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Author Topic: Virgen de Guadalupe (and other appiritions) in WRO  (Read 19212 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 05, 2011, 11:05:45 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 11:37:19 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 11:47:00 PM »

I believe that in the OCA cathedral's nave in Mexico City there is a fresco of this apparition painted in with all of the Orthodox iconography.
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 05:03:22 AM »

(but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such)

How would it be different?
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 05:44:56 AM »

From another thread:
This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 10:50:45 PM »

Does anyone sell that Icon anymore? 
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2011, 10:57:34 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2011, 11:07:41 PM »

Quote
I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

There is no feast to this image in any Orthodox calendar I have on hand or have encountered; the troparia and kontakia must be of Eastern Catholic origin.
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 11:11:57 PM »

Quote
I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

There is no feast to this image in any Orthodox calendar I have on hand or have encountered; the troparia and kontakia must be of Eastern Catholic origin.

Forgive me, but it seems to me they are also of little poetic quality.
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2011, 11:16:24 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_of_Guadalupe

Quote
According to the account of Juan Diego, the Virgin Mary described herself using the Aztec Nahuatl word-name of Coatlaxopeuh (pronounced "quatlachupe") which the Spanish misunderstood as being the word "Guadalupe". In Nahuatl "Coa" meant serpent, "tla" the noun ending which can be interpreted as "the", and "xopeuh" means to crush or to stamp out, translating to mean: the one "who crushes the serpent,"

...

This reflects Catholic theology, in understanding that Mary is the woman described in the twelfth chapter of St. John's Apocalypse.
Yes, it definitely looks like we have an apparition endorsing false doctrine ("I am the Immaculate Conception," anyone?)
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2011, 11:26:29 PM »

Quote
I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

There is no feast to this image in any Orthodox calendar I have on hand or have encountered; the troparia and kontakia must be of Eastern Catholic origin.

As far as I know my Metropolia is the only Eastern Catholic Church that has officially added the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe to the calendar and composed hymns for it.  The above are not from the Byzantine Catholic Church.

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/MenaionDecember
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 11:28:23 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
It does, but I'm not sure if this wasn't added by the Vatican's devout, just like the image of the moon etc. on the tilme are additions added on (perhaps to make it into the woman of Revelation):they are not part of the original image.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2011, 11:32:12 PM »

Quote
The above are not from the Byzantine Catholic Church.

I can assure you they are not part of Orthodox hymnography, either.
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2011, 11:53:29 PM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
It does, but I'm not sure if this wasn't added by the Vatican's devout, just like the image of the moon etc. on the tilme are additions added on (perhaps to make it into the woman of Revelation):they are not part of the original image.
But the word Guadalupe itself means, "She who has vanquished the Serpent." Unless you go with Gloria Anzaldua's syncretic translation- "Queen of the Serpents."
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2011, 12:19:58 AM »

This icon is now available from Greece...

http://www.autom.com/autom/Over-600-New-Items_1614710/Icons_1625900/Item_Our-Lady-of-Guadalupe-Icon_1559833.htm

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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 12:33:32 AM »


And so are "icons" of God the Father as an old man, the notorious "ark of salvation" picture, and any number of other images which are contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Their mere presence in a bookstore inventory does not confer canonicity upon them.
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2011, 12:37:04 AM »


And so are "icons" of God the Father as an old man, the notorious "ark of salvation" picture, and any number of other images which are contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Their mere presence in a bookstore inventory does not confer canonicity upon them.
It looks Turkish to me.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 12:41:08 AM »

While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon Wink), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
It does, but I'm not sure if this wasn't added by the Vatican's devout, just like the image of the moon etc. on the tilme are additions added on (perhaps to make it into the woman of Revelation):they are not part of the original image.
But the word Guadalupe itself means, "She who has vanquished the Serpent." Unless you go with Gloria Anzaldua's syncretic translation- "Queen of the Serpents."
Guadalupe means "Valley of the Wolf," a Arabic-Latin hybrid naming a town in central Spain.  The earliest account of Juan Diego are over a century after the event, and I don't know if this "Coatlaxopeuh" is part of the original story, or embellished, like the image, later to fit the Vatican's Marian expectations.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2011, 12:49:02 AM »

My suspicions have been confirmed: the website to which Fr Giryus linked is Roman Catholic. The wares available in the icon section include an "icon" of the "Holy Family" (with St Joseph embracing the Mother of God - a definite no-no), and an image of the Nativity which is simply a neo-Byzantine rendering of western imagery, devoid of Orthodox doctrine and theology of the feast. Both images are quite unsuitable as Orthodox icons.
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2011, 12:49:46 AM »

How silly!  Everything you get from a Greek bookstore is perfect!  Just like everything you read in a book is absolutely true!   Cheesy


And so are "icons" of God the Father as an old man, the notorious "ark of salvation" picture, and any number of other images which are contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Their mere presence in a bookstore inventory does not confer canonicity upon them.
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2011, 01:25:39 AM »

I don't know why la virgen de Guadalupe would be found in any WRO parish. It's a symbol of Mexican folklore/nationalism/mythos just as much (or more so) than "western Christian" heritage. Last time I checked, most WRO parishes weren't very heavily populated with Mexicans. Most of the Orthodox churches in Mexico proper are solidly Byzantine (with the exception of the Coptic church in Morelos, of course). So who would want it there? Who would venerate it? Nobody. It has no connection to any part of the Orthodox faith.

Aside: Strangely, "Guadalupe" is about the only "wadi" derived term I couldn't find in Weston's "Remains of Arabic in the Spanish and Portuguese Languages" (1810), which lists all kinds of things I didn't even know about (not being an expert in Spanish geography or Arabic, after all), e.g., Guadazelete from wadi zallat, which the author translates as "river of prayers" as zellat ("errors") beget prayers. I really, really doubt that explanation, as it seems more likely that the Spanish pronunciation would have converted the emphatic S in "sallat" (prayers) to Z, as they did with the emphatic D elsewhere. Anyway...only one place name is recorded to have the mixed Arabic-Latin of "Guadalupe" -- "Guadalethe", which attaches wadi to the Roman name ("Lethes") for a river in Andalusia.


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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2011, 02:52:43 AM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2011, 03:19:34 AM »

Yeah, really.
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2011, 03:44:14 AM »

Guadalupe means "Valley of the Wolf," a Arabic-Latin hybrid naming a town in central Spain. 
Oh, you're right! I should have known better. I'd heard that before *facepalm*
The earliest account of Juan Diego are over a century after the event, and I don't know if this "Coatlaxopeuh" is part of the original story, or embellished, like the image, later to fit the Vatican's Marian expectations.
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 04:43:58 AM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

I wouldn't find it disappointing. I'd find it outrageous and unacceptable.
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 10:00:24 AM »

I don't know why la virgen de Guadalupe would be found in any WRO parish. It's a symbol of Mexican folklore/nationalism/mythos just as much (or more so) than "western Christian" heritage. Last time I checked, most WRO parishes weren't very heavily populated with Mexicans. Most of the Orthodox churches in Mexico proper are solidly Byzantine (with the exception of the Coptic church in Morelos, of course). So who would want it there? Who would venerate it? Nobody. It has no connection to any part of the Orthodox faith.

Aside: Strangely, "Guadalupe" is about the only "wadi" derived term I couldn't find in Weston's "Remains of Arabic in the Spanish and Portuguese Languages" (1810), which lists all kinds of things I didn't even know about (not being an expert in Spanish geography or Arabic, after all), e.g., Guadazelete from wadi zallat, which the author translates as "river of prayers" as zellat ("errors") beget prayers. I really, really doubt that explanation, as it seems more likely that the Spanish pronunciation would have converted the emphatic S in "sallat" (prayers) to Z, as they did with the emphatic D elsewhere. Anyway...only one place name is recorded to have the mixed Arabic-Latin of "Guadalupe" -- "Guadalethe", which attaches wadi to the Roman name ("Lethes") for a river in Andalusia.



Did it have my favorite Guadalajara "river of s*/t"?
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2011, 11:28:03 AM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

I wouldn't find it disappointing. I'd find it outrageous and unacceptable.
I know I've never heard wind of the WRO accepting post scism apparitions.
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2011, 11:32:24 AM »


Did it have my favorite Guadalajara "river of s*/t"?

Wadi el khara... Oh, that's hilarious! I never knew that.
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2011, 11:50:34 AM »

It's depicted in the new Antiochian Orthodox Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul in Mexico:



As well as in the Antiochian Orthodox Monastery of St. Anthony the Great:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2249351542/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2261240877/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2011, 01:36:17 PM »

Did it have my favorite Guadalajara "river of s*/t"?

Yes, actually, but mistranslated as "river of stones". I don't know if this was on purpose or not (maybe the correct translation would have been too scandalous in 1810). Neither the handwritten Arabic nor the transliteration provided match "el hajara" (though they don't match each other, either: el khara vs. lchara...where in the Arab world is ch a transliteration for kh? Maybe among the Jews?)
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2011, 01:53:05 PM »

It's depicted in the new Antiochian Orthodox Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul in Mexico:



As well as in the Antiochian Orthodox Monastery of St. Anthony the Great:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2249351542/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2261240877/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/

Most probably that is an attempt to "fit in" to their local neighborhood.  It doesn't make it "right". 

