Author Topic: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?  (Read 5556 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« on: September 10, 2011, 07:44:48 PM »
Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2011, 09:02:45 PM »
Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2011, 09:27:04 PM »
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.

Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2011, 09:31:47 PM »
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
+1
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2011, 10:08:44 PM »
Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Volnutt

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2011, 10:34:18 PM »
Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
You don't think Romans ever killed babies? Read up on Roman war practices some time.

Also,
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.

Offline biro

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2011, 10:41:04 PM »
The Hyde Amendment has kept U.S. government money from paying for abortions for over 30 years.

Offline Opus118

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2011, 10:53:14 PM »
Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks

As far as I know, the Hyde amendment is still in force in regard to abortions. Despite wars and executions, I still consider taxes as a source for good in society.  Others certainly differ.

Offline Schultz

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2011, 11:04:32 PM »
Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?

Infanticide common in Roman empire
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2011, 11:05:11 PM »
Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
I've heard a thing or two about how the ancient Romans practiced infanticide. How is that any different?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline biro

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2011, 11:06:26 PM »
If you don't pay your taxes, you may go to jail. No matter how principled your beliefs, I'm not sure jail is a place you want to go. There are other ways to fight abortion besides not paying your taxes.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2011, 11:29:39 PM »
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2011, 11:41:54 PM »
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.

Offline bogdan

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2011, 11:43:03 PM »
My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)

For some people, a given issue does weigh on their consciences that much, and so not paying taxes might be the right move for them to make. But again, such choices have consequences and those individuals must be willing to face them.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 11:48:30 PM by bogdan »

Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2011, 11:53:50 PM »
Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
I would assume he did know it was used for that. Omniscience and all that.

Why? Do you believe you have a moral obligation to dodge taxes? On what do you base this?

Offline biro

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2011, 11:57:57 PM »
Almost every country in the world has some kind of government, which collects taxes. There are a few countries which don't seem to have a stable government- and these seem to be too dangerous to even live in. So even if you went somewhere else, the same thing would probably happen. Nobody likes paying taxes, but it's hard to get around it. Even when you go buy candy, they get the sales tax. You stand to lose a lot more by going to jail than you would by paying taxes.


Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2011, 12:01:58 AM »
Taxes are strictly meant for the lower classes. The rich have earned the right to not be burdened by such silly things. How does this relate to the OP? Stop being an intellectual slave to the man and think about it!
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Offline KBN1

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2011, 12:03:30 AM »
It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.

Offline biro

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2011, 12:04:41 AM »
We have saints who were members of the Roman military. It doesn't seem that the early church objected to that.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2011, 12:06:02 AM »
It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.

Offline KBN1

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2011, 12:13:19 AM »
It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.

I'm not sure I follow.  Please elaborate.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2011, 12:21:27 AM »
It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.

I'm not sure I follow.  Please elaborate.
Well, someone in such a country might just say, "Well, owning Bibles is illegal, I guess I should just throw mine out." Or, "Well, the law says I have to convert to Islam. I better get on that."

Offline KBN1

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2011, 12:49:44 AM »
It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.

I'm not sure I follow.  Please elaborate.
Well, someone in such a country might just say, "Well, owning Bibles is illegal, I guess I should just throw mine out." Or, "Well, the law says I have to convert to Islam. I better get on that."

Not at all analogous. 

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2011, 04:37:59 PM »
My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)

For some people, a given issue does weigh on their consciences that much, and so not paying taxes might be the right move for them to make. But again, such choices have consequences and those individuals must be willing to face them.

This is very interesting.  By doing this one would be suffering for God's sake.
(consider international abortions not protected by the amendment)

It's interesting how we can not serve both God and money too.   If we make money, then we end up being forced to pay for many of these things.  Without money, one must learn to either barter or live with the creation.  (Earthships?)
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2011, 04:41:50 PM »
It is a non-issue since taxes are compulsory.  You are not actively giving the money to something you agree with or don't agree with.  It is being taken from you.  Be thou not vexed.
In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, one could say the same about countries which outlaw Bibles.

