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Author Topic: Have you ever encountered the "Tridentine Creed"??  (Read 3657 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 09, 2011, 12:59:19 AM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2011, 01:31:04 AM »

Seems a bit fishy to me. I don't think that it could have been around since Trent since the second to last paragraph references the First Vatican Council. I am curious though, is there anything within this Creed that an Eastern Catholic would consider outright wrong?
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2011, 01:44:44 AM »

According to Wikipedia it was revised at First Vatican. What's described on the page sounds a lot like is in the link you gave.

There is precedent for revising creeds, so it isn't that far out.
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2011, 03:15:10 AM »

According to Wikipedia it was revised at First Vatican. What's described on the page sounds a lot like is in the link you gave.

There is precedent for revising creeds, so it isn't that far out.
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2011, 03:54:11 AM »

The "Try Dentyne" creed? What kind of zany marketing partnerships will Catholics come up with next!?



Kidding aside (hey, it's 4am, cut me some slack), as for the text, some of the wording sounds a bit strong to me, but then I'm a crazy liberal. I didn't really see much to fret over (do eastern Catholics accept the validity of indulgences?), though perhaps I missed something. One question, when it speaks of "images" does it mean icons, or does that also include statues?
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2011, 06:24:23 AM »

I like cinnamon Dentyne.
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 08:20:28 AM »

I don't like it. It seems like McCarthyism where they are trying to flush out people who aren't theologically pure in their eyes.   Unfortunately, Byzantine Catholics are in a tough spot.  They are put on display whenever there is a need to show the Orthodox how great reunification will be, but then are told they can't practice their faith in the way that was passed down to them because it will "scandalize" the Latin rite Catholics   
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 09:54:40 AM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 10:07:00 AM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 10:10:51 AM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 10:32:39 AM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 10:35:31 AM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

Yes.  A loyalty oath.

When you hear it recited in a liturgy...as I noted earlier...then you can be concerned.

It is not even used as an oath of loyalty any longer, for good reason.

M.
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Fabio Leite
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2011, 10:41:38 AM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

Yes.  A loyalty oath.

When you hear it recited in a liturgy...as I noted earlier...then you can be concerned.

It is not even used as an oath of loyalty any longer, for good reason.

M.

Quote
This formula was made binding, in a double bull of Nov. 13, 1564 ('Injunctum noblis'), and Dec. 9, 1564 ('In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra,' etc.), upon the whole ecclesia docens, i.e., upon all Roman Catholic priests and public teachers in Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.vi.iv.html

You're a catechist right?
Ah, and just noticed the name of the second bull "In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra" should be an "ex cathedra" teaching, right?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 10:43:10 AM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2011, 11:24:01 AM »

According to Wikipedia it was revised at First Vatican. What's described on the page sounds a lot like is in the link you gave.

There is precedent for revising creeds, so it isn't that far out.

It's just the definitions of Trent (Vatican I added later) put into credal form. I don't think the concept of putting a statement of faith like that into a personal "I believe" is entirely heretical, especially after hearing my priest mention the interesting form of the creed recited at Bishop Mathias's consecration and then listening to it on AFR.
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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2011, 11:36:06 AM »

According to Wikipedia it was revised at First Vatican. What's described on the page sounds a lot like is in the link you gave.

There is precedent for revising creeds, so it isn't that far out.

It's just the definitions of Trent (Vatican I added later) put into credal form. I don't think the concept of putting a statement of faith like that into a personal "I believe" is entirely heretical, especially after hearing my priest mention the interesting form of the creed recited at Bishop Mathias's consecration and then listening to it on AFR.

It's not heretical to formulate new creeds, as long as they are not meant to substitute the Nicene-Constantinopolitan one. They are synthetic formulations of faith. Changing the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, though, is uncanonical to say the least.
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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2011, 01:04:41 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

Yes.  A loyalty oath.

When you hear it recited in a liturgy...as I noted earlier...then you can be concerned.

It is not even used as an oath of loyalty any longer, for good reason.

M.

Quote
This formula was made binding, in a double bull of Nov. 13, 1564 ('Injunctum noblis'), and Dec. 9, 1564 ('In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra,' etc.), upon the whole ecclesia docens, i.e., upon all Roman Catholic priests and public teachers in Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.vi.iv.html

You're a catechist right?
Ah, and just noticed the name of the second bull "In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra" should be an "ex cathedra" teaching, right?
but it has no "+Sic Maria dixit": that's apparently the little known but all dispositive enacting clause of Pastor Aeternus.

Their supreme pontiff says Trent was an ecumenical council. That would make it binding on anyone who buys that he speaks infallibly on faith and morals about such things.
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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2011, 02:02:33 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?
I am not quite sure what is wrong with this creed from a Catholic point of view. It seems entirely orthodox to me.
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 04:54:51 PM »

I agree with ElijahMaria, it's not used in any mass or liturgy. I believe everything in the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed ( but not necessarily the fileoque- still researching that one.).  I'm a bit troubled by indulgences and not sure about purgatory. And original sin as defined by the Augustinian model is not the view of the Byzantine Catholics.   So I don't think I could say this Tridentine Creed with a clear conscience.

After spending some time with rigid traditional Catholics I learned to read between the lines.  The ones i knew really believe you have to be a formal member  of the Roman rite church to avoid burning in hell.  For confession, if you forgot to confess one thing it meant you still aren't forgiven, you have to be scrupulous and be sure to confess every detail.  I wasn't accepted once I questioned why the salvation of the poor souls in purgatory was dependent on me praying for them - it seemed unfair that someone who didn't get prayers would suffer longer than someone who was more popular.  It really seems that a group requiring recitation of a creed not recited by the greater church is trying to be more catholic than the pope. 

TheistGiril, I'm curious why they are so disturbed by the Byzantine Catholics and are using this creed to make some point?
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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 09:12:53 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?
I am not quite sure what is wrong with this creed from a Catholic point of view. It seems entirely orthodox to me.
I thought the same thing when I read it.
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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2011, 10:38:49 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?
I am not quite sure what is wrong with this creed from a Catholic point of view. It seems entirely orthodox to me.
I thought the same thing when I read it.
since it predates all the sui juris unions except perhaps the Italo-Albanians (not entirely clear) it would seem that one would have to look at the particular terms of the particular "union" as to what they had to give up what they had known as the Orthodox Tradition of the Catholic Church in order to submit to the Vatican's magiterium, as there are specific things they said they would not give up, which conflict with the general terms of submission in the oath.

They say that is was required of converts:were any signers of the "Unions" required to say it?  Otherwise, they can argue where this oath and what it stands for conflicts with what they had held as the Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church, the terms of the "Union" are determinative.
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Ego N. firma fide credo et profiteor omnia et singula, quae continentur in Symbolo, quo Sancta Romana ecclesia utitur, videlicet: Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis. Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

Apostolicas et ecclesiasticas traditiones reliquasque eiusdem ecclesiae observationes et consitutiones firmissime admitto et amplector.

Item sacram Scripturam iuxta sensum eum, quem tenuit et tenet sancta mater Ecclesia, cuius et iudicare de vero sensu et interpretatione sacrarum Scripturarum, admitto, nec eam umquam nisi iuxta unanimem consensum Patrum accipiam et interpretabor.

Profiteor quoque septem esse vere et proprie Sacramenta novae legis, a Iesu Christo Domino nostro instituta, atque ad salutem humani generis, licet non omnia singulis, necessaria: scilicet Baptismum, Confirmationem, Eucharistiam, Poenitentiam, Extremam Unctionem, Ordinem et Matrimonium, illaque gratiam conferre, et ex his Baptismum, Confirmationem et Ordinem sine sacrilegio reiterari non posse.

Receptos quoque et approbatos ecclesiae catholicae ritus in supradictorum omnium Sacramentorum solemni administratione recipio et admitto.

Omnia et singula, quae de peccato originali et de iustificatione in sacrosancta Tridentina Synodo definita et declarata fuerunt, amplector et recipio.

Profiteor pariter, in Missa oferri Deo verum, proprium et propitiatorium sacrificium pro vivis et defunctis, atque in sanctissimo Eucharistiae Sacramento esse vere, realiter et substantialiter Corpus et Sanguinem, una cum anima et divinitate Domini nostri Iesu Christi, fierique conversionem totius substantiae panis in Corpus at totius substantiae vini in Sanguinem, quam conversionem Ecclesia catholica transsubstantiationem appellat. Fateor etiam sub altera tantum specie totum atque integrum Christum verumque Sacramentum sumi.

Constanter teneo, purgatorium esse, animasque ibi detentas fidelium suffragiis iuvari. Similiter et Sanctos, una cum Christo regnantes, venerandos atque invocandos esse, eosque orationes Deo pro nobis offerre, atque eorum reliquias esse venerandas.

Firmissime assero, imagines Christi ac Deiparae semper Virginis, necnon aliorum Sanctorum habendas et retiendas esse, atque eis debitum honorem et venerationem impertiendum.

Indulgentiarum etiam potestatem a Christo in Ecclesia relictam fuisse, illarumque usu christiano populo maxime salutarem esse affirmo.

Sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam romanam omnium ecclesiarum matrem et magistram agnosco, Romanoque Pontifici, beati Petri, Apostolorum principis, successori, ac Iesu Christi Vicario, veram obedientiam spondeo ac iuro.

Cetera item omnia a sacris canonibus et oecumenicis Conciliis, ac praecipue a sacrosancta Tridentina Synodo, et ab oecumenico Concilio Vaticano tradita, definita et declarata; simulaque contraria omnia, atque haereses quascumque ab Ecclesia damnatas et reiectas et anathematizatas ego pariter damno, reicio, et anathematizo.

Veram catholicam fidem, extra quam nemo salvus esse potest, quam in praesenti sponte profiteor et veraciter teneo, eamdem integram, et inviolatam usque ad extremum vitae spiritum, constantissime, Deo adiuvante, retinere et confiteri, atque a meis subditis, vel illis, quorum cura ad me in munere meo spectabit, teneri, doceri et praedicari, quantum in me erit, curaturum, ego idem N. spondeo, voveo ac iuro. Sic me Deus adiuvet et haec sancta Dei Evangelia. Amen.
Quote
I, N, with a firm faith believe and profess each and everything which is contained in the Creed which the Holy Roman Church makes use of. That is: I believe in one God, The Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father. By Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And became incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary: and was made man. He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, and Who spoke through the prophets. And one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I expect the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I most steadfastly admit and embrace Apostolical and ecclesiastical traditions, and all other observances and constitutions of the Church.

I also admit the Holy Scripture according to that sense which our holy mother the Church has held, and does hold, to whom it belongs to judge of the true sense and interpretations of the Scriptures. Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

I also profess that there are truly and properly Seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind, though not all for every one; that is: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of these, Baptism, Confirmation, and Orders cannot be reiterated without sacrilege. I also receive and admit the received and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of the aforesaid sacraments. I embrace and receive all and every one of the things which have been defined and declared in the holy Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification. I profess, likewise, that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially, the Body and Blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood, which conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation. I also confess that under either kind alone Christ is received whole and entire, and a true sacrament.

