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Author Topic: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?  (Read 4641 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: September 10, 2011, 07:44:48 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2011, 09:02:45 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2011, 09:27:04 PM »

That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2011, 09:31:47 PM »

That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
+1
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2011, 10:08:44 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2011, 10:34:18 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
You don't think Romans ever killed babies? Read up on Roman war practices some time.

Also,
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
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biro
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2011, 10:41:04 PM »

The Hyde Amendment has kept U.S. government money from paying for abortions for over 30 years.
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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2011, 10:53:14 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks

As far as I know, the Hyde amendment is still in force in regard to abortions. Despite wars and executions, I still consider taxes as a source for good in society.  Others certainly differ.
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2011, 11:04:32 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?

Infanticide common in Roman empire
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2011, 11:05:11 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
I've heard a thing or two about how the ancient Romans practiced infanticide. How is that any different?
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2011, 11:06:26 PM »

If you don't pay your taxes, you may go to jail. No matter how principled your beliefs, I'm not sure jail is a place you want to go. There are other ways to fight abortion besides not paying your taxes.
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2011, 11:29:39 PM »

That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2011, 11:41:54 PM »

That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2011, 11:43:03 PM »

My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)

For some people, a given issue does weigh on their consciences that much, and so not paying taxes might be the right move for them to make. But again, such choices have consequences and those individuals must be willing to face them.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 11:48:30 PM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2011, 11:53:50 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
I would assume he did know it was used for that. Omniscience and all that.

Why? Do you believe you have a moral obligation to dodge taxes? On what do you base this?
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2011, 11:57:57 PM »

Almost every country in the world has some kind of government, which collects taxes. There are a few countries which don't seem to have a stable government- and these seem to be too dangerous to even live in. So even if you went somewhere else, the same thing would probably happen. Nobody likes paying taxes, but it's hard to get around it. Even when you go buy candy, they get the sales tax. You stand to lose a lot more by going to jail than you would by paying taxes.

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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2011, 12:01:58 AM »

Taxes are strictly meant for the lower classes. The rich have earned the right to not be burdened by such silly things. How does this relate to the OP? Stop being an intellectual slave to the man and think about it!
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2011, 12:03:30 AM »

It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2011, 12:04:41 AM »

We have saints who were members of the Roman military. It doesn't seem that the early church objected to that.
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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2011, 12:06:02 AM »

It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.
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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2011, 12:13:19 AM »

It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.

I'm not sure I follow.  Please elaborate.
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2011, 12:21:27 AM »

It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.

I'm not sure I follow.  Please elaborate.
Well, someone in such a country might just say, "Well, owning Bibles is illegal, I guess I should just throw mine out." Or, "Well, the law says I have to convert to Islam. I better get on that."
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2011, 12:49:44 AM »

It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.

I'm not sure I follow.  Please elaborate.
Well, someone in such a country might just say, "Well, owning Bibles is illegal, I guess I should just throw mine out." Or, "Well, the law says I have to convert to Islam. I better get on that."

Not at all analogous. 
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2011, 04:37:59 PM »

My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)

For some people, a given issue does weigh on their consciences that much, and so not paying taxes might be the right move for them to make. But again, such choices have consequences and those individuals must be willing to face them.

This is very interesting.  By doing this one would be suffering for God's sake.
(consider international abortions not protected by the amendment)

It's interesting how we can not serve both God and money too.   If we make money, then we end up being forced to pay for many of these things.  Without money, one must learn to either barter or live with the creation.  (Earthships?)
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2011, 04:41:50 PM »

It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.

I'm not sure I follow.  Please elaborate.
Well, someone in such a country might just say, "Well, owning Bibles is illegal, I guess I should just throw mine out." Or, "Well, the law says I have to convert to Islam. I better get on that."

Not at all analogous. 

I think both of you have points.  They are indeed taken, however, does it make it right?  I can see the comparison with the bible - if you are forced to give up your bible but you keep it because of your religious beliefs - you are supporting a cause of conscious.

If you do not pay taxes because they are being used (any country) for immoral purposes, then you are supporting a cause of conscious.

Both can get you in trouble.
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2011, 04:49:40 PM »

If we make money, then we end up being forced to pay for many of these things.  Without money, one must learn to either barter or live with the creation.  (Earthships?)


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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2011, 04:51:24 PM »

My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  Wink )
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2011, 04:52:17 PM »


Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.



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« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2011, 05:29:59 PM »

That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.
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« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2011, 05:44:03 PM »

That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.

Yeah Claudius was pretty much the first time a nerd came to power.  I would give my left pinkey to have a copy of his history of the Punics.
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« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2011, 06:23:09 PM »

That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.
I see.
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« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2011, 06:26:02 PM »

My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  Wink )


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« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2011, 06:37:17 PM »

That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.
I see.
So did most of Rome, except Claudius.
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« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2011, 06:40:33 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
You don't think Romans ever killed babies? Read up on Roman war practices some time.
[/b]
Also,
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.

Taxes were paid to Herod's government, scripture tells us what he did to all of the male children following Our Saviour's nativity......

You probably read that my area has suffered this past week from a traumatic and widespread flood. The flooding ran the 300 mile course of the Susquehanna River. But for the decades of work undertaken by the Army Corps of Engineers in terms of flood wall and levee constructions, watershed management and dams, coupled with the emergency planning and management undertaken by state and local government agencies, the suffering in terms of injury and death and the economic costs of the such a flood would be unimaginable. Taxes paid for these public improvements and for the public servants who manage them.
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« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2011, 06:58:40 PM »

That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.

Yeah Claudius was pretty much the first time a nerd came to power.
the odd thing that is how he came to power: everyone thought he was too much a dope to seize power, and left him alone.  When he did rise to power, he did a rather fine job.

I would give my left pinkey to have a copy of his history of the Punics.
His Etruscan history and dictionary would be invaluable.
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« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2011, 01:03:34 AM »

My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  Wink )

I'm hoping to get a job soon.  Do they actually check if you're REALLY a Jew when you put the red "J" on the return?  I was hoping to use this trick to not pay my taxes.
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« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2011, 01:12:29 AM »

I'm hoping to get a job soon.  Do they actually check if you're REALLY a Jew when you put the red "J" on the return?  I was hoping to use this trick to not pay my taxes.

They control everything. If you get a job, your information will automatically be forwarded to all the relevant people. The whole "J" thing is just to make the process easier and run more efficiently, but trust me, it won't take more than a few seconds for them to pull up your file.  Although Tallitot exaggerates a bit, since his status as a GWC (gay white convert) is not much higher than your status as a SWAG (straight white american goy).
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« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2011, 02:30:22 AM »

If you don't pay your taxes, you may go to jail. No matter how principled your beliefs, I'm not sure jail is a place you want to go. There are other ways to fight abortion besides not paying your taxes.
But what about all that money that goes for chemical, biological and atomic weapons? Surely these are immoral as their use would result in largescale civilian casualties. According to the RCC teaching (I don't know if the Orthodox agree with this):CCC 2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."
 
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« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2011, 10:24:27 AM »

My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  Wink )

I'm hoping to get a job soon.  Do they actually check if you're REALLY a Jew when you put the red "J" on the return?  I was hoping to use this trick to not pay my taxes.
You are circumsized aren't you? I'll put in a good word for you.
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« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2011, 01:45:57 PM »

nvm
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« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2011, 03:13:14 PM »

My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  Wink )

I'm hoping to get a job soon.  Do they actually check if you're REALLY a Jew when you put the red "J" on the return?  I was hoping to use this trick to not pay my taxes.

It's not wise to lie to the Jewish cabal controlling the panglobal judaeomasonicpapist conspiracy.
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« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2011, 03:16:25 PM »

If you don't pay your taxes, you may go to jail. No matter how principled your beliefs, I'm not sure jail is a place you want to go. There are other ways to fight abortion besides not paying your taxes.
But what about all that money that goes for chemical, biological and atomic weapons? Surely these are immoral as their use would result in largescale civilian casualties. According to the RCC teaching (I don't know if the Orthodox agree with this):CCC 2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."
 


The individual citizen, from whom the agents of Satan in charge of government in republican democracies extract taxes, has naught to fear morally from taxation. Voting may be another matter. This is why it is morally safer to live in an Orthodox autocracy. Even if the emperor is a heretic, no one votes for him and his crimes are on his own head and cannot easily be passed off to a faceless, soulless bureaucracy indulgent in callous officiousness and extremely bad poetry.
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« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2011, 03:49:42 PM »

Firstly, The Emperor Tiberius had the weird stuff in Capri and he was the emperor during the entireity of Jesus' earthly ministry. Claudius was stuttering and stammering his way through the imperial palace at the time and Caligula was still breaking in his caliga with his father at the time....he was only about 10 yrs old during Jesus' crucifixion.

Second, let me ask you a question. We are told to give to the poor. If you gave a poor man $5 and he used it on a prostitute, did you sin? Of course not. You are not responsible for what a beneficiary of your obedience to the Lord does with that money. If so, alot of churches are sinning alot because I'm sure some of the poor folks receiving any money from churches are using it for drugs or other bad things.

