of the violent actions by them in the 80's and 90's, Orthodox believers had been deprived of their churches and their rights are still trampled on .

1.  There is a Catholic charity with headquarters in Germany that donates money for Russian Orthodox seminarians.

2.  As I see it people expressed their choice and left the MP to join either the newly created UAOC under Archbishop Yarema or joined the UGCC.  You can't force people to belong to the MP.  There is religious freedom now since Ukraine declared indepenedence in 1991.

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« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2011, 10:18:11 AM »

Your diagram is incorrect. The Greek circle isn't overlapping with the Ecumenism pentagon.

I thought all true Greeks were old calendarist traditionalists, and that the State Church was just an invention?  If not I will make the proper modifications in version 2.0.

Asteriktos, did you just call the Greek Archdiocese of America "schismatic"?  Because we are in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople.. Old Calendarists are not. 
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« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2011, 10:22:00 AM »

Your diagram is incorrect. The Greek circle isn't overlapping with the Ecumenism pentagon.

I thought all true Greeks were old calendarist traditionalists, and that the State Church was just an invention?  If not I will make the proper modifications in version 2.0.

Asteriktos, did you just call the Greek Archdiocese of America "schismatic"?  Because we are in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople.. Old Calendarists are not. 

The diagram is meant to be a joke  angel The diagram says that Catholics are all humanists with little truth, Antiochians (which I'm a part of) are in the category that includes other "riff raff," the rest of the world is a small little group of little importance and all by itself, etc.  Basically I tried to take what the most extreme Orthodox person would think, and then exaggerate it further.
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« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2011, 11:38:47 AM »

Serious questions that I am compelled to ask:

1) If the dispute is really about the churches lost by the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in 1946, then why is the UGCC on very cozy terms with the UOC-KP and (to a lesser extent) UAOC, when by Cardinal Husar's own admission as far back as 2004 it is these churches -- and no longer the UOC-MP -- that still holds most of the former UGCC churches that have not yet been returned to it?

http://old.risu.org.ua/eng/religion.and.society/interview/husar/

LH in the quote refers to the Cardinal, Lubomyr Husar

Quote
AA: How many churches are still discussed?
LH: I would say that in western Ukraine there are over 300 localities that are in conflict.
AA: With the Moscow Patriarchate?
LH: Especially with the [Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the] Patriarchate of Kyiv and the [Ukrainian] Autocephalous [Orthodox] Church. There is none with Moscow in the Lviv region, for example. I would say that there are about 25 localities where conflicts are pretty strong.

2. If the UGCC really wants its churches back, then why is it not openly challenging the Polish Catholic hierarchy to return to it the churches, convents and monasteries that were taken by the Polish Communists from the UGCC in 1947 and then given to the Roman Catholics?

From an article by Archimandrite Serge Keleher:

http://www.melkite.com/keleher.html


Quote
In 1946, Poland expelled the Greek-Catholic Bishop of Peremyshl’ and his auxiliary bishop to the Soviet Union, where they soon died in prison. In 1947, the Polish government deprived the Greek-Catholic Church of its legal existence, and deported all the Greek-Catholics from south-eastern Poland, either to the Soviet Union or to the ‘western lands’ newly acquired from Germany - where the Roman Catholic authorities refused to allow any Greek-Catholic pastoral service. In the regions from which the Greek-Catholics had been expelled, the Polish Roman Catholics appropriated the Greek-Catholic church buildings, rectories, monasteries, convents, seminary and cathedrals.

Archimandrite Serge has other articles online that detail the persecution unleashed on the Greek Catholics by the Polish hierarchy in the post-War era, such as the forcible Latinization of whole parishes by Bishop (later Cardinal) Wyszynski.

My understanding is that many of the churches appropriated by the Polish Catholics have never been returned. And yet there is nary a peep about this unjust situation.

2. Why do Ukrainian Greek Catholic websites such as RISU openly take the side of the UOC-KP in its propaganda war versus the UOC-MP and Moscow? Anyone who reads RISU over a long period of time will note its extremely biased and suspect reporting on matters relating to the Moscow Patriarchate. Isn't it better for Catholic news organizations to be neutral in inter-Orthodox disputes?

3. If the UGCC really stands for religious freedom then why is it silent about the continued denial of land to the Moscow Patriarchate in the Galicia, so the MP can build churches for its flock? I understand that this is especially true of Lviv. Last time I checked Christians are not supposed to behave like their opponents.