I constantly hold that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful. Likewise, that the saints, reigning together with Christ, are to be honored and invoked, and that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I most firmly assert that the images of Christ, of the Mother of God, ever virgin, and also of other Saints, ought to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration is to be given them.

I also affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people.

I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the mother and mistress of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ.

I likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent. I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the Church has condemned, rejected, and anathematized.

This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, inviolate and with firm constancy until the last breath of life, I do so profess and swear to maintain with the help of God. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels.
http://www.mrtrid.com/profession.html

For a published text predating Vatican I:A  text-book of popery: comprising a brief history of the Council of Trent and a complete view of Roman-Catholic theology By John Mockett Cramp
http://books.google.com/books?id=uPAQAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA464&dq=firma+fide+credo+et+profiteor+omnia+et+singula,+quae+continentur+in+Symbolo,+quo+Sancta+Romana&hl=en#v=onepage&q=firma%20fide%20credo%20et%20profiteor%20omnia%20et%20singula%2C%20quae%20continentur%20in%20Symbolo%2C%20quo%20Sancta%20Romana&f=false
and the English Chambers's encyclopædia: a dictionary of universal knowledge, Volume 8
http://books.google.com/books?id=1WkMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA299&dq=with+a+firm+faith+believe+and+profess+each+and+everything+which+is+contained+in+the+Creed+which+the+Holy+Roman+Church+makes+use+of.+That+is:+I+believe+in+one+God,&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

While there are obvious heterodox departures from the Catholic Tradition as the Fathers delievered them, such as the filioque and purgatory. For example, let us take Brest:
Quote
Since there is a quarrel between the Romans and Greeks about the procession of the Holy Spirit, which greatly impede unity really for no other reason than that we do not wish to understand one another—we ask that we should not be compelled to any other creed but that we should remain with that which was handed down to us in the Holy Scriptures, in the Gospel, and in the writings of the holy Greek Doctors, that is, that the Holy Spirit proceeds, not from two sources and not by a double procession, but from one origin, from the Father through the Son.
http://ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TREATBR.HTM
since this oath violates this by having to say "from the Father and the Son" instead of "through the Son," I can see how those who signed on to Brest might refuse this creed.

A large part would be the problem with confessing adherence to the Council of Trent.  Since Trent condemned utraquism (the insistence of communion under both, not one "species) this
Quote
That the Mysteries of the Most Holy Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ should be retained entirely as we have been accustomed until now, under the species of bread and wine; that this should remain among us eternally the same and unchangeable.
might cause some problems. As perhaps would this
Quote
That we should not be compelled to take part in processions on the day of Corpus Christi—that we should not have to make such processions with our Mysteries inasmuch as our use of the Mysteries is different.
as Trent described Corpus Christi as "A Triumph over heresy" another clause
Quote
That the marriages of priests remain intact, except for bigamists.
would cause problems, as Trent banned anew married clergy, indeed basically restricting ordination to the never married.

So you have a start of the objections.
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« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2011, 11:51:11 PM »

As to more detail, skipping the obvious filioque problem, going on:
Quote
I most steadfastly admit and embrace Apostolical and ecclesiastical traditions, and all other observances and constitutions of the Church.

I also admit the Holy Scripture according to that sense which our holy mother the Church has held, and does hold, to whom it belongs to judge of the true sense and interpretations of the Scriptures. Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.
In the case of those submitting to the Vatican, they would have said this previously.  In some instances, e.g. married priests, such tradition was the tradition of the whole Catholic Church until changes in the West introduced differences. Trent reaffirmed those differences.  The union treaties specifically called for exemption from adopting them.

Quote
I also profess that there are truly and properly Seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind, though not all for every one; that is: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of these, Baptism, Confirmation, and Orders cannot be reiterated without sacrilege. I also receive and admit the received and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of the aforesaid sacraments. I embrace and receive all and every one of the things which have been defined and declared in the holy Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification. I profess, likewise, that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially, the Body and Blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood, which conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation. I also confess that under either kind alone Christ is received whole and entire, and a true sacrament.
this would contradict, as what Trent defined and declared contradicted the Catholic Tradition upheld by the Orthodox from whom the signers of Brest came, the terms of Brest:
Quote
That the divine worship and all prayers and services of Orthros, Vespers, and the night services shall remain intact (without any change at all) for us according to the ancient custom of the Eastern Church, namely: the Holy Liturgies of which there are three, that of Saint Basil, that of Saint Chrysostom, and that of Epiphanius which is served during the Great Lent with Presanctified Gifts, and all other ceremonies and services of our Church, as we have had them until now, for in Rome these same services are kept within the obedience of the Supreme Pontiff, and that these services should be in our own language.

That the Mysteries of the Most Holy Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ should be retained entirely as we have been accustomed until now, under the species of bread and wine; that this should remain among us eternally the same and unchangeable.

That the Mystery of Holy Baptism and its form should remain among us unchanged as we have served it until now, without any addition.

That we should not be compelled to take part in processions on the day of Corpus Christi—that we should not have to make such processions with our Mysteries inasmuch as our use of the Mysteries is different.

That the marriages of priests remain intact, except for bigamists.

That our Bishops should not send to Rome for the sacrae (permission to consecrate), but, if the King's Grace names someone to a bishopric, that according to the old custom the Archbishop—Metropolitain should have the duty and the right to ordain him. The Metropolitain himself, before entering upon the office of metropolitain, should send the sacrae to the Pope. Then, after he has received the sacrae from Rome, let the bishops ordain him, at least two of them, according to their custom. If a bishop is elected Metropolitain, let him not send for the sacrae, because he already has the episcopal cheirotonia; he may take an oath of obedience to the Supreme Pontiff in the presence of the Archbishop of Gniezno (who on that occasion will not be functioning as Archbishop, but as Primate of Poland).

That we should not be forbidden to visit the sick with the Most Holy Mysteries, publicly, with lights and vestments, according to our rubrics.
this would include chrismation after baptism, communion of the laity of both the Body and Blood, married clergy, local control of the episcopate rather than central control from Rome, etc. all of which conflict with the administration of sacraments according to Trent.  But here again, the practices that Trent upholds are recent innovations in the West.  The practices the signers wanted to preserve even after submission to the Vatican were the universal Orthodox Tradition of the Catholic Church of the earliest centuries, if not the whole first millenium.

How this
Quote
I constantly hold that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful.
is harmonized with this article of Brest
Quote
We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.
I cannot determine.  If they were required to subscribe to Florence, it would be clearer. As for
Quote
I also affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people.
since indulgences were a later Western development, only found in the East after Trent, they are not part of the universal Orthodox Tradition of the Catholic Church, and but Brest is silent on them.  So it would seem to be a question of whether they had to affirmatively adopt them, or if their silence in the terms of Brest precludes them from rejecting what Trent taught on them.
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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2011, 01:57:45 AM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?
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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2011, 02:14:32 AM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?
Yes...I believe even the EO and OO would agree that Ecumenical Councils are the most authoritative.
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« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2011, 05:58:41 AM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?
Possibly..... For me it just seems odd to have a subset requiring a stricter creed recitation than what the greater church requires. It seems to lend itself to a caste system, if you will, within the Catholic church.

The original post was about this Tridentine Creed being used against Greek Catholics to show they weren't kosher enough.   These threads seem to turn into a Mensa Meeting where things are discussed from every angle and everyone jumps on what resonates personally.  For me it seemed to be a purity test used against Greek Catholics as described by the original poster.

I'm not a fan of a small group deciding whose Catholic enough.

I'm sure the persecution of the Greek Catholics when they came to America was justified by the same mindset - they weren't Catholic enough because they had married priests, used leavened bread in their liturgies , etc.
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« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2011, 09:00:46 AM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?
Yes...I believe even the EO and OO would agree that Ecumenical Councils are the most authoritative.

And, Wyatt, I'm not denying everything in this creed is official Roman Catholic doctrine.  If there was something about having to believe in limbo then there would be something to debate. I understand really conservative or traditional Catholics are fed up with all the craziness That has happened since the 60's, such as communion rails being torn out,  the tabernacle being moved so you  have no idea where to find it,  and so on.  I just feel that with the majority of Roman Catholics not believing in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, why should a small group attack the Greek Catholics as not being Catholic enough?

Maybe the Orthodox have it right, they kept things simpler and stuck with the basics of the ancient faith. They don't  have to get their people to submit to believing in Purgatory and indulgences and can focus more on the essentials.
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« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2011, 09:51:53 AM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2011, 09:57:22 AM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?
Possibly..... For me it just seems odd to have a subset requiring a stricter creed recitation than what the greater church requires. It seems to lend itself to a caste system, if you will, within the Catholic church.

The original post was about this Tridentine Creed being used against Greek Catholics to show they weren't kosher enough.   These threads seem to turn into a Mensa Meeting where things are discussed from every angle and everyone jumps on what resonates personally.  For me it seemed to be a purity test used against Greek Catholics as described by the original poster.

I'm not a fan of a small group deciding whose Catholic enough.

I'm sure the persecution of the Greek Catholics when they came to America was justified by the same mindset - they weren't Catholic enough because they had married priests, used leavened bread in their liturgies , etc.

That did not and does not make correct the practice of asserting the Latin Church as the only bearer of the truth.  And it did not take long to figure that out once the eastern Catholic faithful began to worship outside of their natal countries.  In fact it did not take long for the pressure to "correct" that misconception to begin, and it continues apace as we speak.

Again I protest the idea that simply because things go wrong in the Church that the entire Church must be wrong.  Use that yard stick in Orthodoxy and what do you get?....Vagante bishops...

 
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« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2011, 10:49:51 AM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
the facts of the "unions" and the formation of the WRO belie your assertions here: the WRO are required to change their orandi to conform with the Orthodox credendi that is held universally by the Catholic Church (although the orandi is not), whereas the Vatican's "sui juris" rites originally (and now, again) were not changed-which would alert the faithful that they had entered into another ecclesial community.  It is for that reason that practically every Orthodox parish I have been in has service books published by the Vatican.  "Byzantine Worshop" and others do follow the lex credendi, lex orandi rule, which is why they are unsuitable for Orthodox worship:they have been changed to conform with Vatican teaching, including that of Trent.
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« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2011, 11:02:56 AM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
the facts of the "unions" and the formation of the WRO belie your assertions here: the WRO are required to change their orandi to conform with the Orthodox credendi that is held universally by the Catholic Church (although the orandi is not), whereas the Vatican's "sui juris" rites originally (and now, again) were not changed-which would alert the faithful that they had entered into another ecclesial community.  It is for that reason that practically every Orthodox parish I have been in has service books published by the Vatican.  "Byzantine Worshop" and others do follow the lex credendi, lex orandi rule, which is why they are unsuitable for Orthodox worship:they have been changed to conform with Vatican teaching, including that of Trent.

