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Author Topic: Virgen de Guadalupe (and other appiritions) in WRO  (Read 18128 times) Average Rating: 0
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LBK
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« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2011, 09:20:25 AM »

It still doesn't show up, no problem. From the properties, its Rublev's Holy Trinity, a most sublime icon BTW.  But
My comment was regarding the Holy Theotokos being crowned in HabteSelassie's post and my point still stands.

The Mother of God being crowned in the Coptic image is not of Orthodox origin, but derived from non-Orthodox religious art, which expresses much which is incompatible with Orthodox doctrine and theology. The presence of God the Father as a bearded old man is but one reason it falls well short of being an icon.
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« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2011, 09:20:56 AM »

Quote
Maybe you can discuss what's wrong with that icon instead.

I already have, on several threads over the years. You may wish to search them out.


Then +1 for your consistency. I stand corrected.

St. John the Baptist as a martyr, the Holy Theotokos on Christ's left side, etc.

St John the Baptist was indeed a martyr. The feast of the Beheading of the Forerunner is important enough for the Church to designate it a strict fasting day, much like the Exaltation of the Cross on September 14. As for the Mother of God and which side the Christ-child is in relation to her, there are no prohibitions on whether she holds Him on her left or her right side.


But since its forbidden in my Church then clearly your Church is wrong...(yes, I'm being sarcastic)
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« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2011, 09:23:52 AM »

It still doesn't show up, no problem. From the properties, its Rublev's Holy Trinity, a most sublime icon BTW.  But
My comment was regarding the Holy Theotokos being crowned in HabteSelassie's post and my point still stands.

The Mother of God being crowned in the Coptic image is not of Orthodox origin, but derived from non-Orthodox religious art, which expresses much which is incompatible with Orthodox doctrine and theology. The presence of God the Father as a bearded old man is but one reason it falls well short of being an icon.

But there are a very great number of Byzantine Icons with God the Father as an old man. The OCA Church I used to visit had a huge fresco of it.
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"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

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« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2011, 09:34:50 AM »

It still doesn't show up, no problem. From the properties, its Rublev's Holy Trinity, a most sublime icon BTW.  But
My comment was regarding the Holy Theotokos being crowned in HabteSelassie's post and my point still stands.

The Mother of God being crowned in the Coptic image is not of Orthodox origin, but derived from non-Orthodox religious art, which expresses much which is incompatible with Orthodox doctrine and theology. The presence of God the Father as a bearded old man is but one reason it falls well short of being an icon.

But there are a very great number of Byzantine Icons with God the Father as an old man. The OCA Church I used to visit had a huge fresco of it.

Just because they exist doesn't mean they're correct. The prohibition on showing God the Father as an old man goes back at least as far as the time of St John Damascus, and has been dealt with at various councils over the centuries, and in his authoritative treatise In Defense of the Holy Images. Yet, people continued to paint such images, either out of honest ignorance (very much the case in times past), or for reasons best known to themselves. The same goes for other uncanonical images such as Holy Silence, Holy Wisdom, and others. I have commented on these as well in other threads.


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« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2011, 09:37:29 AM »

LBK, I'll definitely read through your older posts. I'm sorry for my initital response being so defensive.
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« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2011, 09:39:37 AM »

LBK, I'll definitely read through your older posts. I'm sorry for my initital response being so defensive.

No problem. Happy to help.  Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2011, 01:39:19 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I would say that there is probably no city in this world more so dedicated to the Virgin Mary then Los Angeles, shrines and murals to La Virgen de Guadalupe saturate practically every corner store, blank wall, and front yard altar across every square inch of this town, from the Valley southbound to the South Bay, from Long Beach northbound to East L.A., Our Lady is everywhere in this city, steadily reminding people by Her apparition that Our Lord is with us, that Her prayers are with us, that God is real.  This is a crazy city, and if it weren't for Our Lady, many more of us might come up dead or missing than already occurs.  Like Bob Marley sang, "the youth them live it big today tomorrow buried in a casket.."


One thing that continually keeps me going any given day in this city is to walk around and see Our Lady plastered everywhere.  Further, it legitimizes the entire Chicano/Mexican experience, gives an outlook for indigenous expression of faith, and is a true miracle.  If folks don't want to accept that Our Lady made a relationship with Mexico because it is a Roman Catholic doctrine, that is fine and they are free to assume such, however we here in Los Angeles and Mexico understand from the depths of our hearts the reality of this vision.  We in the Ethiopian Tradition also have a similar story and relationship with Our Lady, known as the Kidane Mehret, which is the Covenant of Mercy, and we can then relate readily to the Mexican situation.  Brown and black folks are part of the Church too, and apparitions and visions of Our Lady are not exclusive to Eastern Europe Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Could you tell me a bit more about the similar story in Ethiopian tradition? I just got an Ethiopian icon which looks a lot like the Virgin if Guadalupe story and I was wondering what the background of the image in an Ethiopian context is.
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« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2011, 03:37:51 AM »

