Author Topic: Scrap the verses and chapters!  (Read 532 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,444
Scrap the verses and chapters!
« on: September 29, 2017, 10:37:11 AM »
if it was up to me I'd probably scrap verses and chapters all together.

That would certainly make my life easier. I don't remember passages very well by chapter and verse, only by general location.

That's been done for you.

Even though you're only going to get the Protestant canon out of it, the ESV Reader's Bible is now my primary Bible because it is a). single-column and b). completely foregoes verses. It maintains the chapter notations for navigation purposes, but cutting out the versification (and dictionary format) will change how you read the Bible more than you realize until you take it up.

Holman has a similar version of the CSB hitting the market this month (if it hasn't already), and Tyndale is publishing a Catholic version of the NLT in a similar format.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline William T

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,420
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 11:02:22 AM »
Nice, that's going on my wish list

There is a NT translation by the famous classicist Richard Lattimore, that I read on occasion because he got rid of the verses and chapters:

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Richmond-Lattimore/dp/0865475245

It would be nice to have a competing translation as well as the OT to go along with that.


I do think scrapping chapters might be a bit excessive, they're probably needed especially for much of the OT books, and probably the Gospels and Acts.  You might be able to get by without chapters in all of the Epistles though.


There are instances where the chapter breaks mess with the Orthodox lectionary.   If I recall it's a fairly common thing.  So I think even there an Orthodox Bible would have different chapters.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 11:13:29 AM by William T »
Holy Toledo!

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,444
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 11:15:18 AM »
You might be able to get by without chapters in all of the Epistles though.

Agreed. In some instances they directly interrupt the flow of thought, e.g. Hebrews 11:1 starting with "Therefore..."

Quote
There are instances where the chapter breaks mess with the Orthodox lectionary.   If I recall it's a fairly common thing.  So I think even there an Orthodox Bible would have different chapters.

I've noticed, and heard priests complain, that often the verses:numbers listed in the publicly published lectionaries don't actually line up with the Gospel/Epistle books, so you get readings that just drop off sometimes in mid-sentence if you're just reading from a reference Bible.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,183
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2017, 12:44:20 PM »
Boys, if you follow this pursuit, you'll open a world of magnificent reading and joy. Someone already mentioned Lattimore, whose translation of the NT, while it shares in some of the normal Protestant flaws, I can't recommend too highly. If it's possible to be even kinder to the Greek, in wonderful English, there's E.V. Rieu, altho he got no farther than the Gospels. Someone should have already mentioned the new Cambridge Paragraph Bible by David Norton. For Hebrew Scriptures, nothing beats the work of Robert Alter. Some like the Schocken Bible for that, but it's too frilly for my taste.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,444
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2017, 05:13:18 PM »
Someone should have already mentioned the new Cambridge Paragraph Bible by David Norton.

Bible Design Blog has a couple of really complimentary reviews of it, which seems like a pretty good stamp of approval to me.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Online RobS

  • Formerly "nothing"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,037
  • St. Gregory Palamas, pray for me!
  • Jurisdiction: The thrilling romance of Holy Orthodoxy
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2017, 05:48:10 PM »
Lattimore, whose translation of the NT, while it shares in some of the normal Protestant flaws, I can't recommend too highly.
Wow, I've had that on my wishlist for awhile now...might just get this today since its 40% off on amazon.

BTW as an aside, any opinions on this Porter?

Synopsis of the Four Gospels, Revised Standard Version by American Bible Society
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585169420/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Quote
Cambridge Paragraph Bible by David Norton.
I have this Bible and it's superb. I wish I could get a NKJV in paragraph style too.

Quote
For Hebrew Scriptures, nothing beats the work of Robert Alter.
+100. I love his Psalms and Wisdom literature translations. Just beautiful.

Shocked by how much I agree with you here...
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,444
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 05:55:18 PM »
I have this Bible and it's superb. I wish I could get a NKJV in paragraph style too.

The 400th anniversary AV1611 box set from Thomas Nelson has a paragraph NKJV included. I dunno if they're still on the market since that was several years ago.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,183
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 07:12:29 PM »
Lattimore, whose translation of the NT, while it shares in some of the normal Protestant flaws, I can't recommend too highly.
Wow, I've had that on my wishlist for awhile now...might just get this today since its 40% off on amazon.

