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Author Topic: Virgen de Guadalupe (and other appiritions) in WRO  (Read 20548 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 05, 2011, 11:05:45 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 11:37:19 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 11:47:00 PM »

I believe that in the OCA cathedral's nave in Mexico City there is a fresco of this apparition painted in with all of the Orthodox iconography.
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 05:03:22 AM »

(but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such)

How would it be different?
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 05:44:56 AM »

From another thread:
This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 10:50:45 PM »

Does anyone sell that Icon anymore? 
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2011, 10:57:34 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2011, 11:07:41 PM »

Quote
I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

There is no feast to this image in any Orthodox calendar I have on hand or have encountered; the troparia and kontakia must be of Eastern Catholic origin.
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 11:11:57 PM »

Quote
I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

There is no feast to this image in any Orthodox calendar I have on hand or have encountered; the troparia and kontakia must be of Eastern Catholic origin.

Forgive me, but it seems to me they are also of little poetic quality.
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2011, 11:16:24 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_of_Guadalupe

Quote
According to the account of Juan Diego, the Virgin Mary described herself using the Aztec Nahuatl word-name of Coatlaxopeuh (pronounced "quatlachupe") which the Spanish misunderstood as being the word "Guadalupe". In Nahuatl "Coa" meant serpent, "tla" the noun ending which can be interpreted as "the", and "xopeuh" means to crush or to stamp out, translating to mean: the one "who crushes the serpent,"

...

This reflects Catholic theology, in understanding that Mary is the woman described in the twelfth chapter of St. John's Apocalypse.
Yes, it definitely looks like we have an apparition endorsing false doctrine ("I am the Immaculate Conception," anyone?)
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2011, 11:26:29 PM »

Quote
I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

There is no feast to this image in any Orthodox calendar I have on hand or have encountered; the troparia and kontakia must be of Eastern Catholic origin.

As far as I know my Metropolia is the only Eastern Catholic Church that has officially added the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe to the calendar and composed hymns for it.  The above are not from the Byzantine Catholic Church.

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/MenaionDecember
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 11:28:23 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
It does, but I'm not sure if this wasn't added by the Vatican's devout, just like the image of the moon etc. on the tilme are additions added on (perhaps to make it into the woman of Revelation):they are not part of the original image.
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2011, 11:32:12 PM »

Quote
The above are not from the Byzantine Catholic Church.

I can assure you they are not part of Orthodox hymnography, either.
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2011, 11:53:29 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
It does, but I'm not sure if this wasn't added by the Vatican's devout, just like the image of the moon etc. on the tilme are additions added on (perhaps to make it into the woman of Revelation):they are not part of the original image.
But the word Guadalupe itself means, "She who has vanquished the Serpent." Unless you go with Gloria Anzaldua's syncretic translation- "Queen of the Serpents."
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2011, 12:19:58 AM »

This icon is now available from Greece...

http://www.autom.com/autom/Over-600-New-Items_1614710/Icons_1625900/Item_Our-Lady-of-Guadalupe-Icon_1559833.htm

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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 12:33:32 AM »


And so are "icons" of God the Father as an old man, the notorious "ark of salvation" picture, and any number of other images which are contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Their mere presence in a bookstore inventory does not confer canonicity upon them.
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2011, 12:37:04 AM »


And so are "icons" of God the Father as an old man, the notorious "ark of salvation" picture, and any number of other images which are contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Their mere presence in a bookstore inventory does not confer canonicity upon them.
It looks Turkish to me.
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 12:41:08 AM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
It does, but I'm not sure if this wasn't added by the Vatican's devout, just like the image of the moon etc. on the tilme are additions added on (perhaps to make it into the woman of Revelation):they are not part of the original image.
But the word Guadalupe itself means, "She who has vanquished the Serpent." Unless you go with Gloria Anzaldua's syncretic translation- "Queen of the Serpents."
Guadalupe means "Valley of the Wolf," a Arabic-Latin hybrid naming a town in central Spain.  The earliest account of Juan Diego are over a century after the event, and I don't know if this "Coatlaxopeuh" is part of the original story, or embellished, like the image, later to fit the Vatican's Marian expectations.
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2011, 12:49:02 AM »

My suspicions have been confirmed: the website to which Fr Giryus linked is Roman Catholic. The wares available in the icon section include an "icon" of the "Holy Family" (with St Joseph embracing the Mother of God - a definite no-no), and an image of the Nativity which is simply a neo-Byzantine rendering of western imagery, devoid of Orthodox doctrine and theology of the feast. Both images are quite unsuitable as Orthodox icons.
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2011, 12:49:46 AM »

How silly!  Everything you get from a Greek bookstore is perfect!  Just like everything you read in a book is absolutely true!   Cheesy


And so are "icons" of God the Father as an old man, the notorious "ark of salvation" picture, and any number of other images which are contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Their mere presence in a bookstore inventory does not confer canonicity upon them.
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2011, 01:25:39 AM »

I don't know why la virgen de Guadalupe would be found in any WRO parish. It's a symbol of Mexican folklore/nationalism/mythos just as much (or more so) than "western Christian" heritage. Last time I checked, most WRO parishes weren't very heavily populated with Mexicans. Most of the Orthodox churches in Mexico proper are solidly Byzantine (with the exception of the Coptic church in Morelos, of course). So who would want it there? Who would venerate it? Nobody. It has no connection to any part of the Orthodox faith.