You know I'm not Mexican Roman Catholic, and don't have any veneration to this image Per Se, but even the Russian Orthodox have non Byzantine Style Icons i.e. "western influence " and they are miracle working icons and are "Orthodox". I think its disingenuous to call the Image in question "syncretic" considering this... You know God can take whatever he likes as far as matter goes and do with it that he wills. My only issue  is despite this, is that with a lot of religious images that have attained some kind of national symbolism for the people who venerate them ,is an unhealthy cult of superstition around those images which lead to heretical thinking. I would not be hasty with my judgement regarding a holy image.
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« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2011, 04:53:10 AM »

You know I'm not Mexican Roman Catholic, and don't have any veneration to this image Per Se, but even the Russian Orthodox have non Byzantine Style Icons i.e. "western influence " and they are miracle working icons and are "Orthodox". I think its disingenuous to call the Image in question "syncretic" considering this... You know God can take whatever he likes as far as matter goes and do with it that he wills. My only issue  is despite this, is that with a lot of religious images that have attained some kind of national symbolism for the people who venerate them ,is an unhealthy cult of superstition around those images which lead to heretical thinking. I would not be hasty with my judgement regarding a holy image.
I don't think anyone is saying God cannot use these things even to work miracles. They're only saying the fact that God in His impenetrable sovereignty choses to us them for some purpose does not justify the way in which they were made nor does it justify their reproduction.
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« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2011, 05:29:38 AM »

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I don't think anyone is saying God cannot use these things even to work miracles. They're only saying the fact that God in His impenetrable sovereignty choses to us them for some purpose does not justify the way in which they were made nor does it justify their reproduction.

Or, to put it another way: God can choose to reveal His grace through imperfect vessels. But it is also our responsibility to "get right with God", be it ourselves as believers, or iconographers painting proper canonical icons, or priests and bishops rejecting the inclusion of images not reflecting Orthodox doctrine from the iconostases and walls of churches.

I'll say it again: No matter how honorable the intention, the inclusion of the Virgin of Guadelupe on the iconostasis of an Orthodox church, or painted or hung on its walls is a mistake which must be corrected.
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« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2011, 12:29:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
In regards to the Kidane Mehret/Covenant of Mercy here is the Synaxarium entry:

