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Author Topic: Virgen de Guadalupe (and other appiritions) in WRO  (Read 19384 times) Average Rating: 0
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LBK
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« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2011, 06:24:41 PM »

"Getting to know the priest and people" is completely beside the point. Celebrating heterodox feasts in an Orthodox church cannot be justified in any way. Iconography and hymnography are the most accessible and visible expressions of Orthodox doctrine and theology. They are not playthings to be used in pandering to sectional interests, no matter how "noble" the cause.  Angry Angry
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 06:25:36 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2011, 07:27:04 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

What if the Orthodox bishops were to conduct their own investigation and declare the image miraculous?  What if they already do and that is why we find the image in Orthodox Churches in Mexico?
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« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2011, 07:31:04 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

What if the Orthodox bishops were to conduct their own investigation and declare the image miraculous?  What if they already do and that is why we find the image in Orthodox Churches in Mexico?

Show us evidence that Orthodox bishops have arrived at this conclusion, and that this has been accepted at Synodal level. Show us where in the Menaion or in any recognized Orthodox calendar we can find commemoration of this image.
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« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2011, 07:37:58 PM »

There are many post-Schism elements to all of the canonically approved Western Rites, but when it comes to feasts regarding post-Schism apparitions or post-Schism saints, you won't find it. Or shouldn't any way. The closest thing you'll find is the Our Lady of Walsingham.

Now, there are some post-Schism feasts, such as Corpus Christi and (more rarely) Sacred Heart, but they are not in any way secretive or done without the full knowledge of our hierarchs.

Interestingly, during the first (of hopefully many) Western Rite conferences between ROCOR and the AWRV, these were addressed and discussed. Some expressed concern over the continued usage of these feasts, some gave defenses of them, and it was concluded that papers will be drafted and presented to the Metropolitans for further approval (not because the Metropolitans aren't aware of it, but in an effort to hopefully approach a more unified Western use). But, Corpus Christi and Blessed Sacrament were universally agreed upon to remain in use.
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« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2011, 07:53:31 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

What if the Orthodox bishops were to conduct their own investigation and declare the image miraculous?  What if they already do and that is why we find the image in Orthodox Churches in Mexico?

Show us evidence that Orthodox bishops have arrived at this conclusion, and that this has been accepted at Synodal level. Show us where in the Menaion or in any recognized Orthodox calendar we can find commemoration of this image.

I am asking the question not making a statement.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:55:05 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2011, 09:37:04 PM »

"Getting to know the priest and people" is completely beside the point. Celebrating heterodox feasts in an Orthodox church cannot be justified in any way. Iconography and hymnography are the most accessible and visible expressions of Orthodox doctrine and theology. They are not playthings to be used in pandering to sectional interests, no matter how "noble" the cause.  Angry Angry

I agree 100% with LBK.  Giving credence to these non-Orthodox theology, within the wall of Orthodox churches is a huge mistake.

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« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2011, 10:01:26 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

What if the Orthodox bishops were to conduct their own investigation and declare the image miraculous?  What if they already do and that is why we find the image in Orthodox Churches in Mexico?

Show us evidence that Orthodox bishops have arrived at this conclusion, and that this has been accepted at Synodal level. Show us where in the Menaion or in any recognized Orthodox calendar we can find commemoration of this image.
Have they even investigated the issue?
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« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2011, 10:48:49 PM »

"Getting to know the priest and people" is completely beside the point. Celebrating heterodox feasts in an Orthodox church cannot be justified in any way. Iconography and hymnography are the most accessible and visible expressions of Orthodox doctrine and theology. They are not playthings to be used in pandering to sectional interests, no matter how "noble" the cause.  Angry Angry

I agree 100% with LBK.  Giving credence to these non-Orthodox theology, within the wall of Orthodox churches is a huge mistake.


And yet Isaac of Ninevah is an Orthodox saint.
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« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2011, 11:03:43 PM »

And yet Isaac of Ninevah is an Orthodox saint.