Gosh go to a used bookstore in the right college town and find them for a dollar. I give them away sometimes. It's an unheard-of treasure, but only in the immaterial sense.

Quote
BTW as an aside, any opinions on this Porter?

Synopsis of the Four Gospels, Revised Standard Version by American Bible Society
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585169420/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Not my cup of tea for several reasons.

Quote
Shocked by how much I agree with you here...

You're a fine young man with an admirable future.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Ainnir

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 07:25:53 PM »
I have this Bible and it's superb. I wish I could get a NKJV in paragraph style too.

The 400th anniversary AV1611 box set from Thomas Nelson has a paragraph NKJV included. I dunno if they're still on the market since that was several years ago.

Wow that sounds so young now.   :P
"Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that."  ~me

Taking a hiatus.  Pray for me, a sinner.

Online RobS

  • Formerly "nothing"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,037
  • St. Gregory Palamas, pray for me!
  • Jurisdiction: The thrilling romance of Holy Orthodoxy
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2017, 03:27:05 PM »
Holman has a similar version of the CSB hitting the market this month (if it hasn't already)

Is it this one?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1433648091/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_7?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

It doesn't look like it from the pages you can view.

Quote
Tyndale is publishing a Catholic version of the NLT in a similar format.
Worth the 25 dollar price tag?

And Agabus I totally agree with you on a single column that eschews both chapters and verses, it really does change how you read the Bible.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 03:27:12 PM by RobS »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline thenerdpaul

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2017, 03:46:02 PM »
Holman has a similar version of the CSB hitting the market this month (if it hasn't already)

Is it this one?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1433648091/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_7?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

It doesn't look like it from the pages you can view.

Quote
Tyndale is publishing a Catholic version of the NLT in a similar format.
Worth the 25 dollar price tag?

And Agabus I totally agree with you on a single column that eschews both chapters and verses, it really does change how you read the Bible.

Nope, this one: CSB Reader's Bible (Gray Cloth)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 03:47:01 PM by thenerdpaul »
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Trying to learn more about the Old Russian Rite.

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,023
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2017, 04:01:53 PM »
if it was up to me I'd probably scrap verses and chapters all together.

That would certainly make my life easier. I don't remember passages very well by chapter and verse, only by general location.

That's been done for you.

Even though you're only going to get the Protestant canon out of it, the ESV Reader's Bible is now my primary Bible because it is a). single-column and b). completely foregoes verses. It maintains the chapter notations for navigation purposes, but cutting out the versification (and dictionary format) will change how you read the Bible more than you realize until you take it up.

Holman has a similar version of the CSB hitting the market this month (if it hasn't already), and Tyndale is publishing a Catholic version of the NLT in a similar format.

I didn't realize until now that the OP was a response to me, sorry Agabus!

And the Reader's Bible looks perfect! I love my Lattimore NT but this looks even better.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Online RobS

  • Formerly "nothing"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,037
  • St. Gregory Palamas, pray for me!
  • Jurisdiction: The thrilling romance of Holy Orthodoxy
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2017, 05:26:12 PM »
Thanks all for your help.

Anyone got a recommendation for a Psalter while we are at it? Or maybe just stick to Alter's translation?
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline thenerdpaul

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2017, 05:40:20 PM »
Thanks all for your help.

Anyone got a recommendation for a Psalter while we are at it? Or maybe just stick to Alter's translation?
The Psalter According to the Seventy by Holy Transfiguration Monastery.

Ronald Knox's translation is good based off my limited interaction with it (his translation of Psalm 118 is the best I've seen), but it isn't used in much, thus making an interesting read but not something I would use seriously.
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Trying to learn more about the Old Russian Rite.