Aside: Strangely, "Guadalupe" is about the only "wadi" derived term I couldn't find in Weston's "Remains of Arabic in the Spanish and Portuguese Languages" (1810), which lists all kinds of things I didn't even know about (not being an expert in Spanish geography or Arabic, after all), e.g., Guadazelete from wadi zallat, which the author translates as "river of prayers" as zellat ("errors") beget prayers. I really, really doubt that explanation, as it seems more likely that the Spanish pronunciation would have converted the emphatic S in "sallat" (prayers) to Z, as they did with the emphatic D elsewhere. Anyway...only one place name is recorded to have the mixed Arabic-Latin of "Guadalupe" -- "Guadalethe", which attaches wadi to the Roman name ("Lethes") for a river in Andalusia.


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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2011, 02:52:43 AM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2011, 03:19:34 AM »

Yeah, really.
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2011, 03:44:14 AM »

Guadalupe means "Valley of the Wolf," a Arabic-Latin hybrid naming a town in central Spain. 
Oh, you're right! I should have known better. I'd heard that before *facepalm*
The earliest account of Juan Diego are over a century after the event, and I don't know if this "Coatlaxopeuh" is part of the original story, or embellished, like the image, later to fit the Vatican's Marian expectations.
I see.
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 04:43:58 AM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

I wouldn't find it disappointing. I'd find it outrageous and unacceptable.
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 10:00:24 AM »

I don't know why la virgen de Guadalupe would be found in any WRO parish. It's a symbol of Mexican folklore/nationalism/mythos just as much (or more so) than "western Christian" heritage. Last time I checked, most WRO parishes weren't very heavily populated with Mexicans. Most of the Orthodox churches in Mexico proper are solidly Byzantine (with the exception of the Coptic church in Morelos, of course). So who would want it there? Who would venerate it? Nobody. It has no connection to any part of the Orthodox faith.

Aside: Strangely, "Guadalupe" is about the only "wadi" derived term I couldn't find in Weston's "Remains of Arabic in the Spanish and Portuguese Languages" (1810), which lists all kinds of things I didn't even know about (not being an expert in Spanish geography or Arabic, after all), e.g., Guadazelete from wadi zallat, which the author translates as "river of prayers" as zellat ("errors") beget prayers. I really, really doubt that explanation, as it seems more likely that the Spanish pronunciation would have converted the emphatic S in "sallat" (prayers) to Z, as they did with the emphatic D elsewhere. Anyway...only one place name is recorded to have the mixed Arabic-Latin of "Guadalupe" -- "Guadalethe", which attaches wadi to the Roman name ("Lethes") for a river in Andalusia.



Did it have my favorite Guadalajara "river of s*/t"?
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2011, 11:28:03 AM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

I wouldn't find it disappointing. I'd find it outrageous and unacceptable.
I know I've never heard wind of the WRO accepting post scism apparitions.
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2011, 11:32:24 AM »


Did it have my favorite Guadalajara "river of s*/t"?

Wadi el khara... Oh, that's hilarious! I never knew that.
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2011, 11:50:34 AM »

It's depicted in the new Antiochian Orthodox Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul in Mexico:



As well as in the Antiochian Orthodox Monastery of St. Anthony the Great:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2249351542/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2261240877/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2011, 01:36:17 PM »

Did it have my favorite Guadalajara "river of s*/t"?

Yes, actually, but mistranslated as "river of stones". I don't know if this was on purpose or not (maybe the correct translation would have been too scandalous in 1810). Neither the handwritten Arabic nor the transliteration provided match "el hajara" (though they don't match each other, either: el khara vs. lchara...where in the Arab world is ch a transliteration for kh? Maybe among the Jews?)
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2011, 01:53:05 PM »

It's depicted in the new Antiochian Orthodox Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul in Mexico:



As well as in the Antiochian Orthodox Monastery of St. Anthony the Great:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2249351542/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2261240877/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/

Most probably that is an attempt to "fit in" to their local neighborhood.  It doesn't make it "right". 

Orthodoxy shouldn't change to fit in, we need to change to fit in with Orthodoxy!
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2011, 02:39:53 PM »

Actually, Guadelajara does come from wadi el-hajara (Rock River), and not from the modern Arabic expletive (though I have seen Arabs crack up when the Greek word for "joy" is used in church services).