We are told to obey the law until the Law and God part ways. I am not responsible for what my government does with my money. I AM responsible for obeying Christ when he says to render unto Caesar.

PP


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Quote
No, but his third wife did.
yeah, with her brother Caligula...blech.....
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« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2011, 03:52:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?

Are you suggesting that the Incarnate God did not know something in particular?

The statement Christ made with the denarius regarding taxes is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in Romans 13.

Apostle Paul writes, " Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." The Apostle is not trying to insinuate that all governments are perfect and rosy, rather that flaws and all (as overwhelming as they can be) God establishes all and further respects free-will.

Part of our Church life is to learn to understand that all of life is a gift of God, even those aspects we find less than fortunate.  

"This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

We should not as Christians feel guilty when we pay our taxes which contribute necessarily to war, systematic poverty, corruption, greed, ecological devastation, and all sorts of human suffering.  The world was this way in Christ's time, and Christ has sent the Church into the world.

We must learn to adjust our lives to the Will of God, and to accept it.  Just as it is natural that humans die, even in the Christian sense of "sleeping", still we have to learn with God how to properly deal with our grief.  Well its the same thing with our gripe.  The world is a mess, so what? God expects us to carry on and do His Will and His Works in cooperation through out the world.

Now this does get complicated in situations, for example like the US Civil Rights movement of the Doctor King era.  Civil disobedience, freedom marches, sit-ins and demonstrations, all of these were non-violent and Christian in spirit and yet were also seeming to contradict authority of the law/government and even the will of many of the common people.  I would say that these were appropriate, but only if we as Christians take these kinds of matters to our God in prayer and to our priests to help us truly stay balanced and harmonized.  God has called many martyrs and witnesses to stand up against the System, however these were CALLED by God for such a purpose, we can not succeed if we call ourselves.

For example, both Peter and Paul both were miraculously released from prison.  When Peter left the second gate by the hand of the Angel, he knew very well he was "breaking the Law" and obviously disobeying the authority of the government, and yet having been aided by an Angel in Divine Providence, surely this was the Will of God.  But it is a specific instance, not the ideal or the norm.  Paul's example is similar but more obvious to the point.  When Paul was to be released he challenged the warden to make sure it was all legitimate, and not merely to sneak them out the back door. In both instances, it seems clear that the Apostles did not necessarily act entirely on their own volition, but were moved by God.

As a man thoroughly grounded in the ideals and movements of social justice and equality, I have often been conflicted sometimes by these Scriptures and the Church history sometimes in regards to connections with the governments.  But we must remember the Lord lets His Son shine upon wicked and just alike, and lets the wheat and the chaff grow together alongside each other.  It is not for us to judge God, but to let God do the Judging.  We can still condemn the wrongs of the world, but we must do such in the Grace of God.  I have learned from my walk in Orthodox to trust God in all things, and it can be hard.  Really, this is an elaborated version of "why do bad things happen to good people?"

There answer is the same.  Seek prayer and of the course the age-old Orthodox adage, "Ask your priest."
My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)
As you can see in God's Grace our fathers often have the best answers Smiley

I would say civil and human rights movements, so long as they are grounded within the Church (such as those of the recent Roman Catholic social justice movements) they fit in.  Catholics speak out against abortion, but they still pay their taxes.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2011, 04:12:26 PM »

Firstly, The Emperor Tiberius had the weird stuff in Capri and he was the emperor during the entireity of Jesus' earthly ministry. Claudius was stuttering and stammering his way through the imperial palace at the time and Caligula was still breaking in his caliga with his father at the time....he was only about 10 yrs old during Jesus' crucifixion.

Second, let me ask you a question. We are told to give to the poor. If you gave a poor man $5 and he used it on a prostitute, did you sin? Of course not. You are not responsible for what a beneficiary of your obedience to the Lord does with that money. If so, alot of churches are sinning alot because I'm sure some of the poor folks receiving any money from churches are using it for drugs or other bad things.

We are told to obey the law until the Law and God part ways. I am not responsible for what my government does with my money. I AM responsible for obeying Christ when he says to render unto Caesar.

PP


P.S.

Quote
No, but his third wife did.
yeah, with her brother Caligula...blech.....
Thanks for correcting my rusty chronology.
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« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2011, 04:13:47 PM »

Firstly, The Emperor Tiberius had the weird stuff in Capri and he was the emperor during the entireity of Jesus' earthly ministry. Claudius was stuttering and stammering his way through the imperial palace at the time and Caligula was still breaking in his caliga with his father at the time....he was only about 10 yrs old during Jesus' crucifixion.

Second, let me ask you a question. We are told to give to the poor. If you gave a poor man $5 and he used it on a prostitute, did you sin? Of course not. You are not responsible for what a beneficiary of your obedience to the Lord does with that money. If so, alot of churches are sinning alot because I'm sure some of the poor folks receiving any money from churches are using it for drugs or other bad things.

We are told to obey the law until the Law and God part ways. I am not responsible for what my government does with my money. I AM responsible for obeying Christ when he says to render unto Caesar.

PP


P.S.

Quote
No, but his third wife did.
yeah, with her brother Caligula...blech.....
Thanks for correcting my rusty chronology.
No sweat mate...you've corrected me once or twice Smiley

PP
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« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2011, 04:15:38 PM »

If you don't pay your taxes, you may go to jail. No matter how principled your beliefs, I'm not sure jail is a place you want to go. There are other ways to fight abortion besides not paying your taxes.
But what about all that money that goes for chemical, biological and atomic weapons? Surely these are immoral as their use would result in largescale civilian casualties. According to the RCC teaching (I don't know if the Orthodox agree with this):CCC 2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."
  


The individual citizen, from whom the agents of Satan in charge of government in republican democracies extract taxes, has naught to fear morally from taxation. Voting may be another matter. This is why it is morally safer to live in an Orthodox autocracy. Even if the emperor is a heretic, no one votes for him and his crimes are on his own head and cannot easily be passed off to a faceless, soulless bureaucracy indulgent in callous officiousness and extremely bad poetry.
Well, that depends. I would say the guilt of voting is based on what consequences and policy decisions were forseeable at the time of election. Politicians rarely keep their campaign promises and such.
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« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2011, 04:58:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?

Are you suggesting that the Incarnate God did not know something in particular?

The statement Christ made with the denarius regarding taxes is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in Romans 13.

Apostle Paul writes, " Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." The Apostle is not trying to insinuate that all governments are perfect and rosy, rather that flaws and all (as overwhelming as they can be) God establishes all and further respects free-will.

Part of our Church life is to learn to understand that all of life is a gift of God, even those aspects we find less than fortunate.  

"This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

We should not as Christians feel guilty when we pay our taxes which contribute necessarily to war, systematic poverty, corruption, greed, ecological devastation, and all sorts of human suffering.  The world was this way in Christ's time, and Christ has sent the Church into the world.

We must learn to adjust our lives to the Will of God, and to accept it.  Just as it is natural that humans die, even in the Christian sense of "sleeping", still we have to learn with God how to properly deal with our grief.  Well its the same thing with our gripe.  The world is a mess, so what? God expects us to carry on and do His Will and His Works in cooperation through out the world.

Now this does get complicated in situations, for example like the US Civil Rights movement of the Doctor King era.  Civil disobedience, freedom marches, sit-ins and demonstrations, all of these were non-violent and Christian in spirit and yet were also seeming to contradict authority of the law/government and even the will of many of the common people.  I would say that these were appropriate, but only if we as Christians take these kinds of matters to our God in prayer and to our priests to help us truly stay balanced and harmonized.  God has called many martyrs and witnesses to stand up against the System, however these were CALLED by God for such a purpose, we can not succeed if we call ourselves.

For example, both Peter and Paul both were miraculously released from prison.  When Peter left the second gate by the hand of the Angel, he knew very well he was "breaking the Law" and obviously disobeying the authority of the government, and yet having been aided by an Angel in Divine Providence, surely this was the Will of God.  But it is a specific instance, not the ideal or the norm.  Paul's example is similar but more obvious to the point.  When Paul was to be released he challenged the warden to make sure it was all legitimate, and not merely to sneak them out the back door. In both instances, it seems clear that the Apostles did not necessarily act entirely on their own volition, but were moved by God.

As a man thoroughly grounded in the ideals and movements of social justice and equality, I have often been conflicted sometimes by these Scriptures and the Church history sometimes in regards to connections with the governments.  But we must remember the Lord lets His Son shine upon wicked and just alike, and lets the wheat and the chaff grow together alongside each other.  It is not for us to judge God, but to let God do the Judging.  We can still condemn the wrongs of the world, but we must do such in the Grace of God.  I have learned from my walk in Orthodox to trust God in all things, and it can be hard.  Really, this is an elaborated version of "why do bad things happen to good people?"

There answer is the same.  Seek prayer and of the course the age-old Orthodox adage, "Ask your priest."
My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)
As you can see in God's Grace our fathers often have the best answers Smiley

I would say civil and human rights movements, so long as they are grounded within the Church (such as those of the recent Roman Catholic social justice movements) they fit in.  Catholics speak out against abortion, but they still pay their taxes.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


As usual, thoughtful and a candidate for post of the month.
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« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2011, 05:22:00 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?

