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Author Topic: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?  (Read 4718 times) Average Rating: 0
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JLatimer
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« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2011, 03:23:59 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
And yet, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel, while the world court concept of "shared responsibility" is not.
However, an Orthodox participant here says that the decisions of the Nuremberg trials were "totally fair". How can that be in accord with the gospel if the soldiers were  rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's by following the orders of Caesar? Nuremberg did not accept the defense of <<I was just following the orders of Caesar>>. By saying that Nuremberg was fair, you would be basically saying that the defense of <<rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's>> is not admissable.

Contrary to what you say, it is not Caesar's to have his orders followed.

The Gospel story in question consists of a specific question about taxes; an examination of a coin, revealing that Caesar's image is on it; the instruction to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Hence, the image imprinted on the coin identifies it as Caesar's. Likewise, the Image imprinted on man, identifies him as God's. Hence, 'we must obey God rather than men'. Paul's admonition to submit to the authorities simply helps to define what this means. Submit to the authorities except when they ask you to do something contrary to God's law.

You want to bring taxes back into the forefront of the question of God's authority vs. men's authority, but it looks to me like Jesus purposefully meant to exclude it from that dialectic as a matter of little importance. You are repeating the error of the Jewish leaders in doing so.
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« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2011, 03:44:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And there are countries which do not engage in torture and are not stockpiling chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, such as Luxembourg for example.



I hate to burst your bubble, but who do you think funds all these war-machines and political corruption Wink


The Nazis were a terrifying circumstance of the human experience, but we must not forget God was there too, perpetually sustaining even the lives of those butchers who extinguished life in such appalling numbers.  Further, theologically, do human beings even have the agency to take life or isn't that reserved for God alone? An individual expressing their free-will may try to kill another person, but only God actually takes away that life.  Plenty of people try to kill people unsuccessfully, and plenty of others die peacefully in their sleep.  In regards to the finality of life and death, these are up to God alone.  We are merely egoistically assuming that the agency of our free-will has such far-reaching impact, in reality it merely a vain assumption. 

This is why we have the example of Saint Michael the Archangel, who when "doubting the Adversary, arguing concerning the body of Moses, he dares not bring on a calumniating judging, but instead said, 'May the Lord rebuke you.'"

We must follow the Archangel, the Chief of the Heavenly Hosts, example in this instance, and reserve judgment to God.  With these intense, soul-wrenching discussions, we should not be turning inwards to our own internalized (and flawed) sense of morality, but must go to prayer with God to understand HIS WILL. Adam and Eve also relied on their own sense of morality and look where it got them and us.

The Nazis were scum.  So is the Adversary.  And yet, even these may be able to find God's mercy, so we should not be so quick to condemn them as much as we should be condemning their actions.  Further, in our condemnations, we must not be so personalized as pointing fingers saying "you" or "them" but rather must take in prayer and say "we" and "us" for all of humanity is one.

All of humanity is complicit in these crimes, these evils, these travesties..  We even tried to kill Jesus Christ in our lust for egoistical free-will, what more could we expect of ourselves? Better we should in all these matters say, "Lord have mercy on Us, sinners" and conclude with, "Father, let it not be according to our will, but let Your Will be accompished."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2011, 10:25:12 PM »

You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels.

The Church has some teachings and beliefs that are not mentioned in the Gospel but it does not have ones that are contrary to it (in contrary to your religious organisation).

Quote
how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.

The Church, in contrary to the Vatican, doesn't have the need to have opinion on and interfere to everything everywhere.
I would disagree. I don;t want to sidetrack this thread, but I hope it would not be out of order to respond to a false statement.  It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 
 
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« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2011, 10:26:30 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
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« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2011, 10:29:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And there are countries which do not engage in torture and are not stockpiling chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, such as Luxembourg for example.