I believe this strays from the original question asked of me. 

I do believe you have the same difficulty that Father Ambrose does in distinguishing between doctrine, ecclesial and theological anthropology, piety, and liturgy.  So whatever you say here is marked by that deficiency.

So there may be some truth in what you have said above but it is misleading in the main.
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« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2011, 05:13:53 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.
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« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2011, 06:00:49 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
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« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2011, 06:10:17 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
So you're saying that I was correct in the first place.

Why bother asking where I got the idea then?
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« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2011, 06:23:48 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
So you're saying that I was correct in the first place.

Why bother asking where I got the idea then?

No.  You are not correct in your comparison at all. 

There are many credal statements over the centuries.  Do you pay attention to those from the east that are not in the divine liturgy?  If not, does that make you like the Protestants and sola scriptura?
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« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2011, 08:01:34 PM »

TheistGirl, I'm curious why they are so disturbed by the Byzantine Catholics and are using this creed to make some point?

Hi everyone, sorry, I didn't mean to do a thread "hit and run"! Just started a new job this week and it's taken up a lot more time than I thought it would (and they don't like us to surf the Net during business hours - imagine!  Grin ).

Anyway, yes, on the forum I was referring to, there does seem to be this constant effort to prove that Byzantine Catholics are not "real" Catholics, by posting things like this Tridentine Creed and then demanding to know why B.C.'s won't agree to it.

I must say, though, that I enjoy the irony:  at this particular RC forum, EC's are sometimes accused of not being (Roman) Catholic enough, while here at OC.net, we're sometimes accused of being too (Roman) Catholic!   Roll Eyes

Makes me think we must be doing something right!  Cool  
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« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2011, 08:06:47 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
So you're saying that I was correct in the first place.

Why bother asking where I got the idea then?

No.  You are not correct in your comparison at all. 

There are many credal statements over the centuries.  Do you pay attention to those from the east that are not in the divine liturgy?  If not, does that make you like the Protestants and sola scriptura?
Any creed declared by a council is certainly something to pay attention to. A liturgical service is not the method by which we judge a creed.

I absolutely maintain that it is exactly like Protestants and Sola Scriptura to say "If it isn't in the service it isn't important."
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« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2011, 08:44:52 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
So you're saying that I was correct in the first place.

Why bother asking where I got the idea then?

No.  You are not correct in your comparison at all. 

There are many credal statements over the centuries.  Do you pay attention to those from the east that are not in the divine liturgy?  If not, does that make you like the Protestants and sola scriptura?
Can you name one required of converts and theologians-like the Vatican required subscription to the Tridentine-that we are free to ignore?  I know we have some elaboration on the Nicene Creed in the office of reception of converts, and in the consecration of bishops, but we are not free to ignore them, as we accept the one to be among us and the other to be above us by such Creeds.

And we are not free to ignore the ones we do not use verbatim in the DL.  We don't usually recite the entire definition of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, but we read the exclamations on the Triumph of Orthodoxy.  We do not recite the Twelve Chapters, upon which the sentence against Nestorius was based at Ephesus, but we call her Theotokos in conformity, and anyone who cannot subscribe to the Twelve Chapters does not subscribe to the Orthodox Faith and thus cannot commune in the Catholic Church.

The Confession of Dositheos, limited in authority as it is, cannot be ignored, nor can the Orthodox Confession of the Catholic Church of the East of Met. St. Peter Movila, because they are lex credendi what the lex orandi is teaching.  They bear the authority of the Councils (Jerusalem in the former, Iasi (and Jerusalem) in the latter) which produced/approved them.  Hence why they are of a lesser authority than any definition produced by an Ecumenical Council.

Which brings up to the problem of your stand on this creed of the church of your baptism, EM.  It was produced by a council that your magisterium pronounces as ecumenical/general.  It was important enough three centuries later that it was updated by the next council your magisterium pronounced as ecumenical/general-Vatican I.  Given the importance of the council which produced this creed in stamping its name-Tridentine-on the very mass which was being imposed on everyone at the time in communion with the Vatican
Quote
Finally came uniformity in the old Roman Rite and the abolition of nearly all the medieval variants. The Council of Trent considered the question and formed a commission to prepare a uniform Missal. Eventually the Missal was published by Pius V by the Bull "Quo primum" (still printed in it) of 14 July 1570. That is really the last stage of the history of the Roman Mass. It is Pius V's Missal that is used throughout the Latin Church, except in a few cases where he allowed a modified use that had a prescription of at least two centuries. This exception saved the variants used by some religious orders and a few local rites as well as the Milanese and Mozarabic liturgies. Clement VIII (1604), Urban VIII (1634), and Leo XIII (1884) revised the book slightly in the rubrics and the texts of Scripture (see LITURGICAL BOOKS). Pius X has revised the chant (1908.) But these revisions leave it still the Missal of Pius V. Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09790b.htm
it would seem that the creed came as a matched set with the missal of Trent.

Which leaves the question of the OP about the Byzantines.  They all post-date Trent, and exemption from the Liturgy of Trent was one of the main, if not the main, demands of those who submitted to the Vatican in the "unions."  Such exemption would be immediately in conflict, as we have seen, to the Tridentine Creed.  Agreeing to the exemption, did your supreme pontiff absolve them of subscription to the Tridentine Creed as well?  In which case your Latins should take it up with your supreme pontiff, and stop pestering your Byzantines.  But if not, then the Byzantines didn't look at the fine print before they signed.
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« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2011, 09:14:44 PM »

But if not, then the Byzantines didn't look at the fine print before they signed.

That's an interesting statement.  What would you say to the Byzantines who were baptized into the Byzantine Rite, and never had the option of "signing" anything, but just continue to follow the teachings of their parents and grandparents? 

(We had one today - a baptism that is! Welcome to the world, Baby Emilie!  Grin )
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« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2011, 09:26:53 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
So you're saying that I was correct in the first place.

Why bother asking where I got the idea then?

No.  You are not correct in your comparison at all. 

There are many credal statements over the centuries.  Do you pay attention to those from the east that are not in the divine liturgy?  If not, does that make you like the Protestants and sola scriptura?
Any creed declared by a council is certainly something to pay attention to. A liturgical service is not the method by which we judge a creed.

I absolutely maintain that it is exactly like Protestants and Sola Scriptura to say "If it isn't in the service it isn't important."

 laugh  Careful.

I did not say that it was not important.

I said that I could safely ignore it.  That is a quite different statement. 

That text was never used in liturgy but was used as a loyalty oath during the time of the re-formation and periods of counter-reformation.  Since then it has fallen into disuse. 

That is all that I indicated, and because it is no longer used in ANY capacity then it is of historical interest but not at all vital to my salvation: not my salvation as an eastern Catholic, nor is it necessary to the salvation of Roman rite Catholics.

M.
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« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2011, 09:55:22 PM »

That text was never used in liturgy but was used as a loyalty oath during the time of the re-formation and periods of counter-reformation.  Since then it has fallen into disuse.  

That is all that I indicated, and because it is no longer used in ANY capacity then it is of historical interest but not at all vital to my salvation: not my salvation as an eastern Catholic, nor is it necessary to the salvation of Roman rite Catholics.

M.

Actually, it is apparently being used in the capacity of ardent traditionalist Roman Catholics trying to trap and/or discredit Eastern Rite Catholics on Internet fora.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2011, 10:01:10 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
Is there anything in this Creed that you specifically disagreed with?
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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2011, 10:11:06 PM »

Is there anything in this Creed that you specifically disagreed with?

Hi Wyatt - I know you addressed this to elijahmaria but since I'm the OP I hope you won't mind if I respond also.  Smiley

My objection to this Creed is less the content than the belligerent attitude.  I agree with others who said it sounds more like a loyalty oath.

I also object to RC's who are using it as a "test" to see if EC's are really C.  Wink
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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2011, 10:12:55 PM »

But if not, then the Byzantines didn't look at the fine print before they signed.

That's an interesting statement.  What would you say to the Byzantines who were baptized into the Byzantine Rite, and never had the option of "signing" anything, but just continue to follow the teachings of their parents and grandparents? 

(We had one today - a baptism that is! Welcome to the world, Baby Emilie!  Grin )
Many years!

It doesn't make a difference, as the "union agreements" that I have seen all speak of "in perpetuity." IOW, they (or actually, you) all are "grandfathered" in by their parents and grandparents.  So the Ruthenians and Ukrainians were fully within their rights when the Vatican banned their married clergy, for instance, to withdraw their signatures as it were from the "union agreement."  That they returned to the bosom of the Catholic Church of their forefathers and were received into Orthodoxy is icing on that cake: they could have signed onto the Union of Utrecht.
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« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2011, 10:17:53 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
So you're saying that I was correct in the first place.

Why bother asking where I got the idea then?

No.  You are not correct in your comparison at all. 

There are many credal statements over the centuries.  Do you pay attention to those from the east that are not in the divine liturgy?  If not, does that make you like the Protestants and sola scriptura?
Any creed declared by a council is certainly something to pay attention to. A liturgical service is not the method by which we judge a creed.

I absolutely maintain that it is exactly like Protestants and Sola Scriptura to say "If it isn't in the service it isn't important."

 laugh  Careful.

I did not say that it was not important.

I said that I could safely ignore it.  That is a quite different statement. 

That text was never used in liturgy but was used as a loyalty oath during the time of the re-formation and periods of counter-reformation.  Since then it has fallen into disuse. 

That is all that I indicated, and because it is no longer used in ANY capacity then it is of historical interest but not at all vital to my salvation: not my salvation as an eastern Catholic, nor is it necessary to the salvation of Roman rite Catholics.

M.
I must admit to an academic interest in semiotics, so I enjoy seeing how far symantics can be stretched.

I was not quoting you, rather I was making a summation of your position. No, you did not use the word "unimportant", however if something can be "safely ignore[d]" (which you do say), then it stands to reason that it is unimportant. Something that is important is something that we must direct a certain level of attention to.

You seem willing to admit that it was of historical importance, and thereby get out of the claim that you believe it is unimportant, but that is something completely different. Your position is that it is not important in the here and now in spite of the fact that it was updated at the second most recent Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church.

On top of all that there is nothing in the creed that is not established Catholic doctrine. I have to ask the same question as Wyatt, what particular issue in the creed do you disagree with? I disagree with a fair amount, but I'm not Catholic. Wink
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« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2011, 10:19:53 PM »

Is there anything in this Creed that you specifically disagreed with?

Hi Wyatt - I know you addressed this to elijahmaria but since I'm the OP I hope you won't mind if I respond also.  Smiley

My objection to this Creed is less the content than the belligerent attitude.  I agree with others who said it sounds more like a loyalty oath.