Actually, Jesus' taxes were used to kill someone more innocent and blameless than babies: Himself.
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« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2011, 07:09:49 PM »

Actually, Jesus' taxes were used to kill someone more innocent and blameless than babies: Himself.

Jesus more innocent and blameless than babies? How so?
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« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2011, 07:26:18 PM »

Babies sin (without culpability), Jesus never sinned at all.
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« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2011, 07:32:19 PM »

Babies sin

Do they?
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« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2011, 07:36:06 PM »

Babies are essentially animals in behavior, they participate in fallen nature. This is especially true if one can sin involuntarily, as Orthodoxy teaches.
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« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2011, 07:40:22 PM »

Babies are essentially animals in behavior, they participate in fallen nature. This is especially true if one can sin involuntarily, as Orthodoxy teaches.

Still trying to wrap my head around the concept. Can you give a specific example of a sin that they commit? I can half-way go along with the idea of adults committing and being guilty of involuntary sins... not so sure about babies.
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« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2011, 11:28:26 PM »

Babies are essentially animals in behavior, they participate in fallen nature. This is especially true if one can sin involuntarily, as Orthodoxy teaches.

Still trying to wrap my head around the concept. Can you give a specific example of a sin that they commit? I can half-way go along with the idea of adults committing and being guilty of involuntary sins... not so sure about babies.
They see something they want, they steal it.
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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2011, 01:48:31 AM »

Can you steal something without being able to know about concepts like property and such, and knowing that people consider some things theirs? Also, in what sense do babies want it? Is it in an acquisitive or greedy sense? Don't you need to understand what you're doing for that to be so? I realise there are passages about being sinful from the womb and all that, but doesn't the Scriptures also speak of things as only being potentially sinful until you have some understanding in the matter?

"Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." - Jn. 9:41

"If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin." - Jn. 15:22
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« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2011, 01:51:17 AM »

Maybe. I'm not sure.
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« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2011, 02:48:54 AM »

My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)

For some people, a given issue does weigh on their consciences that much, and so not paying taxes might be the right move for them to make. But again, such choices have consequences and those individuals must be willing to face them.


I think this is a good answer. The question of the OP is one that deserves more consideration than we usually give it. Too often we seek justification from Scripture to assuage our consciences and do the less difficult thing rather than to engage our consciences and struggle with what is best.

As unOrthodox as he was, I still believe that Thoreau's essay "On Civil Disobedience" provides some worthy insights on the matter. It is difficult in our society to avoid paying any type of tax at all, because most of us pay taxes even when we shop for groceries and buy gasoline. So it's almost impossible to avoid it altogether. But I think this Priest is basically correct. The only thing I would add is that I don't think it is abandoning our family to give our lives to the "least of these". Ideally, we should prioritize the "least of these" while also reamining committed to our families. But since many Christians have no qualms about abandoning their families to go off to war, then I don't think it should be considered "abandoning our families" if we are taken to prison for not paying taxes as a result of our moral Christian convictions.


Selam

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« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2011, 04:49:38 AM »

My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)

For some people, a given issue does weigh on their consciences that much, and so not paying taxes might be the right move for them to make. But again, such choices have consequences and those individuals must be willing to face them.


I think this is a good answer. The question of the OP is one that deserves more consideration than we usually give it. Too often we seek justification from Scripture to assuage our consciences and do the less difficult thing rather than to engage our consciences and struggle with what is best.

As unOrthodox as he was, I still believe that Thoreau's essay "On Civil Disobedience" provides some worthy insights on the matter. It is difficult in our society to avoid paying any type of tax at all, because most of us pay taxes even when we shop for groceries and buy gasoline. So it's almost impossible to avoid it altogether. But I think this Priest is basically correct. The only thing I would add is that I don't think it is abandoning our family to give our lives to the "least of these". Ideally, we should prioritize the "least of these" while also reamining committed to our families. But since many Christians have no qualms about abandoning their families to go off to war, then I don't think it should be considered "abandoning our families" if we are taken to prison for not paying taxes as a result of our moral Christian convictions.


Selam


I don;t see the use of torture as moral and I don;t see the stockpiling of nuclear bombs, chemical and biological weapons as something that Christ would have wanted us to do.
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« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2011, 04:54:57 AM »

My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)

For some people, a given issue does weigh on their consciences that much, and so not paying taxes might be the right move for them to make. But again, such choices have consequences and those individuals must be willing to face them.


I think this is a good answer. The question of the OP is one that deserves more consideration than we usually give it. Too often we seek justification from Scripture to assuage our consciences and do the less difficult thing rather than to engage our consciences and struggle with what is best.

As unOrthodox as he was, I still believe that Thoreau's essay "On Civil Disobedience" provides some worthy insights on the matter. It is difficult in our society to avoid paying any type of tax at all, because most of us pay taxes even when we shop for groceries and buy gasoline. So it's almost impossible to avoid it altogether. But I think this Priest is basically correct. The only thing I would add is that I don't think it is abandoning our family to give our lives to the "least of these". Ideally, we should prioritize the "least of these" while also reamining committed to our families. But since many Christians have no qualms about abandoning their families to go off to war, then I don't think it should be considered "abandoning our families" if we are taken to prison for not paying taxes as a result of our moral Christian convictions.


Selam


I don;t see the use of torture as moral and I don;t see the stockpiling of nuclear bombs, chemical and biological weapons as something that Christ would have wanted us to do.


Neither do I.



Selam
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« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2011, 07:43:26 AM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
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« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2011, 08:17:53 AM »

^ Girl, you are rockin' it!
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« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2011, 08:57:52 AM »

Babies are essentially animals in behavior, they participate in fallen nature. This is especially true if one can sin involuntarily, as Orthodoxy teaches.

Another way of saying 'participate in fallen nature' is 'sin in Adam', 'participate in original sin'. Though not guilty of any personal sin, they are born under sin, the curse, and death because of the fall of our first parents in the garden. They have a nature corrupted by sin.

This is why we baptize 8-day-old infants (who have obviously committed no personal sins) "for the remission of sins". They are in need of the "new creation" as much as any adult.

Jesus was not born under sin, the curse, and death. He was not and could not have been tainted by ancestral sin.
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« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2011, 09:11:56 AM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.

Hear, hear!  As St. Thomas More once said, "The King's good servant...but God's first!"
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« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2011, 12:01:58 PM »


Quote
No, but his third wife did.
yeah, with her brother Caligula...blech.....

He was talking about Messalina, not Agrippina, Drusilla, and Livilla.
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« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2011, 12:47:38 PM »

Oh yeah! Forgot about her. She got the axe for the plot to kill him. *ugh* so hard to keep up with the wives....

PP
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« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2011, 02:19:13 PM »

Oh yeah! Forgot about her. She got the axe for the plot to kill him. *ugh* so hard to keep up with the wives....

PP

This part was pretty memorable in "I Clavdivs".
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« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2011, 02:45:38 PM »

My wife got me that for Christmas..I've yet to watch it though. Work too much Smiley

PP
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« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2011, 02:52:54 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
+1
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« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2011, 03:25:51 PM »

My wife got me that for Christmas..I've yet to watch it though. Work too much Smiley

PP

I assure you, on the cosmic scale of things I Claudius is more important than work!
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« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2011, 03:36:00 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
And there are countries which do not engage in torture and are not stockpiling chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, such as Luxembourg for example.
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« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2011, 03:40:23 PM »

My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)

For some people, a given issue does weigh on their consciences that much, and so not paying taxes might be the right move for them to make. But again, such choices have consequences and those individuals must be willing to face them.


I think this is a good answer. The question of the OP is one that deserves more consideration than we usually give it. Too often we seek justification from Scripture to assuage our consciences and do the less difficult thing rather than to engage our consciences and struggle with what is best.

As unOrthodox as he was, I still believe that Thoreau's essay "On Civil Disobedience" provides some worthy insights on the matter. It is difficult in our society to avoid paying any type of tax at all, because most of us pay taxes even when we shop for groceries and buy gasoline. So it's almost impossible to avoid it altogether. But I think this Priest is basically correct. The only thing I would add is that I don't think it is abandoning our family to give our lives to the "least of these". Ideally, we should prioritize the "least of these" while also reamining committed to our families. But since many Christians have no qualms about abandoning their families to go off to war, then I don't think it should be considered "abandoning our families" if we are taken to prison for not paying taxes as a result of our moral Christian convictions.


Selam



It's a fair point. Christ did say that if we were not willing to leave even our families for his sake, we are not worthy of him. Strong words from God's mouth. So, there may be times when a person is called to even abandon their family. (Though this should be weighed with utmost care, equal to the gravity of the calling.)

Civil disobedience is a great example. The Church calls us to obey our worldly authorities unless they require us to flatly disobey the laws of God. But there are often shades of gray, and different people will be called to take different stands. Saint George and others served in the pagan army of the Roman Empire, while untold numbers of martyrs resisted the same army. All of them were acceptable to God.