But he didn't originate from within post-schism Roman Cathlicism.
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« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2011, 11:36:57 PM »

But he did originate from within post-schism ACOE. Having been a bishop, I think we can justifiably conclude that he personally held a Nestorian Christology, as well.
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« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2011, 11:52:05 PM »

We have this at my church, right next to the prothesis altar.

From another thread:
This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

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주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
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« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2011, 12:01:20 AM »

Why? Does your parish have a lot of Mexicans or Mexican-Americans in it? (Again, I'm not really understanding why other people would venerate it, in addition to not understanding why any Orthodox person would venerate it.)
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« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2011, 12:34:56 AM »

We have this at my church, right next to the prothesis altar.

From another thread:
This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.


More's the pity.  Sad Sad Sad Still doesn't make the image any more Orthodox.
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« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2011, 02:14:12 AM »

Maybe the Serpent they're talking about is Quetzalcoatl?


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« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2011, 02:23:19 AM »

We have this at my church, right next to the prothesis altar.

Does it feel like syncretism to you?
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« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2011, 02:37:02 AM »

We have this at my church, right next to the prothesis altar.

Does it feel like syncretism to you?

It should.
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« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2011, 03:25:10 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I would say that there is probably no city in this world more so dedicated to the Virgin Mary then Los Angeles, shrines and murals to La Virgen de Guadalupe saturate practically every corner store, blank wall, and front yard altar across every square inch of this town, from the Valley southbound to the South Bay, from Long Beach northbound to East L.A., Our Lady is everywhere in this city, steadily reminding people by Her apparition that Our Lord is with us, that Her prayers are with us, that God is real.  This is a crazy city, and if it weren't for Our Lady, many more of us might come up dead or missing than already occurs.  Like Bob Marley sang, "the youth them live it big today tomorrow buried in a casket.."


One thing that continually keeps me going any given day in this city is to walk around and see Our Lady plastered everywhere.  Further, it legitimizes the entire Chicano/Mexican experience, gives an outlook for indigenous expression of faith, and is a true miracle.  If folks don't want to accept that Our Lady made a relationship with Mexico because it is a Roman Catholic doctrine, that is fine and they are free to assume such, however we here in Los Angeles and Mexico understand from the depths of our hearts the reality of this vision.  We in the Ethiopian Tradition also have a similar story and relationship with Our Lady, known as the Kidane Mehret, which is the Covenant of Mercy, and we can then relate readily to the Mexican situation.  Brown and black folks are part of the Church too, and apparitions and visions of Our Lady are not exclusive to Eastern Europe Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2011, 03:30:24 PM »



A challenge for LBK:

What is NOT wrong with the above?

//:=)
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« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2011, 03:57:42 PM »

(raising hand) OO mee!! Pick me!!!

Things that aren't wrong:

1. St. Mary is in Heaven
2. She is praying
3. The Cross behind her symbolizes Christianity

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« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2011, 04:22:12 PM »

(raising hand) OO mee!! Pick me!!!

Shrewdly played . . .
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« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2011, 04:55:56 PM »

"Getting to know the priest and people" is completely beside the point. Celebrating heterodox feasts in an Orthodox church cannot be justified in any way. Iconography and hymnography are the most accessible and visible expressions of Orthodox doctrine and theology. They are not playthings to be used in pandering to sectional interests, no matter how "noble" the cause.  Angry Angry

I agree 100% with LBK.  Giving credence to these non-Orthodox theology, within the wall of Orthodox churches is a huge mistake.



Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

I mean, since we're getting rid of non-Orthodox practices, we might as well clean house. Right?

Or are we just going to get rid of the ones that don't suit our tastes?

I'm not trying to pick on you Lyza, but let's all be honest with ourselves here, are any of our parishes in full 100% compliance with Orthodox theology? I can think of at least ten things that go on in my parish that aren't in compliance with Orthodox theology, and the Bishops know about it.

There is currently a thread on this forum entitled "Cafeteria Catholics."

Pot meet kettle.
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« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2011, 05:01:39 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
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« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2011, 09:32:04 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?
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« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2011, 09:54:06 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
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« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2011, 09:58:38 PM »



A challenge for LBK:

What is NOT wrong with the above?

