augustin717
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« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2011, 03:00:34 AM » |
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If I ever left Orthodoxy it would be for atheism.
That's another religious position. Just be honest and go for agnosticism if it comes down to it. I've always been kind of a churchy agnostic. At the end, who knows? |
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
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Hoplitarches
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And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
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« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2011, 03:10:04 AM » |
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So is God unknown or unknowable?
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2011, 03:10:35 AM » |
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If I ever left Orthodoxy it would be for atheism.
That's another religious position. Just be honest and go for agnosticism if it comes down to it. I've always been kind of a churchy agnostic. At the end, who knows? lol its nice to know there's room in odoxy for those... |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2011, 03:11:31 AM » |
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So is God unknown or unknowable?
who knows?  |
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David Young
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Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,741
2012
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« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2011, 03:24:46 AM » |
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Do you mean that the elements have a salvific effect? I take 'salvific' to mean 'bringing salvation', so in the sense with which Orthodox tend to use the word salvation, perhaps yes; in the sense we tend to use it, no. I say "perhaps", for it ill becomes me to attempt here to explain Orthodox thinking! But I shall attempt to explain. Setting aside for a moment the word salvation, let us consider a different biblical analogy, that of birth and growth. A baby is born, and from then on is gradually nourished over the years and decades and grows from infancy through childhood and adolescence to mature manhood. Likewise, a person is 'born again' (which I shall come back to in a moment) as a 'babe in Christ', and thereafter nourishes himself day by day, decade by decade, and grows in knowledge, experience, sanctity, faith, and stature as a mature Christian. We tend, in common (not technical, theological) parlance, to use the word salvation (or saved) of the birth, you (I believe) of the entire process including its completion in glory. So, is the Eucharist salvific? Yes and no. It does not contribute to the birth - that is the work of the Holy Spirit upon a sinner, wrought through faith; but the Communion should indeed contribute to the growth. It is, to use a common phrase, one of "the means of grace". To return to the term born again, I find it hard to know why so many previous posts on this thread - and on others, I seem to recall - speak so slightingly, one might say mockingly, of that sacred moment when a sinner, through God's grace, repents, believes, and is born again. In heaven, the angels rejoice. Ought not Orthodox on earth to do the same? |
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 03:26:48 AM by David Young »
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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
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mabsoota
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Posts: 1,711
Kyrie eleison
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« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2011, 05:01:13 AM » |
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hi, dear david young, it's the same process you described in the birth of the child. the birth is what we call 'being born again' and we believe it happens during baptism. you are right, the process of life is salvation (for us). so the process is similar. i will add in my next post the Bible references for this belief.  |
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mabsoota
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Kyrie eleison
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« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2011, 05:06:25 AM » |
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these verses (among others) convinced me that orthodox theology was correct.
a few years ago i was protestant.
Romans 5 verses 1 and 2: ‘Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.’
James 2 verses 17 and 24: ‘faith without works is dead’ ‘a man is justified by works and not faith only’.
Matthew 6 verse 12: ‘forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors’.
James 5 verses 9 and 19-20: ‘Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!’ ‘Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.’
Philippians 2 verse 12: ‘work out your own salvation with fear and trembling’
Philippians 1 verse 6: ‘ He who has begun a good work in you will complete it’.
1 Peter 1:9 : '..receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls'.
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David Young
High Elder
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Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,741
2012
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« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2011, 06:08:07 AM » |
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we believe it happens during baptism. My personal view is that somehow both you and we have separated the new birth and baptism too far from each other. We tend to leave it till a while after the new birth, and thus to emphasise baptism less than the NT does (despite our denominational title), whilst in infant baptism you bring it forward too far, that is, before faith. It seems to me - though I do not profess to understand it - that the two are far more closely linked in the NT than in either your church or ours. Believing abd being baptised should be much more intimately linked for us all. |
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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2011, 06:34:56 AM » |
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Do you mean that the elements have a salvific effect? I take 'salvific' to mean 'bringing salvation', so in the sense with which Orthodox tend to use the word salvation, perhaps yes; in the sense we tend to use it, no. I say "perhaps", for it ill becomes me to attempt here to explain Orthodox thinking! But I shall attempt to explain. Setting aside for a moment the word salvation, let us consider a different biblical analogy, that of birth and growth. A baby is born, and from then on is gradually nourished over the years and decades and grows from infancy through childhood and adolescence to mature manhood. Likewise, a person is 'born again' (which I shall come back to in a moment) as a 'babe in Christ', and thereafter nourishes himself day by day, decade by decade, and grows in knowledge, experience, sanctity, faith, and stature as a mature Christian. We tend, in common (not technical, theological) parlance, to use the word salvation (or saved) of the birth, you (I believe) of the entire process including its completion in glory. So, is the Eucharist salvific? Yes and no. It does not contribute to the birth - that is the work of the Holy Spirit upon a sinner, wrought through faith; but the Communion should indeed contribute to the growth. It is, to use a common phrase, one of "the means of grace". To return to the term born again, I find it hard to know why so many previous posts on this thread - and on others, I seem to recall - speak so slightingly, one might say mockingly, of that sacred moment when a sinner, through God's grace, repents, believes, and is born again. In heaven, the angels rejoice. Ought not Orthodox on earth to do the same? There is a lot I like about this post. Thank you, Pastor David. |
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
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Hoplitarches
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Posts: 9,302
And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
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« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2011, 06:50:55 AM » |
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So is God unknown or unknowable?
who knows? Well the angel named Moroni visited and... |
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2011, 09:55:04 AM » |
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So is God unknown or unknowable?
who knows? Well the angel named Moroni visited and... I had macaroni with cheese yesterday...so apparently he visited me too! |
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Dyhn
Jr. Member
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Faith: Inquirer ~ actively working towards catechumen
Posts: 89
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« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2011, 10:17:44 AM » |
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So is God unknown or unknowable?
Unknowable, it seems to me. If this is a cruicial aspect of worship then i have no helpful answer. ~ Dyhn |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2011, 10:22:58 AM » |
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So is God unknown or unknowable?
This is one of a thousand things that we discuss in chat. Well, actually, orthonorm pushes us back and step and makes us explain what we mean by God to begin with. You must come more often. You must. Must. |
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
Site Supporter
Warned
Hoplitarches
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Faith: Building Steam with a Grain of Salt
Jurisdiction: Just as little is seen in pure light as in pure darkness.
Posts: 9,302
And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
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« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2011, 10:32:13 PM » |
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So is God unknown or unknowable?
This is one of a thousand things that we discuss in chat. Well, actually, orthonorm pushes us back and step and makes us explain what we mean by God to begin with. You must come more often. You must. Must. Cool what time do you guys normally get on the chat? I work overnight. |
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2011, 01:23:23 AM » |
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So is God unknown or unknowable?
This is one of a thousand things that we discuss in chat. Well, actually, orthonorm pushes us back and step and makes us explain what we mean by God to begin with. You must come more often. You must. Must. Cool what time do you guys normally get on the chat? I work overnight. I dunno, I usually just watch from about 8pm to 1am (EST) to see if anyone posts in the oc.net thread on the board news section. Right now there's a few of us, but not a whole lot of conversation. |
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