We must not put our hopes in men or invest our hopes in governments. But God and the Church realize these things exist, and I don't think we should either blindly march to the government's drumbeat or blindly live in the clouds. We must be rational sheep—especially we who live in democratic societies.

Tsar Nicholas II, I think, reigned with the awareness of his God-given responsibility to his nation. In a democratic society, we all share in that responsibility. When you have a Caesar who personally controls every aspect of his nation's life, obedience means one thing. When you have a democracy, obedience means something else.

Sometimes that means holding our nose while our governments enable infanticide (meanwhile fighting against it within the system), and sometimes that means overthrowing our government, and everything in between.
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« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2011, 03:41:55 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
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« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2011, 04:02:03 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
When the people shouted let His Blood be upon us and our children, were they not saying that they shared in the responsibility for His Death?
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« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2011, 04:17:50 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
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« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2011, 04:26:54 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
And there are countries which do not engage in torture and are not stockpiling chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, such as Luxembourg for example.

Do you really think that Christ, being an omnipresent, omniscient god would not have foreseen what the Nazi's would do when he said "pay unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar"? Do you think God didn't know about how man would continue on the path of self-destruction that started in the Garden of Eden?

That is why Christ came to this earth; not to be a political savior but a spiritual one. God knew that there was no way man on his own could save himself or create a government that would save him.

Christ came to conquer death; not to conquer Congress.
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« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2011, 04:27:37 PM »

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?

Do not think that Christ Jesus would of know what Caesar was using the denarius for, especially since I doubt it was beyond Caesar to kill babies.
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« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2011, 04:33:04 PM »

If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.

So what is your solution? No one pay their taxes until all governments comply with God's law? Then surely, I hope that you will not drive on any roads, send your children to public schools, go to any public libraries, accept any social security or disability benefits, or partake of the health care system in any country, as it is subsidized by the government. Also, please do not mail any letters using the Postal Service, or accept charity from any church, because federal dollars also go to those agencies. Since you don't believe in funding public services, please don't use them.

There are legal methods within the US Constitution to protest your government, and still pay your taxes. As for other countries, I do not know, as I am unfamiliar with their laws.
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« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2011, 04:34:03 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
And there are countries which do not engage in torture and are not stockpiling chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, such as Luxembourg for example.

Do you really think that Christ, being an omnipresent, omniscient god would not have foreseen what the Nazi's would do when he said "pay unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar"? Do you think God didn't know about how man would continue on the path of self-destruction that started in the Garden of Eden?

That is why Christ came to this earth; not to be a political savior but a spiritual one. God knew that there was no way man on his own could save himself or create a government that would save him.

Christ came to conquer death; not to conquer Congress.

Could we perhaps say that this is a matter of personal conscience, or in other words, that given the context, part of what Christ is saying is that we should refrain from judging others in this matter. I think it is no sin not to pay taxes to Hitler, and to accept the consequences, more than that, there is some nobility in such an act. But it is no sin in my opinion to pay taxes to Hitler.
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« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2011, 04:48:23 PM »

If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.

So what is your solution? No one pay their taxes until all governments comply with God's law? Then surely, I hope that you will not drive on any roads, send your children to public schools, go to any public libraries, accept any social security or disability benefits, or partake of the health care system in any country, as it is subsidized by the government. Also, please do not mail any letters using the Postal Service, or accept charity from any church, because federal dollars also go to those agencies. Since you don't believe in funding public services, please don't use them.

There are legal methods within the US Constitution to protest your government, and still pay your taxes. As for other countries, I do not know, as I am unfamiliar with their laws.
My solution would be to speak out against injustice and immorality, as is possible. And work as far as possible for peace.
To just go along, as the German soldiers did, and not speak out as is possible, seems to be wrong to me. We do have something of a shared responsibility in this, just as the German soldiers were executed at Nuremberg for following orders, even though they were only rendering to Caesar.
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« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2011, 04:49:57 PM »

But it is no sin in my opinion to pay taxes to Hitler.
And what is then your opinion concerning the fairness of the Nuremberg trials?
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« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2011, 04:59:47 PM »

But it is no sin in my opinion to pay taxes to Hitler.
And what is then your opinion concerning the fairness of the Nuremberg trials?

Totally fair. German taxpayers weren't on trial, Nazi leaders and bureaucrats were.
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« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2011, 06:14:06 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
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« Reply #83 on: September 14, 2011, 12:27:17 AM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
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« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2011, 01:50:34 AM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
And yet, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel, while the world court concept of "shared responsibility" is not.
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« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2011, 03:06:11 AM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
And yet, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel, while the world court concept of "shared responsibility" is not.
However, an Orthodox participant here says that the decisions of the Nuremberg trials were "totally fair". How can that be in accord with the gospel if the soldiers were  rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's by following the orders of Caesar? Nuremberg did not accept the defense of <<I was just following the orders of Caesar>>. By saying that Nuremberg was fair, you would be basically saying that the defense of <<rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's>> is not admissable.
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« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2011, 03:33:17 AM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
And yet, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel, while the world court concept of "shared responsibility" is not.
However, an Orthodox participant here says that the decisions of the Nuremberg trials were "totally fair". How can that be in accord with the gospel if the soldiers were  rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's by following the orders of Caesar? Nuremberg did not accept the defense of <<I was just following the orders of Caesar>>. By saying that Nuremberg was fair, you would be basically saying that the defense of <<rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's>> is not admissable.
But we're talking about paying taxes here. We're not talking about executing government policy. How does your line of questioning fit into whether it's moral or not to pay taxes?

Let me bring up this analogy to make my point: We're talking about whether it would be moral for us to pay taxes even if we knew that some of the money would be used to perform abortions, while you're asking whether we would consider it moral to actually use tax money to perform the abortions. We're talking about two totally different things here.
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« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2011, 03:35:05 AM »

You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels.

The Church has some teachings and beliefs that are not mentioned in the Gospel but it does not have ones that are contrary to it (in contrary to your religious organisation).

Quote
how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.

The Church, in contrary to the Vatican, doesn't have the need to have opinion on and interfere to everything everywhere.
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« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2011, 09:17:11 AM »

The Nuremburg trials really didn't add anything to world jurisprudence except that it formalized the fact that a victor can impose any conditions he wishes on the vanquished.  This concept goes as far back as to the Brennus vs Rome case of 390 BC.  See, war crimes and shared responsibility really only matter if you loose.  Germans, Japanese and Serbs have all been executed for war crimes (what ever those are), but more importantly they lost.  Loss is unforgivable.  See, most African militia leaders or dictators who chop up people, they generally get let off.  Primarily because the world community just doesn't care about Africa, unless of course it sells U2 concert tickets.  These Nuremburg trials did nothing to punish Soviet commanders who ordered rapes all across Eastern Europe.  Fire bombing civilians or giving a generation leukemia is perfectly fine, just make sure there is a star on you wing rather than a sun or a cross.

Actually, if you want Gospel proof that shared responsibility is bovine feces, you need to look no further than the Nuremburg trials.  The only part in the Gospel that I can remember that speaks of shared responsibility is the part about the blood being on their hands and on their children's hands.  If this were an actual moral/legal principle, then wouldn't the Holocaust have been justified since they were only punishing people for their shared responsibility?  No.  Punishing someone for someone else's sins is not a Christian principle.  Last time that happened our Savoir got nailed to a cross.
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« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2011, 03:11:50 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.

Paying taxes and "following orders" are not the same thing. Render to Caesar refers specifically to paying taxes. It does not necessarily refer to other forms of participation in the state.
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« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2011, 03:23:59 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
And yet, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel, while the world court concept of "shared responsibility" is not.
However, an Orthodox participant here says that the decisions of the Nuremberg trials were "totally fair". How can that be in accord with the gospel if the soldiers were  rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's by following the orders of Caesar? Nuremberg did not accept the defense of <<I was just following the orders of Caesar>>. By saying that Nuremberg was fair, you would be basically saying that the defense of <<rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's>> is not admissable.

Contrary to what you say, it is not Caesar's to have his orders followed.

The Gospel story in question consists of a specific question about taxes; an examination of a coin, revealing that Caesar's image is on it; the instruction to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Hence, the image imprinted on the coin identifies it as Caesar's. Likewise, the Image imprinted on man, identifies him as God's. Hence, 'we must obey God rather than men'. Paul's admonition to submit to the authorities simply helps to define what this means. Submit to the authorities except when they ask you to do something contrary to God's law.

You want to bring taxes back into the forefront of the question of God's authority vs. men's authority, but it looks to me like Jesus purposefully meant to exclude it from that dialectic as a matter of little importance. You are repeating the error of the Jewish leaders in doing so.
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« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2011, 03:44:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And there are countries which do not engage in torture and are not stockpiling chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, such as Luxembourg for example.



I hate to burst your bubble, but who do you think funds all these war-machines and political corruption Wink


The Nazis were a terrifying circumstance of the human experience, but we must not forget God was there too, perpetually sustaining even the lives of those butchers who extinguished life in such appalling numbers.  Further, theologically, do human beings even have the agency to take life or isn't that reserved for God alone? An individual expressing their free-will may try to kill another person, but only God actually takes away that life.  Plenty of people try to kill people unsuccessfully, and plenty of others die peacefully in their sleep.  In regards to the finality of life and death, these are up to God alone.  We are merely egoistically assuming that the agency of our free-will has such far-reaching impact, in reality it merely a vain assumption. 

