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Author Topic: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?  (Read 4642 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #135 on: September 19, 2011, 01:45:26 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
Have I told you before to not call me Pete?
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« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2011, 01:54:10 PM »

So why then, follow any law that is not specifically stated in scripture? So why obey traffic laws? Why buy anything? You're using God's money to buy God's stuff. Why did Mary and Joseph go back to be counted in the census? Did God not put Caesar in power? Does not God put all rulers in their place?

PP
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« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2011, 02:00:28 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
Have I told you before to not call me Pete?

No.

Have I asked you to refer to my posts as  +sic Jason dixit?

Or have I told you?

Have I told you, how and how not to address me? Or asked?

Please, link to where you told me not to call you Pete?

And of all the points made in my post, that is most striking to you?

IOW, it wasn't +sic Jason dixit.

Try again.

Isn't my username orthonorm? Weird. Why is Pete so terrible? I think Jason is sorta cool.

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« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2011, 02:01:46 PM »

Also, why did Paul tell Onesimus to return to his master? Do men, especially Christians, not belong to God and not other men?

PP
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« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2011, 02:06:07 PM »

So why then, follow any law that is not specifically stated in scripture? So why obey traffic laws? Why buy anything? You're using God's money to buy God's stuff. Why did Mary and Joseph go back to be counted in the census? Did God not put Caesar in power? Does not God put all rulers in their place?

PP

Who are you responding to? Cause this hits nowhere near my post. Again, you all are getting caught up in the minutia before getting one of the simple and rather important points of the exchange.
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« Reply #140 on: September 19, 2011, 02:07:02 PM »

Also, why did Paul tell Onesimus to return to his master? Do men, especially Christians, not belong to God and not other men?

PP

Again. If you can't argue fundamentals.

I don't think you are even reading what I wrote.
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« Reply #141 on: September 19, 2011, 02:15:05 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
Have I told you before to not call me Pete?

No.

Have I asked you to refer to my posts as  +sic Jason dixit?

Or have I told you?

Have I told you, how and how not to address me? Or asked?

Please, link to where you told me not to call you Pete?

And of all the points made in my post, that is most striking to you?

IOW, it wasn't +sic Jason dixit.

Try again.

Isn't my username orthonorm? Weird. Why is Pete so terrible? I think Jason is sorta cool.
Let me put it to you this way: I hate being called Pete. What you may think of the name is immaterial. I hate the name and I ask you now not to call me that. If you are not willing to grant me the respect of honoring my request that you not call me a name I hate to be called, then I don't see why your requests for respect are deserving of any honor.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 02:15:30 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #142 on: September 19, 2011, 02:15:55 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?

Wow. And I was thinking your last few posts were arrogant. How can you ever expect to learn anything when you interact with people in this way?

The point of a discussion is not to try to prove that you are smarter than your interlocutor(s). You seem to be frustrated that others are not understanding your points, or trying to sidestep them, etc. Perhaps if you altered your style of argumentation in such a way that you came off friendlier and less conceited you would obtain better results. I say this as someone who often struggles with my own tendencies toward belligerence and conceit, but who has found that when I can manage a bit of modesty, I learn a great deal more.
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« Reply #143 on: September 19, 2011, 02:18:15 PM »

Also, why did Paul tell Onesimus to return to his master? Do men, especially Christians, not belong to God and not other men?

PP

Again. If you can't argue fundamentals.

I don't think you are even reading what I wrote.
Im not asking to argue, Im asking because Im interested in opinion. Im not attacking anyone's position. if I didnt make that clear, sry.

PP
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« Reply #144 on: September 19, 2011, 02:20:50 PM »

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not entirely sure I know what you are arguing.  How does the world being God's have any bearing on taxation?  I can name one thing in this world that if not God's and that would be human free will.  God can advise, instruct, and influence us, but by His own decree we have a free choice.  Everything we do day in and day out if of our free will.  It is best for us if we make our will match God's, but every sin committed is evidence of our will not being in sync with God's.  God's kingdom is not of this world, Christ said that.  God does not require that we pay taxes.  God does not require that we obey speed limits.  Those things are of our own creation.  God cares as much for taxes as the police care about what I do in a D&D game.  In the public world we follow the rules of the game.  When the game conflicts with God's rules, then is the time to pick where we stand.  But up til that point, the money, or the value that we place in it, is not something God is concerned with.  Give it to Caesar.  Or better yet, get rid of it, turn off the game, and follow Christ.
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« Reply #145 on: September 19, 2011, 02:28:31 PM »