Orthodoxy shouldn't change to fit in, we need to change to fit in with Orthodoxy!
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2011, 02:39:53 PM »

Actually, Guadelajara does come from wadi el-hajara (Rock River), and not from the modern Arabic expletive (though I have seen Arabs crack up when the Greek word for "joy" is used in church services).

The reason it can't be from khara is that it's guadi-el-ajara. So, the "a" at the beginning of the second part has to be explained. In the transition from Mozarabic to Early Modern Spanish, both the sounds حand  خ gets dropped completely or turned into silent h's, not turned into j's. For example, the خ in مخدة  becomes a silent h in almohada. The Spanish "j" only came to be pronounced as a "kh" sometime after the 15th century. We know this because in Ladino (Judeo-Spanish) it is pronounced like an English "j". Thus it makes more sense for وادي الحجرة to become Guadelajara than for the obscene option, which would probably become something like Guadelare or Guadelari (due to imala in the final vowel).
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2011, 03:22:30 PM »

That sounds plausible, Samn, but there are some things that don't really follow that pattern, such as kh and H turning into f in words like alfayata (from khiaTut) and alfalfa (from Helfa). What's the deal? They're not deleted or turned into silent H's.

I don't really know anything about Spanish historical linguistics, so I'm not claiming you're wrong, just wondering.
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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2011, 03:58:18 PM »

Okay, so I looked up reflexes of Arabic [kh] in Federico Corriente's (Google-Bookable!) Dictionary of Arabic and allied loanwords: Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Galician and kindred dialects, p. xxxix. The most common thing is to simply lose the sound or write it as 'h'. It also sometimes shows up as 'c' or 'g' and 'f', the latter of which often still winds up becoming an h later on, as f and h merge in certain positions in Castillian and become unpronounced.

According to Corriente's discussion of the term, alfalfa probably comes from al-fasfasa, though....

For our purposes discussing Guadelajara, my point still stands, since there are still no cases of an Andalusi Arabic kh showing up as 'j' in Spanish. The Arabic loanwords into Spanish that use 'j' for [kh] are all modern.
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2011, 04:14:59 PM »

Alright. I have a little bit of Corriente's stuff. I'll have to find it and look it up, as I'm sure it's in there. It's definitely much more reliable than Weston (which I chose because I have it in PDF and it's a lot easier to digest, since it's in dictionary format).

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« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2011, 05:06:33 PM »

I believe that in the OCA cathedral's nave in Mexico City there is a fresco of this apparition painted in with all of the Orthodox iconography.

I saw one at Project Mexico, but it was quite different than the usual RC image. According to the Orthodox in Mexico I talked with, the usual Guadalupe has on it symbolism which is syncretistic, added later by a priest to try and win Aztecs over. The Orthodox image is much simpler.
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« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2011, 05:09:54 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.
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« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2011, 05:12:32 PM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

It depends on the feast and the interpretation given to it.
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« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2011, 05:13:16 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

I meant the one I saw in an Orthodox church. I don't know if it's still there. I didn't mean to apply to it Official Orthodox Status.
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« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2011, 05:13:59 PM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

It depends on the feast and the interpretation given to it.

What feast? There is no Orthodox feast associated with this image.
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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2011, 05:18:36 PM »

I would find it very dissapointing if any WRO parishes gave any legitimacy to any western post-schism apparitions.

It depends on the feast and the interpretation given to it.

What feast? There is no Orthodox feast associated with this image.

Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.
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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2011, 05:23:31 PM »

Quote
Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.

Are you sure on that? I sincerely hope you're mistaken. Celebrating non-Orthodox feasts sounds like the sort of syncretistic nonsense seen at New Skete .....  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2011, 05:42:21 PM »

Quote
Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.

Are you sure on that? I sincerely hope you're mistaken. Celebrating non-Orthodox feasts sounds like the sort of syncretistic nonsense seen at New Skete .....  Roll Eyes

Some WRO churches do Sacred Heart and Blessed Sacrament feasts, in ways a bit different than done by Roman Catholics. Some do not. Even in the Antiochian Archdiocese there is variation.
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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2011, 05:53:00 PM »

Quote
Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.

Are you sure on that? I sincerely hope you're mistaken. Celebrating non-Orthodox feasts sounds like the sort of syncretistic nonsense seen at New Skete .....  Roll Eyes

Some WRO churches do Sacred Heart and Blessed Sacrament feasts, in ways a bit different than done by Roman Catholics. Some do not. Even in the Antiochian Archdiocese there is variation.

The fact that they are being done in any form is cause for alarm, and must be dealt with. What next, celebrating the Immaculate Conception?
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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2011, 06:11:36 PM »

Quote
Some WRO, to varying extents, celebrate post-schism Marian feasts, not with this image that I've seen so far, but with post-schism commemorations, IIRC.

Are you sure on that? I sincerely hope you're mistaken. Celebrating non-Orthodox feasts sounds like the sort of syncretistic nonsense seen at New Skete .....  Roll Eyes

Some WRO churches do Sacred Heart and Blessed Sacrament feasts, in ways a bit different than done by Roman Catholics. Some do not. Even in the Antiochian Archdiocese there is variation.

The fact that they are being done in any form is cause for alarm, and must be dealt with. What next, celebrating the Immaculate Conception?

It's not like there are secret things being done without the knowledge of bishops. I find that if one actually attends several WRO churches and gets to know WRO priests and people well there will be less cause for alarm. It's not like they're a papist fifth column--any more so than their ERO counterparts.
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« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2011, 06:24:41 PM »

"Getting to know the priest and people" is completely beside the point. Celebrating heterodox feasts in an Orthodox church cannot be justified in any way. Iconography and hymnography are the most accessible and visible expressions of Orthodox doctrine and theology. They are not playthings to be used in pandering to sectional interests, no matter how "noble" the cause.  Angry Angry
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« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2011, 07:27:04 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

What if the Orthodox bishops were to conduct their own investigation and declare the image miraculous?  What if they already do and that is why we find the image in Orthodox Churches in Mexico?
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« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2011, 07:31:04 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

What if the Orthodox bishops were to conduct their own investigation and declare the image miraculous?  What if they already do and that is why we find the image in Orthodox Churches in Mexico?

Show us evidence that Orthodox bishops have arrived at this conclusion, and that this has been accepted at Synodal level. Show us where in the Menaion or in any recognized Orthodox calendar we can find commemoration of this image.
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« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2011, 07:37:58 PM »

There are many post-Schism elements to all of the canonically approved Western Rites, but when it comes to feasts regarding post-Schism apparitions or post-Schism saints, you won't find it. Or shouldn't any way. The closest thing you'll find is the Our Lady of Walsingham.

Now, there are some post-Schism feasts, such as Corpus Christi and (more rarely) Sacred Heart, but they are not in any way secretive or done without the full knowledge of our hierarchs.

Interestingly, during the first (of hopefully many) Western Rite conferences between ROCOR and the AWRV, these were addressed and discussed. Some expressed concern over the continued usage of these feasts, some gave defenses of them, and it was concluded that papers will be drafted and presented to the Metropolitans for further approval (not because the Metropolitans aren't aware of it, but in an effort to hopefully approach a more unified Western use). But, Corpus Christi and Blessed Sacrament were universally agreed upon to remain in use.
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« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2011, 07:53:31 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

What if the Orthodox bishops were to conduct their own investigation and declare the image miraculous?  What if they already do and that is why we find the image in Orthodox Churches in Mexico?

Show us evidence that Orthodox bishops have arrived at this conclusion, and that this has been accepted at Synodal level. Show us where in the Menaion or in any recognized Orthodox calendar we can find commemoration of this image.

I am asking the question not making a statement.
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« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2011, 09:37:04 PM »

"Getting to know the priest and people" is completely beside the point. Celebrating heterodox feasts in an Orthodox church cannot be justified in any way. Iconography and hymnography are the most accessible and visible expressions of Orthodox doctrine and theology. They are not playthings to be used in pandering to sectional interests, no matter how "noble" the cause.  Angry Angry

I agree 100% with LBK.  Giving credence to these non-Orthodox theology, within the wall of Orthodox churches is a huge mistake.

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« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2011, 10:01:26 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox image is much simpler.

Orthodox image? It is not part of Orthodox tradition, my friend. None of the versions express established and fundamental Orthodox teachings on the Mother of God.

What if the Orthodox bishops were to conduct their own investigation and declare the image miraculous?  What if they already do and that is why we find the image in Orthodox Churches in Mexico?

Show us evidence that Orthodox bishops have arrived at this conclusion, and that this has been accepted at Synodal level. Show us where in the Menaion or in any recognized Orthodox calendar we can find commemoration of this image.
Have they even investigated the issue?
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« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2011, 10:48:49 PM »

"Getting to know the priest and people" is completely beside the point. Celebrating heterodox feasts in an Orthodox church cannot be justified in any way. Iconography and hymnography are the most accessible and visible expressions of Orthodox doctrine and theology. They are not playthings to be used in pandering to sectional interests, no matter how "noble" the cause.  Angry Angry

I agree 100% with LBK.  Giving credence to these non-Orthodox theology, within the wall of Orthodox churches is a huge mistake.


And yet Isaac of Ninevah is an Orthodox saint.
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« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2011, 11:03:43 PM »

And yet Isaac of Ninevah is an Orthodox saint.