I ask these questions as someone who has been interested in the Ukrainian question for more than a decade now, and who has moved from an uncritical anger towards the Moscow Patriarchate to a realization that the question is far more complex than it first appears.
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« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2011, 12:37:12 PM »

Serious questions that I am compelled to ask:

1) If the dispute is really about the churches lost by the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in 1946, then why is the UGCC on very cozy terms with the UOC-KP and (to a lesser extent) UAOC, when by Cardinal Husar's own admission as far back as 2004 it is these churches -- and no longer the UOC-MP -- that still holds most of the former UGCC churches that have not yet been returned to it?

http://old.risu.org.ua/eng/religion.and.society/interview/husar/

LH in the quote refers to the Cardinal, Lubomyr Husar

Quote
AA: How many churches are still discussed?
LH: I would say that in western Ukraine there are over 300 localities that are in conflict.
AA: With the Moscow Patriarchate?
LH: Especially with the [Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the] Patriarchate of Kyiv and the [Ukrainian] Autocephalous [Orthodox] Church. There is none with Moscow in the Lviv region, for example. I would say that there are about 25 localities where conflicts are pretty strong.
Challenging the "Kiev Patriarchate" and even more so the "autocephalous church" wouldn't fit the Vatican's agenda of taking on the Patriarchate of Moscow

2. If the UGCC really wants its churches back, then why is it not openly challenging the Polish Catholic hierarchy to return to it the churches, convents and monasteries that were taken by the Polish Communists from the UGCC in 1947 and then given to the Roman Catholics?

From an article by Archimandrite Serge Keleher:

http://www.melkite.com/keleher.html


Quote
In 1946, Poland expelled the Greek-Catholic Bishop of Peremyshl’ and his auxiliary bishop to the Soviet Union, where they soon died in prison. In 1947, the Polish government deprived the Greek-Catholic Church of its legal existence, and deported all the Greek-Catholics from south-eastern Poland, either to the Soviet Union or to the ‘western lands’ newly acquired from Germany - where the Roman Catholic authorities refused to allow any Greek-Catholic pastoral service. In the regions from which the Greek-Catholics had been expelled, the Polish Roman Catholics appropriated the Greek-Catholic church buildings, rectories, monasteries, convents, seminary and cathedrals.

Archimandrite Serge has other articles online that detail the persecution unleashed on the Greek Catholics by the Polish hierarchy in the post-War era, such as the forcible Latinization of whole parishes by Bishop (later Cardinal) Wyszynski.

My understanding is that many of the churches appropriated by the Polish Catholics have never been returned. And yet there is nary a peep about this unjust situation.

Anyone who knows the history of the union schemes knows the answers to these questions.

I had originally been posting a response to Deacon Lance on this very issue, when the threads were merged and consequently the post was lost.  I was too tired to redo all of it.  But since it has been brought up, are any of those married priests in Poland that Deacon Lance is so quick to mention, are any of them in the "New Lands" of Poland, where most Ukrainians, in submission or Orthodox, are located?
the kakhi green here

is the Exarchate of Lutsk, under which the number and size of the dioceses (in contrast to Lutsk, and even more the dioceses in the rest of the country) indicate the average density of those in submission to the Vatican alongside the Polish border.

On the "Ukrainian Catholic Archeparchy of Peremyshl–Varshava."
Quote
In 1946, Bishop Josaphat Kotsylovsky was arrested and extradited to the USSR, where he died in prison. In Poland, where the city of Przemysl and a majority of the eparchy was located (a portion was in the Ukrainian SSR), all priests were arrested and given sentences of between four and ten years. One hundred Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests remained in Poland. After their release they kept a low profile serving in the Latin rite Church, many as convent chaplains. Sixteen worked giving pastoral care to Ukrainian Catholics at pastoral centres. In 1977, the Roman Catholic Primate of Poland's Vicar-General for Ukrainian Greek Catholics was also named Dean of the Przemysl Eparchy by the Vatican. Cardinal Slipyj objected to this action as contrary to his perogatives and appointed the same priest Administrator of the Eparchy. In 1981, a second Vicar-General to the Primate was appointed for Ukrainian Greek Catholics in Poland outside of the traditional boundries of the Przemysl Eparchy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Catholic_Archeparchy_of_Przemy%C5%9Bl%E2%80%93Warsaw

2. Why do Ukrainian Greek Catholic websites such as RISU openly take the side of the UOC-KP in its propaganda war versus the UOC-MP and Moscow? Anyone who reads RISU over a long period of time will note its extremely biased and suspect reporting on matters relating to the Moscow Patriarchate. Isn't it better for Catholic news organizations to be neutral in inter-Orthodox disputes?
It takes Moscow for a convenient target of why the Ukrainians are not flocking to the Vatican.  Sort of the same way the Vatican blames the Ottomans for why the "Union" of Florence failed.  Then there is the idea of talking the "Kiev Patriarch" to submit to the Vatican where it will be welcomed in contrast to the cold shoulder it gets from canonical Orthodox primates.  Perhaps there is a reason why the Vatican will not recognize its Ukrainian cardinal taking the title "Patriarch."