This is why we have the example of Saint Michael the Archangel, who when "doubting the Adversary, arguing concerning the body of Moses, he dares not bring on a calumniating judging, but instead said, 'May the Lord rebuke you.'"

We must follow the Archangel, the Chief of the Heavenly Hosts, example in this instance, and reserve judgment to God.  With these intense, soul-wrenching discussions, we should not be turning inwards to our own internalized (and flawed) sense of morality, but must go to prayer with God to understand HIS WILL. Adam and Eve also relied on their own sense of morality and look where it got them and us.

The Nazis were scum.  So is the Adversary.  And yet, even these may be able to find God's mercy, so we should not be so quick to condemn them as much as we should be condemning their actions.  Further, in our condemnations, we must not be so personalized as pointing fingers saying "you" or "them" but rather must take in prayer and say "we" and "us" for all of humanity is one.

All of humanity is complicit in these crimes, these evils, these travesties..  We even tried to kill Jesus Christ in our lust for egoistical free-will, what more could we expect of ourselves? Better we should in all these matters say, "Lord have mercy on Us, sinners" and conclude with, "Father, let it not be according to our will, but let Your Will be accompished."

stay blessed,
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« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2011, 10:25:12 PM »

You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels.

The Church has some teachings and beliefs that are not mentioned in the Gospel but it does not have ones that are contrary to it (in contrary to your religious organisation).

Quote
how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.

The Church, in contrary to the Vatican, doesn't have the need to have opinion on and interfere to everything everywhere.
I would disagree. I don;t want to sidetrack this thread, but I hope it would not be out of order to respond to a false statement.  It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 
 
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« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2011, 10:26:30 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
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« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2011, 10:29:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And there are countries which do not engage in torture and are not stockpiling chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction, such as Luxembourg for example.



I hate to burst your bubble, but who do you think funds all these war-machines and political corruption Wink
Well, in listening to Ron Paul, it would have to be the USA? How many atomic bombs or military bases does Luxembourg have?
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« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2011, 10:52:56 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
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« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2011, 11:50:36 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.
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« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2011, 11:51:41 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
And yet, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel, while the world court concept of "shared responsibility" is not.
However, an Orthodox participant here says that the decisions of the Nuremberg trials were "totally fair". How can that be in accord with the gospel if the soldiers were  rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's by following the orders of Caesar? Nuremberg did not accept the defense of <<I was just following the orders of Caesar>>. By saying that Nuremberg was fair, you would be basically saying that the defense of <<rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's>> is not admissable.

Contrary to what you say, it is not Caesar's to have his orders followed.

The Gospel story in question consists of a specific question about taxes; an examination of a coin, revealing that Caesar's image is on it; the instruction to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Hence, the image imprinted on the coin identifies it as Caesar's. Likewise, the Image imprinted on man, identifies him as God's. Hence, 'we must obey God rather than men'. Paul's admonition to submit to the authorities simply helps to define what this means. Submit to the authorities except when they ask you to do something contrary to God's law.

You want to bring taxes back into the forefront of the question of God's authority vs. men's authority, but it looks to me like Jesus purposefully meant to exclude it from that dialectic as a matter of little importance. You are repeating the error of the Jewish leaders in doing so.
In some countries, Caesar demands both taxes and military service.
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« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2011, 11:52:32 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.

Protestants say a lot of things I would ordinarily attribute to drug-taking, were I not acutely aware of the power of brainwashing.
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« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2011, 12:05:29 AM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.

Protestants say a lot of things I would ordinarily attribute to drug-taking, were I not acutely aware of the power of brainwashing.
That may be true about taking drugs, but do the Gospels say "Call no man father"? I don't see what taking drugs has to do with this command we find in the Gospels?
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« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2011, 04:31:32 PM »

I would be really interested for anyone to point out when, during any time in history, any "moral" government ever existed that obeyed every single one of God's commandments.

King David himself committed murder, adultery, and countless other sins during his reign as King over Israel. My point is not to bash King David, but to point out that a man described as being "after God's heart," who was appointed by God through the Prophet Samuel was capable of sin.

If you are looking for a "moral" government, you are looking on the wrong planet. The only place where a "moral" government exists, or has ever existed, is in heaven itself.

Christ said give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Was this because Christ was advocating immoral governments? No, it was because we are not to build up our treasures on earth, but in heaven. Christ knew that no perfect government existed on earth, so why should we worry about returning the currency of the government to the government?

Americans in particular have this peculiar notion of creating this great Christian government so we can lead perfect Christian lives in our perfect Christian little bubble. Look at the Government under which the Apostles lived. It was a pagan empire and Christianity was a strange cult with a few hundred followers. Yet the Church flourished and God's will was done. If it could survive and thrive under those conditions, what does it say about our faith walk when we blame our government for not leading a moral life?

Pay your taxes, be a good civil servant, and follow God's commandments. The former is not in contradiction to the latter.
At the Nuremberg trials,  people were found guilty and executed even though they may have claimed that they were only following orders. The court ruled in favor of the doctrine of shared responsibility.  If people stand idly by and raise no objections,  while a country is stockpiling huge amounts of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, and is engaging in torturing people and waging war under false pretenses, then why would they not be guilty under the doctrine of shared responsibility?
But who gave us this doctrine of shared responsibility? Is it found in the Gospel, as "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel?
If there really is no shared responsibility, then would the logical conclusion be that it was immoral and wrong to try the German soldiers at Nuremberg? After all, they were only rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's since they were just obeying higher orders.
As I understand the subject of this thread, we're talking about whether it's contrary to the Gospel to pay or not pay taxes. You've introduced a concept of morality made by man, not one elucidated in the Gospel. I therefore fail to see how this concept of "shared responsibility" is a fair measure of what is sinful in the eyes of God. You're also talking about an active execution of government policies that goes well beyond merely paying taxes. How, then, is any of what you're arguing relevant to this discussion?
You are raisng a valid point here, but the original question concerned the Orthodox position and was not necessarily  limited to what is found in the Gospels. I was looking at whether in history, we see that society considers the dictum of  "Render to Casesar what is Caeser's" to relieve one of shared responsiblity. I believe that the Nuremberg trials show that a world court would not accept this dictum or the excuse that you were  just following orders  as a legitimate defense. So the question would be how does the Orthodox Church views the Nuremberg trials. If the Orthodox view the Nuremberg trials as fair, then it seems reasonalble to conclude that the  defense of Render to Caesar would not hold up.
And yet, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is found in the Gospel, while the world court concept of "shared responsibility" is not.
However, an Orthodox participant here says that the decisions of the Nuremberg trials were "totally fair". How can that be in accord with the gospel if the soldiers were  rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's by following the orders of Caesar? Nuremberg did not accept the defense of <<I was just following the orders of Caesar>>. By saying that Nuremberg was fair, you would be basically saying that the defense of <<rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's>> is not admissable.

Contrary to what you say, it is not Caesar's to have his orders followed.

The Gospel story in question consists of a specific question about taxes; an examination of a coin, revealing that Caesar's image is on it; the instruction to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Hence, the image imprinted on the coin identifies it as Caesar's. Likewise, the Image imprinted on man, identifies him as God's. Hence, 'we must obey God rather than men'. Paul's admonition to submit to the authorities simply helps to define what this means. Submit to the authorities except when they ask you to do something contrary to God's law.

You want to bring taxes back into the forefront of the question of God's authority vs. men's authority, but it looks to me like Jesus purposefully meant to exclude it from that dialectic as a matter of little importance. You are repeating the error of the Jewish leaders in doing so.
In some countries, Caesar demands both taxes and military service.

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's. If Caesar demand's worship, for example, he is to be politely declined, and the Christian is to accept the consequences, a la the three holy youths. Which leads us back to the other thing I was trying to say: there are other stories in the Bible and Tradition that help us understand how to deal with issues like military service. I see no immediate reason to believe the "render unto Caesar" story is about anything but taxes. It may be, but you would have to show how and why it is applicable in each other case.
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« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2011, 04:33:41 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father. 

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.

Protestants say a lot of things I would ordinarily attribute to drug-taking, were I not acutely aware of the power of brainwashing.
That may be true about taking drugs, but do the Gospels say "Call no man father"? I don't see what taking drugs has to do with this command we find in the Gospels?

The Gospels also say that we should cut off our hands if they offend us. 

The letter killeth...
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« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2011, 07:06:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?

Are you suggesting that the Incarnate God did not know something in particular?

Sorry I had to cut this down.

I didn't read the thread. I usually don't anymore because they are boring and go nowhere and it seems folks aren't even getting to the basics here.

But I did want to point this out.

Yes I know a lot that Jesus of Nazareth didn't know.

I know the calculus for one thing. Well I have a paper that says I do. 

More importantly, I wonder if anywhere in thread concerning this passage have the following IMPORTANT questions been established:

Where was Christ when this happened?
Why did he ask to SEE a coin, why not just ask who was on one?
What belongs to Caesar? (Most Christians crack me up with this one.)