But he didn't originate from within post-schism Roman Cathlicism.
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« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2011, 11:36:57 PM »

But he did originate from within post-schism ACOE. Having been a bishop, I think we can justifiably conclude that he personally held a Nestorian Christology, as well.
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« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2011, 11:52:05 PM »

We have this at my church, right next to the prothesis altar.

From another thread:
This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.

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« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2011, 12:01:20 AM »

Why? Does your parish have a lot of Mexicans or Mexican-Americans in it? (Again, I'm not really understanding why other people would venerate it, in addition to not understanding why any Orthodox person would venerate it.)
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« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2011, 12:34:56 AM »

We have this at my church, right next to the prothesis altar.

From another thread:
This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.


More's the pity.  Sad Sad Sad Still doesn't make the image any more Orthodox.
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« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2011, 02:14:12 AM »

Maybe the Serpent they're talking about is Quetzalcoatl?


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« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2011, 02:23:19 AM »

We have this at my church, right next to the prothesis altar.

Does it feel like syncretism to you?
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« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2011, 02:37:02 AM »

We have this at my church, right next to the prothesis altar.

Does it feel like syncretism to you?

It should.
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« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2011, 03:25:10 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I would say that there is probably no city in this world more so dedicated to the Virgin Mary then Los Angeles, shrines and murals to La Virgen de Guadalupe saturate practically every corner store, blank wall, and front yard altar across every square inch of this town, from the Valley southbound to the South Bay, from Long Beach northbound to East L.A., Our Lady is everywhere in this city, steadily reminding people by Her apparition that Our Lord is with us, that Her prayers are with us, that God is real.  This is a crazy city, and if it weren't for Our Lady, many more of us might come up dead or missing than already occurs.  Like Bob Marley sang, "the youth them live it big today tomorrow buried in a casket.."


One thing that continually keeps me going any given day in this city is to walk around and see Our Lady plastered everywhere.  Further, it legitimizes the entire Chicano/Mexican experience, gives an outlook for indigenous expression of faith, and is a true miracle.  If folks don't want to accept that Our Lady made a relationship with Mexico because it is a Roman Catholic doctrine, that is fine and they are free to assume such, however we here in Los Angeles and Mexico understand from the depths of our hearts the reality of this vision.  We in the Ethiopian Tradition also have a similar story and relationship with Our Lady, known as the Kidane Mehret, which is the Covenant of Mercy, and we can then relate readily to the Mexican situation.  Brown and black folks are part of the Church too, and apparitions and visions of Our Lady are not exclusive to Eastern Europe Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2011, 03:30:24 PM »



A challenge for LBK:

What is NOT wrong with the above?

//:=)
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« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2011, 03:57:42 PM »

(raising hand) OO mee!! Pick me!!!

Things that aren't wrong:

1. St. Mary is in Heaven
2. She is praying
3. The Cross behind her symbolizes Christianity

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« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2011, 04:22:12 PM »

(raising hand) OO mee!! Pick me!!!

Shrewdly played . . .
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« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2011, 04:55:56 PM »

"Getting to know the priest and people" is completely beside the point. Celebrating heterodox feasts in an Orthodox church cannot be justified in any way. Iconography and hymnography are the most accessible and visible expressions of Orthodox doctrine and theology. They are not playthings to be used in pandering to sectional interests, no matter how "noble" the cause.  Angry Angry

I agree 100% with LBK.  Giving credence to these non-Orthodox theology, within the wall of Orthodox churches is a huge mistake.



Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

I mean, since we're getting rid of non-Orthodox practices, we might as well clean house. Right?

Or are we just going to get rid of the ones that don't suit our tastes?

I'm not trying to pick on you Lyza, but let's all be honest with ourselves here, are any of our parishes in full 100% compliance with Orthodox theology? I can think of at least ten things that go on in my parish that aren't in compliance with Orthodox theology, and the Bishops know about it.

There is currently a thread on this forum entitled "Cafeteria Catholics."

Pot meet kettle.
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« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2011, 05:01:39 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
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« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2011, 09:32:04 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?
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« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2011, 09:54:06 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
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« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2011, 09:58:38 PM »



A challenge for LBK:

What is NOT wrong with the above?

//:=)

Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

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« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2011, 10:01:15 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
Oh I quite agree, that's madness.

I guess I thought you were the same "down with all things remotely pagan" approach which some in here thought. Disregard my lack of posting aim  laugh
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« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2011, 10:06:39 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
Oh I quite agree, that's madness.

I guess I thought you were the same "down with all things remotely pagan" approach which some in here thought. Disregard my lack of posting aim  laugh

I'm not one of those that insists we burn all Christmas trees, but the scenario I've described seems pretty obscene, doesn't it?

I'd love to know what happened on that morning I was hungover. They probably installed a statue of Athena on the solea and garlanded it with olive leaves and encircled it, dancing the kalamatiano.

To be fair, it was probably an ordinary Liturgy which I missed due to my own sinful tendencies but, as far as I know, three out of four Liturgies this month involved the Greek flag. Something's not right.
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« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2011, 10:15:27 PM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
Oh I quite agree, that's madness.

I guess I thought you were the same "down with all things remotely pagan" approach which some in here thought. Disregard my lack of posting aim  laugh

I'm not one of those that insists we burn all Christmas trees, but the scenario I've described seems pretty obscene, doesn't it?

I'd love to know what happened on that morning I was hungover. They probably installed a statue of Athena on the solea and garlanded it with olive leaves and encircled it, dancing the kalamatiano.

To be fair, it was probably an ordinary Liturgy which I missed due to my own sinful tendencies but, as far as I know, three out of four Liturgies this month involved the Greek flag. Something's not right.
Neh, it sure is.

But from what I've seen, having the Virgin of Guadalupe everywhere is a lot milder in terms of nationalism, though (imo it's the least objectionable thing about Latino popular piety. At least they aren't making icons of Santa Meurte).
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« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2011, 10:18:05 PM »

[...](imo it's the least objectionable thing about Latino popular piety. At least they aren't making icons of Santa Meurte).

I'm with you on both counts, from my ignorant Australian vantage point.
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« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2011, 10:23:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



 Brown and black folks are part of the Church too, and apparitions and visions of Our Lady are not exclusive to Eastern Europe Wink

LOL. I notice that everyone in the pictures are white.
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« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2011, 10:41:45 PM »

Ugh...let's not start THAT again, please, ya Isa...  Roll Eyes

And, Volnutt, I don't know if I'd call that Santa Muerte crap "popular piety"...popular with drug dealers and sicarios, sure, but normal people wouldn't be caught dead with that stuff around them. (Granted they'd still go to curanderas, celebrate the day of the dead, etc. but that's more general folklore and superstition than anything to do with their professed religion, not much different in that way than the "evil eye" that is so prevalent among Mediterranean people and people connected to those cultures.)
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« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2011, 12:14:43 AM »

Quote
Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

Oh, I've seen worse than this, Iconodule.  laugh You oughta see my schlock file, which is, sadly, growing. The recent work of a certain EO priest is particularly disturbing, not least because he oughta know better.  Angry

But it remains that the OO do not recognise any of the Ecumenical Councils past the Third, which seems to me to be why much of their iconography resembles western religious art so strongly.
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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2011, 12:23:59 AM »

Quote
Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

Oh, I've seen worse than this, Iconodule.  laugh You oughta see my schlock file, which is, sadly, growing. The recent work of a certain EO priest is particularly disturbing, not least because he oughta know better.  Angry

But it remains that the OO do not recognise any of the Ecumenical Councils past the Third, which seems to me to be why much of their iconography resembles western religious art so strongly.
?
What of their iconography resembles Western religious art is the same reason why much of our iconography resembles Western religious art.
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« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2011, 12:28:49 AM »

From another thread:
This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.


Since an old post of mine has been re-posted, I thought I should reply...

According to information posted on another forum, the icon was painted by an Orthodox monk  by the name of Fr. Nathaniel from Ohio of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. I am assuming it is the late Fr. Nathaniel from St. Gregory Palamas Greek Orthodox monastery in Akron, Ohio.

The icon was available for purchase from the catalogs published by the now closed Christ of the Hills Monastery in Blanco, Texas.

As for the troparion and kontakion, these were composed and posted online by a one Bishop Basil of the Life-Giving Fountain Orthodox Mission, a non-canonical Orthodox community.

In addition to the troparion and kontakion composed by the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia mentioned by Deacon Lance, the Ukrainian Catholic monks of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Ukiah, CA also composed their own office for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe which they celebrate at their monastery:

TROPAR (TONE 1)

O Holy Lady, Virgin of Guadalupe, Mystical Rose and Queen of America,/you came to bring the peace of Jesus and to take our cares into your loving Heart./ Therefore we venerate your glorious image/ as a sign from God Himself/ that you protect us and pray for our souls.

KONDAK (TONE 4)

O Virgin Mother, your mantle covers all the Americas/ and your miraculous image proclaims the glory of God./ Make our wintery hearts blossom with roses of repentance and love,/ and allow us to place them in the crossing of your arms/, that you may carry them to Christ our God/ and beseech Him to grant us His great mercy.