I also object to RC's who are using it as a "test" to see if EC's are really C.  Wink

But can't any creed be used in the same way? Isn't that why we state the various creeds in our various liturgies? To affirm before God that we do in fact believe these things? Is a person not a liar if they recite the Nicene Creed in the Divine Liturgy without holding to its truth?
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« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2011, 10:39:06 PM »

Is there anything in this Creed that you specifically disagreed with?

Hi Wyatt - I know you addressed this to elijahmaria but since I'm the OP I hope you won't mind if I respond also.  Smiley

My objection to this Creed is less the content than the belligerent attitude.  I agree with others who said it sounds more like a loyalty oath.

I also object to RC's who are using it as a "test" to see if EC's are really C.  Wink
That makes sense. The only part of that creed that I didn't particularly care for was the part at the beginning that referred to the Church as the "Holy Roman Church." I mean, I get what it's saying by that since the headquarters of our Church is in Rome, but the Catholic Church as a whole is certainly not just Roman. That part seems to be kind of a slap in the face to the Eastern Catholic Churches. The rest of it though seemed doctrinally orthodox.
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« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2011, 11:08:43 PM »

That makes sense. The only part of that creed that I didn't particularly care for was the part at the beginning that referred to the Church as the "Holy Roman Church." I mean, I get what it's saying by that since the headquarters of our Church is in Rome, but the Catholic Church as a whole is certainly not just Roman. That part seems to be kind of a slap in the face to the Eastern Catholic Churches. The rest of it though seemed doctrinally orthodox.

The word "Roman" does seem to push a lot of people's buttons.

Maybe it's time for the Pope to move the Vatican somewhere else, like Sheboygan.  Grin
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« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2011, 11:19:48 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
So you're saying that I was correct in the first place.

Why bother asking where I got the idea then?

No.  You are not correct in your comparison at all. 

There are many credal statements over the centuries.  Do you pay attention to those from the east that are not in the divine liturgy?  If not, does that make you like the Protestants and sola scriptura?
Any creed declared by a council is certainly something to pay attention to. A liturgical service is not the method by which we judge a creed.

I absolutely maintain that it is exactly like Protestants and Sola Scriptura to say "If it isn't in the service it isn't important."

 laugh  Careful.

I did not say that it was not important.

I said that I could safely ignore it.  That is a quite different statement. 

That text was never used in liturgy but was used as a loyalty oath during the time of the re-formation and periods of counter-reformation.  Since then it has fallen into disuse.
Oh, it lasted a bit longer than that:The book of the Roman-Catholic Church: in a series of letters addressed to Robert Southey. By Charles Butler, Robert Southey (1825)
Quote
The Creed of Pius IV.
This celebrated symbol of catholic faith was published by his holiness in 1564, in the form of a bull, addressed to all the faithful in Christ. It was immediately received throughout the universal church; and, since that time, has ever been considered, in every part of the world, as an accurate and explicit summary of the roman-catholic faith. Non-catholics, on their admission into the catholic church, publicly repeat and testify their assent to it, without restriction or qualification
http://books.google.com/books?id=YTg_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=Butler+Roman+Catholic+Church+Pius+IV+celebrated&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

as was mentioned, it was updated in 1887:why bother if it had "fallen into disuse."  "An advanced catechism of Catholic faith and practice: based upon the third plenary council catechism, for use in the higher grades of catholic schools" 1901, states:
Quote
CREEDS OF THE CHURCH (C).

Besides the Apostles' Creed, there are three other creeds in use by the Church:

1. Nicene Creed (really the creed of Nice and Constantinople) was composed at the Council of Nice, 325, and was enlarged at the Council of Constantinople. The Nicene Creed is recited at mass immediately after the Gospel, on all Sundays, and on the feasts of our Lord, the Blessed Virgin, the Apostles, doctors of the Church, etc. At the words, '''And was made man,'' the celebrant and those present at mass genuflect out of reverence for our Lord's condescension in coming to earth for our sakes.

2. Athanasian Creed. This name is given to the confession of faith, which is recited in the Sunday office of the breviary. It is commonly attributed to St. Athanasius.

3. The Creed of Pope Pius IV. This is a profession of faith, consisting of the Nicene Creed with a summary of the articles of faith defined by the Council of Trent, and of the definitions of the Vatican Council. It has to be repeated by a convert when he is received into the Church.
http://books.google.com/books?id=JioPAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA237&dq=An+advanced+catechism+of+Catholic+faith+and+practice+PIUS+IV&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
On January 6, 1870 all the assembled had to recite it, with an added clause that would be the Vatican I addition of obedience to its pope, in the opening session of Vatican I.  It would seem that didn't "fall into disuse" until Vatican II.

It would seem, like the Tridentine mass, it is making a come back.

That is all that I indicated, and because it is no longer used in ANY capacity

evidently, it is. And, as Fabio indicated and DOCUMENTED, it is "ex cathedra."

then it is of historical interest but not at all vital to my salvation: not my salvation as an eastern Catholic, nor is it necessary to the salvation of Roman rite Catholics.
does that go for the rest of Trent?
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« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2011, 11:57:21 AM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
So you're saying that I was correct in the first place.

Why bother asking where I got the idea then?

No.  You are not correct in your comparison at all. 

There are many credal statements over the centuries.  Do you pay attention to those from the east that are not in the divine liturgy?  If not, does that make you like the Protestants and sola scriptura?
Any creed declared by a council is certainly something to pay attention to. A liturgical service is not the method by which we judge a creed.

I absolutely maintain that it is exactly like Protestants and Sola Scriptura to say "If it isn't in the service it isn't important."

 laugh  Careful.

I did not say that it was not important.

I said that I could safely ignore it.  That is a quite different statement. 

That text was never used in liturgy but was used as a loyalty oath during the time of the re-formation and periods of counter-reformation.  Since then it has fallen into disuse. 

That is all that I indicated, and because it is no longer used in ANY capacity then it is of historical interest but not at all vital to my salvation: not my salvation as an eastern Catholic, nor is it necessary to the salvation of Roman rite Catholics.

M.
I must admit to an academic interest in semiotics, so I enjoy seeing how far symantics can be stretched.

I was not quoting you, rather I was making a summation of your position. No, you did not use the word "unimportant", however if something can be "safely ignore[d]" (which you do say), then it stands to reason that it is unimportant. Something that is important is something that we must direct a certain level of attention to.

You seem willing to admit that it was of historical importance, and thereby get out of the claim that you believe it is unimportant, but that is something completely different. Your position is that it is not important in the here and now in spite of the fact that it was updated at the second most recent Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church.

On top of all that there is nothing in the creed that is not established Catholic doctrine. I have to ask the same question as Wyatt, what particular issue in the creed do you disagree with? I disagree with a fair amount, but I'm not Catholic. Wink

Semiotics-Psychobabble-Presumption-Sin

It's a very short path.

The reason that I can safely ignore this credal statement is that there is a liturgical creed that I bind myself to each time I recite it...and the other teachings are available to me in a dozen or more DIFFERENT locations that are readily accessible and with which I am quite familiar.

Parse that... laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2011, 12:25:03 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

Yes.  A loyalty oath.

When you hear it recited in a liturgy...as I noted earlier...then you can be concerned.

It is not even used as an oath of loyalty any longer, for good reason.

M.

Quote
This formula was made binding, in a double bull of Nov. 13, 1564 ('Injunctum noblis'), and Dec. 9, 1564 ('In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra,' etc.), upon the whole ecclesia docens, i.e., upon all Roman Catholic priests and public teachers in Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.vi.iv.html

You're a catechist right?
Ah, and just noticed the name of the second bull "In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra" should be an "ex cathedra" teaching, right?

Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.
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Wyatt
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« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2011, 01:22:02 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

Yes.  A loyalty oath.

When you hear it recited in a liturgy...as I noted earlier...then you can be concerned.

It is not even used as an oath of loyalty any longer, for good reason.

M.

Quote
This formula was made binding, in a double bull of Nov. 13, 1564 ('Injunctum noblis'), and Dec. 9, 1564 ('In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra,' etc.), upon the whole ecclesia docens, i.e., upon all Roman Catholic priests and public teachers in Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.vi.iv.html

You're a catechist right?
Ah, and just noticed the name of the second bull "In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra" should be an "ex cathedra" teaching, right?

Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.
Or how contraception or practically anything pertaining to sexuality is a "pastoral issue" in Eastern Orthodoxy. How convenient.  Roll Eyes
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2011, 01:27:37 PM »

Or how contraception or practically anything pertaining to sexuality is a "pastoral issue" in Eastern Orthodoxy. How convenient.  Roll Eyes

I know, right? It's like they think situations vary or something! As though general guidelines are good, but that you might want to handle the actual application on a case by case basis. It's anarchy! This is why Catholics don't have pastors, but lawyers. Thus a parishioner will go to the lawyer-priest and announce their sin, and then the priest will quote the appropriate law and penalty. You do the crime, you do the time. Easy, peasy, juridical-easy.

 Tongue  Grin  Wink  Cheesy  Smiley  police  angel (Extra emoticons added so that you know I'm not trying to be mean. I promise.)
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elijahmaria
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WWW
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2011, 02:50:03 PM »

Or how contraception or practically anything pertaining to sexuality is a "pastoral issue" in Eastern Orthodoxy. How convenient.  Roll Eyes

I know, right? It's like they think situations vary or something! As though general guidelines are good, but that you might want to handle the actual application on a case by case basis. It's anarchy! This is why Catholics don't have pastors, but lawyers. Thus a parishioner will go to the lawyer-priest and announce their sin, and then the priest will quote the appropriate law and penalty. You do the crime, you do the time. Easy, peasy, juridical-easy.

 Tongue  Grin  Wink  Cheesy  Smiley  police  angel (Extra emoticons added so that you know I'm not trying to be mean. I promise.)

When you have Catholics who don't understand their Church and others from outside happy to play on that ignorance and "enhance" it by adding to it:  then it devolves into this sort of thing quite naturally.

The one thing that makes my BP go up is making fun of Confession/Penance.    I don't even get that worked up over Orthodox priests promising to stomp on consecrated "wafers" the next time they see some lying around on the street.  But play games with confession and I see "red"...

ah well...
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ialmisry
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« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2011, 04:32:36 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

Yes.  A loyalty oath.

When you hear it recited in a liturgy...as I noted earlier...then you can be concerned.

It is not even used as an oath of loyalty any longer, for good reason.

M.

Quote
This formula was made binding, in a double bull of Nov. 13, 1564 ('Injunctum noblis'), and Dec. 9, 1564 ('In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra,' etc.), upon the whole ecclesia docens, i.e., upon all Roman Catholic priests and public teachers in Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.vi.iv.html

You're a catechist right?
Ah, and just noticed the name of the second bull "In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra" should be an "ex cathedra" teaching, right?

Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.
but that's the very superiority that your supreme pontiff vaunts over us, waving Pastor Aeternus, and your magisterium chorttles on how we are "lacking" the means to put things in black and white.  Are you telling us that the former Patriarch of the West, "Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God" can't tell us how it is, or is it that he refuses to do so?

Your supreme pontiff REQUIRED this creed his of followers. Pretty black and white. The union agreements are the only things shading it gray.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 04:54:55 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2011, 04:34:48 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

Yes.  A loyalty oath.

When you hear it recited in a liturgy...as I noted earlier...then you can be concerned.

It is not even used as an oath of loyalty any longer, for good reason.

M.

Quote
This formula was made binding, in a double bull of Nov. 13, 1564 ('Injunctum noblis'), and Dec. 9, 1564 ('In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra,' etc.), upon the whole ecclesia docens, i.e., upon all Roman Catholic priests and public teachers in Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.vi.iv.html

You're a catechist right?
Ah, and just noticed the name of the second bull "In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra" should be an "ex cathedra" teaching, right?

Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.
Or how contraception or practically anything pertaining to sexuality is a "pastoral issue" in Eastern Orthodoxy. How convenient.  Roll Eyes
about as convenient as Humanae Vitae: or do you have access to the proof of it as an ex cathedra statement that EM's doesn't? Roll Eyes

Here we have a credal statement that one council which your "magisterium" counts as "ecumenical/general" produced (Trent), required by one of your supreme pontiffs in their bull of all of those in submission to him, which your assembled "magisterium" were required to recite (Vatican I), and yet we are told it doesn't matter.  What guidence then can we expect by a mere encycical which was opposed by the majority of the committee charged by your "magisterium" to study the issue, and opposed explicitely by your "magisterium" such as those who produced the Winnipeg statement, precluding any "universal acceptance" of the "ordinary magisterium?"

It is claimed this creed has fallen into disuse.  So had the mass Trent produced.  It is the right of anyone anywhere in submission to the Vatican to demand it: why is it denied that its creed also is being revived?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 04:51:49 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Wyatt
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« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2011, 04:53:34 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

Yes.  A loyalty oath.

When you hear it recited in a liturgy...as I noted earlier...then you can be concerned.

It is not even used as an oath of loyalty any longer, for good reason.

M.

Quote
This formula was made binding, in a double bull of Nov. 13, 1564 ('Injunctum noblis'), and Dec. 9, 1564 ('In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra,' etc.), upon the whole ecclesia docens, i.e., upon all Roman Catholic priests and public teachers in Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.vi.iv.html

You're a catechist right?
Ah, and just noticed the name of the second bull "In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra" should be an "ex cathedra" teaching, right?

Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.
Or how contraception or practically anything pertaining to sexuality is a "pastoral issue" in Eastern Orthodoxy. How convenient.  Roll Eyes
about as convenient as Humanae Vitae: or do you have access to the proof of it as an ex cathedra statement that EM's doesn't? Roll Eyes
We are not free to dissent from it. It is just upholding the traditional Christian view of contraception...that it is wrong. Even natural family planning is sinful if it is used in a contraceptive way (to prevent ever having children, which is being closed to life).

Here we have a credal statement that one council which your "magisterium" counts as "ecumenical/general" produced (Trent), required by one of your supreme pontiffs in their bull of all of those in submission to him, which your assembled "magisterium" were required to recite (Vatican I), and yet we are told it doesn't matter.  What guidence then can we expect by a mere encycical which was opposed by the majority of the committee charged by your "magisterium" to study the issue, and opposed explicitely by your "magisterium" such as those who produced the Winnipeg statement, precluding any "universal acceptance" of the "ordinary magisterium."
You were told by Elijahmaria that this creed does not matter. I disagree. I think it is a perfectly orthodox expression of Catholic doctrine.
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Kasatkin fan
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« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2011, 05:19:21 PM »

it's not used in any mass or liturgy.
I'm just curious, but what difference does that make? This sounds a bit like the Protestant thing of "it's not in the bible". Certainly Trent and Vat I are far more important when it comes to defining the beliefs of the Catholic Church than the liturgy is, aren't they?

What gives you that idea?  It is not a contest to see which elements are more important.  The Catholic Church teaches lex oradi lex credendi as well as Orthodoxy.
Where did I get what idea?

The idea that you're writing off this creed because it isn't in the Liturgy? Well I got that from the part where you and another said it isn't in the Liturgy so you feel you can ignore it.

There are many Creedal statements that I am perfectly able to ignore.  The one I cannot ignore is the one contained in the divine liturgy.
So you're saying that I was correct in the first place.

Why bother asking where I got the idea then?

No.  You are not correct in your comparison at all. 

There are many credal statements over the centuries.  Do you pay attention to those from the east that are not in the divine liturgy?  If not, does that make you like the Protestants and sola scriptura?
Any creed declared by a council is certainly something to pay attention to. A liturgical service is not the method by which we judge a creed.

I absolutely maintain that it is exactly like Protestants and Sola Scriptura to say "If it isn't in the service it isn't important."

 laugh  Careful.

I did not say that it was not important.

I said that I could safely ignore it.  That is a quite different statement. 

That text was never used in liturgy but was used as a loyalty oath during the time of the re-formation and periods of counter-reformation.  Since then it has fallen into disuse. 

That is all that I indicated, and because it is no longer used in ANY capacity then it is of historical interest but not at all vital to my salvation: not my salvation as an eastern Catholic, nor is it necessary to the salvation of Roman rite Catholics.

M.
I must admit to an academic interest in semiotics, so I enjoy seeing how far symantics can be stretched.

I was not quoting you, rather I was making a summation of your position. No, you did not use the word "unimportant", however if something can be "safely ignore[d]" (which you do say), then it stands to reason that it is unimportant. Something that is important is something that we must direct a certain level of attention to.

You seem willing to admit that it was of historical importance, and thereby get out of the claim that you believe it is unimportant, but that is something completely different. Your position is that it is not important in the here and now in spite of the fact that it was updated at the second most recent Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church.

On top of all that there is nothing in the creed that is not established Catholic doctrine. I have to ask the same question as Wyatt, what particular issue in the creed do you disagree with? I disagree with a fair amount, but I'm not Catholic. Wink

Semiotics-Psychobabble-Presumption-Sin

It's a very short path.

The reason that I can safely ignore this credal statement is that there is a liturgical creed that I bind myself to each time I recite it...and the other teachings are available to me in a dozen or more DIFFERENT locations that are readily accessible and with which I am quite familiar.

Parse that... laugh laugh laugh
That syllogism doesn't quite work. Presumption certainly can lead to sin but I don't see the connection between psychobabble and presumption, nor semiotics and psychobabble.

At any rate with every single response you are denying the original contention and then going on to confirm it. This time you seem to be saying that if it isn't right in front of you, you get to pick and choose.
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« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2011, 05:24:33 PM »

It would be nice if elijahmaria could answer what it is that she objects to in the creed. The direction this discussion has taken becomes moot if, like other Eastern Catholics, she only objects to the context of its use.
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« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2011, 05:26:48 PM »

Someone on another message board flung this at some Eastern Catholics in an attempt to find out once and for all if we were really Catholics:

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Tridentine_Creed.html

I'm a lifelong Catholic and was really taken aback by this - I've never heard of it, read it, heard it used in Church, etc. - yet apparently (at least according to Wiki) it's been around since the Council of Trent.

Info? Comments?

LOL...that's a cobbled together mess.

Tell the folks when they hear it recited during a liturgy then they can make their case.

Good grief!...Where do these people come from?

From Trent, an authoritative council (for Romans and all those under the Pope).

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Listen buddy...I got this ocean front propery in North Dakota that is just FABULOUS!!...price is right...easy access off a major interstate!!....

 Sad

Wonderful, I'll exchange it for this big Christ statue in my backyard, you've probably seen it in pics from Rio. Since my family has allowed visitations to the statue, it's worth a bit more than the property, for sure. But because I like you - my father would kill me if he heard this, I must be mad - I'll give the statue to you for the property and just 20,000 dollars cash. Perfect business for you...

Quote
The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

Yes.  A loyalty oath.

When you hear it recited in a liturgy...as I noted earlier...then you can be concerned.

It is not even used as an oath of loyalty any longer, for good reason.

M.

Quote
This formula was made binding, in a double bull of Nov. 13, 1564 ('Injunctum noblis'), and Dec. 9, 1564 ('In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra,' etc.), upon the whole ecclesia docens, i.e., upon all Roman Catholic priests and public teachers in Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.vi.iv.html

You're a catechist right?
Ah, and just noticed the name of the second bull "In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra" should be an "ex cathedra" teaching, right?

Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.
Or how contraception or practically anything pertaining to sexuality is a "pastoral issue" in Eastern Orthodoxy. How convenient.  Roll Eyes
about as convenient as Humanae Vitae: or do you have access to the proof of it as an ex cathedra statement that EM's doesn't? Roll Eyes
We are not free to dissent from it. It is just upholding the traditional Christian view of contraception...that it is wrong. Even natural family planning is sinful if it is used in a contraceptive way (to prevent ever having children, which is being closed to life).
So you claim.  But according to the claims advanced here, you have no "proof": it is denied that your supreme poniff spoke ex cathedra, your bishops with your supreme pontiff did not produce it in general council (in fact, IIRC the committee for it were proposed to be part of Vatican II, but that was nixed), no bishops proposing definitively, dispersed, but in unison, in union with their "head."  Just a statement by your pope, "authoritative but not infallible."

IOW, once again, a distinction without a difference:you might as well say that anything your supreme pontiff says is infallible, because no one can dissent from it.

It contrast, this creed was issued, by its own words (as Fabio pointed out) ex cathedra, produced by your bishops and your supreme pontiff in general council, the bishops proposing definitely, dispersed but in unison with their "head," there being no bishop in submission to your Vatican opposed to the statements of this creed. Yet your supreme pontiff laid that aside to sign "union agreements" such as Brest which contradict the Tridentine Creed in a number of areas. So when is an infallible statement not infallible?

Here we have a credal statement that one council which your "magisterium" counts as "ecumenical/general" produced (Trent), required by one of your supreme pontiffs in their bull of all of those in submission to him, which your assembled "magisterium" were required to recite (Vatican I), and yet we are told it doesn't matter.  What guidence then can we expect by a mere encycical which was opposed by the majority of the committee charged by your "magisterium" to study the issue, and opposed explicitely by your "magisterium" such as those who produced the Winnipeg statement, precluding any "universal acceptance" of the "ordinary magisterium."
You were told by Elijahmaria that this creed does not matter. I disagree. I think it is a perfectly orthodox expression of Catholic doctrine.
Of course I disagree, as it disagrees with much of the Catholic doctrine that the signers of Brest etc. were demanding guarentees of preserving as the price of them leaving Orthodoxy.  But your supreme pontiff signed off on that.   EM is going to have to argue with you with her union of Uzhhorod (which, however, can only presume to resemble Brest, as its text does not survive IIRC), and you with your "degrees of theological certitude."  I agree that, according to the rules of the game the Vatican set up, the Tridentine Creed more than meets the criteria of infallible, but then that raises the question of how your supreme pontiff could lay it aside to sign the Union of Brest.
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« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2011, 06:40:47 PM »

It would be nice if elijahmaria could answer what it is that she objects to in the creed. The direction this discussion has taken becomes moot if, like other Eastern Catholics, she only objects to the context of its use.