I admit I did see something like Caesar's =/= Caesar's, so the last question was dealt with, but since the longwinded answers were following, I guess everyone failed.

What belongs to Caesar? Oh those other questions.

And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.

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« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2011, 07:11:17 PM »



And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.


He could probably kick your butt at a fish fry.
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« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2011, 07:19:07 PM »



And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.


He could probably kick your butt at a fish fry.

Doubt it. I would surprised it there were any foods I couldn't prepare better. We have the advantage of Food Science on our side and about 2000 more years and access to better appliances and variety of ingredients.

Now, as to making that last bit of Chilean Sea Bass* go a little further, hands down.

In fact, we could probably take it off the disappearing species list or whatever it is called.

*I do not actually eat this creature nor should you.
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« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2011, 07:57:20 PM »

It has been pointed out by others that there are teachings of the Orthodox Church which are contrary to the Gospels and to the New Testament messages. For one example, there is the command of Christ to call no man father.  

Come on, there are much better examples than that, I'm sure!
Especially coming from someone whose own church has priests whom the faithful regularly call "Father".
It has already been stated on this thread that the RCC has teachings contrary to the gospel, so it is not necessary to repeat this. The claim was that there is nothing in the gospels contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? Protestants say that calling your priests father is contrary to the gospels.

Protestants say a lot of things I would ordinarily attribute to drug-taking, were I not acutely aware of the power of brainwashing.
That may be true about taking drugs, but do the Gospels say "Call no man father"? I don't see what taking drugs has to do with this command we find in the Gospels?
Go become Protestant, then you'll have some actual moral authority on this Wink

What's with all those idiot Christians who believe in God?
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« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2011, 07:58:58 PM »



And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.


He could probably kick your butt at a fish fry.

Doubt it. I would surprised it there were any foods I couldn't prepare better. We have the advantage of Food Science on our side and about 2000 more years and access to better appliances and variety of ingredients.

Now, as to making that last bit of Chilean Sea Bass* go a little further, hands down.

In fact, we could probably take it off the disappearing species list or whatever it is called.

*I do not actually eat this creature nor should you.
When you and Jesus throw down and go all Iron Chef in heaven, I hope to be there.

And Chilean Sea Bass is overrated.
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« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2011, 08:06:22 PM »

Iron Chef or Iron Chef America? I'd kill to see Jason, Jesus and Alton Brown in a studio together. Kill. Dead.
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« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2011, 08:45:03 PM »

Iron Chef or Iron Chef America? I'd kill to see Jason, Jesus and Alton Brown in a studio together. Kill. Dead.
YES. I don't know what the secret ingredient will be, but I'm sure that Jesus knows it already. Wink
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« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2011, 08:53:32 PM »

Iron Chef or Iron Chef America? I'd kill to see Jason, Jesus and Alton Brown in a studio together. Kill. Dead.
YES. I don't know what the secret ingredient will be, but I'm sure that Jesus knows it already. Wink

That is called cheating . . . We are talking the Jesus on earth Jesus, not the one before or after.
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« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2011, 10:54:33 PM »


And I also know how make the perfect poached egg, something Jesus of Nazareth I doubt knew.


High Macha Of Rashpur: It is written, "He who makes the best egg salad shall rule over heaven and earth." Don't ask me why egg salad - I've got enough aggravation.

It seems obvious to me that knowing the world's best egg salad recipe, makes any rendition of a poached egg inconsequential.  When I was looking for this particular quote, it struck me how many of the other quotes were stylistically similar to those of Asteriktos.
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« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2011, 12:57:06 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?
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« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2011, 01:00:25 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
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« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2011, 02:03:29 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
orthonorm, Please do try to keep this thread on topic. Thank you. (Yes, I am speaking as a moderator.)  -PtA
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« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2011, 02:28:23 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
I was not trying to be cryptic but only to suggest that it is not all that easy to determine what is Caesar's and what is not Caesar's. I suppose that you can argue either way about taxes or military service.
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« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2011, 03:28:43 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
I was not trying to be cryptic but only to suggest that it is not all that easy to determine what is Caesar's and what is not Caesar's. I suppose that you can argue either way about taxes or military service.

Stanley did you see my questions I asked above about the passage that is being discussed? I would like someone to answer them. It seems they are important. We discussed it in OC.net chat tonight and they seemed productive to discussion.

Where was Christ when this happened?
Why did he ask to SEE a coin, why not just ask who was on one?
What belongs to Caesar? (Most Christians crack me up with this one.)
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« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2011, 10:03:22 AM »

You are missing the point: what Caesar demands =/= what is Caesar's.
If Caesar demands taxes, is that (part of ) what is Caesar's?
If Caesar demands military service, is that (part of) what is Caesar's?
Does Caesar have the right to demand either one?

Answer my questions and you will never puzzle again about this "cryptic" passage.
I was not trying to be cryptic but only to suggest that it is not all that easy to determine what is Caesar's and what is not Caesar's. I suppose that you can argue either way about taxes or military service.

Stanley did you see my questions I asked above about the passage that is being discussed? I would like someone to answer them. It seems they are important. We discussed it in OC.net chat tonight and they seemed productive to discussion.

Where was Christ when this happened?
Why did he ask to SEE a coin, why not just ask who was on one?
What belongs to Caesar? (Most Christians crack me up with this one.)

In the Temple, in the city of Jerusalem, in the Roman province of Judaea.
Not sure. Your thoughts.
Ambiguous.

Mark 12:14-17 (KJV)
And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? [15] Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it . [16] And they brought it . And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. [17] And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Matthew 22:16-21 (KJV)
And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man : for thou regardest not the person of men. [17] Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? [18] But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? [19] Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. [20] And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? [21] They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
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« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2011, 01:21:46 AM »

What belongs to Caesar? 
Caesar thinks that you have to pay taxes, and in some countries at certain times, Caesar demands military service. Caesar has the power of the fist to enforce his demands.
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« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2011, 10:04:01 AM »

What belongs to Caesar? 
Caesar thinks that you have to pay taxes, and in some countries at certain times, Caesar demands military service. Caesar has the power of the fist to enforce his demands.

You are still falsely equating 'what Caesar thinks is his' and 'what is Caesar's'.
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« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2011, 12:39:19 PM »

What belongs to Caesar? 
Caesar thinks that you have to pay taxes, and in some countries at certain times, Caesar demands military service. Caesar has the power of the fist to enforce his demands.

You are still falsely equating 'what Caesar thinks is his' and 'what is Caesar's'.
No.
I did not equate anything to anything.
 I said this is what Caesar demands. He demands both taxes and military service. I said he has the power of the fist to enforce his demands.
You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.
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« Reply #120 on: September 18, 2011, 03:58:51 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.
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« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2011, 04:53:06 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.

Could you elaborate?
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« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2011, 04:56:47 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.
You are going to find a difference of opinion as to who is truly Christian.
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« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2011, 04:59:39 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.

Could you elaborate?

BTW, your question about seeing the coin: could one possible answer be: the irony that the "hypocrites" had Roman money in their pockets?
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« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2011, 05:59:02 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.

Could you elaborate?

BTW, your question about seeing the coin: could one possible answer be: the irony that the "hypocrites" had Roman money in their pockets?

Bingo. Finally someone willing to answer the basic questions before trying to extrapolate to the "big" questions.

Why are they hypocrites otherwise? A Pharisee or the like would avoid touching Roman money outside the Temple as much as possible much less within it.

It must be remembered it was just not Tiberius Caesar's image on the coin, but the fact he was in a divine lineage to Augustus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar...#The_coin

A Pharisee and the like touching such scandalous and idolatrous material would have had to be ritually purified.

By asking to SEE the coin and not just asking who is on it, Christ is showing them for the hypocrites that they are.

Now one could say the text is ambiguous and that the Pharisees and Herodians went to fetch a coin, but I think this is a stretch and goes to apologetics unfounded.

In any case, it is hard for us to imagine this scene the way a Hebrew would have at the time. That it occurs in all the synoptics is telling. As I said in chat, in the parlance of our times, upon hearing Christ ask to see such a coin from such people within the Temple and in their zeal to trap them and thus expose their hypocrisy the average Hebrew would have said:

NO HE DIDN'T!
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« Reply #125 on: September 18, 2011, 06:21:38 PM »

You are going to find a difference of opinion on the question as to what is Caesar's.

Only among those who are not truly Christian or at that time following the Law.
You are going to find a difference of opinion as to who is truly Christian.

Actually I ain't. Well people may disagree with my point, but they are wrong. This ain't "opinion time. It's basic Judeo-Christianity.

You have to look at the rhetoric of Christ throughout most of the synoptics especially within Mark. There is irony, oft in the form of the Socratic variety with a "true" cynical turn (please google what cynicism means before arguing).

He constantly answers questions with questions that leave the accusers in a lurch. If they answer what is in their hearts they will be found to hypocrites or put into the very same danger they would like put Christ.

Here they are trying to get Christ to speak again the tax.

People jump the gun and think Christ's answer is about paying taxes per se, but it ain't.

What does Christ ask them / tell them?