The reason it can't be from khara is that it's guadi-el-ajara. So, the "a" at the beginning of the second part has to be explained. In the transition from Mozarabic to Early Modern Spanish, both the sounds حand  خ gets dropped completely or turned into silent h's, not turned into j's. For example, the خ in مخدة  becomes a silent h in almohada. The Spanish "j" only came to be pronounced as a "kh" sometime after the 15th century. We know this because in Ladino (Judeo-Spanish) it is pronounced like an English "j". Thus it makes more sense for وادي الحجرة to become Guadelajara than for the obscene option, which would probably become something like Guadelare or Guadelari (due to imala in the final vowel).
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2011, 03:22:30 PM »

That sounds plausible, Samn, but there are some things that don't really follow that pattern, such as kh and H turning into f in words like alfayata (from khiaTut) and alfalfa (from Helfa). What's the deal? They're not deleted or turned into silent H's.

I don't really know anything about Spanish historical linguistics, so I'm not claiming you're wrong, just wondering.
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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2011, 03:58:18 PM »

Okay, so I looked up reflexes of Arabic [kh] in Federico Corriente's (Google-Bookable!) Dictionary of Arabic and allied loanwords: Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Galician and kindred dialects, p. xxxix. The most common thing is to simply lose the sound or write it as 'h'. It also sometimes shows up as 'c' or 'g' and 'f', the latter of which often still winds up becoming an h later on, as f and h merge in certain positions in Castillian and become unpronounced.

According to Corriente's discussion of the term, alfalfa probably comes from al-fasfasa, though....

For our purposes discussing Guadelajara, my point still stands, since there are still no cases of an Andalusi Arabic kh showing up as 'j' in Spanish. The Arabic loanwords into Spanish that use 'j' for [kh] are all modern.
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2011, 04:14:59 PM »

Alright. I have a little bit of Corriente's stuff. I'll have to find it and look it up, as I'm sure it's in there. It's definitely much more reliable than Weston (which I chose because I have it in PDF and it's a lot easier to digest, since it's in dictionary format).

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« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2011, 05:06:33 PM »

I believe that in the OCA cathedral's nave in Mexico City there is a fresco of this apparition painted in with all of the Orthodox iconography.

I saw one at Project Mexico, but it was quite different than the usual RC image. According to the Orthodox in Mexico I talked with, the usual Guadalupe has on it symbolism which is syncretistic, added later by a priest to try and win Aztecs over. The Orthodox image is much simpler.
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« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2011, 05:09:54 PM »

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The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.
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« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2011, 05:12:32 PM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

It depends on the feast and the interpretation given to it.
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« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2011, 05:13:16 PM »

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The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

I meant the one I saw in an Orthodox church. I don't know if it's still there. I didn't mean to apply to it Official Orthodox Status.
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« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2011, 05:13:59 PM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

It depends on the feast and the interpretation given to it.

What feast? There is no Orthodox feast associated with this image.
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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2011, 05:18:36 PM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

It depends on the feast and the interpretation given to it.

What feast? There is no Orthodox feast associated with this image.

Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.
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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2011, 05:23:31 PM »

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Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.

Are you sure on that? I sincerely hope you're mistaken. Celebrating non-Orthodox feasts sounds like the sort of syncretistic nonsense seen at New Skete .....  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2011, 05:42:21 PM »

Quote
Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.

Are you sure on that? I sincerely hope you're mistaken. Celebrating non-Orthodox feasts sounds like the sort of syncretistic nonsense seen at New Skete .....  Roll Eyes

Some WRO churches do Sacred Heart and Blessed Sacrament feasts, in ways a bit different than done by Roman Catholics. Some do not. Even in the Antiochian Archdiocese there is variation.
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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2011, 05:53:00 PM »

Quote
Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.

Are you sure on that? I sincerely hope you're mistaken. Celebrating non-Orthodox feasts sounds like the sort of syncretistic nonsense seen at New Skete .....  Roll Eyes

Some WRO churches do Sacred Heart and Blessed Sacrament feasts, in ways a bit different than done by Roman Catholics. Some do not. Even in the Antiochian Archdiocese there is variation.

The fact that they are being done in any form is cause for alarm, and must be dealt with. What next, celebrating the Immaculate Conception?
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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2011, 06:11:36 PM »

Quote
Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.

Are you sure on that? I sincerely hope you're mistaken. Celebrating non-Orthodox feasts sounds like the sort of syncretistic nonsense seen at New Skete .....  Roll Eyes

Some WRO churches do Sacred Heart and Blessed Sacrament feasts, in ways a bit different than done by Roman Catholics. Some do not. Even in the Antiochian Archdiocese there is variation.

The fact that they are being done in any form is cause for alarm, and must be dealt with. What next, celebrating the Immaculate Conception?

It's not like there are secret things being done without the knowledge of bishops. I find that if one actually attends several WRO churches and gets to know WRO priests and people well there will be less cause for alarm. It's not like they're a papist fifth column--any more so than their ERO counterparts.
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