3. If the UGCC really stands for religious freedom then why is it silent about the continued denial of land to the Moscow Patriarchate in the Galicia, so the MP can build churches for its flock? I understand that this is especially true of Lviv. Last time I checked Christians are not supposed to behave like their opponents.
Shhhh!  There is not supposed to be any Orthodox, let alone canonical Orthodox in Galicia:everyone is free now, so they all are rushing to the Vatican.  No organization conected with the Vatican ever denies human rights, so even if these non-existent canonical Orthodox existed they would not be denied their rights by the Vatican's flock ipso facto.

Deacon Lance wants to bribe an apology out of the Patriarchate of Moscow over Brest.  Did the Vatican apology for Brest?

I ask these questions as someone who has been interested in the Ukrainian question for more than a decade now, and who has moved from an uncritical anger towards the Moscow Patriarchate to a realization that the question is far more complex than it first appears.
you're not supposed to actually look at the facts. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2011, 01:09:05 PM »

you're not supposed to actually look at the facts. Roll Eyes

Of course not...we are only supposed to look at the "facts" that YOU present.
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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2011, 01:57:37 PM »

you're not supposed to actually look at the facts. Roll Eyes

Of course not...we are only supposed to look at the "facts" that YOU present.
were that true, I wouldn't bother giving links, citations, etc. where one can look for himself, including the nonsense the Vatican and its ilk puts out.
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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2011, 02:05:36 PM »

Serious questions that I am compelled to ask:
3. If the UGCC really stands for religious freedom then why is it silent about the continued denial of land to the Moscow Patriarchate in the Galicia, so the MP can build churches for its flock? I understand that this is especially true of Lviv. Last time I checked Christians are not supposed to behave like their opponents.

I ask these questions as someone who has been interested in the Ukrainian question for more than a decade now, and who has moved from an uncritical anger towards the Moscow Patriarchate to a realization that the question is far more complex than it first appears.

First of all the question has to be asked how many people in Galicia want to be members or are members of the MP?  As far as Lviv goes, the local government did assign a suitable church to the MP and their Bishop Augustine lives in Lviv.  I have visited that church have you.
What you don't understand is thatr the people who live in Galicia have already made their choices  as far as church affiliation goes.  It is old history now.  Ukraine became free in 1991: that is 20 years ago.


I read a very interesting article by a Scandinavian scholar on orthodoxy in Galicia published soon after Indepenece (1991).  For the first time I found out that Fr. Dimitri Yarema had been a Ukrainian Catholic priest before WW2 and was a friend of Fr. Gabriel Kostelnyk.  here is a quote that explains the background of what happened in 1989 on in Galicia:

Quote
When the Soviet forces returned to Galicia in late 1944, the Autocephalous church was “liquidated” and together with the Greek Catholic Church discredited as a collaborationist church. No UAOC catacomb church seems to have existed in Soviet Ukraine, and only in the late



Hann, Christopher (Editor); Magocsi, Paul Robert (Editor). Galicia: A Multicultured land.
Toronto, ON, CAN: University of Toronto Press, 2005. p 76.
Orthodoxy and Autocephaly in Galicia                                                             Page     77