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not entirely sure I know what you are arguing.  How does the world being God's have any bearing on taxation?  I can name one thing in this world that if not God's and that would be human free will.  God can advise, instruct, and influence us, but by His own decree we have a free choice.  Everything we do day in and day out if of our free will.  It is best for us if we make our will match God's, but every sin committed is evidence of our will not being in sync with God's.  God's kingdom is not of this world, Christ said that.  God does not require that we pay taxes.  God does not require that we obey speed limits.  Those things are of our own creation.  God cares as much for taxes as the police care about what I do in a D&D game.  In the public world we follow the rules of the game.  When the game conflicts with God's rules, then is the time to pick where we stand.  But up til that point, the money, or the value that we place in it, is not something God is concerned with.  Give it to Caesar.  Or better yet, get rid of it, turn off the game, and follow Christ.
Firstly, glad to see someone else plays D&D Smiley

Ok, I am asking because I want to know is there a line in the sand concerning this or do we only obey God and never the law. There are instances in scripture of people obeying the law (Onesimus' sending back by Paul) and in the book of Romans about obeying authorities. I just wanted to know what opinions on this was. To me, taxation is irrelevant because no matter how many folks "say" not to, or are saying that Christ says not to, or whatever, they all do or they would not be posting here, they'd be in prison so to me its a moot point.

Please note that im not accusing anyone of "saying" anything on here but this has gone 'round the internet for some time about all kinds of folks not paying taxes because of this-or-that reason in scripture.
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« Reply #146 on: September 19, 2011, 02:36:46 PM »

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not entirely sure I know what you are arguing.  How does the world being God's have any bearing on taxation?  I can name one thing in this world that if not God's and that would be human free will.  God can advise, instruct, and influence us, but by His own decree we have a free choice.  Everything we do day in and day out if of our free will.  It is best for us if we make our will match God's, but every sin committed is evidence of our will not being in sync with God's.  God's kingdom is not of this world, Christ said that.  God does not require that we pay taxes.  God does not require that we obey speed limits.  Those things are of our own creation.  God cares as much for taxes as the police care about what I do in a D&D game.  In the public world we follow the rules of the game.  When the game conflicts with God's rules, then is the time to pick where we stand.  But up til that point, the money, or the value that we place in it, is not something God is concerned with.  Give it to Caesar.  Or better yet, get rid of it, turn off the game, and follow Christ.
Firstly, glad to see someone else plays D&D Smiley

Ok, I am asking because I want to know is there a line in the sand concerning this or do we only obey God and never the law. There are instances in scripture of people obeying the law (Onesimus' sending back by Paul) and in the book of Romans about obeying authorities. I just wanted to know what opinions on this was. To me, taxation is irrelevant because no matter how many folks "say" not to, or are saying that Christ says not to, or whatever, they all do or they would not be posting here, they'd be in prison so to me its a moot point.

Please note that im not accusing anyone of "saying" anything on here but this has gone 'round the internet for some time about all kinds of folks not paying taxes because of this-or-that reason in scripture.

1- Rogues for the win!

2- I should have been more clear.  I was aiming for orthonorm.  I get what you are saying just fine.  If you are part of worldly society (which most of us are) play by the rules of society.  Caesar's is whatever he has the firepower to take.  I see as much morality in society's rules as I do in the rules for D&D.  I obey society's rules not because my conscience tells me to.  I obey them for two reasons and two reasons alone.  1: When society's laws and God's laws are the same then I will be doing my utmost to obey these laws regardless of all other factors.  2: When society's laws and God's laws are different, so long as society's laws don't conflict with God's laws I will obey them because society can muster more firepower than I can.  But you better believe that if the roles were reversed and I had more guns and more men holding them, I wouldn't give a pickled turd for taxes, stop signs, or copyrights.
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« Reply #147 on: September 19, 2011, 02:37:02 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
Have I told you before to not call me Pete?

No.

Have I asked you to refer to my posts as  +sic Jason dixit?

Or have I told you?

Have I told you, how and how not to address me? Or asked?

Please, link to where you told me not to call you Pete?

And of all the points made in my post, that is most striking to you?

IOW, it wasn't +sic Jason dixit.

Try again.

Isn't my username orthonorm? Weird. Why is Pete so terrible? I think Jason is sorta cool.