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

Now the implied question?

Not what is Caesar's per se,

but:

What is God's?

This is basic Judaism come Christianity 101.

How do you answer?

EVERYTHING.

Nothing belongs to you, not even your own life. All is God's. End of discussion. What is given to you is for you to steward to the glory of God to the degree you can.

Tithing, Temple Sacrifice, etc. are ways of acknowledging this basic tenet of Judeo-Christianity, which seems to pretty much go missing anymore.

Whether you pay the tax is it a matter of proper stewardship of what you were given by God to His glory. There is no easy answer here.

Sometimes taxes may serve the Glory of God, as well as military service, etc.

But this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with some division between worldly offerings and "obedience" to governments versus some spiritual offering to God.

That is gnosticism for real. The notion that what is God's ends with the dirty complications of commerce and government and the like. As long as we are good citizens and go to the Divine Liturgy, we are doing what Jesus suggested here.

No.

Everything is God's and all is given to us by God, even Caesar and his tax. How we handle and steward what we were given obviously can get very complicated.

But if a "Christian" or a "Jew" does not believe that everything is God's. Then they ain't no proper Christian nor Jew.

Even my backwoods Baptist, three-fingered preacher knew that much. I would think the Orthodox and Roman Catholics would know as much as well.

What we render to Caesar is what is God's in light of proper stewardship of what were given.

Caesar's life doesn't belong to him, much less that coin with his image and name on it.





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« Reply #126 on: September 19, 2011, 10:33:46 AM »

I'll just say this and no more. St. Paul paid the taxes that were due from Roman citizens. If Christ advocated not paying taxes, I doubt he'd have done it.

PP
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« Reply #127 on: September 19, 2011, 11:20:38 AM »

I'll just say this and no more. St. Paul paid the taxes that were due from Roman citizens. If Christ advocated not paying taxes, I doubt he'd have done it.

PP

You are avoiding the point above not to mention the fact your argument doesn't necessarily follow.

St. Paul was not Christ nor His pure and perfect human conduit.

But again, I would love a Christian to explain to me how in virtue of something other than proper stewardship of God's creation we ought to do anything regarding creation, paying taxes or otherwise.

However St. Paul struggled with that particular issue for himself and particular other persons in a specific place and time doesn't bare much for us outside the fact he must have struggled within the horizon of the proper Christian ethos as I have succinctly laid out, if he did so in a Christian manner.

In short.

You can lay all the questions about Rendering to Caesar aside.

/thread.
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« Reply #128 on: September 19, 2011, 11:37:06 AM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)
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« Reply #129 on: September 19, 2011, 11:46:13 AM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.

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« Reply #130 on: September 19, 2011, 11:48:11 AM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.
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« Reply #131 on: September 19, 2011, 11:57:13 AM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.

/thread.
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« Reply #132 on: September 19, 2011, 12:19:25 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.

/thread.

1- Your argument is too existential for my simple mind.
2- What use is it to have a thread if it is not going to go on too long after all original content has been expended?
3- The only proper stewardship for God's silver is to mix it with 28% nickel and make it into 100 Peso coins.  They are truly beautiful coins, and due to San Jacinto we don't have don't have to render anything to Santa Anna.
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« Reply #133 on: September 19, 2011, 12:33:36 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?
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« Reply #134 on: September 19, 2011, 01:11:05 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
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« Reply #135 on: September 19, 2011, 01:45:26 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
Have I told you before to not call me Pete?
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« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2011, 01:54:10 PM »

So why then, follow any law that is not specifically stated in scripture? So why obey traffic laws? Why buy anything? You're using God's money to buy God's stuff. Why did Mary and Joseph go back to be counted in the census? Did God not put Caesar in power? Does not God put all rulers in their place?

PP
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« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2011, 02:00:28 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
Have I told you before to not call me Pete?

No.

Have I asked you to refer to my posts as  +sic Jason dixit?

Or have I told you?

Have I told you, how and how not to address me? Or asked?

Please, link to where you told me not to call you Pete?

And of all the points made in my post, that is most striking to you?

IOW, it wasn't +sic Jason dixit.

Try again.

Isn't my username orthonorm? Weird. Why is Pete so terrible? I think Jason is sorta cool.

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« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2011, 02:01:46 PM »

Also, why did Paul tell Onesimus to return to his master? Do men, especially Christians, not belong to God and not other men?

PP
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« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2011, 02:06:07 PM »

So why then, follow any law that is not specifically stated in scripture? So why obey traffic laws? Why buy anything? You're using God's money to buy God's stuff. Why did Mary and Joseph go back to be counted in the census? Did God not put Caesar in power? Does not God put all rulers in their place?

PP

Who are you responding to? Cause this hits nowhere near my post. Again, you all are getting caught up in the minutia before getting one of the simple and rather important points of the exchange.
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« Reply #140 on: September 19, 2011, 02:07:02 PM »

Also, why did Paul tell Onesimus to return to his master? Do men, especially Christians, not belong to God and not other men?

PP

Again. If you can't argue fundamentals.

I don't think you are even reading what I wrote.
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« Reply #141 on: September 19, 2011, 02:15:05 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
Have I told you before to not call me Pete?

No.

Have I asked you to refer to my posts as  +sic Jason dixit?

Or have I told you?

Have I told you, how and how not to address me? Or asked?

Please, link to where you told me not to call you Pete?

And of all the points made in my post, that is most striking to you?

IOW, it wasn't +sic Jason dixit.

Try again.

Isn't my username orthonorm? Weird. Why is Pete so terrible? I think Jason is sorta cool.
Let me put it to you this way: I hate being called Pete. What you may think of the name is immaterial. I hate the name and I ask you now not to call me that. If you are not willing to grant me the respect of honoring my request that you not call me a name I hate to be called, then I don't see why your requests for respect are deserving of any honor.
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« Reply #142 on: September 19, 2011, 02:15:55 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?

Wow. And I was thinking your last few posts were arrogant. How can you ever expect to learn anything when you interact with people in this way?

The point of a discussion is not to try to prove that you are smarter than your interlocutor(s). You seem to be frustrated that others are not understanding your points, or trying to sidestep them, etc. Perhaps if you altered your style of argumentation in such a way that you came off friendlier and less conceited you would obtain better results. I say this as someone who often struggles with my own tendencies toward belligerence and conceit, but who has found that when I can manage a bit of modesty, I learn a great deal more.
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« Reply #143 on: September 19, 2011, 02:18:15 PM »

Also, why did Paul tell Onesimus to return to his master? Do men, especially Christians, not belong to God and not other men?

PP

Again. If you can't argue fundamentals.

I don't think you are even reading what I wrote.
Im not asking to argue, Im asking because Im interested in opinion. Im not attacking anyone's position. if I didnt make that clear, sry.

PP
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« Reply #144 on: September 19, 2011, 02:20:50 PM »

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not entirely sure I know what you are arguing.  How does the world being God's have any bearing on taxation?  I can name one thing in this world that if not God's and that would be human free will.  God can advise, instruct, and influence us, but by His own decree we have a free choice.  Everything we do day in and day out if of our free will.  It is best for us if we make our will match God's, but every sin committed is evidence of our will not being in sync with God's.  God's kingdom is not of this world, Christ said that.  God does not require that we pay taxes.  God does not require that we obey speed limits.  Those things are of our own creation.  God cares as much for taxes as the police care about what I do in a D&D game.  In the public world we follow the rules of the game.  When the game conflicts with God's rules, then is the time to pick where we stand.  But up til that point, the money, or the value that we place in it, is not something God is concerned with.  Give it to Caesar.  Or better yet, get rid of it, turn off the game, and follow Christ.
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« Reply #145 on: September 19, 2011, 02:28:31 PM »

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not entirely sure I know what you are arguing.  How does the world being God's have any bearing on taxation?  I can name one thing in this world that if not God's and that would be human free will.  God can advise, instruct, and influence us, but by His own decree we have a free choice.  Everything we do day in and day out if of our free will.  It is best for us if we make our will match God's, but every sin committed is evidence of our will not being in sync with God's.  God's kingdom is not of this world, Christ said that.  God does not require that we pay taxes.  God does not require that we obey speed limits.  Those things are of our own creation.  God cares as much for taxes as the police care about what I do in a D&D game.  In the public world we follow the rules of the game.  When the game conflicts with God's rules, then is the time to pick where we stand.  But up til that point, the money, or the value that we place in it, is not something God is concerned with.  Give it to Caesar.  Or better yet, get rid of it, turn off the game, and follow Christ.
Firstly, glad to see someone else plays D&D Smiley

Ok, I am asking because I want to know is there a line in the sand concerning this or do we only obey God and never the law. There are instances in scripture of people obeying the law (Onesimus' sending back by Paul) and in the book of Romans about obeying authorities. I just wanted to know what opinions on this was. To me, taxation is irrelevant because no matter how many folks "say" not to, or are saying that Christ says not to, or whatever, they all do or they would not be posting here, they'd be in prison so to me its a moot point.