Quote
And on this day also is commemorated our holy Lady Mary, the two-fold Virgin, the God-bearer, for on it He gave her the Covenant of Mercy and she received it from her Son, our Redeemer Jesus Christ, in respect of him that should celebrate her commemoration, or should call upon her name, or give alms to the poor, even if it were only [a cup of] cold water.  And the Son of this Saint Mary after He ascended into heaven, taking her pure flesh [with Him], sat down at the right hand of His Father, having fulfilled every law of the Incarnation, with the sole exception of sin, and overcome the sufferings of the Cross at His own good pleasure and will, which He did for our salvation.  And He left His mother Mary in the house of John, His disciple, so that he might love her, even as He committed him to her, saying, “Behold thy son,” and He said unto that disciple, “Behold thy mother.”  Thereupon our Lady Mary lived [there], and she used to go to the tomb of her Son, that is to say, Golgotha, to pray there.  And when the Jews saw [her] there they were filled with wrath, and envy, and they wished to drive her away; but God hid her from their eyes.  Then they took counsel, and decided to set guards over His tomb, so that she might not come there again and pray, but she did not cease to go there day by day, and the guards did not see her, because the covering of the glory of her Son hid her.  And always angels were coming to minister unto her, and her Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, visited her frequently, and fulfilled for her all her desires.  Some of the angels used to take her up into the heavens and show her the places where the saints rested, with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  And all the souls of the fathers who had died from Adam until that time worshipped her, saying, “Glory be to God, Who hath created thee flesh of our flesh, and bone of our bone.  In thee we have found salvation, and thou hast become for us the haven of life from destruction through the Son of God taking upon Himself flesh through thee.”  And then the angels took her, and brought her to her beloved Son on His throne, and the curtains, which were flames of fire, were drawn aside on the right hand and on the left, and our Lord took her hand, and kissed her mouth, and said unto her, “Hast thou arrived, O my mother?”  And He raised her up on to the throne of His glory, and He seated her by Him, and He described to her all the joy and gladness which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard of, nor heart of man imagined, which were prepared for her.  And beneath the throne of glory she saw David, the King of Israel, her father, (with all the company of the prophets, and the angels, and the souls of the righteous, in a circle,) singing to the harp, saying, “Hearken unto me, my daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear.  Forget thy people and thy father’s house.  The king hath desired thy beauty; he is thy Lord” (Psalm xlv).  And from there the angels took her to show her the place of punishment, and they brought her to the limit of darkness, which is prepared for Satan and his hosts, and for all those who walk in his ways.  And our Lady Mary said, “Woe is me !  Who will describe this place to the children of men, so that they may not come hither?”  And the angel said unto her, “Fear thou not, O Mary, God is with thee, and for thy sake with those who shall come after thee.” And then the angels carried her away and brought her into a certain place, and thereupon our Lady Mary sat down, being exceedingly sorry for all sinners.  And as it might be this day the sixteenth day of the month of Yakatit, she stood on the Place of the Skull (Golgotha), and besought her Son, saying, “O my Son, swear to me by God Thy Father, and by Thy Name of Christ, and [by] the Paraclete, Thy Spirit, and by my womb which carried Thee for nine months and five days, Thee Whom the earth cannot bear up, Thee Whom the angels cannot approach, I adjure Thee, O my Son, by Thy going forth from me without exhaustion, and by Thy delivery which was painless, I adjure Thee by my breasts which suckled Thee, and by my lips which kissed Thee, I adjure Thee by my hands which embraced Thee, and by my feet which walked with Thee, I adjure Thee by the manger wherein Thou didst lie, and by the ragged cloths wherein Thou wast wrapped, O my Son, and Beloved One, I beseech Thee, and entreat Thee, to hearken unto the words of my petition, and to come to me, and to fulfill for me everything which is in my heart.”  And when our holy Lady, the Virgin Mary, the mother of the Light, had spoken thus, our Lord and Redeemer Jesus Christ came down straightway, and there were with Him, surrounding Him, thousands of thousands, and tens of thousands of tens of thousands of angels, and he said unto her, “What shall I do for thee, Mary, My mother?  What desire hast thou that thou wouldst have Me fulfill for thee?”  And our Lady the holy Virgin Mary answered and said unto her beloved Son, “O my Beloved Son, my Lord and Redeemer, my Hope, my Refuge, upon Thee is placed my trust.  Because of Thee I was strong in the womb of my mother, and in the womb which covered Thee, and Thou art my memorial, at all times.  And now do Thou hear my prayer and petition, and hearken unto the word of my mouth which I speak unto Thee.  I Thy mother Mary, I Thine handmaiden, on behalf of him that shall celebrate my commemoration, and him that shall build a church in my name, or shall clothe the naked, or visit the sick, or feed the hungry, or give drink to him that is athirst, or shall comfort the sorrowful, or shall make the sad to rejoice, or shall write the history of my strife, or shall sing a song at my festival; [swear to me] that God shall give him the good reward from Thee, which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard of, nor the heart of man imagined.  I beseech and entreat Thee on behalf of all those who believe in me, to set them free from Sheol, and to remember the hunger, and thirst, and all the trials which came upon me through Thee.”  And our Lord Jesus Christ answered and said unto her, “It shall be unto thee even as thou sayest, and I will fulfill for thee all thy petition; I became incarnate of thee, and I swear that I will not make any covenant with thee to be a lie.”  Salutation to thee, O Book of the Law and Covenant, like the Tables of stone.

Glory be to God Who is glorified in His Saints.  Amen.
http://www.stmichaeleoc.org/Synaxarium/Yekatit_16.htm

Essentially, this Covenant (Literally "Covering" in the Ge'ez/Amharic) is one established with Our Lady for Her intercession on our behalf.  In Ethiopia, this story has evolved in popular piety to take on the connotations of a national epic, and just as the Virgin of Guadalupe is the Patroness Saint of all the Americas, through this Covenant of Mercy the Ethiopian Church acknowledges that Our Lady established a special relationship with our Church to be our Patroness.  Our Lady is the national Patroness of many nations, across Europe, the Slavic regions, the Americas, and parts of Africa I am sure, but especially the Ethiopians. 

I suppose no where outside of Italy, Poland, or Mexico will you find folks more devoted to Our Lady than the Ethiopians, and this is part of the Kidane Mehret tradition.  We feel we have been honored and blessed by Her for a personal and yet national intercession.  Part of this also plays into the Kebra Negast meta-narratives which highlight the blessings Ethiopia has received nationalistically as the caretakers of the Ark of the Covenant, who Our Lady is.  So even before Christianity, Ethiopia had felt a special relationship with God, and this relationship is extended in Christianity by the Kidane Mehret.