I'm not sure I follow.  Please elaborate.
Well, someone in such a country might just say, "Well, owning Bibles is illegal, I guess I should just throw mine out." Or, "Well, the law says I have to convert to Islam. I better get on that."

Not at all analogous. 

I think both of you have points.  They are indeed taken, however, does it make it right?  I can see the comparison with the bible - if you are forced to give up your bible but you keep it because of your religious beliefs - you are supporting a cause of conscious.

If you do not pay taxes because they are being used (any country) for immoral purposes, then you are supporting a cause of conscious.

Both can get you in trouble.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2011, 04:49:40 PM »
If we make money, then we end up being forced to pay for many of these things.  Without money, one must learn to either barter or live with the creation.  (Earthships?)


Never again.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 04:50:03 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2011, 04:51:24 PM »
My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  ;) )
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2011, 04:52:17 PM »
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 04:53:05 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2011, 05:29:59 PM »
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline vamrat

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2011, 05:44:03 PM »
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.

Yeah Claudius was pretty much the first time a nerd came to power.  I would give my left pinkey to have a copy of his history of the Punics.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2011, 06:23:09 PM »
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.
I see.

Offline biro

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2011, 06:26:02 PM »
My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  ;) )


Hahahaaa!

Offline ialmisry

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2011, 06:37:17 PM »
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.
I see.
So did most of Rome, except Claudius.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2011, 06:40:33 PM »
Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?
You don't think Romans ever killed babies? Read up on Roman war practices some time.
[/b]
Also,
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.

Taxes were paid to Herod's government, scripture tells us what he did to all of the male children following Our Saviour's nativity......

You probably read that my area has suffered this past week from a traumatic and widespread flood. The flooding ran the 300 mile course of the Susquehanna River. But for the decades of work undertaken by the Army Corps of Engineers in terms of flood wall and levee constructions, watershed management and dams, coupled with the emergency planning and management undertaken by state and local government agencies, the suffering in terms of injury and death and the economic costs of the such a flood would be unimaginable. Taxes paid for these public improvements and for the public servants who manage them.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 06:45:27 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2011, 06:58:40 PM »
That denarius Christ gave probably also contributed to torturing enemies of the state, maintaining Roman slavery, throwing Claudius' famously perverse parties, etc. etc.
I think you mean Caligula.  Claudius was rather tame (for one thing, he only liked women).
Oh, yeah. You're right. Though I'm sure even Claudius enjoined an orgy once in a while.
No, but his third wife did.

Yeah Claudius was pretty much the first time a nerd came to power.
the odd thing that is how he came to power: everyone thought he was too much a dope to seize power, and left him alone.  When he did rise to power, he did a rather fine job.

I would give my left pinkey to have a copy of his history of the Punics.
His Etruscan history and dictionary would be invaluable.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2011, 01:03:34 AM »
My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  ;) )

I'm hoping to get a job soon.  Do they actually check if you're REALLY a Jew when you put the red "J" on the return?  I was hoping to use this trick to not pay my taxes.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2011, 01:12:29 AM »
I'm hoping to get a job soon.  Do they actually check if you're REALLY a Jew when you put the red "J" on the return?  I was hoping to use this trick to not pay my taxes.

They control everything. If you get a job, your information will automatically be forwarded to all the relevant people. The whole "J" thing is just to make the process easier and run more efficiently, but trust me, it won't take more than a few seconds for them to pull up your file.  Although Tallitot exaggerates a bit, since his status as a GWC (gay white convert) is not much higher than your status as a SWAG (straight white american goy).
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Offline stanley123

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2011, 02:30:22 AM »
If you don't pay your taxes, you may go to jail. No matter how principled your beliefs, I'm not sure jail is a place you want to go. There are other ways to fight abortion besides not paying your taxes.
But what about all that money that goes for chemical, biological and atomic weapons? Surely these are immoral as their use would result in largescale civilian casualties. According to the RCC teaching (I don't know if the Orthodox agree with this):CCC 2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."
 