I don't object to any part of it.  I don't even remember the first time I ever read it: it was the last time as well.  What I have said all along: There's nothing in it that I can't find somewhere else if I need to:  and in that light I can safely say that it is not necessary for me to pay any attention to it at all.

Half of what you've done here is re-write my meaning if not my words, and put words in my mouth.  That's ok.  But it is presumption...not semiotics.

 Wink
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« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2011, 07:32:04 PM »

It would be nice if elijahmaria could answer what it is that she objects to in the creed. The direction this discussion has taken becomes moot if, like other Eastern Catholics, she only objects to the context of its use.

I know I'm not elijahmaria but once again - my thread.  Cool

I find I'm having a difficult time with this part:

I also affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people.

Lest you think that means I'm finally going Orthodox, I'm also having difficulty with some of the excessive (to me!) praises directed at the Theotokos, in both churches, which kinda bothers me - I'd really like to sing more hymns directed to Christ but for some reason we seem to direct everything to Mary.

I'll probably wind up being declared "heterodox" by both churches, and spend the rest of my days praying the Jesus Prayer over and over and over ...  Grin
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« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2011, 08:48:12 PM »

It would be nice if elijahmaria could answer what it is that she objects to in the creed. The direction this discussion has taken becomes moot if, like other Eastern Catholics, she only objects to the context of its use.

I don't object to any part of it.  I don't even remember the first time I ever read it: it was the last time as well.  What I have said all along: There's nothing in it that I can't find somewhere else if I need to:  and in that light I can safely say that it is not necessary for me to pay any attention to it at all.

Half of what you've done here is re-write my meaning if not my words, and put words in my mouth.  That's ok.  But it is presumption...not semiotics.

 Wink
I haven't put any words into your mouth, I've been trying to figure out what you're saying. I was simply stumped because you said you felt you could safetly ignore it and decried the accusation that you didn't believe it was important by saying it was historically important.

I can find everything in the Nicene Creed elsewhere as well, it doesn't change the importance of the creed, or make it ignorable.

I can't help but think you're just trying to start misunderstandings so you have something to argue.
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« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2011, 09:18:35 PM »

I find I'm having a difficult time with this part:

I also affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people.
I believe this falls under the power of the Church to bind and loose, which was given to her by Christ.

Lest you think that means I'm finally going Orthodox, I'm also having difficulty with some of the excessive (to me!) praises directed at the Theotokos, in both churches, which kinda bothers me - I'd really like to sing more hymns directed to Christ but for some reason we seem to direct everything to Mary.

I'll probably wind up being declared "heterodox" by both churches, and spend the rest of my days praying the Jesus Prayer over and over and over ...  Grin
I don't think you're the only Catholic who feels that way. My Priest has mentioned that he doesn't really have a devotion to the Blessed Mother and a lot of the Marian devotions tend to rub him wrong.

As far as the actual liturgy of our Church (at least the Roman Rite), it is quite Christ centered. I can only think of one or two instances in the entire Mass where the Blessed Virgin Mary is mentioned. I'm not sure how it is for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom though.
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« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2011, 09:48:39 PM »

As far as the actual liturgy of our Church (at least the Roman Rite), it is quite Christ centered. I can only think of one or two instances in the entire Mass where the Blessed Virgin Mary is mentioned. I'm not sure how it is for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom though.

She is mentioned over and over again with many superlative adjectives attached to her. Indeed, I believe she is mentioned many more times than in the Roman Mass (at least in the "ordinary form", which is the only form I am familiar with).

The longer I work at this whole Christianity thing, the more and more I believe that St John's liturgy is the statement of Orthodox belief and worship par excellence. As usual, St John's liturgy gets it right on this particular issue.

In the liturgy, we often repeat:

"Commemorating our most holy, pure, most blessed and glorious lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life unto Christ our God."

To my mind, this one prayer sets everything in its proper order. It:

1. Appropriately praises the Mother of God and extols her pre-eminence as a model of Christian virtue and godliness;
2. Properly sets her in her place "among the saints", as the first of them; and
3. Having done these things, reminds us that we are to honour the Mother of God and the saints but commend ourselves and one another to Christ alone, who is the true God.

This is not the only mention of the Mother of God in St John's liturgy, but I think it is representative of the general attitude towards her which is to be found in the liturgy. I am sometimes uneasy about some of the akathists and other services which are prayed to or prayed in honour of the Theotokos, but I think there is nothing remotely objectionable or upsetting in St John's liturgy.

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2011, 09:55:47 PM »

As far as the actual liturgy of our Church (at least the Roman Rite), it is quite Christ centered. I can only think of one or two instances in the entire Mass where the Blessed Virgin Mary is mentioned. I'm not sure how it is for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom though.

She is commemorated along with all the saints at the end of most litanies, but even that commemoration goes "Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God."
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« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2011, 10:16:28 PM »

Wyatt, also, the one big hymn in St John's liturgy dedicated to the Mother of God is called the theotokion, which comes after the Precious Gifts have been consecrated and the celebrant offers them on behalf of our "forefathers, fathers, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, every righteous spirit made perfect in faith and especially for our most holy, pure, most blessed and glorious lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary".

The theotokion for most weeks is as follows:

"It is truly right to bless thee, o Theotokos,
ever blessed and most pure and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee."

The following is often substituted for the usual theotokion:

"All of Creation rejoices in thee, o full of grace:
the angels in heaven and the race of men,
o sanctified temple and noetic paradise,
the glory of virgins, of whom God was incarnate
and became a child, our God before the ages.
He made thy body into a throne,
and thy womb more spacious than the heavens.
All of creation rejoices in thee, o full of grace:
Glory be to thee."

Again, I feel both of these hymns give the proper "treatment" to the Mother of God (apologies for the crass turn of phrase), both extolling her holiness and supreme virtue and setting these qualities in the context of her being the birth-giver of the Incarnate Word of God, who is the only source of our life and of our salvation.
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« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2011, 11:08:57 PM »

I don't want to derail my own thread (though I guess I could, if I wanted to!  Cheesy ).  But I guess I was a little put off by the hymns we sang this morning before the liturgy.

One goes "Mary Look Upon Us, and favor with your grace" - I would much rather sing about the grace that comes from Christ!

Also, we had a cantor who insisted on singing "Ave Maria" (though in Italian, not Latin!).  Then we sang yet another Marian hymn.

Finally the Liturgy started and we could get back to singing to God!

Believe me, I do understand the theology of the Theotokos and I know that "it is truly proper to glorify her", but sometimes it gets to be a little too much.  Shocked
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« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2011, 11:12:18 PM »

I don't want to derail my own thread (though I guess I could, if I wanted to!  Cheesy ).  But I guess I was a little put off by the hymns we sang this morning before the liturgy.

One goes "Mary Look Upon Us, and favor with your grace" - I would much rather sing about the grace that comes from Christ!

Also, we had a cantor who insisted on singing "Ave Maria" (though in Italian, not Latin!).  Then we sang yet another Marian hymn.

Finally the Liturgy started and we could get back to singing to God!

Believe me, I do understand the theology of the Theotokos and I know that "it is truly proper to glorify her", but sometimes it gets to be a little too much.  Shocked

Although I am contributing to the continuing derailment of your thread, theistgal, can I ask -- are you still worshipping in a parish of the (so-called) Byzantine rite?

I didn't know these sorts of things go on amongst Byzantine Catholics.

Glad we're on the same page, anyway.
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« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2011, 12:04:42 AM »


Yet your supreme pontiff laid that aside to sign "union agreements" such as Brest which contradict the Tridentine Creed in a number of areas. So when is an infallible statement not infallible?


Hi,

I'm a new Catholic here (greatly attracted to the Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox).

I know I picked quite a heavy thread to chime in on, but to answer your question - I think context is vital to understanding this.  The teachings of Trent were specifically aimed in countering the Protestant Reformation - often called the "Counter-Reformation".  Therefore the purpose of this creed in question was to clearly define what was required belief for protestants coming back into the Roman Church and this would have had nothing at all to do with the East.  For the Catholic Church, protestants and Orthodox are apples and oranges. For authoritative documents regarding the East, check the documents of Vatican II.  Hope that helps and GOd bless. 
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« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2011, 12:30:45 AM »

Although I am contributing to the continuing derailment of your thread, theistgal, can I ask -- are you still worshipping in a parish of the (so-called) Byzantine rite?

Continuing to contribute to the derailment of my own thread, yes, and for reasons I have detailed elsewhere.  Grin
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« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2011, 08:24:12 AM »

Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
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« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2011, 09:53:20 AM »

Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
Hello,

Peace be with you!  The key is in your statement "binding on all Romans".  As I said in my above post, trying to apply statements or documents which were addressing the protestant Reformation in Europe to Eastern Christendom is off the mark.  That would be like trying to apply a U.S. Supreme Court decision to the people of Canada.   laugh  The creed would be perfectly orthodox for Roman Catholics, but the Catholic Church has made it clear that the East has received the Apostolic faith differently and certain things in Roman Catholicism don't make sense theologically to the East.  East and West are apples and oranges, and those who are trying to apply Trent to the East are mistakenly mixing the bushels!  Grin
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« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2011, 09:56:13 AM »


Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
Hello,

Peace be with you!  As I said in my above post, trying to apply statements or documents which were addressing the protestant Reformation in Europe to Eastern Christendom is off the mark.  That would be like trying to apply a U.S. Supreme Court decision to the people of Canada.   laugh  The creed would be perfectly orthodox for Roman Catholics, but the Catholic Church has made it clear that the East has received the Apostolic faith differently and certain things in Roman Catholicism don't make sense theologically to the East.  East and West are apples and oranges, and those who are trying to apply Trent to the East are mistakenly mixing the bushels!  Grin


I believe in *one* God, and in the Church, which is *one*, holy, catholic and apostolic.
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« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2011, 10:03:38 AM »



Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
Hello,

Peace be with you!  As I said in my above post, trying to apply statements or documents which were addressing the protestant Reformation in Europe to Eastern Christendom is off the mark.  That would be like trying to apply a U.S. Supreme Court decision to the people of Canada.   laugh  The creed would be perfectly orthodox for Roman Catholics, but the Catholic Church has made it clear that the East has received the Apostolic faith differently and certain things in Roman Catholicism don't make sense theologically to the East.  East and West are apples and oranges, and those who are trying to apply Trent to the East are mistakenly mixing the bushels!  Grin


I believe in *one* God, and in the Church, which is *one*, holy, catholic and apostolic.
Yes, it is one, but within that oneness there is diversity of tradition and expression.  That's what makes it "universal".  Same truths, different means of expression.  The universal Church is not "Roman".  It is the union of many churches together, just like the United States is a union of different places with different histories.  Texas and New York are as different as can be, but the are both part of the U.S.  Each state has its own government and applies the Constitution in different ways, but they are all still one.
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« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2011, 12:59:32 PM »



Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
Hello,

Peace be with you!  As I said in my above post, trying to apply statements or documents which were addressing the protestant Reformation in Europe to Eastern Christendom is off the mark.  That would be like trying to apply a U.S. Supreme Court decision to the people of Canada.   laugh  The creed would be perfectly orthodox for Roman Catholics, but the Catholic Church has made it clear that the East has received the Apostolic faith differently and certain things in Roman Catholicism don't make sense theologically to the East.  East and West are apples and oranges, and those who are trying to apply Trent to the East are mistakenly mixing the bushels!  Grin


I believe in *one* God, and in the Church, which is *one*, holy, catholic and apostolic.
Yes, it is one, but within that oneness there is diversity of tradition and expression.  That's what makes it "universal".  Same truths, different means of expression.  The universal Church is not "Roman".  It is the union of many churches together, just like the United States is a union of different places with different histories.  Texas and New York are as different as can be, but the are both part of the U.S.  Each state has its own government and applies the Constitution in different ways, but they are all still one.