1980s did a small group for the restoration of Ukrainian Orthodoxy emerge in dissident circles in Kiev and L’viv. 22 Until then, the tradition of the UAOC was kept alive mainly in émigré communities abroad. The Church’s overseas leadership welcomed the reborn “Galician” UAOC into its ranks immediately. Within a year, by the end of 1990, some 1,000 UAOC parishes had been formed throughout western Ukraine, mainly in Galicia. 23 Father Dmitrii Iarema, founder of the restored UAOC in Ukraine, was a former Greek Catholic priest who, in 1946, had followed Kostel’nyk into Orthodoxy. In the initial phase of the UAOC’s existence, Iarema explicitly invoked the legacy of Kostel’nyk’s “reunited” Orthodox church in the unspoiled form it had allegedly regained in the 1940s. 24  In this way, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church can with some justification be considered heir to both the traditions of the prewar Greek Catholic easternizers as well as to postwar Sovietimposed Orthodoxy in Galicia. The last surviving bishop of the wartime, or second, UAOC and spiritual leader of the émigré church, Metropolitan Mstyslav (Skrypnyk), was elected patriarch in May 1990 at a sobor (church council) marking the return of the church to its titular territory. Mstyslav was a nephew of Symon Petliura (hero of Ukraine’s first period of independence, 1917– 1920) and thus well qualified to link the new church to a positive image of Ukrainian statehood. These features, although essentially non-Galician, gave credibility and popular support to the third, “Galician” UAOC. The very name, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, still attracted respect, and the fact that the first UAOC during the Ukrainian “Golden Age” of the 1920s had mainly served as a national church for eastern, Soviet Ukrainians did not diminish its mobilizing impact on Galician Ukrainians. As it emerged in Galicia and western Ukraine during the national revival of the late 1980s and early 1990s, the UAOC followed a consistent all-Ukrainian stance. Its priests and bishops attended all major anniversaries in honor of the Zaporozhian Cossacks and the poet Taras Shevchenko, as well as commemorations for victims of the Great Famine of 1933. 25   The UAOC quickly associated itself with the semi-independent Kievan Metropolitanate of the Cossack era (that is, before Kiev was made fully subordinate to the Moscow Patriarchate after 1686) and claimed to be the true church of the Zaporozhians, famed as fierce defenders of Orthodoxy against Catholics. 26 This strategy enabled the UAOC to provide a serious challenge to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic



Hann, Christopher (Editor); Magocsi, Paul Robert (Editor). Galicia: A Multicultured land.
Toronto, ON, CAN: University of Toronto Press, 2005. p. 77.
Harald H. Jepsen                              Page  78


Church on its traditional territory. More than 90 percent of the UAOC’s 1,300 parishes in Ukraine are located in Galicia. 27 In fact, the distribution of UAOC congregations strongly resembles the distribution of Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes. Both churches face the same problems of how to expand their influence beyond western Ukraine and Kiev and how to attract the support of Ukrainians who are not particularly conscious of their national identity. Conflicts between the two “Galician” churches over property and parishes have occurred, but not to the same degree as conflicts between the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church, recently renamed the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate. After the death of Mstyslav in 1993, Father Iarema was elevated to the post of patriarch of the UAOC and, claiming Kievan heritage, took up residence in Kiev. The stronghold of the UAOC, however, remains Galicia. By the mid-1990s it was the largest Orthodox church there, claiming some 20 percent of all religious congregations. 28   During its short (renewed) existence the UAOC has proved capable of surviving internal splits, and it has fought off “usurpation” by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kiev Patriarchate. This rival Ukrainian national church is headed by the former Russian Orthodox Church Exarch in Ukraine, Filaret. In the struggle with the Ukrainian Catholic Church for the mind and soul of Galician Ukrainians, the UAOC stresses that it is independent of foreign control. Neither Rome nor Moscow has any say in its affairs. In pointing out to the Greek Catholics that their church has failed to get permission from Rome to resurrect the Ukrainian Catholic patriarchal see in Kiev, the Autocephalists struck a soft spot among many Greek Catholic priests and bishops, both in Ukraine and abroad, who tend to perceive Rome’s reluctance on this matter as a mark of disregard for the national aspirations of Ukrainians and of Ukrainian independence. 29   
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« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2011, 04:56:25 PM »

So what does the ROC want the Greek Catholics to do, hand over their churches to the Orthodox (Or possibly join up with them)?  Not going to happen anytime soon.

Ecumenism is important, but not at the expense of selling out those who remained loyal to Catholicism for decades of state suppression under communism (Centuries if you count the persecution of the Czar's).  The Greek Catholic Church is back and here to stay, so the Russians will just have to get used to it.

BTW,  Would it be okay in Moscow's eyes if the Vatican ordered the GCC to give her churches back to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP!  I wonder what would happen if the Pope made that offer to the Patriarch during any future meeting between them?
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« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2011, 05:10:49 PM »

So what does the ROC want the Greek Catholics to do, hand over their churches to the Orthodox (Or possibly join up with them)?  Not going to happen anytime soon.

Ecumenism is important, but not at the expense of selling out those who remained loyal to Catholicism for decades of state suppression under communism (Centuries if you count the persecution of the Czar's).  The Greek Catholic Church is back and here to stay, so the Russians will just have to get used to it.
Or stomp it out.  The Vatican can keep its ecumenism to itself.