If I remember correctly, the monks of Holy Resurrection Romanian Catholic Monastery in now Saint Nazianz, WI composed an office for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe when they were still under the then Eparchy of Van Nuys.
Here is video of the monks celebrating their First Vigil Service at their new monastery in Saint Nazianz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWFoy0J-G5M&feature=youtube_gdata_player  
At minute 1:06, you will see an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe enshrined in their chapel.
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« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2011, 01:37:46 AM »

Ugh...let's not start THAT again, please, ya Isa...  Roll Eyes

And, Volnutt, I don't know if I'd call that Santa Muerte crap "popular piety"...popular with drug dealers and sicarios, sure, but normal people wouldn't be caught dead with that stuff around them. (Granted they'd still go to curanderas, celebrate the day of the dead, etc. but that's more general folklore and superstition than anything to do with their professed religion, not much different in that way than the "evil eye" that is so prevalent among Mediterranean people and people connected to those cultures.)
That's good to know  Smiley
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« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2011, 01:41:41 AM »

But he did originate from within post-schism ACOE. Having been a bishop, I think we can justifiably conclude that he personally held a Nestorian Christology, as well.

St. Isaac was a bishop for a very short period before leaving that position under mysterious circumstances and living in relative obscurity. Neither he nor his writings were particularly esteemed in the COE in his time period, and were primarily disseminated by Eastern Orthodox. Nothing in his writings indicates a Nestorian position (don't believe me, check with the Oriental Orthodox who generally find St. Isaac's writings quite edifying--and far less problematic than St. Leo's Tome or the definition of Chalcedon).

My point being that far too little is actually known about St. Isaac to make him (as opposed to his actual writings) the cornerstone of any strongly made argument. At best, he's the exception that proves the rule if over the course of 2000 years the only example you can find is a man who was not on good terms with his local hierarch and live the majority of his adult life as a hermit.
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« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2011, 01:48:25 AM »

But he did originate from within post-schism ACOE. Having been a bishop, I think we can justifiably conclude that he personally held a Nestorian Christology, as well.

St. Isaac was a bishop for a very short period before leaving that position under mysterious circumstances and living in relative obscurity. Neither he nor his writings were particularly esteemed in the COE in his time period, and were primarily disseminated by Eastern Orthodox. Nothing in his writings indicates a Nestorian position (don't believe me, check with the Oriental Orthodox who generally find St. Isaac's writings quite edifying--and far less problematic than St. Leo's Tome or the definition of Chalcedon).

My point being that far too little is actually known about St. Isaac to make him (as opposed to his actual writings) the cornerstone of any strongly made argument. At best, he's the exception that proves the rule if over the course of 2000 years the only example you can find is a man who was not on good terms with his local hierarch and live the majority of his adult life as a hermit.
Fair enough I guess.
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« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2011, 10:22:41 AM »

Well, while we're at it, let's throw out the national flags in front of the iconostas that are in parishes, organs, pews, speaking anything other than the vernacular during the Liturgy (Goodbye Church Slavonic and Liturgical Greek!), Nationalism, Icons of God the Father, Icons written after Peter the Great was Czar in Russia (have to get rid of that whole "western influence" he ushered in), First Holy Communion celebrations, and mixing Church Feast Days with National Holidays. (Feast of the Holy Skepi becomes "Oxi" day)

Yes, please!
And get rid of Saint Issac, and quit celebrating Christmas on the dates of pagan feasts, and get rid of Good Shepherd icons because they resemble a pagan motif, and stop using Pantocrators and icons of the Theotokos enthroned for the same reason...?

You're feisty today, Vol, haha.

Well, put it this way ...

On Sunday four weeks ago, there was a Greek flag draped over a table on top of which sat the kollyva -- a memorial followed after Divine Liturgy for Greek fallen, I'm not even sure why.

On Sunday three weeks ago, I was too hungover and slept through Liturgy (Lord, have mercy!).

On Sunday two weeks ago, there were multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the whole holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, apparently in honour of "oxi day" and the Greeks who fell in the second wolrd war. After that, a secular remembrance service was held at which the bishop attended fully vested.

On Sunday one week ago, there were again multiple men and women in Greek peasant dress on the solea through the entirety of the Liturgy, all the while holding Greek and Cypriot flags. A memorial followed the Divine Liturgy, this time in honour of "remembrance day". A barbequeue followed as arranged by the philoptochos society, who should probably be renamed the barbeque society, as they don't seem to arrange anything else.

Not sure any of this is comparable with celebrating nativity on the same day as a pagan holiday long defunct.
Oh I quite agree, that's madness.

I guess I thought you were the same "down with all things remotely pagan" approach which some in here thought. Disregard my lack of posting aim  laugh

I'm not one of those that insists we burn all Christmas trees, but the scenario I've described seems pretty obscene, doesn't it?

I'd love to know what happened on that morning I was hungover. They probably installed a statue of Athena on the solea and garlanded it with olive leaves and encircled it, dancing the kalamatiano.

To be fair, it was probably an ordinary Liturgy which I missed due to my own sinful tendencies but, as far as I know, three out of four Liturgies this month involved the Greek flag. Something's not right.
Neh, it sure is.

But from what I've seen, having the Virgin of Guadalupe everywhere is a lot milder in terms of nationalism, though (imo it's the least objectionable thing about Latino popular piety. At least they aren't making icons of Santa Meurte).
santa meurte is not part of popular Catholic Piety in Mexico. Its a devotion to evil and absolute human freedom for those who reject the message of Christianity. It's considered the polar opposite altnernative to Catholicism for drug lords, gang members, etc.
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« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2011, 10:22:41 AM »

Actually, if you ever look closely a picture of the Virgin de Guadalupe, she is not white, but rather native of Mexico. Our Lady appeared to the indigenous peoples in their own color.
BTW,  I love our Lady of Guadalupe. She gives me hope that there can be an end to abortion. She helped bring an end to the human sacrifices of Mexico, why can she not help to bring an end to America's own holocausts.
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« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2011, 02:55:46 PM »

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Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

Oh, I've seen worse than this, Iconodule.  laugh You oughta see my schlock file, which is, sadly, growing. The recent work of a certain EO priest is particularly disturbing, not least because he oughta know better.  Angry

But it remains that the OO do not recognise any of the Ecumenical Councils past the Third, which seems to me to be why much of their iconography resembles western religious art so strongly.

Well, I guess its a good thing the Russian Church follows the 7th council...

http://www.barakatgallery.com/store/index.cfm/FuseAction/ItemDetails/cmdNextItem/9347/ItemID/9347/SubCatID/175/userid/0.htm
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« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2011, 05:43:57 PM »

Quote
Number 1 reason why EO-OO unity is undesirable: LBK's inevitable heart attack

Oh, I've seen worse than this, Iconodule.  laugh You oughta see my schlock file, which is, sadly, growing. The recent work of a certain EO priest is particularly disturbing, not least because he oughta know better.  Angry

But it remains that the OO do not recognise any of the Ecumenical Councils past the Third, which seems to me to be why much of their iconography resembles western religious art so strongly.

Well, I guess its a good thing the Russian Church follows the 7th council...

http://www.barakatgallery.com/store/index.cfm/FuseAction/ItemDetails/cmdNextItem/9347/ItemID/9347/SubCatID/175/userid/0.htm

Indeed it does:

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« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2011, 08:56:48 AM »

LBK, your picture doesn't show up. Regardless, my point still stands. "Youz guyz" mock a Ethiopian Icon and try to blame it on the fact that we don't accept your 7th council. I then posted a link to a Russian Icon showing the exact same thing.  Maybe you can discuss what's wrong with that icon instead.

I guess I should start putting in a folder every Byzantine Icon showing God the Father as a man, St. John the Baptist as a martyr, the Holy Theotokos on Christ's left side, etc. and use it as proof of your heterodoxy for not following the decisions of the Coptic Synod.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2011, 09:05:23 AM »

LBK, your picture doesn't show up.

Here 'tis.  Wink (Though I can still see it in the earlier post  Huh)

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« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2011, 09:13:09 AM »

Quote
Maybe you can discuss what's wrong with that icon instead.

I already have, on several threads over the years. You would do well to search them out.

Quote
St. John the Baptist as a martyr, the Holy Theotokos on Christ's left side, etc.

St John the Baptist was indeed a martyr. The feast of the Beheading of the Forerunner is important enough for the Church to designate it a strict fasting day, much like the Exaltation of the Cross on September 14. As for the Mother of God and which side the Christ-child is in relation to her, there are no prohibitions on whether she holds Him on her left or her right side.
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« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2011, 09:14:08 AM »

It still doesn't show up, no problem. From the properties, its Rublev's Holy Trinity, a most sublime icon BTW.  But
My comment was regarding the Holy Theotokos being crowned in HabteSelassie's post and my point still stands.
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« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2011, 09:20:25 AM »

It still doesn't show up, no problem. From the properties, its Rublev's Holy Trinity, a most sublime icon BTW.  But
My comment was regarding the Holy Theotokos being crowned in HabteSelassie's post and my point still stands.

The Mother of God being crowned in the Coptic image is not of Orthodox origin, but derived from non-Orthodox religious art, which expresses much which is incompatible with Orthodox doctrine and theology. The presence of God the Father as a bearded old man is but one reason it falls well short of being an icon.
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« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2011, 09:20:56 AM »

Quote
Maybe you can discuss what's wrong with that icon instead.

I already have, on several threads over the years. You may wish to search them out.


Then +1 for your consistency. I stand corrected.