//:=)

Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

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« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2011, 10:01:15 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
Oh I quite agree, that's madness.

I guess I thought you were the same "down with all things remotely pagan" approach which some in here thought. Disregard my lack of posting aim  laugh
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« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2011, 10:06:39 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
Oh I quite agree, that's madness.

I guess I thought you were the same "down with all things remotely pagan" approach which some in here thought. Disregard my lack of posting aim  laugh

I'm not one of those that insists we burn all Christmas trees, but the scenario I've described seems pretty obscene, doesn't it?

I'd love to know what happened on that morning I was hungover. They probably installed a statue of Athena on the solea and garlanded it with olive leaves and encircled it, dancing the kalamatiano.

To be fair, it was probably an ordinary Liturgy which I missed due to my own sinful tendencies but, as far as I know, three out of four Liturgies this month involved the Greek flag. Something's not right.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 10:08:29 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2011, 10:15:27 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
Oh I quite agree, that's madness.

I guess I thought you were the same "down with all things remotely pagan" approach which some in here thought. Disregard my lack of posting aim  laugh

I'm not one of those that insists we burn all Christmas trees, but the scenario I've described seems pretty obscene, doesn't it?

I'd love to know what happened on that morning I was hungover. They probably installed a statue of Athena on the solea and garlanded it with olive leaves and encircled it, dancing the kalamatiano.

To be fair, it was probably an ordinary Liturgy which I missed due to my own sinful tendencies but, as far as I know, three out of four Liturgies this month involved the Greek flag. Something's not right.
Neh, it sure is.

But from what I've seen, having the Virgin of Guadalupe everywhere is a lot milder in terms of nationalism, though (imo it's the least objectionable thing about Latino popular piety. At least they aren't making icons of Santa Meurte).
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« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2011, 10:18:05 PM »

[...](imo it's the least objectionable thing about Latino popular piety. At least they aren't making icons of Santa Meurte).

I'm with you on both counts, from my ignorant Australian vantage point.
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« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2011, 10:23:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



 Brown and black folks are part of the Church too, and apparitions and visions of Our Lady are not exclusive to Eastern Europe Wink

LOL. I notice that everyone in the pictures are white.
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« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2011, 10:41:45 PM »

Ugh...let's not start THAT again, please, ya Isa...  Roll Eyes

And, Volnutt, I don't know if I'd call that Santa Muerte crap "popular piety"...popular with drug dealers and sicarios, sure, but normal people wouldn't be caught dead with that stuff around them. (Granted they'd still go to curanderas, celebrate the day of the dead, etc. but that's more general folklore and superstition than anything to do with their professed religion, not much different in that way than the "evil eye" that is so prevalent among Mediterranean people and people connected to those cultures.)
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« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2011, 12:14:43 AM »

Quote
Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

Oh, I've seen worse than this, Iconodule.  laugh You oughta see my schlock file, which is, sadly, growing. The recent work of a certain EO priest is particularly disturbing, not least because he oughta know better.  Angry

But it remains that the OO do not recognise any of the Ecumenical Councils past the Third, which seems to me to be why much of their iconography resembles western religious art so strongly.
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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2011, 12:23:59 AM »

Quote
Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

Oh, I've seen worse than this, Iconodule.  laugh You oughta see my schlock file, which is, sadly, growing. The recent work of a certain EO priest is particularly disturbing, not least because he oughta know better.  Angry

But it remains that the OO do not recognise any of the Ecumenical Councils past the Third, which seems to me to be why much of their iconography resembles western religious art so strongly.
?
What of their iconography resembles Western religious art is the same reason why much of our iconography resembles Western religious art.
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« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2011, 12:28:49 AM »

From another thread:
This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.


Since an old post of mine has been re-posted, I thought I should reply...

According to information posted on another forum, the icon was painted by an Orthodox monk  by the name of Fr. Nathaniel from Ohio of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. I am assuming it is the late Fr. Nathaniel from St. Gregory Palamas Greek Orthodox monastery in Akron, Ohio.

The icon was available for purchase from the catalogs published by the now closed Christ of the Hills Monastery in Blanco, Texas.