I hate to burst your bubble, but who do you think funds all these war-machines and political corruption Wink
Well, in listening to Ron Paul, it would have to be the USA? How many atomic bombs or military bases does Luxembourg have?
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« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2011, 10:52:56 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
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« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2011, 11:50:36 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.
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« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2011, 11:51:41 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
And yet, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel, while the world court concept of "shared responsibility" is not.
However, an Orthodox participant here says that the decisions of the Nuremberg trials were "totally fair". How can that be in accord with the gospel if the soldiers were  rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's by following the orders of Caesar? Nuremberg did not accept the defense of <<I was just following the orders of Caesar>>. By saying that Nuremberg was fair, you would be basically saying that the defense of <<rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's>> is not admissable.

Contrary to what you say, it is not Caesar's to have his orders followed.

The Gospel story in question consists of a specific question about taxes; an examination of a coin, revealing that Caesar's image is on it; the instruction to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Hence, the image imprinted on the coin identifies it as Caesar's. Likewise, the Image imprinted on man, identifies him as God's. Hence, 'we must obey God rather than men'. Paul's admonition to submit to the authorities simply helps to define what this means. Submit to the authorities except when they ask you to do something contrary to God's law.

You want to bring taxes back into the forefront of the question of God's authority vs. men's authority, but it looks to me like Jesus purposefully meant to exclude it from that dialectic as a matter of little importance. You are repeating the error of the Jewish leaders in doing so.
In some countries, Caesar demands both taxes and military service.
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« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2011, 11:52:32 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.

Protestants say a lot of things I would ordinarily attribute to drug-taking, were I not acutely aware of the power of brainwashing.
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« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2011, 12:05:29 AM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.

Protestants say a lot of things I would ordinarily attribute to drug-taking, were I not acutely aware of the power of brainwashing.
That may be true about taking drugs, but do the Gospels say "Call no man father"? I don't see what taking drugs has to do with this command we find in the Gospels?
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« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2011, 04:31:32 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
And yet, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel, while the world court concept of "shared responsibility" is not.
However, an Orthodox participant here says that the decisions of the Nuremberg trials were "totally fair". How can that be in accord with the gospel if the soldiers were  rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's by following the orders of Caesar? Nuremberg did not accept the defense of <<I was just following the orders of Caesar>>. By saying that Nuremberg was fair, you would be basically saying that the defense of <<rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's>> is not admissable.

Contrary to what you say, it is not Caesar's to have his orders followed.

The Gospel story in question consists of a specific question about taxes; an examination of a coin, revealing that Caesar's image is on it; the instruction to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Hence, the image imprinted on the coin identifies it as Caesar's. Likewise, the Image imprinted on man, identifies him as God's. Hence, 'we must obey God rather than men'. Paul's admonition to submit to the authorities simply helps to define what this means. Submit to the authorities except when they ask you to do something contrary to God's law.

You want to bring taxes back into the forefront of the question of God's authority vs. men's authority, but it looks to me like Jesus purposefully meant to exclude it from that dialectic as a matter of little importance. You are repeating the error of the Jewish leaders in doing so.
In some countries, Caesar demands both taxes and military service.

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's. If Caesar demand's worship, for example, he is to be politely declined, and the Christian is to accept the consequences, a la the three holy youths. Which leads us back to the other thing I was trying to say: there are other stories in the Bible and Tradition that help us understand how to deal with issues like military service. I see no immediate reason to believe the "render unto Caesar" story is about anything but taxes. It may be, but you would have to show how and why it is applicable in each other case.
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« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2011, 04:33:41 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.

Protestants say a lot of things I would ordinarily attribute to drug-taking, were I not acutely aware of the power of brainwashing.
That may be true about taking drugs, but do the Gospels say "Call no man father"? I don't see what taking drugs has to do with this command we find in the Gospels?

The Gospels also say that we should cut off our hands if they offend us. 

The letter killeth...
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« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2011, 07:06:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?

Are you suggesting that the Incarnate God did not know something in particular?

Sorry I had to cut this down.

I didn't read the thread. I usually don't anymore because they are boring and go nowhere and it seems folks aren't even getting to the basics here.

But I did want to point this out.