Please note that im not accusing anyone of "saying" anything on here but this has gone 'round the internet for some time about all kinds of folks not paying taxes because of this-or-that reason in scripture.
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« Reply #146 on: September 19, 2011, 02:36:46 PM »

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not entirely sure I know what you are arguing.  How does the world being God's have any bearing on taxation?  I can name one thing in this world that if not God's and that would be human free will.  God can advise, instruct, and influence us, but by His own decree we have a free choice.  Everything we do day in and day out if of our free will.  It is best for us if we make our will match God's, but every sin committed is evidence of our will not being in sync with God's.  God's kingdom is not of this world, Christ said that.  God does not require that we pay taxes.  God does not require that we obey speed limits.  Those things are of our own creation.  God cares as much for taxes as the police care about what I do in a D&D game.  In the public world we follow the rules of the game.  When the game conflicts with God's rules, then is the time to pick where we stand.  But up til that point, the money, or the value that we place in it, is not something God is concerned with.  Give it to Caesar.  Or better yet, get rid of it, turn off the game, and follow Christ.
Firstly, glad to see someone else plays D&D Smiley

Ok, I am asking because I want to know is there a line in the sand concerning this or do we only obey God and never the law. There are instances in scripture of people obeying the law (Onesimus' sending back by Paul) and in the book of Romans about obeying authorities. I just wanted to know what opinions on this was. To me, taxation is irrelevant because no matter how many folks "say" not to, or are saying that Christ says not to, or whatever, they all do or they would not be posting here, they'd be in prison so to me its a moot point.

Please note that im not accusing anyone of "saying" anything on here but this has gone 'round the internet for some time about all kinds of folks not paying taxes because of this-or-that reason in scripture.

1- Rogues for the win!

2- I should have been more clear.  I was aiming for orthonorm.  I get what you are saying just fine.  If you are part of worldly society (which most of us are) play by the rules of society.  Caesar's is whatever he has the firepower to take.  I see as much morality in society's rules as I do in the rules for D&D.  I obey society's rules not because my conscience tells me to.  I obey them for two reasons and two reasons alone.  1: When society's laws and God's laws are the same then I will be doing my utmost to obey these laws regardless of all other factors.  2: When society's laws and God's laws are different, so long as society's laws don't conflict with God's laws I will obey them because society can muster more firepower than I can.  But you better believe that if the roles were reversed and I had more guns and more men holding them, I wouldn't give a pickled turd for taxes, stop signs, or copyrights.
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« Reply #147 on: September 19, 2011, 02:37:02 PM »

Taxes are of this world.  The Pharisees were trying to show that Christ was just a rabble rouser, a worldly, political sort.  Our Lord dismissed these feeble claims.  Caesar's face is on the money.  Let him play with it.  If you sell all you own to give to the poor and follow Christ, you won't have a lot of money to be paying taxes with, so it's kind of  a moot point.  (Then again, in this sinful world perhaps the poor would end up paying capital gains taxes on the money you gave them, and you theoretically could claim these gifts as an exemption on your income tax supposing you were making money off of following Christ...but I digress.)

This world is God's. (My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.)

Go back and read my argument. If something in creation doesn't belong to God, let me know. And in this fallen world it is still our call to steward creation to the glory of God to greatest degree we can.

Again to be pithy:

Caesar's life ain't his own, much less a coin with his name and face on it.



All things are God's creation but of His creation are many idols made.

Again irrelevant to my argument. In fact, my points addresses this oblique comment.

As I said before. You all can stop.
Why? Is this some +sic Jason dixit?

Pete,

See the other posts above that one, especially the one that is rather long and gives a detailed summation of my argument. If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

Hint: reading previous posts helps understand the post you are currently reading.

I know you just think +sic PersonsNameITendNotToLikeToSeePosting dixit is the height of highbrow wit; it ain't.

Let's not get into a contest to see who can be the biggest smart . . .  I will win.

Do you really want to come down to my level? Doubt it. Doubt you can come up to it either. Kinda a paradox, ain't it?
Have I told you before to not call me Pete?

No.

Have I asked you to refer to my posts as  +sic Jason dixit?

Or have I told you?

Have I told you, how and how not to address me? Or asked?

Please, link to where you told me not to call you Pete?

And of all the points made in my post, that is most striking to you?

IOW, it wasn't +sic Jason dixit.

Try again.

Isn't my username orthonorm? Weird. Why is Pete so terrible? I think Jason is sorta cool.



Now to my +sic Jason dixit (Would you rather I say Also sprach orthonorm?): You appear to be trying to have the last word on this discussion by shutting down all other debate. For instance:

Actually I ain't. Well people may disagree with my point, but they are wrong. This ain't "opinion time. It's basic Judeo-Christianity.

...

...

In short.

You can lay all the questions about Rendering to Caesar aside.

/thread.

...

As I said before. You all can stop.

/thread.

...

If you are able (which I doubt) to suggest something is wrong with it, please chime in. Otherwise, stay still.

...

I hope this is just an act and that you don't really mean to be this domineering. But if you really are serious, be advised that this is a discussion forum, not a soap box. This is a place for all to engage in discussion and the free exchange of ideas and opinions. Attempts to dominate discussions and shut them down with statements of "I, orthonorm, have spoken! There is therefore no need for further discussion," are indeed most unwelcome and only make you look like an egotistical windbag.
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« Reply #148 on: September 19, 2011, 02:48:24 PM »

My reason I think English speakers get all this so confused is that "age" is translated for some reason as "world" nearly every time in the NT. And then extends further into Christian discourse. Odd.
"World" in the NT is also a translation of "Kosmas" which for our purposes means "[fallen] order of things".

When Christ says "I am not of this world" he is not saying "I am not of this Aeon" but "I am not of this Kosmos".
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« Reply #149 on: September 19, 2011, 04:35:51 PM »

I am calling for a recess of 24 hours to allow passions to cool down. See you tomorrow, Second Chance
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« Reply #150 on: September 20, 2011, 02:08:58 PM »

Thread is now unlocked. Please refrain from personal attacks on each other as this detracts from others' enjoyment of the discussion. Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #151 on: September 20, 2011, 04:29:56 PM »

Matthew 17:25
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?” 26“From others,” Peter answered.
“Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him.

Christ told us that we are exempt. 

Caesar was collecting from foreigners whom were the Jews.

So saying "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's...." does not apply.   
The Jews in Israel were foreigners to Caesar.

So the question remains without justification.  When the Orthodox pays taxes and it funds wars and misc other things that are not Christian is it "sinful", seeing that we are exempt.
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« Reply #152 on: September 20, 2011, 04:45:05 PM »

Matthew 17:25
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?” 26“From others,” Peter answered.
“Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him.
Read on, yesh. You're only giving us half the story. It continues on.

"However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel; that that and give it to them for Me and for yourself."  ~ Matthew 17:27

Even though He deemed Himself and His disciples exempt from paying the temple tax, He went ahead and had Peter pay it anyway and [miraculously] provided him the means to do so.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 04:45:31 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #153 on: September 20, 2011, 04:56:26 PM »

Matthew 17:25
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?” 26“From others,” Peter answered.
“Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him.

Christ told us that we are exempt. 

Caesar was collecting from foreigners whom were the Jews.

So saying "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's...." does not apply.   
The Jews in Israel were foreigners to Caesar.

So the question remains without justification.  When the Orthodox pays taxes and it funds wars and misc other things that are not Christian is it "sinful", seeing that we are exempt.


You are missing the point horribly.  For one, here is the full story:

 24And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

 25He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

 26Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

 27Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.




Then there is also the fact that our Lord and Saviour was pointing out an historical fact.  Romans and the inhabitants of Italy were exempt from taxes.
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« Reply #154 on: September 20, 2011, 04:59:50 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 05:01:19 PM by IsmiLiora » Logged

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« Reply #155 on: September 20, 2011, 05:22:40 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.

Yeah, I need to as well.  Peter was the first mouse to the cheese.
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« Reply #156 on: September 20, 2011, 05:27:16 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.

Yeah, I need to as well.  Peter was the first mouse to the cheese.
You snooze, you lose! Wink
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« Reply #157 on: September 20, 2011, 05:31:03 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.

There is precedent for closing off a thread when the subject is exhausted. One of the criteria for determining that point is the repeated unresponsiveness of the OP, when the OP basically uses the thread as a soap box rather than a discussion forum. When I get the sense that many of the posters are starting to get frustrated by the actions and/or inactions of the OP, I will consider applying that rule.  Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #158 on: September 20, 2011, 05:38:56 PM »

The problem here is a gross omission of context. Sometimes I wonder why posters bother putting their time into rephrasing their [usually] very good answers when yeshuaisiam refuses to acknowledge or even cede small points.

ETA: Because I need to re-read my posts before submitting them.

There is precedent for closing off a thread when the subject is exhausted. One of the criteria for determining that point is the repeated unresponsiveness of the OP, when the OP basically uses the thread as a soap box rather than a discussion forum. When I get the sense that many of the posters are starting to get frustrated by the actions and/or inactions of the OP, I will consider applying that rule.  Thanks, Second Chance

For what it's worth. I didn't even notice that yeshuaisiam was the OP.  I started checking here again because I was interested in continuing the debate with orthonorm.  Just got side tracked!
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