Now in regards to the criticisms expressed here by the EO regarding the Iconic images of the Father used in the Ethiopian tradition, such as in the Kidus Selassie or the Kidane Mehret icons, you are free to your opinions, and of course we are all duty bound to respect your traditions, regulations, and prohibitions, however we are not subject to them.  Images of the Father were only explicitly prohibited in later Councils in reaction to the Iconoclasts era, and the Ethiopian jurisdiction separated from the EO centuries before these edicts were issued.  We practice then the Orthodox which we received from the Fathers, and we have no such prohibitions against images of the Father.  We respect the difference of belief, however, we will continue to honor our images of the Father equally with that of the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Saints.  In fact, in EVERY SINGLE Ethiopian parish, centered above the Altar, is either a mural or icon specifically of the Holy Trinity as Father, Son, Holy Spirit, three identical gray-haired and bearded men.  Further, this image is often included in Icons depicted Saint Stephen's execution, the Father is included often in images of Jesus Christ baptism, and of course the Kidane Mehret is also a very prominent image in our parishes.

By the way, the feast day for Our Lady of Guadalupe is December 12, and here in Los Angeles it should be a very festive occasion indeed Smiley
stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2011, 05:23:29 PM »

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I suppose no where outside of Italy, Poland, or Mexico will you find folks more devoted to Our Lady than the Ethiopians,

Try the Greeks or Russians. Indeed, any nationality where Orthodoxy is the norm.
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« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2011, 05:56:22 PM »


I don't think anyone is saying God cannot use these things even to work miracles. They're only saying the fact that God in His impenetrable sovereignty choses to us them for some purpose does not justify the way in which they were made nor does it justify their reproduction.[/quote]

It certainly does. 

"What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy”  Acts 10:15.
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« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2011, 07:19:35 PM »


It certainly does.  

"What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy”  Acts 10:15.
1 Samuel 19:23-24
Quote
So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?"

And compare:

Numbers 21:19
Quote
So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

with

2 Kings 18:4
Quote
He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan)

The bronze serpent is also significant as an example ANE sympathetic magic like with Jacob and the goats of Laban. Just because God used this sort of ritual in a few instances does not mean He'll bless us for performing sympathetic magic today.
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« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2011, 10:40:18 PM »

The Virgin of Guadalupe is an image not made by hands so not an apt comparison. 
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« Reply #105 on: December 08, 2011, 12:04:09 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I would say that there is probably no city in this world more so dedicated to the Virgin Mary then Los Angeles, shrines and murals to La Virgen de Guadalupe saturate practically every corner store, blank wall, and front yard altar across every square inch of this town, from the Valley southbound to the South Bay, from Long Beach northbound to East L.A., Our Lady is everywhere in this city, steadily reminding people by Her apparition that Our Lord is with us, that Her prayers are with us, that God is real.  This is a crazy city, and if it weren't for Our Lady, many more of us might come up dead or missing than already occurs.  Like Bob Marley sang, "the youth them live it big today tomorrow buried in a casket.."


One thing that continually keeps me going any given day in this city is to walk around and see Our Lady plastered everywhere.  Further, it legitimizes the entire Chicano/Mexican experience, gives an outlook for indigenous expression of faith, and is a true miracle.  If folks don't want to accept that Our Lady made a relationship with Mexico because it is a Roman Catholic doctrine, that is fine and they are free to assume such, however we here in Los Angeles and Mexico understand from the depths of our hearts the reality of this vision.  We in the Ethiopian Tradition also have a similar story and relationship with Our Lady, known as the Kidane Mehret, which is the Covenant of Mercy, and we can then relate readily to the Mexican situation.  Brown and black folks are part of the Church too, and apparitions and visions of Our Lady are not exclusive to Eastern Europe Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Thank you, Habte, for pointing this out about Los Angeles.  Whatever its drawbacks are, much of its population is very devoted to the Mother of God.  When you are in the city, you do see her image painted in murals almost everywhere.

This reminds me of a time I had a job in downtown many years ago.  It was an area not far from Olvera Street.  I had to walk a few blocks every day between my workplace and a parking lot, and I recall a very tall mural on the side of a building that I would pass on the way.  It was a huge painting, at least a few stories high, of the Mother of God in the style of the Virgin of Guadalupe.  Her back was to the street, but she looked over her shoulder at the city with large eyes that were both sad and wise.  On her cloak was what I think was the original name of the City of Los Angeles.  Neither my memory, nor my Spanish are that good, but I seem to recall it being something like:  El Pueblo de Neustra Senora La Reina de Los Angeles.  
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« Reply #106 on: December 12, 2011, 01:27:19 AM »

A photo of the recent visit by His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) and his delegation to Archbishop Pierre Christopher, Papal Nuncio to Mexico. They are photographed in front of a copy of the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/pictures/images/12archbpkyrillmexico11_33_jpg.jpg
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« Reply #107 on: December 12, 2011, 02:38:06 AM »

A photo of the recent visit by His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) and his delegation to Archbishop Pierre Christopher, Papal Nuncio to Mexico. They are photographed in front of a copy of the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/pictures/images/12archbpkyrillmexico11_33_jpg.jpg

I would have killed to watch Archbishop Kirill during that visit!   laugh
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« Reply #108 on: December 12, 2011, 08:03:00 AM »

A photo of the recent visit by His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) and his delegation to Archbishop Pierre Christopher, Papal Nuncio to Mexico. They are photographed in front of a copy of the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/pictures/images/12archbpkyrillmexico11_33_jpg.jpg

Your point?
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« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2011, 12:26:53 PM »

A photo of the recent visit by His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) and his delegation to Archbishop Pierre Christopher, Papal Nuncio to Mexico. They are photographed in front of a copy of the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/pictures/images/12archbpkyrillmexico11_33_jpg.jpg

Your point?