As for the troparion and kontakion, these were composed and posted online by a one Bishop Basil of the Life-Giving Fountain Orthodox Mission, a non-canonical Orthodox community.

In addition to the troparion and kontakion composed by the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia mentioned by Deacon Lance, the Ukrainian Catholic monks of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Ukiah, CA also composed their own office for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe which they celebrate at their monastery:

TROPAR (TONE 1)

O Holy Lady, Virgin of Guadalupe, Mystical Rose and Queen of America,/you came to bring the peace of Jesus and to take our cares into your loving Heart./ Therefore we venerate your glorious image/ as a sign from God Himself/ that you protect us and pray for our souls.

KONDAK (TONE 4)

O Virgin Mother, your mantle covers all the Americas/ and your miraculous image proclaims the glory of God./ Make our wintery hearts blossom with roses of repentance and love,/ and allow us to place them in the crossing of your arms/, that you may carry them to Christ our God/ and beseech Him to grant us His great mercy.

If I remember correctly, the monks of Holy Resurrection Romanian Catholic Monastery in now Saint Nazianz, WI composed an office for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe when they were still under the then Eparchy of Van Nuys.
Here is video of the monks celebrating their First Vigil Service at their new monastery in Saint Nazianz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWFoy0J-G5M&feature=youtube_gdata_player  
At minute 1:06, you will see an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe enshrined in their chapel.
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« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2011, 01:37:46 AM »

Ugh...let's not start THAT again, please, ya Isa...  Roll Eyes

And, Volnutt, I don't know if I'd call that Santa Muerte crap "popular piety"...popular with drug dealers and sicarios, sure, but normal people wouldn't be caught dead with that stuff around them. (Granted they'd still go to curanderas, celebrate the day of the dead, etc. but that's more general folklore and superstition than anything to do with their professed religion, not much different in that way than the "evil eye" that is so prevalent among Mediterranean people and people connected to those cultures.)
That's good to know  Smiley
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« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2011, 01:41:41 AM »

But he did originate from within post-schism ACOE. Having been a bishop, I think we can justifiably conclude that he personally held a Nestorian Christology, as well.

St. Isaac was a bishop for a very short period before leaving that position under mysterious circumstances and living in relative obscurity. Neither he nor his writings were particularly esteemed in the COE in his time period, and were primarily disseminated by Eastern Orthodox. Nothing in his writings indicates a Nestorian position (don't believe me, check with the Oriental Orthodox who generally find St. Isaac's writings quite edifying--and far less problematic than St. Leo's Tome or the definition of Chalcedon).

My point being that far too little is actually known about St. Isaac to make him (as opposed to his actual writings) the cornerstone of any strongly made argument. At best, he's the exception that proves the rule if over the course of 2000 years the only example you can find is a man who was not on good terms with his local hierarch and live the majority of his adult life as a hermit.
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« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2011, 01:48:25 AM »

But he did originate from within post-schism ACOE. Having been a bishop, I think we can justifiably conclude that he personally held a Nestorian Christology, as well.

St. Isaac was a bishop for a very short period before leaving that position under mysterious circumstances and living in relative obscurity. Neither he nor his writings were particularly esteemed in the COE in his time period, and were primarily disseminated by Eastern Orthodox. Nothing in his writings indicates a Nestorian position (don't believe me, check with the Oriental Orthodox who generally find St. Isaac's writings quite edifying--and far less problematic than St. Leo's Tome or the definition of Chalcedon).

My point being that far too little is actually known about St. Isaac to make him (as opposed to his actual writings) the cornerstone of any strongly made argument. At best, he's the exception that proves the rule if over the course of 2000 years the only example you can find is a man who was not on good terms with his local hierarch and live the majority of his adult life as a hermit.
Fair enough I guess.
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« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2011, 10:22:41 AM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
Oh I quite agree, that's madness.

I guess I thought you were the same "down with all things remotely pagan" approach which some in here thought. Disregard my lack of posting aim  laugh

I'm not one of those that insists we burn all Christmas trees, but the scenario I've described seems pretty obscene, doesn't it?