Offline Tallitot

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2011, 10:24:27 AM »
My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  ;) )

I'm hoping to get a job soon.  Do they actually check if you're REALLY a Jew when you put the red "J" on the return?  I was hoping to use this trick to not pay my taxes.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2011, 01:45:57 PM »
nvm
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 01:46:34 PM by Volnutt »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2011, 03:13:14 PM »
My way of dealing with it is to pay my taxes while supporting candiadtes whose policies I agree with and work toward reforms.








(of course everyone knows I don't really pay taxes; I just return my 1040 with a big "J" written in red magic marker and the lackeys at the Zionist controlled IRS take care of it  ;) )

I'm hoping to get a job soon.  Do they actually check if you're REALLY a Jew when you put the red "J" on the return?  I was hoping to use this trick to not pay my taxes.

It's not wise to lie to the Jewish cabal controlling the panglobal judaeomasonicpapist conspiracy.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2011, 03:16:25 PM »
If you don't pay your taxes, you may go to jail. No matter how principled your beliefs, I'm not sure jail is a place you want to go. There are other ways to fight abortion besides not paying your taxes.
But what about all that money that goes for chemical, biological and atomic weapons? Surely these are immoral as their use would result in largescale civilian casualties. According to the RCC teaching (I don't know if the Orthodox agree with this):CCC 2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."
 


The individual citizen, from whom the agents of Satan in charge of government in republican democracies extract taxes, has naught to fear morally from taxation. Voting may be another matter. This is why it is morally safer to live in an Orthodox autocracy. Even if the emperor is a heretic, no one votes for him and his crimes are on his own head and cannot easily be passed off to a faceless, soulless bureaucracy indulgent in callous officiousness and extremely bad poetry.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2011, 03:49:42 PM »
Firstly, The Emperor Tiberius had the weird stuff in Capri and he was the emperor during the entireity of Jesus' earthly ministry. Claudius was stuttering and stammering his way through the imperial palace at the time and Caligula was still breaking in his caliga with his father at the time....he was only about 10 yrs old during Jesus' crucifixion.

Second, let me ask you a question. We are told to give to the poor. If you gave a poor man $5 and he used it on a prostitute, did you sin? Of course not. You are not responsible for what a beneficiary of your obedience to the Lord does with that money. If so, alot of churches are sinning alot because I'm sure some of the poor folks receiving any money from churches are using it for drugs or other bad things.

We are told to obey the law until the Law and God part ways. I am not responsible for what my government does with my money. I AM responsible for obeying Christ when he says to render unto Caesar.

PP


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Quote
No, but his third wife did.
yeah, with her brother Caligula...blech.....
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 03:53:26 PM by primuspilus »
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2011, 03:52:12 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Since many Orthodox Christians believe directly that "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" validates paying certain taxes such as the income tax - when an individual knows that their taxation pays for things such as abortions & wars, does this conflict with Orthodoxy?

I'm stuck in this vexing question a lot.
Thanks
You seem to specializing in vexing yourself.

What do you think Caesar was using Christ's denarius for?  Feeding the poor (outside of the bread and circus to keep himself on top of the empire)?

Whose picture is on the dollar bill?  $5? $10? $20? $50? $100?....
Not Caesar's picture.  Masons.

Do you think Christ would have paid that denarius if he knew it was going to be used to kill babies?

Are you suggesting that the Incarnate God did not know something in particular?

The statement Christ made with the denarius regarding taxes is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in Romans 13.

Apostle Paul writes, " Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." The Apostle is not trying to insinuate that all governments are perfect and rosy, rather that flaws and all (as overwhelming as they can be) God establishes all and further respects free-will.

Part of our Church life is to learn to understand that all of life is a gift of God, even those aspects we find less than fortunate.  