Blessed feast day!!! May Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Theotokos of Tepeyac, have you always under her mantle.
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« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2011, 05:12:58 AM »

As a Mexican and Orthodox Christian, I become dissapointed when I see how (almost every year) this topic unmasks the WASP-like chauvinism of some people who take this as a yearly opportunity to show their distate for the Mexican people.

Orthodox Mexican communities are not entirely Byzantine. The Greek-Byzantine tradition is used by the Antiochians (who are almost entirely of Lebanese descent and are a minority among the Lebanese-Arabs of Mexico, who tend to be Maronite or Roman-Catholic) and by the Constantinople Patriarchate (its Diocese has almost vanished from the country, they have only a handful of followers scattered in two or three cities).

Most Orthodox Christians worship according to the Slavonic liturgical tradition and are ethnic-Mexicans. This includes the Mexican Exarchate of the OCA and even the Russian-Patriarchate parish in Nepantla, served by a Mexican priest and whose parishioners consider themselves to be Mexicans of Russian descent who have preserved their Orthodox faith but did not keep the Russian language and culture. The ROCOR tries to serve the Russian inmigrant community and they tend to be more ethnic.

Going back to the topic, most of those who criticize the veneration of this icon, have never investigated about its origin, its history and its miraculous contribution to convert our Natives (who practiced the worst forms of Pagan and devil worship) to Christianity (it isn't our fault that the Spanish-Romanists landed here instead of the Greek-Byzantines!).

It is incredible how someone even intended to relate the "Inmaculate Conception doctrine" of the Romanist Church with "crushing the head of the serpent". The place where the Apparition is said to have taken place, was originally a place of Pagan-worship. "Crushing the head of the serpent" actually means to CRUSH PAGANISM as the Aztecs worshipped the serpent-god.

That comment wasn't only a sign of ignorance but also a gross sign of disrespect.

You should at least try to read the narration of the Apparitions (the Codex Nican Mopohua) and investigate about the meanings of Our Lady's attire, her sayings, the way she introduced herself to the people, the way the stars are positioned, what can be seen in the eyes of the Virgin and the Christ-centered spirit that fills this tradition.

The name "Guadalupe" is not the correct name. It is an adaptation of the nahuatl name imposed by the Spanish clergy who wanted to make this veneration acceptable to the Spanish soldiers of the early period of the conquest who came from Extremadura, where there was a statue of Our Lady whose name is "Guadalupe". That statue does not look like Our Lady of Guadalupe of Mexico. The reason why this topic became a hot issue was related to an interview given by the East-German Communist and former PRI-appointed abbot of Our Lady's Basilica in Mexico City, a wicked man who probably didn't even believe in God.

There is no need to have a feast in our calendar as it's not forbidden to celebrate an Acathist for Our Lady. Most Orthodox Mexicans do not like when someone attempts to bring division among us by using this topic.

Weren't our Natives as worthy of receiving a message from the Mother of God as the Egyptians, the Byzantines, the Russians, etc.? This has nothing to do with Romanism-Modernism being the "True Church" as this is no longer believed by most Christians in Mexico.

Let us not forget that some currently Orthodox areas of Europe were originally Evangelized by Latins (the Gallican traditions survives in some parts of Ardeal, the Albanian coasts, etc.) The Spanish did their best to Christianize our people, despite the flaws and hetherodox interpretations of the Romanist Church. The fact that we received Christianity from the Westerners (who at that time weren't as decadent as they are now) does not mean that the faith cannot be brought to them without attacking all what was done in the past.

If even the Romanists have made clear that believing in the Apparitions is not obligatory for its members, who are we to get involved in that kind of polemics? We are not Protestants, we are not rationalists, we are not polemicists. What we must try is to be Christians and bring the faith to the people of the Americas.
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« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2011, 05:37:54 AM »

Quote
Going back to the topic, most of those who criticize the veneration of this icon, have never investigated about its origin, its history and its miraculous contribution to convert our Natives (who practiced the worst forms of Pagan and devil worship) to Christianity (it isn't our fault that the Spanish-Romanists landed here instead of the Greek-Byzantines!).