And all alike are bound by the law that the US Congress passes (like Trent) and by decisions of the US Supreme Court (like SP Pius IV)
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« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2011, 01:10:08 PM »

Is there anything in this Creed that you specifically disagreed with?

Hi Wyatt - I know you addressed this to elijahmaria but since I'm the OP I hope you won't mind if I respond also.  Smiley

My objection to this Creed is less the content than the belligerent attitude.  I agree with others who said it sounds more like a loyalty oath.

I also object to RC's who are using it as a "test" to see if EC's are really C.  Wink
That makes sense. The only part of that creed that I didn't particularly care for was the part at the beginning that referred to the Church as the "Holy Roman Church." I mean, I get what it's saying by that since the headquarters of our Church is in Rome, but the Catholic Church as a whole is certainly not just Roman. That part seems to be kind of a slap in the face to the Eastern Catholic Churches. The rest of it though seemed doctrinally orthodox.
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« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2011, 01:18:16 PM »



Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
Hello,

Peace be with you!  As I said in my above post, trying to apply statements or documents which were addressing the protestant Reformation in Europe to Eastern Christendom is off the mark.  That would be like trying to apply a U.S. Supreme Court decision to the people of Canada.   laugh  The creed would be perfectly orthodox for Roman Catholics, but the Catholic Church has made it clear that the East has received the Apostolic faith differently and certain things in Roman Catholicism don't make sense theologically to the East.  East and West are apples and oranges, and those who are trying to apply Trent to the East are mistakenly mixing the bushels!  Grin


I believe in *one* God, and in the Church, which is *one*, holy, catholic and apostolic.
Yes, it is one, but within that oneness there is diversity of tradition and expression.  That's what makes it "universal".  Same truths, different means of expression.  The universal Church is not "Roman".  It is the union of many churches together, just like the United States is a union of different places with different histories.  Texas and New York are as different as can be, but the are both part of the U.S.  Each state has its own government and applies the Constitution in different ways, but they are all still one.


The comparison is true for the "federation" of Orthodox churches. Each jurisdiction as a "state", the councils as  an ad hoc "congress" (the primate would be a prime-minister and not a king or president) and the Creed as the "Constitution".

But if the governor of Texas said that his office is, in all-times, by divine and inalliable right the president and prime-minister of the US, that all other states must submit to him, that his laws are binding not only to Texas but to all states, that in fact he is infallible, this is not a parallel tradition, but an imperialistic force. It would not be an "American tradition" but an anti-American façade by a degenarate state (I'm talking about this hypothetical state, not the actual Texas!)

That's how I see the political analogies:

Orthodoxy: A Federation;
Roman Catapapism: a Monarchy;
Pre-Chalcedonians: Independent City-States;
Protestantism: Anarcho-capitalism (no government, society based on contracts only, the "contract" being the particular understanding each group has of the Bible).

And, being honest, in a Federation you can have a monarchical state, an anarcho-capitalist state and even an independent city state, but the same is not true for any of the other three, that force its own form over its constituent parts.

And indeed, in Orthodoxy we have "anarcho-capitalist" groups which are monasteries, we have monarchical institutions which are the patriarchates and dioceses, we have independent city-states like the Church of Sinai  or Athos. This kind of diversity is simply not possible elsewhere, which is evidence that the Orthodox Church is the true Church.
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« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2011, 01:52:25 PM »

But if the governor of Texas said that his office is, in all-times, by divine and inalliable right the president and prime-minister of the US, that all other states must submit to him, that his laws are binding not only to Texas but to all states, that in fact he is infallible, this is not a parallel tradition, but an imperialistic force. It would not be an "American tradition" but an anti-American façade by a degenarate state (I'm talking about this hypothetical state, not the actual Texas!)
This seems to sidestep the fact that we have a President of the United States. The Confederacy didn't win.

And indeed, in Orthodoxy we have "anarcho-capitalist" groups which are monasteries, we have monarchical institutions which are the patriarchates and dioceses, we have independent city-states like the Church of Sinai  or Athos. This kind of diversity is simply not possible elsewhere, which is evidence that the Orthodox Church is the true Church.
It's evidence that God has not abandoned Eastern Orthodoxy. I'll agree with that, but that is not surprising to me. The Spirit blows where it will. While I believe the Holy Spirit operates within the Church, I would not go so far as to say that He is absent everywhere else. Obviously He isn't because I grew in my relationship with Jesus Christ for the first 18 years of my life as a Protestant, and I think we can all agree that the True Church cannot be found within Protestantism.
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« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2011, 02:03:04 PM »

But if the governor of Texas said that his office is, in all-times, by divine and inalliable right the president and prime-minister of the US, that all other states must submit to him, that his laws are binding not only to Texas but to all states, that in fact he is infallible, this is not a parallel tradition, but an imperialistic force. It would not be an "American tradition" but an anti-American façade by a degenarate state (I'm talking about this hypothetical state, not the actual Texas!)
This seems to sidestep the fact that we have a President of the United States. The Confederacy didn't win.
we can all agree that the True Church cannot be found within Protestantism.

More like the Speaker of the House than the President, if we were to use the US government for an anology.
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« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2011, 02:29:13 PM »

But if the governor of Texas said that his office is, in all-times, by divine and inalliable right the president and prime-minister of the US, that all other states must submit to him, that his laws are binding not only to Texas but to all states, that in fact he is infallible, this is not a parallel tradition, but an imperialistic force. It would not be an "American tradition" but an anti-American façade by a degenarate state (I'm talking about this hypothetical state, not the actual Texas!)
This seems to sidestep the fact that we have a President of the United States. The Confederacy didn't win.

Romans sometimes discuss with Orthodox with the same arguments they use for Protestants. Smiley

That's why I said the analogy for Orthodoxy is a Federation and not a Confederation. There is a leader, a primate. Only that it is not a presidential federation - the president is not the governor of any particular state.

The pope in current Roman administrative model is the "governor" of a "state" in, this case, the see of Rome itself. Only that he has direct authority over the other states as well.

If the Church were a secular country, it would be ruled by a congress only. This congress has a "president of the congress" role that is one of the congressmen. But the "president of the congress" is not the "president of the country". The "Chief of Government" and "Chief of State" is the congress itself.

My main reference for this is the Justinian Institutions, I quoted elsewhere in another thread. I think it is a "decisive" reference for the following reasons:

1 - It is a source from the middle of the 1st millenium. They are witnesses of how things were organized back then;

2 - It is a non-ecclesiastical source, so it is not concerned with internal church politics (although certainly in dialogue with it);

3 - It is a legal formulation to it is concerned both with clarity and with the current norms of the time;

4 - It was written as part of a larger effort to compile in concise terms the rules and laws governing the Empire back then, getting away with a lot of "trash" laws that were no longer used or useful; So, there was an effort to understand how things worked and to restate then in clear legal terms;

In these Institutions, the Justinian laws define the Pope as "Head of the Bishops". Interestingly enough, it's not "Head of the Church" as the "visible"/"invisible" head analogy portrays.  The "Head of the Bishops" is the president of a council and it is this council that governs, not its president.

A country governed by a council of governors, one of which presides the council (he does not rule over it). That's the Apostolic tradition, not a country governed by a president.

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« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2011, 02:34:27 PM »

But if the governor of Texas said that his office is, in all-times, by divine and inalliable right the president and prime-minister of the US, that all other states must submit to him, that his laws are binding not only to Texas but to all states, that in fact he is infallible, this is not a parallel tradition, but an imperialistic force. It would not be an "American tradition" but an anti-American façade by a degenarate state (I'm talking about this hypothetical state, not the actual Texas!)
This seems to sidestep the fact that we have a President of the United States. The Confederacy didn't win.
we can all agree that the True Church cannot be found within Protestantism.

More like the Speaker of the House than the President, if we were to use the US government for an anology.

Exactly. And notice that the Speaker of the House *does* have some actual power, so it is not the "merely honorific" title some claim.
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« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2011, 03:33:00 PM »



Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
Hello,

Peace be with you!  As I said in my above post, trying to apply statements or documents which were addressing the protestant Reformation in Europe to Eastern Christendom is off the mark.  That would be like trying to apply a U.S. Supreme Court decision to the people of Canada.   laugh  The creed would be perfectly orthodox for Roman Catholics, but the Catholic Church has made it clear that the East has received the Apostolic faith differently and certain things in Roman Catholicism don't make sense theologically to the East.  East and West are apples and oranges, and those who are trying to apply Trent to the East are mistakenly mixing the bushels!  Grin


I believe in *one* God, and in the Church, which is *one*, holy, catholic and apostolic.
Yes, it is one, but within that oneness there is diversity of tradition and expression.  That's what makes it "universal".  Same truths, different means of expression.  The universal Church is not "Roman".  It is the union of many churches together, just like the United States is a union of different places with different histories.  Texas and New York are as different as can be, but the are both part of the U.S.  Each state has its own government and applies the Constitution in different ways, but they are all still one.


The comparison is true for the "federation" of Orthodox churches. Each jurisdiction as a "state", the councils as  an ad hoc "congress" (the primate would be a prime-minister and not a king or president) and the Creed as the "Constitution".

But if the governor of Texas said that his office is, in all-times, by divine and inalliable right the president and prime-minister of the US, that all other states must submit to him, that his laws are binding not only to Texas but to all states, that in fact he is infallible, this is not a parallel tradition, but an imperialistic force. It would not be an "American tradition" but an anti-American façade by a degenarate state (I'm talking about this hypothetical state, not the actual Texas!)