St. John the Baptist as a martyr, the Holy Theotokos on Christ's left side, etc.

St John the Baptist was indeed a martyr. The feast of the Beheading of the Forerunner is important enough for the Church to designate it a strict fasting day, much like the Exaltation of the Cross on September 14. As for the Mother of God and which side the Christ-child is in relation to her, there are no prohibitions on whether she holds Him on her left or her right side.


But since its forbidden in my Church then clearly your Church is wrong...(yes, I'm being sarcastic)
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« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2011, 09:23:52 AM »

It still doesn't show up, no problem. From the properties, its Rublev's Holy Trinity, a most sublime icon BTW.  But
My comment was regarding the Holy Theotokos being crowned in HabteSelassie's post and my point still stands.

The Mother of God being crowned in the Coptic image is not of Orthodox origin, but derived from non-Orthodox religious art, which expresses much which is incompatible with Orthodox doctrine and theology. The presence of God the Father as a bearded old man is but one reason it falls well short of being an icon.

But there are a very great number of Byzantine Icons with God the Father as an old man. The OCA Church I used to visit had a huge fresco of it.
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« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2011, 09:34:50 AM »

It still doesn't show up, no problem. From the properties, its Rublev's Holy Trinity, a most sublime icon BTW.  But
My comment was regarding the Holy Theotokos being crowned in HabteSelassie's post and my point still stands.

The Mother of God being crowned in the Coptic image is not of Orthodox origin, but derived from non-Orthodox religious art, which expresses much which is incompatible with Orthodox doctrine and theology. The presence of God the Father as a bearded old man is but one reason it falls well short of being an icon.

But there are a very great number of Byzantine Icons with God the Father as an old man. The OCA Church I used to visit had a huge fresco of it.

Just because they exist doesn't mean they're correct. The prohibition on showing God the Father as an old man goes back at least as far as the time of St John Damascus, and has been dealt with at various councils over the centuries, and in his authoritative treatise In Defense of the Holy Images. Yet, people continued to paint such images, either out of honest ignorance (very much the case in times past), or for reasons best known to themselves. The same goes for other uncanonical images such as Holy Silence, Holy Wisdom, and others. I have commented on these as well in other threads.


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« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2011, 09:37:29 AM »

LBK, I'll definitely read through your older posts. I'm sorry for my initital response being so defensive.
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« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2011, 09:39:37 AM »

LBK, I'll definitely read through your older posts. I'm sorry for my initital response being so defensive.

No problem. Happy to help.  Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2011, 01:39:19 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I would say that there is probably no city in this world more so dedicated to the Virgin Mary then Los Angeles, shrines and murals to La Virgen de Guadalupe saturate practically every corner store, blank wall, and front yard altar across every square inch of this town, from the Valley southbound to the South Bay, from Long Beach northbound to East L.A., Our Lady is everywhere in this city, steadily reminding people by Her apparition that Our Lord is with us, that Her prayers are with us, that God is real.  This is a crazy city, and if it weren't for Our Lady, many more of us might come up dead or missing than already occurs.  Like Bob Marley sang, "the youth them live it big today tomorrow buried in a casket.."


One thing that continually keeps me going any given day in this city is to walk around and see Our Lady plastered everywhere.  Further, it legitimizes the entire Chicano/Mexican experience, gives an outlook for indigenous expression of faith, and is a true miracle.  If folks don't want to accept that Our Lady made a relationship with Mexico because it is a Roman Catholic doctrine, that is fine and they are free to assume such, however we here in Los Angeles and Mexico understand from the depths of our hearts the reality of this vision.  We in the Ethiopian Tradition also have a similar story and relationship with Our Lady, known as the Kidane Mehret, which is the Covenant of Mercy, and we can then relate readily to the Mexican situation.  Brown and black folks are part of the Church too, and apparitions and visions of Our Lady are not exclusive to Eastern Europe Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Could you tell me a bit more about the similar story in Ethiopian tradition? I just got an Ethiopian icon which looks a lot like the Virgin if Guadalupe story and I was wondering what the background of the image in an Ethiopian context is.
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« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2011, 03:37:51 AM »

You know I'm not Mexican Roman Catholic, and don't have any veneration to this image Per Se, but even the Russian Orthodox have non Byzantine Style Icons i.e. "western influence " and they are miracle working icons and are "Orthodox". I think its disingenuous to call the Image in question "syncretic" considering this... You know God can take whatever he likes as far as matter goes and do with it that he wills. My only issue  is despite this, is that with a lot of religious images that have attained some kind of national symbolism for the people who venerate them ,is an unhealthy cult of superstition around those images which lead to heretical thinking. I would not be hasty with my judgement regarding a holy image.
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« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2011, 04:53:10 AM »

You know I'm not Mexican Roman Catholic, and don't have any veneration to this image Per Se, but even the Russian Orthodox have non Byzantine Style Icons i.e. "western influence " and they are miracle working icons and are "Orthodox". I think its disingenuous to call the Image in question "syncretic" considering this... You know God can take whatever he likes as far as matter goes and do with it that he wills. My only issue  is despite this, is that with a lot of religious images that have attained some kind of national symbolism for the people who venerate them ,is an unhealthy cult of superstition around those images which lead to heretical thinking. I would not be hasty with my judgement regarding a holy image.
I don't think anyone is saying God cannot use these things even to work miracles. They're only saying the fact that God in His impenetrable sovereignty choses to us them for some purpose does not justify the way in which they were made nor does it justify their reproduction.
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« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2011, 05:29:38 AM »

Quote
I don't think anyone is saying God cannot use these things even to work miracles. They're only saying the fact that God in His impenetrable sovereignty choses to us them for some purpose does not justify the way in which they were made nor does it justify their reproduction.

Or, to put it another way: God can choose to reveal His grace through imperfect vessels. But it is also our responsibility to "get right with God", be it ourselves as believers, or iconographers painting proper canonical icons, or priests and bishops rejecting the inclusion of images not reflecting Orthodox doctrine from the iconostases and walls of churches.

I'll say it again: No matter how honorable the intention, the inclusion of the Virgin of Guadelupe on the iconostasis of an Orthodox church, or painted or hung on its walls is a mistake which must be corrected.
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« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2011, 12:29:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
In regards to the Kidane Mehret/Covenant of Mercy here is the Synaxarium entry:

Quote
And on this day also is commemorated our holy Lady Mary, the two-fold Virgin, the God-bearer, for on it He gave her the Covenant of Mercy and she received it from her Son, our Redeemer Jesus Christ, in respect of him that should celebrate her commemoration, or should call upon her name, or give alms to the poor, even if it were only [a cup of] cold water.  And the Son of this Saint Mary after He ascended into heaven, taking her pure flesh [with Him], sat down at the right hand of His Father, having fulfilled every law of the Incarnation, with the sole exception of sin, and overcome the sufferings of the Cross at His own good pleasure and will, which He did for our salvation.  And He left His mother Mary in the house of John, His disciple, so that he might love her, even as He committed him to her, saying, “Behold thy son,” and He said unto that disciple, “Behold thy mother.”  Thereupon our Lady Mary lived [there], and she used to go to the tomb of her Son, that is to say, Golgotha, to pray there.  And when the Jews saw [her] there they were filled with wrath, and envy, and they wished to drive her away; but God hid her from their eyes.  Then they took counsel, and decided to set guards over His tomb, so that she might not come there again and pray, but she did not cease to go there day by day, and the guards did not see her, because the covering of the glory of her Son hid her.  And always angels were coming to minister unto her, and her Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, visited her frequently, and fulfilled for her all her desires.  Some of the angels used to take her up into the heavens and show her the places where the saints rested, with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  And all the souls of the fathers who had died from Adam until that time worshipped her, saying, “Glory be to God, Who hath created thee flesh of our flesh, and bone of our bone.  In thee we have found salvation, and thou hast become for us the haven of life from destruction through the Son of God taking upon Himself flesh through thee.”  And then the angels took her, and brought her to her beloved Son on His throne, and the curtains, which were flames of fire, were drawn aside on the right hand and on the left, and our Lord took her hand, and kissed her mouth, and said unto her, “Hast thou arrived, O my mother?”  And He raised her up on to the throne of His glory, and He seated her by Him, and He described to her all the joy and gladness which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard of, nor heart of man imagined, which were prepared for her.  And beneath the throne of glory she saw David, the King of Israel, her father, (with all the company of the prophets, and the angels, and the souls of the righteous, in a circle,) singing to the harp, saying, “Hearken unto me, my daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear.  Forget thy people and thy father’s house.  The king hath desired thy beauty; he is thy Lord” (Psalm xlv).  And from there the angels took her to show her the place of punishment, and they brought her to the limit of darkness, which is prepared for Satan and his hosts, and for all those who walk in his ways.  And our Lady Mary said, “Woe is me !  Who will describe this place to the children of men, so that they may not come hither?”  And the angel said unto her, “Fear thou not, O Mary, God is with thee, and for thy sake with those who shall come after thee.” And then the angels carried her away and brought her into a certain place, and thereupon our Lady Mary sat down, being exceedingly sorry for all sinners.  And as it might be this day the sixteenth day of the month of Yakatit, she stood on the Place of the Skull (Golgotha), and besought her Son, saying, “O my Son, swear to me by God Thy Father, and by Thy Name of Christ, and [by] the Paraclete, Thy Spirit, and by my womb which carried Thee for nine months and five days, Thee Whom the earth cannot bear up, Thee Whom the angels cannot approach, I adjure Thee, O my Son, by Thy going forth from me without exhaustion, and by Thy delivery which was painless, I adjure Thee by my breasts which suckled Thee, and by my lips which kissed Thee, I adjure Thee by my hands which embraced Thee, and by my feet which walked with Thee, I adjure Thee by the manger wherein Thou didst lie, and by the ragged cloths wherein Thou wast wrapped, O my Son, and Beloved One, I beseech Thee, and entreat Thee, to hearken unto the words of my petition, and to come to me, and to fulfill for me everything which is in my heart.”  And when our holy Lady, the Virgin Mary, the mother of the Light, had spoken thus, our Lord and Redeemer Jesus Christ came down straightway, and there were with Him, surrounding Him, thousands of thousands, and tens of thousands of tens of thousands of angels, and he said unto her, “What shall I do for thee, Mary, My mother?  What desire hast thou that thou wouldst have Me fulfill for thee?”  And our Lady the holy Virgin Mary answered and said unto her beloved Son, “O my Beloved Son, my Lord and Redeemer, my Hope, my Refuge, upon Thee is placed my trust.  Because of Thee I was strong in the womb of my mother, and in the womb which covered Thee, and Thou art my memorial, at all times.  And now do Thou hear my prayer and petition, and hearken unto the word of my mouth which I speak unto Thee.  I Thy mother Mary, I Thine handmaiden, on behalf of him that shall celebrate my commemoration, and him that shall build a church in my name, or shall clothe the naked, or visit the sick, or feed the hungry, or give drink to him that is athirst, or shall comfort the sorrowful, or shall make the sad to rejoice, or shall write the history of my strife, or shall sing a song at my festival; [swear to me] that God shall give him the good reward from Thee, which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard of, nor the heart of man imagined.  I beseech and entreat Thee on behalf of all those who believe in me, to set them free from Sheol, and to remember the hunger, and thirst, and all the trials which came upon me through Thee.”  And our Lord Jesus Christ answered and said unto her, “It shall be unto thee even as thou sayest, and I will fulfill for thee all thy petition; I became incarnate of thee, and I swear that I will not make any covenant with thee to be a lie.”  Salutation to thee, O Book of the Law and Covenant, like the Tables of stone.