The fact remains that this image, and the vision which led to the image, did not arise from Orthodox tradition. It may be part of Mexican popular culture, and venerated by those of Roman Catholic faith, but it cannot be venerated as an Orthodox icon.

And, for the record, there is no WASP in my ancestry.
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« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2011, 03:11:40 PM »

Quote
The fact remains that this image, and the vision which led to the image, did not arise from Orthodox tradition. It may be part of Mexican popular culture, and venerated by those of Roman Catholic faith, but it cannot be venerated as an Orthodox icon.

In your view, what are the qualifications for something to be venerated as an Orthodox icon? Would it be permissible to venerate this?

What about this?
 
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« Reply #113 on: December 14, 2011, 03:35:35 PM »

It is incredible how someone even intended to relate the "Inmaculate Conception doctrine" of the Romanist Church with "crushing the head of the serpent". The place where the Apparition is said to have taken place, was originally a place of Pagan-worship. "Crushing the head of the serpent" actually means to CRUSH PAGANISM as the Aztecs worshipped the serpent-god.

That comment wasn't only a sign of ignorance but also a gross sign of disrespect.
To be fair, the followers of the Vatican themselves make this connection between the IC and the serpent (it is in Ineffibilis Deus, after all).  I point that out as someone who takes great issue with the IC, but has no problem with Guadalupe (particularly the original image:the moon etc, has been painted on top of it).
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« Reply #114 on: December 14, 2011, 03:44:01 PM »

I Believe that The Image of the Virgen de Guadalupe is just another face of one of the many Earth Goddesess that the natives worshipped ,that the catholic church fell for, lock, stock, and barrel ,in it's endless search and love of Talking Apparitions...I rebuke and reject this Apparition and image,As All Orthodox Christians Should, it's not Orthodox  police........http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/bron/PDF--Christianity/Lorentzen--Virgin%20of%20Guadalupe.pdf
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« Reply #115 on: December 14, 2011, 04:18:25 PM »

Blessed feast day!!! May Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Theotokos of Tepeyac, have you always under her mantle.

Amen. Although I don't venerate Our Lady of Guadalupe, I think it's a beautiful story.
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« Reply #116 on: December 14, 2011, 05:37:09 PM »

I Believe that The Image of the Virgen de Guadalupe is just another face of one of the many Earth Goddesess

Funny, that's what lots of people say about us and our veneration of the Virgin in general.
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« Reply #117 on: December 14, 2011, 07:04:54 PM »

And all the talking apparitions Orthodoxy is replete with...
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« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2011, 07:52:09 PM »

Quote
In your view, what are the qualifications for something to be venerated as an Orthodox icon? Would it be permissible to venerate this?

Over several years I have extensively expressed many of the criteria which make an image a proper Orthodox icon worthy of veneration. You may wish to examine my posts in this regard.  police

In short, there should be complete correlation and harmony between what is depicted on the image, and the scriptural, liturgical (including hymnographic) and doctrinal tradition of the Orthodox church. The San Damiano crucifix, like much very early Renaissance religious art, does not contradict Orthodox tradition. The image of the Virgin of Guadalupe does, for reasons I have expressed previously.
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« Reply #119 on: December 14, 2011, 09:52:09 PM »

Quote
In short, there should be complete correlation and harmony between what is depicted on the image, and the scriptural, liturgical (including hymnographic) and doctrinal tradition of the Orthodox church. The San Damiano crucifix, like much very early Renaissance religious art, does not contradict Orthodox tradition. The image of the Virgin of Guadalupe does, for reasons I have expressed previously.

Funny; I've read through the entire thread, and can't find where you pointed out what was wrong with the image itself. Your objection seems to be that it doesn't have an Orthodox origin. The San Damiano crucifix doesn't have an Orthodox origin, yet you say it doesn't contradict Orthodox tradition. The second picture I posted *does* have an Orthodox origin (it's from Christ the Savior cathedral). Plenty of saints had no problem with it.

So what about the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe itself is objectionable, as opposed to its origin?
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« Reply #120 on: December 15, 2011, 12:20:26 AM »

Quote
In short, there should be complete correlation and harmony between what is depicted on the image, and the scriptural, liturgical (including hymnographic) and doctrinal tradition of the Orthodox church. The San Damiano crucifix, like much very early Renaissance religious art, does not contradict Orthodox tradition. The image of the Virgin of Guadalupe does, for reasons I have expressed previously.

Funny; I've read through the entire thread, and can't find where you pointed out what was wrong with the image itself. Your objection seems to be that it doesn't have an Orthodox origin. The San Damiano crucifix doesn't have an Orthodox origin, yet you say it doesn't contradict Orthodox tradition. The second picture I posted *does* have an Orthodox origin (it's from Christ the Savior cathedral). Plenty of saints had no problem with it.

So what about the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe itself is objectionable, as opposed to its origin?