"This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

We should not as Christians feel guilty when we pay our taxes which contribute necessarily to war, systematic poverty, corruption, greed, ecological devastation, and all sorts of human suffering.  The world was this way in Christ's time, and Christ has sent the Church into the world.

We must learn to adjust our lives to the Will of God, and to accept it.  Just as it is natural that humans die, even in the Christian sense of "sleeping", still we have to learn with God how to properly deal with our grief.  Well its the same thing with our gripe.  The world is a mess, so what? God expects us to carry on and do His Will and His Works in cooperation through out the world.

Now this does get complicated in situations, for example like the US Civil Rights movement of the Doctor King era.  Civil disobedience, freedom marches, sit-ins and demonstrations, all of these were non-violent and Christian in spirit and yet were also seeming to contradict authority of the law/government and even the will of many of the common people.  I would say that these were appropriate, but only if we as Christians take these kinds of matters to our God in prayer and to our priests to help us truly stay balanced and harmonized.  God has called many martyrs and witnesses to stand up against the System, however these were CALLED by God for such a purpose, we can not succeed if we call ourselves.

For example, both Peter and Paul both were miraculously released from prison.  When Peter left the second gate by the hand of the Angel, he knew very well he was "breaking the Law" and obviously disobeying the authority of the government, and yet having been aided by an Angel in Divine Providence, surely this was the Will of God.  But it is a specific instance, not the ideal or the norm.  Paul's example is similar but more obvious to the point.  When Paul was to be released he challenged the warden to make sure it was all legitimate, and not merely to sneak them out the back door. In both instances, it seems clear that the Apostles did not necessarily act entirely on their own volition, but were moved by God.

As a man thoroughly grounded in the ideals and movements of social justice and equality, I have often been conflicted sometimes by these Scriptures and the Church history sometimes in regards to connections with the governments.  But we must remember the Lord lets His Son shine upon wicked and just alike, and lets the wheat and the chaff grow together alongside each other.  It is not for us to judge God, but to let God do the Judging.  We can still condemn the wrongs of the world, but we must do such in the Grace of God.  I have learned from my walk in Orthodox to trust God in all things, and it can be hard.  Really, this is an elaborated version of "why do bad things happen to good people?"

There answer is the same.  Seek prayer and of the course the age-old Orthodox adage, "Ask your priest."
My priest once said, if it truly violates your conscience to pay your taxes, then don't pay them. But you also must be willing to face the consequences, such as going to prison. (And also weigh it for greater evils; for instance, if you have a family to feed, it would be a greater sin to abandon them for the sake of a personal outlook on an issue you really have no control over.)
As you can see in God's Grace our fathers often have the best answers :)

I would say civil and human rights movements, so long as they are grounded within the Church (such as those of the recent Roman Catholic social justice movements) they fit in.  Catholics speak out against abortion, but they still pay their taxes.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 03:56:05 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: When you pay taxes, is it "sinful" Orthodoxy?
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2011, 04:12:26 PM »
Firstly, The Emperor Tiberius had the weird stuff in Capri and he was the emperor during the entireity of Jesus' earthly ministry. Claudius was stuttering and stammering his way through the imperial palace at the time and Caligula was still breaking in his caliga with his father at the time....he was only about 10 yrs old during Jesus' crucifixion.

Second, let me ask you a question. We are told to give to the poor. If you gave a poor man $5 and he used it on a prostitute, did you sin? Of course not. You are not responsible for what a beneficiary of your obedience to the Lord does with that money. If so, alot of churches are sinning alot because I'm sure some of the poor folks receiving any money from churches are using it for drugs or other bad things.

We are told to obey the law until the Law and God part ways. I am not responsible for what my government does with my money. I AM responsible for obeying Christ when he says to render unto Caesar.

PP


P.S.

Quote
No, but his third wife did.
yeah, with her brother Caligula...blech.....
Thanks for correcting my rusty chronology.