That's how I see the political analogies:

Orthodoxy: A Federation;
Roman CatapapismThe Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ: a Monarchy;
Pre-Chalcedonians: Independent City-States;
Protestantism: Anarcho-capitalism (no government, society based on contracts only, the "contract" being the particular understanding each group has of the Bible).

And, being honest, in a Federation you can have a monarchical state, an anarcho-capitalist state and even an independent city state, but the same is not true for any of the other three, that force its own form over its constituent parts.

And indeed, in Orthodoxy we have "anarcho-capitalist" groups which are monasteries, we have monarchical institutions which are the patriarchates and dioceses, we have independent city-states like the Church of Sinai  or Athos. This kind of diversity is simply not possible elsewhere, which is evidence that the Orthodox Church is the true Church.
Fixed it for ya.
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« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2011, 04:00:30 PM »



Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
Hello,

Peace be with you!  As I said in my above post, trying to apply statements or documents which were addressing the protestant Reformation in Europe to Eastern Christendom is off the mark.  That would be like trying to apply a U.S. Supreme Court decision to the people of Canada.   laugh  The creed would be perfectly orthodox for Roman Catholics, but the Catholic Church has made it clear that the East has received the Apostolic faith differently and certain things in Roman Catholicism don't make sense theologically to the East.  East and West are apples and oranges, and those who are trying to apply Trent to the East are mistakenly mixing the bushels!  Grin


I believe in *one* God, and in the Church, which is *one*, holy, catholic and apostolic.
Yes, it is one, but within that oneness there is diversity of tradition and expression.  That's what makes it "universal".  Same truths, different means of expression.  The universal Church is not "Roman".  It is the union of many churches together, just like the United States is a union of different places with different histories.  Texas and New York are as different as can be, but the are both part of the U.S.  Each state has its own government and applies the Constitution in different ways, but they are all still one.


The comparison is true for the "federation" of Orthodox churches. Each jurisdiction as a "state", the councils as  an ad hoc "congress" (the primate would be a prime-minister and not a king or president) and the Creed as the "Constitution".

But if the governor of Texas said that his office is, in all-times, by divine and inalliable right the president and prime-minister of the US, that all other states must submit to him, that his laws are binding not only to Texas but to all states, that in fact he is infallible, this is not a parallel tradition, but an imperialistic force. It would not be an "American tradition" but an anti-American façade by a degenarate state (I'm talking about this hypothetical state, not the actual Texas!)

That's how I see the political analogies:

Orthodoxy: A Federation;
Roman CatapapismThe Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ: a Monarchy;
Pre-Chalcedonians: Independent City-States;
Protestantism: Anarcho-capitalism (no government, society based on contracts only, the "contract" being the particular understanding each group has of the Bible).

And, being honest, in a Federation you can have a monarchical state, an anarcho-capitalist state and even an independent city state, but the same is not true for any of the other three, that force its own form over its constituent parts.

And indeed, in Orthodoxy we have "anarcho-capitalist" groups which are monasteries, we have monarchical institutions which are the patriarchates and dioceses, we have independent city-states like the Church of Sinai  or Athos. This kind of diversity is simply not possible elsewhere, which is evidence that the Orthodox Church is the true Church.
Fixed it for ya.
now if you could only fix your ecclesial community. I notice how you left monarchy, evidently not disputed that: it should say "absolute monarchy."  To further the analogy, your supreme pontiff has the same relationship to the "sui juris" churches like Canada had before patriation.  Which again raises issues about the preemption of such Latin acts over the union promises, much like the British Constitution preempted French law, the latter only allowed (tolerated?) by the pleasure of the Quebec Act, an Act of the British Parliament, or does it resemble the retention of French Law in Louisiana, which is by treaty and the guarentee of state sovereignty when entering the US union?
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« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2011, 07:15:18 PM »



Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
Hello,

Peace be with you!  As I said in my above post, trying to apply statements or documents which were addressing the protestant Reformation in Europe to Eastern Christendom is off the mark.  That would be like trying to apply a U.S. Supreme Court decision to the people of Canada.   laugh  The creed would be perfectly orthodox for Roman Catholics, but the Catholic Church has made it clear that the East has received the Apostolic faith differently and certain things in Roman Catholicism don't make sense theologically to the East.  East and West are apples and oranges, and those who are trying to apply Trent to the East are mistakenly mixing the bushels!  Grin


I believe in *one* God, and in the Church, which is *one*, holy, catholic and apostolic.
Yes, it is one, but within that oneness there is diversity of tradition and expression.  That's what makes it "universal".  Same truths, different means of expression.  The universal Church is not "Roman".  It is the union of many churches together, just like the United States is a union of different places with different histories.  Texas and New York are as different as can be, but the are both part of the U.S.  Each state has its own government and applies the Constitution in different ways, but they are all still one.


The comparison is true for the "federation" of Orthodox churches. Each jurisdiction as a "state", the councils as  an ad hoc "congress" (the primate would be a prime-minister and not a king or president) and the Creed as the "Constitution".

But if the governor of Texas said that his office is, in all-times, by divine and inalliable right the president and prime-minister of the US, that all other states must submit to him, that his laws are binding not only to Texas but to all states, that in fact he is infallible, this is not a parallel tradition, but an imperialistic force. It would not be an "American tradition" but an anti-American façade by a degenarate state (I'm talking about this hypothetical state, not the actual Texas!)

That's how I see the political analogies:

Orthodoxy: A Federation;
Roman CatapapismThe Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ: a Monarchy;
Pre-Chalcedonians: Independent City-States;
Protestantism: Anarcho-capitalism (no government, society based on contracts only, the "contract" being the particular understanding each group has of the Bible).

And, being honest, in a Federation you can have a monarchical state, an anarcho-capitalist state and even an independent city state, but the same is not true for any of the other three, that force its own form over its constituent parts.

And indeed, in Orthodoxy we have "anarcho-capitalist" groups which are monasteries, we have monarchical institutions which are the patriarchates and dioceses, we have independent city-states like the Church of Sinai  or Athos. This kind of diversity is simply not possible elsewhere, which is evidence that the Orthodox Church is the true Church.
Fixed it for ya.
now if you could only fix your ecclesial community. I notice how you left monarchy, evidently not disputed that: it should say "absolute monarchy."  To further the analogy, your supreme pontiff has the same relationship to the "sui juris" churches like Canada had before patriation.  Which again raises issues about the preemption of such Latin acts over the union promises, much like the British Constitution preempted French law, the latter only allowed (tolerated?) by the pleasure of the Quebec Act, an Act of the British Parliament, or does it resemble the retention of French Law in Louisiana, which is by treaty and the guarentee of state sovereignty when entering the US union?



Great Papist! So you have finally stopped believing that the infallible teaching of the Holy Spirit over matters of faith come according to the Pope in some particular statements and accepted the Traditional view that it comes according to the whole?
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« Reply #83 on: September 14, 2011, 12:38:49 PM »



Papal bulls tend NOT to be numbered among "ex cathedra" teachings...It is a tendency...you know like those grey areas in Orthodoxy that Father Ambrose mentions so often.

We may discuss the "grey areas" in its proper thread. They are a tempting way to avoid the fact that *this* bull in particular is from "motu proprio", in its very name, proclaimed to be "ex cathedra". Or the cathedra of Peter is not the cathedra from where "ex cathedra" proclamations come?

Quote
In sacrosancta beati Petri, principis apostolorum, cathedra"..."In Petri cathedra"

As Isa said: the supreme pontiff makes an explicit ex cathedra proclamation over an ecumenical council that is supported even today by the Roman magisterium. How on Earth can that not be binding to all Romans who believe all these things? What is the point of infallibility, magisterium, ecumenical councils etc etc, when, having all these combined, it is still "ok" to not take it into consideration?
Hello,

Peace be with you!  As I said in my above post, trying to apply statements or documents which were addressing the protestant Reformation in Europe to Eastern Christendom is off the mark.  That would be like trying to apply a U.S. Supreme Court decision to the people of Canada.   laugh  The creed would be perfectly orthodox for Roman Catholics, but the Catholic Church has made it clear that the East has received the Apostolic faith differently and certain things in Roman Catholicism don't make sense theologically to the East.  East and West are apples and oranges, and those who are trying to apply Trent to the East are mistakenly mixing the bushels!  Grin


I believe in *one* God, and in the Church, which is *one*, holy, catholic and apostolic.
Yes, it is one, but within that oneness there is diversity of tradition and expression.  That's what makes it "universal".  Same truths, different means of expression.  The universal Church is not "Roman".  It is the union of many churches together, just like the United States is a union of different places with different histories.  Texas and New York are as different as can be, but the are both part of the U.S.  Each state has its own government and applies the Constitution in different ways, but they are all still one.


The comparison is true for the "federation" of Orthodox churches. Each jurisdiction as a "state", the councils as  an ad hoc "congress" (the primate would be a prime-minister and not a king or president) and the Creed as the "Constitution".

But if the governor of Texas said that his office is, in all-times, by divine and inalliable right the president and prime-minister of the US, that all other states must submit to him, that his laws are binding not only to Texas but to all states, that in fact he is infallible, this is not a parallel tradition, but an imperialistic force. It would not be an "American tradition" but an anti-American façade by a degenarate state (I'm talking about this hypothetical state, not the actual Texas!)

That's how I see the political analogies:

Orthodoxy: A Federation;
Roman CatapapismThe Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ: a Monarchy;
Pre-Chalcedonians: Independent City-States;
Protestantism: Anarcho-capitalism (no government, society based on contracts only, the "contract" being the particular understanding each group has of the Bible).

And, being honest, in a Federation you can have a monarchical state, an anarcho-capitalist state and even an independent city state, but the same is not true for any of the other three, that force its own form over its constituent parts.

And indeed, in Orthodoxy we have "anarcho-capitalist" groups which are monasteries, we have monarchical institutions which are the patriarchates and dioceses, we have independent city-states like the Church of Sinai  or Athos. This kind of diversity is simply not possible elsewhere, which is evidence that the Orthodox Church is the true Church.
Fixed it for ya.
now if you could only fix your ecclesial community. I notice how you left monarchy, evidently not disputed that: it should say "absolute monarchy."  To further the analogy, your supreme pontiff has the same relationship to the "sui juris" churches like Canada had before patriation.  Which again raises issues about the preemption of such Latin acts over the union promises, much like the British Constitution preempted French law, the latter only allowed (tolerated?) by the pleasure of the Quebec Act, an Act of the British Parliament, or does it resemble the retention of French Law in Louisiana, which is by treaty and the guarentee of state sovereignty when entering the US union?



Great Papist! So you have finally stopped believing that the infallible teaching of the Holy Spirit over matters of faith come according to the Pope in some particular statements and accepted the Traditional view that it comes according to the whole?

You question is invalid, as it assumes that the two are mutually exlcusive, when they most certainly are not.
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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