A few brief points:

1. She is portrayed alone, without reference to her Son and God.

2. She is bereft of the three stars of perpetual virginity on the forehead and shoulders of her mantle. This motif has been a requirement on all her icons since at least the aftermath of the Third Ecumenical Council, as a proclamation of the dogma of her ever-virginity.

3. The vision which led to the manifestation of the Guadalupe image came from outside of Orthodox tradition. Deal with it.

4. The presence of uncanonical images in Christ the Savior Cathedral does not confer canonicity upon them. The cathedral also has an "icon" of St Juliana Lazarevskaya with her right hand raised, fingers arranged in the IC-XC configuration reserved only for ordained priests and consecrated bishops. And I need not explain yet again why the image of a bearded God the Father in the cupola is heretical, when the Church has denounced such imagery time and time again since at least the time of St John of Damascus.

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« Reply #121 on: December 15, 2011, 03:02:20 AM »

Isn't she portrayed alone in the Pokrov icon.
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« Reply #122 on: December 15, 2011, 04:00:38 AM »

Answers to LBK's few brief points:

Quote
1. She is portrayed alone, without reference to her Son and God.

She's not portrayed alone, the Virgin is pregnant. You can't understand this because it is not your culture. This Icon did not appear in Greece but in Mexico among the Nahua peoples whose culture was entirely distinct from that of the Western nations. They did understand that the Virgin was pregnant (and that the child inside her womb, was the Omnipotent God Himself) because of her attire and because of other signs that were obvious for the Nahua peoples and not so relevant for us Westerners.

Unfortunately as I am not in regular contact with experts on the matter (who are mostly Roman Catholics), I haven't been able to request books and investigate about the signs and the meanings. However, I will do my best to investigate them and write a more detailed explanation.

Quote
2. She is bereft of the three stars of perpetual virginity on the forehead and shoulders of her mantle. This motif has been a requirement on all her icons since at least the aftermath of the Third Ecumenical Council, as a proclamation of the dogma of her ever-virginity.

Please try to be realistic. Could you expect the Nahua peoples to care about this Council when they were used to sacrificing their children to devils by taking their hearts out of their chests, flaying them alive, making them fight against real warriors with fabric weapons while they were tied to a stone? The Spaniards did everything to make them abandon these practices and these beliefs, even violence and brutality could not stop them from doing what they were doing. To say that the icon was a mere trick by the Spanish to explode and sack our country seems unfair. If that had been their only intention, they would have chosen the path that your "Pioneers" chose to impose their rule in this Continent (that is, to destroy every Native tribe, take their land, take more land from other Europeans who weren't that clever and bring "freedom" to all of us. This was not the case, there was no Spanish-style "New Zion" or "Promised Land". The Spanish, in spite of their abuses, saw the Natives as human beings who deserved to receive the Gospel and become good Christians.

Quote
3. The vision which led to the manifestation of the Guadalupe image came from outside of Orthodox tradition. Deal with it.

I still wonder why God allowed the Spanish Christians to land in Mexico instead of the Byzantine-Greeks or the Russians. But who are we to challenge God's will? If our Lord disposed our peoples to become Christian through the Romanist Church, there's nothing we can do about it. The Romanist Church of that time wasn't as bad as the modern one, it did civilize the people, it gave them knowledge of God, of Christ, of modesty, of values, etc. Who knows? Maybe God allowed this in order to prepare our people to receive the whole faith at some point in history, now that most people are aware that the Romanist Church is not the true Church.

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« Reply #123 on: December 15, 2011, 04:18:00 AM »

Isn't she portrayed alone in the Pokrov icon.

No, she is not, or, better said, should not be. In these icons, a motif of Christ blessing is found in the upper border of the icon, or directly above the figure of the Mother of God, or, least commonly, in an upper corner. Here are some examples:







In icons of another historical event, the Visitation to St Sergius of Radonezh, the Holy Trinity (the one associated with Andrei Rublyev) is often painted in the upper border, instead of Christ.
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« Reply #124 on: December 15, 2011, 04:26:21 AM »

Ok. Thanks.
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« Reply #125 on: December 15, 2011, 04:48:21 AM »

A few brief replies to a few points in Mexican's post:

Quote
She's not portrayed alone, the Virgin is pregnant.

In Orthodox icons of the Annunciation, and of the Meeting of the Virgin with Righteous Elizabeth, the Mother of God is also pregnant in time. However, iconography never shows her with a visibly bulging belly. The closest is the 12th century icon known as the Ustiug Annunciation, which shows the infant Christ over her body, in a manner similar to the icons of the Mother of God of the Sign, the latter which very clearly expresses her conception and bearing of the incarnate Son of God.

Quote
You can't understand this because it is not your culture.