Those who remained loyal to Catholicism returned to Orthodoxy, a process that was going although Austria-Hungary was suppressing it and hearding the Orthodox into concentration camps a hundred years ago. The Czar didn't rule the area, except briefly during WWI, so there is no such thing as "centuries of state suppression" in the area in question, except the state suppression of Orthodoxy.

Btw, the seized properties and Churches include those built by the PoM since 1947, besides those stolen in 1596 which were recovered.

BTW,  Would it be okay in Moscow's eyes if the Vatican ordered the GCC to give her churches back to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP!  I wonder what would happen if the Pope made that offer to the Patriarch during any future meeting between them?
going from heretical groups to schismatic ones would be a baby step in the right direction, but wouldn't change much.
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« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2011, 05:23:59 PM »

So what does the ROC want the Greek Catholics to do, hand over their churches to the Orthodox (Or possibly join up with them)?  Not going to happen anytime soon.

Ecumenism is important, but not at the expense of selling out those who remained loyal to Catholicism for decades of state suppression under communism (Centuries if you count the persecution of the Czar's).  The Greek Catholic Church is back and here to stay, so the Russians will just have to get used to it.
Or stomp it out. 

Another call for the destruction of the Catholic Church.

You offer one bitter bitter message.

Vile
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« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2011, 05:29:34 PM »

So what does the ROC want the Greek Catholics to do, hand over their churches to the Orthodox (Or possibly join up with them)?  Not going to happen anytime soon.

Ecumenism is important, but not at the expense of selling out those who remained loyal to Catholicism for decades of state suppression under communism (Centuries if you count the persecution of the Czar's).  The Greek Catholic Church is back and here to stay, so the Russians will just have to get used to it.
Or stomp it out.  


Another call for the destruction of the Catholic Church.

You offer one bitter bitter message.

Vile

No kidding.  Angry
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« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2011, 05:31:41 PM »

Make sure that the New Calendar exists outside of the Truth circle and the Old Calendar exists inside of the Truth circle, and that the Greek circle overlaps with both, kthx.
I have considered what you have said, and modified the diagram:

LOL laugh

Hey, I have to insist you put us still closer to the Antiochians & other Riff Raff. At least we get to speak the same language together at coffee hour. And a ying-yang sign would be best if we're yolked with 'dem darned "nestorians".
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« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2011, 05:33:18 PM »

That diagram=awesome.  Grin
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« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2011, 05:41:15 PM »

So what does the ROC want the Greek Catholics to do, hand over their churches to the Orthodox (Or possibly join up with them)?  Not going to happen anytime soon.

Ecumenism is important, but not at the expense of selling out those who remained loyal to Catholicism for decades of state suppression under communism (Centuries if you count the persecution of the Czar's).  The Greek Catholic Church is back and here to stay, so the Russians will just have to get used to it.
Or stomp it out. 

Another call for the destruction of the Catholic Church.
 

You offer one bitter bitter message.
no, that was Robb.
the Russians will just have to get used to it

Vile
yes, the very idea that Ukrainians and Rusyns (the ones in the area, btw, I don't think there are many Russians there) should get used to heresy and schism.  Orthodoxy doesn't "get used" to heresy, and destroys it wherever it is found.

The whole area was in perfect communion with the rest of the Catholic Chruch until 1596, and a succession of Saints like Met. St. Peter Movila of Kiev, St. Maxim Sandovich and St. Alexis Kabaliuk worked hard to reclaim the lost sheep, for which God glorified them. And the PoM should be bribed to apologize for that?  The Vatican would do better to pen its apologies for Brest rather than its enconium for the state suppression of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
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« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2011, 06:08:08 PM »




The whole area was in perfect communion with the rest of the Catholic Chruch until 1596
, and a succession of Saints like Met. St. Peter Movila of Kiev, St. Maxim Sandovich and St. Alexis Kabaliuk worked hard to reclaim the lost sheep, for which God glorified them. And the PoM should be bribed to apologize for that?  The Vatican would do better to pen its apologies for Brest rather than its enconium for the state suppression of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Ialmisry, you need to read a good history book.  Galicia did not become Greek Catholic in 1598.  It was not until the the Austrians took over the area that the state-supported Greek Catholic Church was introduced in the 18th century.
The Edict of Toleration of the Austrian Empire on paper allowed people to return to Orthodoxy in Galicia.  And there always was one Orthodox Church left open in Lviv to supposedly serve the soldiers of the Austrian Empire who were Orthodox.
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« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2011, 06:12:48 PM »

Isa, you screwed up your quote boxes- those weren't from Robb, they were from Elijahmaria. Try and pay attention.
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« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2011, 06:31:37 PM »

Isa, ... Try and pay attention.


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