Online xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,203
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2017, 05:57:09 PM »
The verses and chapter system was created by Erasmus, I believe. Obviously, not how the early Church read the Bible.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 35,717
  • the irregardless one
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2017, 06:17:27 PM »
There are also issues with going too far in the opposite direction, however, which can lead to mis-attributions and the conflation of passages because people are unsure where to check to get the exact words. It seems like both types of reading could be profitable.
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,933
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2017, 09:38:12 PM »
If we took away the verses and chapters from translations such as King James, English Standard Version, New King James, etc., the Protestants would have a cow. :P

Offline thenerdpaul

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2017, 09:49:01 PM »
If we took away the verses and chapters from translations such as King James, English Standard Version, New King James, etc., the Protestants would have a cow. :P
Protestants are the ones spearheading the creation of reader's bibles though, so that doesn't make much sense.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:49:12 PM by thenerdpaul »
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Trying to learn more about the Old Russian Rite.

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,568
  • Actual jerk
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2017, 09:54:49 PM »
I did this once on my own with a translation of my choice. It was so cathartic.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:55:47 PM by mcarmichael »
"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,568
  • Actual jerk
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2017, 11:50:33 PM »
Since then, however, I've taken up the habit of also dividing classical works of literature into chapter and verse. I find that it adds an interesting tone.

I put some of it on my podcast, but I doubt anyone has heard it.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 11:59:16 PM by mcarmichael »
"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

Offline Ainnir

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2017, 11:58:47 PM »
Since then, however, I've taken up the habit of also dividing classical works of literature into chapter and verse. I find that it adds an interesting tone.
Do you shift them en masse from work to work?  That would be interesting...   8)
"Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that."  ~me

Taking a hiatus.  Pray for me, a sinner.

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,568
  • Actual jerk
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2017, 12:04:18 AM »
Since then, however, I've taken up the habit of also dividing classical works of literature into chapter and verse. I find that it adds an interesting tone.
Do you shift them en masse from work to work?  That would be interesting...   8)
Are you attempting to imply that I wouldn't very assiduously submit my work to the scrutiny of all Academia? I guess you haven't heard my podcast.

I don't actually have a podcast. It was a bad joke. Or, porly executed. Maybe a great joke, but who'll know?

Although, if I remember my Shakespeare (I don't), some of his stuff goes by chapter and verse. Also textbooks.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 12:17:21 AM by mcarmichael »
"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,444
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2017, 10:22:04 AM »
Quote
Tyndale is publishing a Catholic version of the NLT in a similar format.
Worth the 25 dollar price tag?

I don't know. I haven't interacted with the 2015 update at all, mostly because I don't really care for the 2006 version and I honestly don't have a lot of need for (more) Bibles translated for people with a junior high reading level. I'm not saying they don't have a place; I'm just not the target reader.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,444
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2017, 10:25:17 AM »
Holman has a similar version of the CSB hitting the market this month (if it hasn't already)

Is it this one?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1433648091/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_7?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

It doesn't look like it from the pages you can view.

Quote
Tyndale is publishing a Catholic version of the NLT in a similar format.
Worth the 25 dollar price tag?

And Agabus I totally agree with you on a single column that eschews both chapters and verses, it really does change how you read the Bible.

Nope, this one: CSB Reader's Bible (Gray Cloth)

This is the one I meant.

I haven't seen it in hard copy, but if the choice of a reader's Bible is between the ESV and the CSB, I prefer the ESV (though I do have a bias toward the CSB because I know people who worked on it). Like the NLT, I haven't read the 2017 update of the CSB to see how it compares to the original edition I have.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 10:26:37 AM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Online RobS

  • Formerly "nothing"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,037
  • St. Gregory Palamas, pray for me!
  • Jurisdiction: The thrilling romance of Holy Orthodoxy
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 10:12:59 PM »
Holman has a similar version of the CSB hitting the market this month (if it hasn't already), and Tyndale is publishing a Catholic version of the NLT in a similar format.
Just got both of these and I might make the CSB my daily reader, it's very nice. The Catholic NLT has verse numbers but they don't break up the text. I haven't had a chance to read anything from it though.

will change how you read the Bible more than you realize until you take it up.
After reading Lattimore's you aren't kidding.

Gosh go to a used bookstore in the right college town and find them for a dollar. I give them away sometimes. It's an unheard-of treasure, but only in the immaterial sense.
I just finished reading the Gospel according to St. John from Lattimore's translation and wow it comes to life.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 35,717
  • the irregardless one
Re: Scrap the verses and chapters!
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2017, 03:02:46 PM »
I ordered the Lattimore translation today. Hype train full speed ahead.
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)