This seems rather patronising, don't you think? People have come to Orthodoxy from every culture imaginable, and most have little trouble acquiring an understanding of the "language" of proper iconography, just as they are quite capable of understanding the liturgical cycle, if taught properly. See my comment above on the icons of the Virgin of the Sign.

Quote
Please try to be realistic. Could you expect the Nahua peoples to care about this Council when they were used to sacrificing their children to devils by taking their hearts out of their chests, flaying them alive, making them fight against real warriors with fabric weapons while they were tied to a stone?

It was not essential for the peoples in question to know of the existence of the Council. It was essential that they were taught the doctrine this Council proclaimed.

Quote
To say that the icon was a mere trick by the Spanish to explode and sack our country seems unfair.

Show me where I have said anything remotely like this.  Huh It's not good form to put words in anyone's mouth.
 
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« Reply #126 on: December 15, 2011, 05:39:10 AM »

Quote
You can't understand this because it is not your culture.

This seems rather patronising, don't you think?

LBK,

Not as patronizing as your comment back to him.

Quote
This seems rather patronising, don't you think? People have come to Orthodoxy from every culture imaginable, and most have little trouble acquiring an understanding of the "language" of proper iconography, just as they are quite capable of understanding the liturgical cycle, if taught properly.

Quote
Please try to be realistic. Could you expect the Nahua peoples to care about this Council when they were used to sacrificing their children to devils by taking their hearts out of their chests, flaying them alive, making them fight against real warriors with fabric weapons while they were tied to a stone?

Quote
It was not essential for the peoples in question to know of the existence of the Council. It was essential that they were taught the doctrine this Council proclaimed.

As Mexican said, please try to be realistic. You aren't trying.

Many years,

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« Reply #127 on: December 15, 2011, 07:16:51 AM »

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As Mexican said, please try to be realistic. You aren't trying.

The Nahua aren't the only peoples in the world whose culture featured what we would call savage or belligerent practices who were successfully brought to the Christian faith. Try again, my friend.

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« Reply #128 on: December 17, 2011, 12:50:54 AM »

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As Mexican said, please try to be realistic. You aren't trying.

The Nahua aren't the only peoples in the world whose culture featured what we would call savage or belligerent practices who were successfully brought to the Christian faith. Try again, my friend.



If the Church can Christianize the cult of Perun with the cult of St. Elijah the Thunderer, can it not Christianize a much more explicitly Christian image such as the Virgin of Guadalupe?
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« Reply #129 on: December 17, 2011, 03:04:10 AM »

The Mother of God, with crown, seems to have ancient credentials



And also modern credentials.   The icon of the Reigning Mother of God was revealed by our holy Mother herself in March 1917.   Obviously she approves of being crowned.  Can we deny her?  Can we remove her crown and also thrust her out of her throne?

The "Enthroned" (or "Reigning") Icon of the Mother of God appeared on March 2, 1917, the day of Tsar Nicholas's abdication, in the village of Kolomskoye near Moscow.

In February 1917, an elderly woman named Eudokia saw the Mother of God in a dream telling her to go to Kolomskoye to find a large blackened icon in a church. After the vision was repeated three times, she went to Kolomskoye to search for the icon with the priest Nicholas.

In the basement of the church they found the icon and started wiping off the accumulated dust. Then they were able to see the Most Holy Theotokos wearing a crown and sitting on a throne. Immediately, Father Nicholas celebrated a service of Thanksgiving and an Akathist...
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/enthroned-or-reigning-icon-of-mother-of.html


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« Reply #130 on: December 17, 2011, 03:42:57 AM »

Quote
As Mexican said, please try to be realistic. You aren't trying.

The Nahua aren't the only peoples in the world whose culture featured what we would call savage or belligerent practices who were successfully brought to the Christian faith. Try again, my friend.



If the Church can Christianize the cult of Perun with the cult of St. Elijah the Thunderer, can it not Christianize a much more explicitly Christian image such as the Virgin of Guadalupe?

Prophet Elijah was a real, historical person. Perun was a pagan deity who never existed as a living human being. To use them as analogues is no different from saying the Mother of God is an analogue of Isis or some other goddess.
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« Reply #131 on: December 17, 2011, 08:05:10 AM »

LBK, how do you respond to Deacon Lance's usage of Acts 10:5 in this context? I don't see a way around it.
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« Reply #132 on: December 17, 2011, 10:20:10 AM »

So images are only holy, if they follow eastern cultural standards. Got it.

I never realized the shear holy power of the eastern culture.
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« Reply #133 on: December 17, 2011, 10:22:33 AM »

Wrong emphasis. It's Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #134 on: December 17, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »

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So images are only holy, if they follow eastern cultural standards. Got it.

Wrong. Images are holy if they proclaim and express what the Orthodox Church teaches. Have I not made this point often enough in so many of my posts on this forum?
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