Glory be to God Who is glorified in His Saints.  Amen.
http://www.stmichaeleoc.org/Synaxarium/Yekatit_16.htm

Essentially, this Covenant (Literally "Covering" in the Ge'ez/Amharic) is one established with Our Lady for Her intercession on our behalf.  In Ethiopia, this story has evolved in popular piety to take on the connotations of a national epic, and just as the Virgin of Guadalupe is the Patroness Saint of all the Americas, through this Covenant of Mercy the Ethiopian Church acknowledges that Our Lady established a special relationship with our Church to be our Patroness.  Our Lady is the national Patroness of many nations, across Europe, the Slavic regions, the Americas, and parts of Africa I am sure, but especially the Ethiopians. 

I suppose no where outside of Italy, Poland, or Mexico will you find folks more devoted to Our Lady than the Ethiopians, and this is part of the Kidane Mehret tradition.  We feel we have been honored and blessed by Her for a personal and yet national intercession.  Part of this also plays into the Kebra Negast meta-narratives which highlight the blessings Ethiopia has received nationalistically as the caretakers of the Ark of the Covenant, who Our Lady is.  So even before Christianity, Ethiopia had felt a special relationship with God, and this relationship is extended in Christianity by the Kidane Mehret.

Now in regards to the criticisms expressed here by the EO regarding the Iconic images of the Father used in the Ethiopian tradition, such as in the Kidus Selassie or the Kidane Mehret icons, you are free to your opinions, and of course we are all duty bound to respect your traditions, regulations, and prohibitions, however we are not subject to them.  Images of the Father were only explicitly prohibited in later Councils in reaction to the Iconoclasts era, and the Ethiopian jurisdiction separated from the EO centuries before these edicts were issued.  We practice then the Orthodox which we received from the Fathers, and we have no such prohibitions against images of the Father.  We respect the difference of belief, however, we will continue to honor our images of the Father equally with that of the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Saints.  In fact, in EVERY SINGLE Ethiopian parish, centered above the Altar, is either a mural or icon specifically of the Holy Trinity as Father, Son, Holy Spirit, three identical gray-haired and bearded men.  Further, this image is often included in Icons depicted Saint Stephen's execution, the Father is included often in images of Jesus Christ baptism, and of course the Kidane Mehret is also a very prominent image in our parishes.

By the way, the feast day for Our Lady of Guadalupe is December 12, and here in Los Angeles it should be a very festive occasion indeed Smiley
stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2011, 05:23:29 PM »

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I suppose no where outside of Italy, Poland, or Mexico will you find folks more devoted to Our Lady than the Ethiopians,

Try the Greeks or Russians. Indeed, any nationality where Orthodoxy is the norm.
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« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2011, 05:56:22 PM »


I don't think anyone is saying God cannot use these things even to work miracles. They're only saying the fact that God in His impenetrable sovereignty choses to us them for some purpose does not justify the way in which they were made nor does it justify their reproduction.[/quote]

It certainly does. 

"What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy”  Acts 10:15.
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« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2011, 07:19:35 PM »


It certainly does.  

"What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy”  Acts 10:15.
1 Samuel 19:23-24
Quote
So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?"

And compare:

Numbers 21:19
Quote
So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

with

2 Kings 18:4
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He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan)

The bronze serpent is also significant as an example ANE sympathetic magic like with Jacob and the goats of Laban. Just because God used this sort of ritual in a few instances does not mean He'll bless us for performing sympathetic magic today.
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« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2011, 10:40:18 PM »

The Virgin of Guadalupe is an image not made by hands so not an apt comparison. 
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« Reply #105 on: December 08, 2011, 12:04:09 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I would say that there is probably no city in this world more so dedicated to the Virgin Mary then Los Angeles, shrines and murals to La Virgen de Guadalupe saturate practically every corner store, blank wall, and front yard altar across every square inch of this town, from the Valley southbound to the South Bay, from Long Beach northbound to East L.A., Our Lady is everywhere in this city, steadily reminding people by Her apparition that Our Lord is with us, that Her prayers are with us, that God is real.  This is a crazy city, and if it weren't for Our Lady, many more of us might come up dead or missing than already occurs.  Like Bob Marley sang, "the youth them live it big today tomorrow buried in a casket.."


One thing that continually keeps me going any given day in this city is to walk around and see Our Lady plastered everywhere.  Further, it legitimizes the entire Chicano/Mexican experience, gives an outlook for indigenous expression of faith, and is a true miracle.  If folks don't want to accept that Our Lady made a relationship with Mexico because it is a Roman Catholic doctrine, that is fine and they are free to assume such, however we here in Los Angeles and Mexico understand from the depths of our hearts the reality of this vision.  We in the Ethiopian Tradition also have a similar story and relationship with Our Lady, known as the Kidane Mehret, which is the Covenant of Mercy, and we can then relate readily to the Mexican situation.  Brown and black folks are part of the Church too, and apparitions and visions of Our Lady are not exclusive to Eastern Europe Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Thank you, Habte, for pointing this out about Los Angeles.  Whatever its drawbacks are, much of its population is very devoted to the Mother of God.  When you are in the city, you do see her image painted in murals almost everywhere.

This reminds me of a time I had a job in downtown many years ago.  It was an area not far from Olvera Street.  I had to walk a few blocks every day between my workplace and a parking lot, and I recall a very tall mural on the side of a building that I would pass on the way.  It was a huge painting, at least a few stories high, of the Mother of God in the style of the Virgin of Guadalupe.  Her back was to the street, but she looked over her shoulder at the city with large eyes that were both sad and wise.  On her cloak was what I think was the original name of the City of Los Angeles.  Neither my memory, nor my Spanish are that good, but I seem to recall it being something like:  El Pueblo de Neustra Senora La Reina de Los Angeles.  
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« Reply #106 on: December 12, 2011, 01:27:19 AM »

A photo of the recent visit by His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) and his delegation to Archbishop Pierre Christopher, Papal Nuncio to Mexico. They are photographed in front of a copy of the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/pictures/images/12archbpkyrillmexico11_33_jpg.jpg
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« Reply #107 on: December 12, 2011, 02:38:06 AM »

A photo of the recent visit by His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) and his delegation to Archbishop Pierre Christopher, Papal Nuncio to Mexico. They are photographed in front of a copy of the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/pictures/images/12archbpkyrillmexico11_33_jpg.jpg

I would have killed to watch Archbishop Kirill during that visit!   laugh
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« Reply #108 on: December 12, 2011, 08:03:00 AM »

A photo of the recent visit by His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) and his delegation to Archbishop Pierre Christopher, Papal Nuncio to Mexico. They are photographed in front of a copy of the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/pictures/images/12archbpkyrillmexico11_33_jpg.jpg

Your point?
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« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2011, 12:26:53 PM »

A photo of the recent visit by His Eminence Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) and his delegation to Archbishop Pierre Christopher, Papal Nuncio to Mexico. They are photographed in front of a copy of the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/pictures/images/12archbpkyrillmexico11_33_jpg.jpg

Your point?