Yes I know a lot that Jesus of Nazareth didn't know.

I know the calculus for one thing. Well I have a paper that says I do. 

More importantly, I wonder if anywhere in thread concerning this passage have the following IMPORTANT questions been established:

Where was Christ when this happened?
Why did he ask to SEE a coin, why not just ask who was on one?
What belongs to Caesar? (Most Christians crack me up with this one.)

I admit I did see something like Caesar's =/= Caesar's, so the last question was dealt with, but since the longwinded answers were following, I guess everyone failed.

What belongs to Caesar? Oh those other questions.

And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.

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« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2011, 07:11:17 PM »



And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.


He could probably kick your butt at a fish fry.
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« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2011, 07:19:07 PM »



And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.


He could probably kick your butt at a fish fry.

Doubt it. I would surprised it there were any foods I couldn't prepare better. We have the advantage of Food Science on our side and about 2000 more years and access to better appliances and variety of ingredients.

Now, as to making that last bit of Chilean Sea Bass* go a little further, hands down.

In fact, we could probably take it off the disappearing species list or whatever it is called.

*I do not actually eat this creature nor should you.
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« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2011, 07:57:20 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father.  

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.

Protestants say a lot of things I would ordinarily attribute to drug-taking, were I not acutely aware of the power of brainwashing.
That may be true about taking drugs, but do the Gospels say "Call no man father"? I don't see what taking drugs has to do with this command we find in the Gospels?
Go become Protestant, then you'll have some actual moral authority on this Wink

What's with all those idiot Christians who believe in God?
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« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2011, 07:58:58 PM »



And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.


He could probably kick your butt at a fish fry.

Doubt it. I would surprised it there were any foods I couldn't prepare better. We have the advantage of Food Science on our side and about 2000 more years and access to better appliances and variety of ingredients.

Now, as to making that last bit of Chilean Sea Bass* go a little further, hands down.

In fact, we could probably take it off the disappearing species list or whatever it is called.

*I do not actually eat this creature nor should you.
When you and Jesus throw down and go all Iron Chef in heaven, I hope to be there.

And Chilean Sea Bass is overrated.
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« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2011, 08:06:22 PM »

Iron Chef or Iron Chef America? I'd kill to see Jason, Jesus and Alton Brown in a studio together. Kill. Dead.
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« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2011, 08:45:03 PM »

Iron Chef or Iron Chef America? I'd kill to see Jason, Jesus and Alton Brown in a studio together. Kill. Dead.
YES. I don't know what the secret ingredient will be, but I'm sure that Jesus knows it already. Wink
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« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2011, 08:53:32 PM »

Iron Chef or Iron Chef America? I'd kill to see Jason, Jesus and Alton Brown in a studio together. Kill. Dead.
YES. I don't know what the secret ingredient will be, but I'm sure that Jesus knows it already. Wink

That is called cheating . . . We are talking the Jesus on earth Jesus, not the one before or after.
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« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2011, 10:54:33 PM »


And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.


High Macha Of Rashpur: It is written, "He who makes the best egg salad shall rule over heaven and earth." Don't ask me why egg salad - I've got enough aggravation.

It seems obvious to me that knowing the world's best egg salad recipe, makes any rendition of a poached egg inconsequential.  When I was looking for this particular quote, it struck me how many of the other quotes were stylistically similar to those of Asteriktos.
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« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2011, 12:57:06 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?
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« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2011, 01:00:25 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
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« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2011, 02:03:29 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
orthonorm, Please do try to keep this thread on topic. Thank you. (Yes, I am speaking as a moderator.)  -PtA
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« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2011, 02:28:23 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
I was not trying to be cryptic but only to suggest that it is not all that easy to determine what is Caesar's and what is not Caesar's. I suppose that you can argue either way about taxes or military service.
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« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2011, 03:28:43 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
I was not trying to be cryptic but only to suggest that it is not all that easy to determine what is Caesar's and what is not Caesar's. I suppose that you can argue either way about taxes or military service.