Now to my +sic Jason dixit (Would you rather I say Also sprach orthonorm?): You appear to be trying to have the last word on this discussion by shutting down all other debate. For instance:

Actually I ain't. Well people may disagree with my point, but they are wrong. This ain't "opinion time. It's basic Judeo-Christianity.

...

...

In short.

You can lay all the questions about Rendering to Caesar aside.

/thread.

...

As I said before. You all can stop.

/thread.

...

If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

...

I hope this is just an act and that you don't really mean to be this domineering. But if you really are serious, be advised that this is a discussion forum, not a soap box. This is a place for all to engage in discussion and the free exchange of ideas and opinions. Attempts to dominate discussions and shut them down with statements of "I, orthonorm, have spoken! There is therefore no need for further discussion," are indeed most unwelcome and only make you look like an egotistical windbag.
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« Reply #148 on: September 19, 2011, 02:48:24 PM »

My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.
"World" in the NT is also a translation of "Kosmas" which for our purposes means "[fallen] order of things".

When Christ says "I am not of this world" he is not saying "I am not of this Aeon" but "I am not of this Kosmos".
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« Reply #149 on: September 19, 2011, 04:35:51 PM »

I am calling for a recess of 24 hours to allow passions to cool down. See you tomorrow, Second Chance
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« Reply #150 on: September 20, 2011, 02:08:58 PM »

Thread is now unlocked. Please refrain from personal attacks on each other as this detracts from others' enjoyment of the discussion. Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #151 on: September 20, 2011, 04:29:56 PM »

Matthew 17:25
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?” 26“From others,” Peter answered.
“Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him.

Christ told us that we are exempt. 

Caesar was collecting from foreigners whom were the Jews.

So saying "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's...." does not apply.   
The Jews in Israel were foreigners to Caesar.

So the question remains without justification.  When the Orthodox pays taxes and it funds wars and misc other things that are not Christian is it "sinful", seeing that we are exempt.
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« Reply #152 on: September 20, 2011, 04:45:05 PM »

Matthew 17:25
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?” 26“From others,” Peter answered.
“Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him.
Read on, yesh. You're only giving us half the story. It continues on.

"However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel; that that and give it to them for Me and for yourself."  ~ Matthew 17:27

Even though He deemed Himself and His disciples exempt from paying the temple tax, He went ahead and had Peter pay it anyway and [miraculously] provided him the means to do so.
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« Reply #153 on: September 20, 2011, 04:56:26 PM »

Matthew 17:25
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?” 26“From others,” Peter answered.
“Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him.

Christ told us that we are exempt. 

Caesar was collecting from foreigners whom were the Jews.

So saying "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's...." does not apply.   
The Jews in Israel were foreigners to Caesar.

So the question remains without justification.  When the Orthodox pays taxes and it funds wars and misc other things that are not Christian is it "sinful", seeing that we are exempt.


You are missing the point horribly.  For one, here is the full story:

 24And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

 25He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

 26Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

 27Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.




Then there is also the fact that our Lord and Saviour was pointing out an historical fact.  Romans and the inhabitants of Italy were exempt from taxes.
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« Reply #154 on: September 20, 2011, 04:59:50 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.
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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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« Reply #155 on: September 20, 2011, 05:22:40 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.

Yeah, I need to as well.  Peter was the first mouse to the cheese.
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« Reply #156 on: September 20, 2011, 05:27:16 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.

Yeah, I need to as well.  Peter was the first mouse to the cheese.
You snooze, you lose! Wink
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« Reply #157 on: September 20, 2011, 05:31:03 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.

There is precedent for closing off a thread when the subject is exhausted. One of the criteria for determining that point is the repeated unresponsiveness of the OP, when the OP basically uses the thread as a soap box rather than a discussion forum. When I get the sense that many of the posters are starting to get frustrated by the actions and/or inactions of the OP, I will consider applying that rule.  Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #158 on: September 20, 2011, 05:38:56 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.

There is precedent for closing off a thread when the subject is exhausted. One of the criteria for determining that point is the repeated unresponsiveness of the OP, when the OP basically uses the thread as a soap box rather than a discussion forum. When I get the sense that many of the posters are starting to get frustrated by the actions and/or inactions of the OP, I will consider applying that rule.  Thanks, Second Chance

For what it's worth. I didn't even notice that yeshuaisiam was the OP.  I started checking here again because I was interested in continuing the debate with orthonorm.  Just got side tracked!
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