Blessed feast day!!! May Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Theotokos of Tepeyac, have you always under her mantle.
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« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2011, 05:12:58 AM »

As a Mexican and Orthodox Christian, I become dissapointed when I see how (almost every year) this topic unmasks the WASP-like chauvinism of some people who take this as a yearly opportunity to show their distate for the Mexican people.

Orthodox Mexican communities are not entirely Byzantine. The Greek-Byzantine tradition is used by the Antiochians (who are almost entirely of Lebanese descent and are a minority among the Lebanese-Arabs of Mexico, who tend to be Maronite or Roman-Catholic) and by the Constantinople Patriarchate (its Diocese has almost vanished from the country, they have only a handful of followers scattered in two or three cities).

Most Orthodox Christians worship according to the Slavonic liturgical tradition and are ethnic-Mexicans. This includes the Mexican Exarchate of the OCA and even the Russian-Patriarchate parish in Nepantla, served by a Mexican priest and whose parishioners consider themselves to be Mexicans of Russian descent who have preserved their Orthodox faith but did not keep the Russian language and culture. The ROCOR tries to serve the Russian inmigrant community and they tend to be more ethnic.

Going back to the topic, most of those who criticize the veneration of this icon, have never investigated about its origin, its history and its miraculous contribution to convert our Natives (who practiced the worst forms of Pagan and devil worship) to Christianity (it isn't our fault that the Spanish-Romanists landed here instead of the Greek-Byzantines!).

It is incredible how someone even intended to relate the "Inmaculate Conception doctrine" of the Romanist Church with "crushing the head of the serpent". The place where the Apparition is said to have taken place, was originally a place of Pagan-worship. "Crushing the head of the serpent" actually means to CRUSH PAGANISM as the Aztecs worshipped the serpent-god.

That comment wasn't only a sign of ignorance but also a gross sign of disrespect.

You should at least try to read the narration of the Apparitions (the Codex Nican Mopohua) and investigate about the meanings of Our Lady's attire, her sayings, the way she introduced herself to the people, the way the stars are positioned, what can be seen in the eyes of the Virgin and the Christ-centered spirit that fills this tradition.

The name "Guadalupe" is not the correct name. It is an adaptation of the nahuatl name imposed by the Spanish clergy who wanted to make this veneration acceptable to the Spanish soldiers of the early period of the conquest who came from Extremadura, where there was a statue of Our Lady whose name is "Guadalupe". That statue does not look like Our Lady of Guadalupe of Mexico. The reason why this topic became a hot issue was related to an interview given by the East-German Communist and former PRI-appointed abbot of Our Lady's Basilica in Mexico City, a wicked man who probably didn't even believe in God.

There is no need to have a feast in our calendar as it's not forbidden to celebrate an Acathist for Our Lady. Most Orthodox Mexicans do not like when someone attempts to bring division among us by using this topic.

Weren't our Natives as worthy of receiving a message from the Mother of God as the Egyptians, the Byzantines, the Russians, etc.? This has nothing to do with Romanism-Modernism being the "True Church" as this is no longer believed by most Christians in Mexico.

Let us not forget that some currently Orthodox areas of Europe were originally Evangelized by Latins (the Gallican traditions survives in some parts of Ardeal, the Albanian coasts, etc.) The Spanish did their best to Christianize our people, despite the flaws and hetherodox interpretations of the Romanist Church. The fact that we received Christianity from the Westerners (who at that time weren't as decadent as they are now) does not mean that the faith cannot be brought to them without attacking all what was done in the past.

If even the Romanists have made clear that believing in the Apparitions is not obligatory for its members, who are we to get involved in that kind of polemics? We are not Protestants, we are not rationalists, we are not polemicists. What we must try is to be Christians and bring the faith to the people of the Americas.
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« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2011, 05:37:54 AM »

Quote
Going back to the topic, most of those who criticize the veneration of this icon, have never investigated about its origin, its history and its miraculous contribution to convert our Natives (who practiced the worst forms of Pagan and devil worship) to Christianity (it isn't our fault that the Spanish-Romanists landed here instead of the Greek-Byzantines!).

The fact remains that this image, and the vision which led to the image, did not arise from Orthodox tradition. It may be part of Mexican popular culture, and venerated by those of Roman Catholic faith, but it cannot be venerated as an Orthodox icon.

And, for the record, there is no WASP in my ancestry.
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« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2011, 03:11:40 PM »

Quote
The fact remains that this image, and the vision which led to the image, did not arise from Orthodox tradition. It may be part of Mexican popular culture, and venerated by those of Roman Catholic faith, but it cannot be venerated as an Orthodox icon.

In your view, what are the qualifications for something to be venerated as an Orthodox icon? Would it be permissible to venerate this?

What about this?
 
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« Reply #113 on: December 14, 2011, 03:35:35 PM »

It is incredible how someone even intended to relate the "Inmaculate Conception doctrine" of the Romanist Church with "crushing the head of the serpent". The place where the Apparition is said to have taken place, was originally a place of Pagan-worship. "Crushing the head of the serpent" actually means to CRUSH PAGANISM as the Aztecs worshipped the serpent-god.

That comment wasn't only a sign of ignorance but also a gross sign of disrespect.
To be fair, the followers of the Vatican themselves make this connection between the IC and the serpent (it is in Ineffibilis Deus, after all).  I point that out as someone who takes great issue with the IC, but has no problem with Guadalupe (particularly the original image:the moon etc, has been painted on top of it).
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« Reply #114 on: December 14, 2011, 03:44:01 PM »

I Believe that The Image of the Virgen de Guadalupe is just another face of one of the many Earth Goddesess that the natives worshipped ,that the catholic church fell for, lock, stock, and barrel ,in it's endless search and love of Talking Apparitions...I rebuke and reject this Apparition and image,As All Orthodox Christians Should, it's not Orthodox  police........http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/bron/PDF--Christianity/Lorentzen--Virgin%20of%20Guadalupe.pdf
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« Reply #115 on: December 14, 2011, 04:18:25 PM »

Blessed feast day!!! May Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Theotokos of Tepeyac, have you always under her mantle.

Amen. Although I don't venerate Our Lady of Guadalupe, I think it's a beautiful story.
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« Reply #116 on: December 14, 2011, 05:37:09 PM »

I Believe that The Image of the Virgen de Guadalupe is just another face of one of the many Earth Goddesess

Funny, that's what lots of people say about us and our veneration of the Virgin in general.
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« Reply #117 on: December 14, 2011, 07:04:54 PM »

And all the talking apparitions Orthodoxy is replete with...
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« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2011, 07:52:09 PM »

Quote
In your view, what are the qualifications for something to be venerated as an Orthodox icon? Would it be permissible to venerate this?

Over several years I have extensively expressed many of the criteria which make an image a proper Orthodox icon worthy of veneration. You may wish to examine my posts in this regard.  police

In short, there should be complete correlation and harmony between what is depicted on the image, and the scriptural, liturgical (including hymnographic) and doctrinal tradition of the Orthodox church. The San Damiano crucifix, like much very early Renaissance religious art, does not contradict Orthodox tradition. The image of the Virgin of Guadalupe does, for reasons I have expressed previously.
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« Reply #119 on: December 14, 2011, 09:52:09 PM »

Quote
In short, there should be complete correlation and harmony between what is depicted on the image, and the scriptural, liturgical (including hymnographic) and doctrinal tradition of the Orthodox church. The San Damiano crucifix, like much very early Renaissance religious art, does not contradict Orthodox tradition. The image of the Virgin of Guadalupe does, for reasons I have expressed previously.

Funny; I've read through the entire thread, and can't find where you pointed out what was wrong with the image itself. Your objection seems to be that it doesn't have an Orthodox origin. The San Damiano crucifix doesn't have an Orthodox origin, yet you say it doesn't contradict Orthodox tradition. The second picture I posted *does* have an Orthodox origin (it's from Christ the Savior cathedral). Plenty of saints had no problem with it.

So what about the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe itself is objectionable, as opposed to its origin?
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« Reply #120 on: December 15, 2011, 12:20:26 AM »

Quote
In short, there should be complete correlation and harmony between what is depicted on the image, and the scriptural, liturgical (including hymnographic) and doctrinal tradition of the Orthodox church. The San Damiano crucifix, like much very early Renaissance religious art, does not contradict Orthodox tradition. The image of the Virgin of Guadalupe does, for reasons I have expressed previously.

Funny; I've read through the entire thread, and can't find where you pointed out what was wrong with the image itself. Your objection seems to be that it doesn't have an Orthodox origin. The San Damiano crucifix doesn't have an Orthodox origin, yet you say it doesn't contradict Orthodox tradition. The second picture I posted *does* have an Orthodox origin (it's from Christ the Savior cathedral). Plenty of saints had no problem with it.

So what about the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe itself is objectionable, as opposed to its origin?

A few brief points:

1. She is portrayed alone, without reference to her Son and God.

2. She is bereft of the three stars of perpetual virginity on the forehead and shoulders of her mantle. This motif has been a requirement on all her icons since at least the aftermath of the Third Ecumenical Council, as a proclamation of the dogma of her ever-virginity.

3. The vision which led to the manifestation of the Guadalupe image came from outside of Orthodox tradition. Deal with it.