Stanley did you see my questions I asked above about the passage that is being discussed? I would like someone to answer them. It seems they are important. We discussed it in OC.net chat tonight and they seemed productive to discussion.

Where was Christ when this happened?
Why did he ask to SEE a coin, why not just ask who was on one?
What belongs to Caesar? (Most Christians crack me up with this one.)
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« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2011, 10:03:22 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
I was not trying to be cryptic but only to suggest that it is not all that easy to determine what is Caesar's and what is not Caesar's. I suppose that you can argue either way about taxes or military service.

Stanley did you see my questions I asked above about the passage that is being discussed? I would like someone to answer them. It seems they are important. We discussed it in OC.net chat tonight and they seemed productive to discussion.

Where was Christ when this happened?
Why did he ask to SEE a coin, why not just ask who was on one?
What belongs to Caesar? (Most Christians crack me up with this one.)

In the Temple, in the city of Jerusalem, in the Roman province of Judaea.
Not sure. Your thoughts.
Ambiguous.

Mark 12:14-17 (KJV)
And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? [15] Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it . [16] And they brought it . And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. [17] And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Matthew 22:16-21 (KJV)
And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man : for thou regardest not the person of men. [17] Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? [18] But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? [19] Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. [20] And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? [21] They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
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« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2011, 01:21:46 AM »

What belongs to Caesar? 
Caesar thinks that you have to pay taxes, and in some countries at certain times, Caesar demands military service. Caesar has the power of the fist to enforce his demands.
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« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2011, 10:04:01 AM »

What belongs to Caesar? 
Caesar thinks that you have to pay taxes, and in some countries at certain times, Caesar demands military service. Caesar has the power of the fist to enforce his demands.

You are still falsely equating 'what Caesar thinks is his' and 'what is Caesar's'.
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« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2011, 12:39:19 PM »

What belongs to Caesar? 
Caesar thinks that you have to pay taxes, and in some countries at certain times, Caesar demands military service. Caesar has the power of the fist to enforce his demands.

You are still falsely equating 'what Caesar thinks is his' and 'what is Caesar's'.
No.
I did not equate anything to anything.
 I said this is what Caesar demands. He demands both taxes and military service. I said he has the power of the fist to enforce his demands.
You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.
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« Reply #120 on: September 18, 2011, 03:58:51 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.
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« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2011, 04:53:06 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.

Could you elaborate?
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« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2011, 04:56:47 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.
You are going to find a difference of opinion as to who is truly Christian.
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« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2011, 04:59:39 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.

Could you elaborate?

BTW, your question about seeing the coin: could one possible answer be: the irony that the "hypocrites" had Roman money in their pockets?
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« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2011, 05:59:02 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.

Could you elaborate?

BTW, your question about seeing the coin: could one possible answer be: the irony that the "hypocrites" had Roman money in their pockets?

Bingo. Finally someone willing to answer the basic questions before trying to extrapolate to the "big" questions.

Why are they hypocrites otherwise? A Pharisee or the like would avoid touching Roman money outside the Temple as much as possible much less within it.

It must be remembered it was just not Tiberius Caesar's image on the coin, but the fact he was in a divine lineage to Augustus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar...#The_coin

A Pharisee and the like touching such scandalous and idolatrous material would have had to be ritually purified.

By asking to SEE the coin and not just asking who is on it, Christ is showing them for the hypocrites that they are.

Now one could say the text is ambiguous and that the Pharisees and Herodians went to fetch a coin, but I think this is a stretch and goes to apologetics unfounded.

In any case, it is hard for us to imagine this scene the way a Hebrew would have at the time. That it occurs in all the synoptics is telling. As I said in chat, in the parlance of our times, upon hearing Christ ask to see such a coin from such people within the Temple and in their zeal to trap them and thus expose their hypocrisy the average Hebrew would have said:

NO HE DIDN'T!
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« Reply #125 on: September 18, 2011, 06:21:38 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.
You are going to find a difference of opinion as to who is truly Christian.