I'd love to know what happened on that morning I was hungover. They probably installed a statue of Athena on the solea and garlanded it with olive leaves and encircled it, dancing the kalamatiano.

To be fair, it was probably an ordinary Liturgy which I missed due to my own sinful tendencies but, as far as I know, three out of four Liturgies this month involved the Greek flag. Something's not right.
Neh, it sure is.

But from what I've seen, having the Virgin of Guadalupe everywhere is a lot milder in terms of nationalism, though (imo it's the least objectionable thing about Latino popular piety. At least they aren't making icons of Santa Meurte).
santa meurte is not part of popular Catholic Piety in Mexico. Its a devotion to evil and absolute human freedom for those who reject the message of Christianity. It's considered the polar opposite altnernative to Catholicism for drug lords, gang members, etc.
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« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2011, 10:22:41 AM »

Actually, if you ever look closely a picture of the Virgin de Guadalupe, she is not white, but rather native of Mexico. Our Lady appeared to the indigenous peoples in their own color.
BTW,  I love our Lady of Guadalupe. She gives me hope that there can be an end to abortion. She helped bring an end to the human sacrifices of Mexico, why can she not help to bring an end to America's own holocausts.
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« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2011, 02:55:46 PM »

Quote
Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

Oh, I've seen worse than this, Iconodule.  laugh You oughta see my schlock file, which is, sadly, growing. The recent work of a certain EO priest is particularly disturbing, not least because he oughta know better.  Angry

But it remains that the OO do not recognise any of the Ecumenical Councils past the Third, which seems to me to be why much of their iconography resembles western religious art so strongly.

Well, I guess its a good thing the Russian Church follows the 7th council...

http://www.barakatgallery.com/store/index.cfm/FuseAction/ItemDetails/cmdNextItem/9347/ItemID/9347/SubCatID/175/userid/0.htm
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« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2011, 05:43:57 PM »

Quote
Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

Oh, I've seen worse than this, Iconodule.  laugh You oughta see my schlock file, which is, sadly, growing. The recent work of a certain EO priest is particularly disturbing, not least because he oughta know better.  Angry

But it remains that the OO do not recognise any of the Ecumenical Councils past the Third, which seems to me to be why much of their iconography resembles western religious art so strongly.

Well, I guess its a good thing the Russian Church follows the 7th council...

http://www.barakatgallery.com/store/index.cfm/FuseAction/ItemDetails/cmdNextItem/9347/ItemID/9347/SubCatID/175/userid/0.htm

Indeed it does:

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« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2011, 08:56:48 AM »

LBK, your picture doesn't show up. Regardless, my point still stands. "Youz guyz" mock a Ethiopian Icon and try to blame it on the fact that we don't accept your 7th council. I then posted a link to a Russian Icon showing the exact same thing.  Maybe you can discuss what's wrong with that icon instead.

I guess I should start putting in a folder every Byzantine Icon showing God the Father as a man, St. John the Baptist as a martyr, the Holy Theotokos on Christ's left side, etc. and use it as proof of your heterodoxy for not following the decisions of the Coptic Synod.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2011, 09:05:23 AM »

LBK, your picture doesn't show up.

Here 'tis.  Wink (Though I can still see it in the earlier post  Huh)

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« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2011, 09:13:09 AM »

Quote
Maybe you can discuss what's wrong with that icon instead.

I already have, on several threads over the years. You would do well to search them out.

Quote
St. John the Baptist as a martyr, the Holy Theotokos on Christ's left side, etc.

St John the Baptist was indeed a martyr. The feast of the Beheading of the Forerunner is important enough for the Church to designate it a strict fasting day, much like the Exaltation of the Cross on September 14. As for the Mother of God and which side the Christ-child is in relation to her, there are no prohibitions on whether she holds Him on her left or her right side.
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« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2011, 09:14:08 AM »

It still doesn't show up, no problem. From the properties, its Rublev's Holy Trinity, a most sublime icon BTW.  But
My comment was regarding the Holy Theotokos being crowned in HabteSelassie's post and my point still stands.
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