Actually I ain't. Well people may disagree with my point, but they are wrong. This ain't "opinion time. It's basic Judeo-Christianity.

You have to look at the rhetoric of Christ throughout most of the synoptics especially within Mark. There is irony, oft in the form of the Socratic variety with a "true" cynical turn (please google what cynicism means before arguing).

He constantly answers questions with questions that leave the accusers in a lurch. If they answer what is in their hearts they will be found to hypocrites or put into the very same danger they would like put Christ.

Here they are trying to get Christ to speak again the tax.

People jump the gun and think Christ's answer is about paying taxes per se, but it ain't.

What does Christ ask them / tell them?

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

Now the implied question?

Not what is Caesar's per se,

but:

What is God's?

This is basic Judaism come Christianity 101.

How do you answer?

EVERYTHING.

Nothing belongs to you, not even your own life. All is God's. End of discussion. What is given to you is for you to steward to the glory of God to the degree you can.

Tithing, Temple Sacrifice, etc. are ways of acknowledging this basic tenet of Judeo-Christianity, which seems to pretty much go missing anymore.

Whether you pay the tax is it a matter of proper stewardship of what you were given by God to His glory. There is no easy answer here.

Sometimes taxes may serve the Glory of God, as well as military service, etc.

But this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with some division between worldly offerings and "obedience" to governments versus some spiritual offering to God.

That is gnosticism for real. The notion that what is God's ends with the dirty complications of commerce and government and the like. As long as we are good citizens and go to the Divine Liturgy, we are doing what Jesus suggested here.

No.

Everything is God's and all is given to us by God, even Caesar and his tax. How we handle and steward what we were given obviously can get very complicated.

But if a "Christian" or a "Jew" does not believe that everything is God's. Then they ain't no proper Christian nor Jew.

Even my backwoods Baptist, three-fingered preacher knew that much. I would think the Orthodox and Roman Catholics would know as much as well.

What we render to Caesar is what is God's in light of proper stewardship of what were given.

Caesar's life doesn't belong to him, much less that coin with his image and name on it.





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« Reply #126 on: September 19, 2011, 10:33:46 AM »

I'll just say this and no more. St. Paul paid the taxes that were due from Roman citizens. If Christ advocated not paying taxes, I doubt he'd have done it.

PP
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« Reply #127 on: September 19, 2011, 11:20:38 AM »

I'll just say this and no more. St. Paul paid the taxes that were due from Roman citizens. If Christ advocated not paying taxes, I doubt he'd have done it.

PP

You are avoiding the point above not to mention the fact your argument doesn't necessarily follow.

St. Paul was not Christ nor His pure and perfect human conduit.

But again, I would love a Christian to explain to me how in virtue of something other than proper stewardship of God's creation we ought to do anything regarding creation, paying taxes or otherwise.

However St. Paul struggled with that particular issue for himself and particular other persons in a specific place and time doesn't bare much for us outside the fact he must have struggled within the horizon of the proper Christian ethos as I have succinctly laid out, if he did so in a Christian manner.

In short.

You can lay all the questions about Rendering to Caesar aside.

/thread.
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« Reply #128 on: September 19, 2011, 11:37:06 AM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)
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« Reply #129 on: September 19, 2011, 11:46:13 AM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.

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« Reply #130 on: September 19, 2011, 11:48:11 AM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.
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« Reply #131 on: September 19, 2011, 11:57:13 AM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.

/thread.
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« Reply #132 on: September 19, 2011, 12:19:25 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.

/thread.

1- Your argument is too existential for my simple mind.
2- What use is it to have a thread if it is not going to go on too long after all original content has been expended?
3- The only proper stewardship for God's silver is to mix it with 28% nickel and make it into 100 Peso coins.  They are truly beautiful coins, and due to San Jacinto we don't have don't have to render anything to Santa Anna.
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« Reply #133 on: September 19, 2011, 12:33:36 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?
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Posts: 16,523



« Reply #134 on: September 19, 2011, 01:11:05 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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