4. The presence of uncanonical images in Christ the Savior Cathedral does not confer canonicity upon them. The cathedral also has an "icon" of St Juliana Lazarevskaya with her right hand raised, fingers arranged in the IC-XC configuration reserved only for ordained priests and consecrated bishops. And I need not explain yet again why the image of a bearded God the Father in the cupola is heretical, when the Church has denounced such imagery time and time again since at least the time of St John of Damascus.

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« Reply #121 on: December 15, 2011, 03:02:20 AM »

Isn't she portrayed alone in the Pokrov icon.
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« Reply #122 on: December 15, 2011, 04:00:38 AM »

Answers to LBK's few brief points:

Quote
1. She is portrayed alone, without reference to her Son and God.

She's not portrayed alone, the Virgin is pregnant. You can't understand this because it is not your culture. This Icon did not appear in Greece but in Mexico among the Nahua peoples whose culture was entirely distinct from that of the Western nations. They did understand that the Virgin was pregnant (and that the child inside her womb, was the Omnipotent God Himself) because of her attire and because of other signs that were obvious for the Nahua peoples and not so relevant for us Westerners.

Unfortunately as I am not in regular contact with experts on the matter (who are mostly Roman Catholics), I haven't been able to request books and investigate about the signs and the meanings. However, I will do my best to investigate them and write a more detailed explanation.

Quote
2. She is bereft of the three stars of perpetual virginity on the forehead and shoulders of her mantle. This motif has been a requirement on all her icons since at least the aftermath of the Third Ecumenical Council, as a proclamation of the dogma of her ever-virginity.

Please try to be realistic. Could you expect the Nahua peoples to care about this Council when they were used to sacrificing their children to devils by taking their hearts out of their chests, flaying them alive, making them fight against real warriors with fabric weapons while they were tied to a stone? The Spaniards did everything to make them abandon these practices and these beliefs, even violence and brutality could not stop them from doing what they were doing. To say that the icon was a mere trick by the Spanish to explode and sack our country seems unfair. If that had been their only intention, they would have chosen the path that your "Pioneers" chose to impose their rule in this Continent (that is, to destroy every Native tribe, take their land, take more land from other Europeans who weren't that clever and bring "freedom" to all of us. This was not the case, there was no Spanish-style "New Zion" or "Promised Land". The Spanish, in spite of their abuses, saw the Natives as human beings who deserved to receive the Gospel and become good Christians.

Quote
3. The vision which led to the manifestation of the Guadalupe image came from outside of Orthodox tradition. Deal with it.

I still wonder why God allowed the Spanish Christians to land in Mexico instead of the Byzantine-Greeks or the Russians. But who are we to challenge God's will? If our Lord disposed our peoples to become Christian through the Romanist Church, there's nothing we can do about it. The Romanist Church of that time wasn't as bad as the modern one, it did civilize the people, it gave them knowledge of God, of Christ, of modesty, of values, etc. Who knows? Maybe God allowed this in order to prepare our people to receive the whole faith at some point in history, now that most people are aware that the Romanist Church is not the true Church.

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« Reply #123 on: December 15, 2011, 04:18:00 AM »

Isn't she portrayed alone in the Pokrov icon.

No, she is not, or, better said, should not be. In these icons, a motif of Christ blessing is found in the upper border of the icon, or directly above the figure of the Mother of God, or, least commonly, in an upper corner. Here are some examples:







In icons of another historical event, the Visitation to St Sergius of Radonezh, the Holy Trinity (the one associated with Andrei Rublyev) is often painted in the upper border, instead of Christ.
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« Reply #124 on: December 15, 2011, 04:26:21 AM »

Ok. Thanks.
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« Reply #125 on: December 15, 2011, 04:48:21 AM »

A few brief replies to a few points in Mexican's post:

Quote
She's not portrayed alone, the Virgin is pregnant.

In Orthodox icons of the Annunciation, and of the Meeting of the Virgin with Righteous Elizabeth, the Mother of God is also pregnant in time. However, iconography never shows her with a visibly bulging belly. The closest is the 12th century icon known as the Ustiug Annunciation, which shows the infant Christ over her body, in a manner similar to the icons of the Mother of God of the Sign, the latter which very clearly expresses her conception and bearing of the incarnate Son of God.

Quote
You can't understand this because it is not your culture.

This seems rather patronising, don't you think? People have come to Orthodoxy from every culture imaginable, and most have little trouble acquiring an understanding of the "language" of proper iconography, just as they are quite capable of understanding the liturgical cycle, if taught properly. See my comment above on the icons of the Virgin of the Sign.

Quote
Please try to be realistic. Could you expect the Nahua peoples to care about this Council when they were used to sacrificing their children to devils by taking their hearts out of their chests, flaying them alive, making them fight against real warriors with fabric weapons while they were tied to a stone?

It was not essential for the peoples in question to know of the existence of the Council. It was essential that they were taught the doctrine this Council proclaimed.

Quote
To say that the icon was a mere trick by the Spanish to explode and sack our country seems unfair.

Show me where I have said anything remotely like this.  Huh It's not good form to put words in anyone's mouth.
 
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« Reply #126 on: December 15, 2011, 05:39:10 AM »

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You can't understand this because it is not your culture.

This seems rather patronising, don't you think?

LBK,

Not as patronizing as your comment back to him.

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This seems rather patronising, don't you think? People have come to Orthodoxy from every culture imaginable, and most have little trouble acquiring an understanding of the "language" of proper iconography, just as they are quite capable of understanding the liturgical cycle, if taught properly.

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Please try to be realistic. Could you expect the Nahua peoples to care about this Council when they were used to sacrificing their children to devils by taking their hearts out of their chests, flaying them alive, making them fight against real warriors with fabric weapons while they were tied to a stone?

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It was not essential for the peoples in question to know of the existence of the Council. It was essential that they were taught the doctrine this Council proclaimed.

As Mexican said, please try to be realistic. You aren't trying.

Many years,

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« Reply #127 on: December 15, 2011, 07:16:51 AM »

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As Mexican said, please try to be realistic. You aren't trying.

The Nahua aren't the only peoples in the world whose culture featured what we would call savage or belligerent practices who were successfully brought to the Christian faith. Try again, my friend.

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« Reply #128 on: December 17, 2011, 12:50:54 AM »

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As Mexican said, please try to be realistic. You aren't trying.

The Nahua aren't the only peoples in the world whose culture featured what we would call savage or belligerent practices who were successfully brought to the Christian faith. Try again, my friend.



If the Church can Christianize the cult of Perun with the cult of St. Elijah the Thunderer, can it not Christianize a much more explicitly Christian image such as the Virgin of Guadalupe?
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« Reply #129 on: December 17, 2011, 03:04:10 AM »

The Mother of God, with crown, seems to have ancient credentials



And also modern credentials.   The icon of the Reigning Mother of God was revealed by our holy Mother herself in March 1917.   Obviously she approves of being crowned.  Can we deny her?  Can we remove her crown and also thrust her out of her throne?

The "Enthroned" (or "Reigning") Icon of the Mother of God appeared on March 2, 1917, the day of Tsar Nicholas's abdication, in the village of Kolomskoye near Moscow.

In February 1917, an elderly woman named Eudokia saw the Mother of God in a dream telling her to go to Kolomskoye to find a large blackened icon in a church. After the vision was repeated three times, she went to Kolomskoye to search for the icon with the priest Nicholas.

In the basement of the church they found the icon and started wiping off the accumulated dust. Then they were able to see the Most Holy Theotokos wearing a crown and sitting on a throne. Immediately, Father Nicholas celebrated a service of Thanksgiving and an Akathist...
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/enthroned-or-reigning-icon-of-mother-of.html


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« Reply #130 on: December 17, 2011, 03:42:57 AM »

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As Mexican said, please try to be realistic. You aren't trying.

The Nahua aren't the only peoples in the world whose culture featured what we would call savage or belligerent practices who were successfully brought to the Christian faith. Try again, my friend.



If the Church can Christianize the cult of Perun with the cult of St. Elijah the Thunderer, can it not Christianize a much more explicitly Christian image such as the Virgin of Guadalupe?

Prophet Elijah was a real, historical person. Perun was a pagan deity who never existed as a living human being. To use them as analogues is no different from saying the Mother of God is an analogue of Isis or some other goddess.
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« Reply #131 on: December 17, 2011, 08:05:10 AM »

LBK, how do you respond to Deacon Lance's usage of Acts 10:5 in this context? I don't see a way around it.
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« Reply #132 on: December 17, 2011, 10:20:10 AM »

So images are only holy, if they follow eastern cultural standards. Got it.

I never realized the shear holy power of the eastern culture.
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« Reply #133 on: December 17, 2011, 10:22:33 AM »

Wrong emphasis. It's Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #134 on: December 17, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »

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So images are only holy, if they follow eastern cultural standards. Got it.

Wrong. Images are holy if they proclaim and express what the Orthodox Church teaches. Have I not made this point often enough in so many of my posts on this forum?
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« Reply #135 on: December 17, 2011, 05:33:12 PM »

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So images are only holy, if they follow eastern cultural standards. Got it.

Wrong. Images are holy if they proclaim and express what the Orthodox Church teaches. Have I not made this point often enough in so many of my posts on this forum?

You mean the Orthodox Church actually has a definite teaching on anything? I'm shocked.
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« Reply #136 on: December 18, 2011, 03:10:41 AM »

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So images are only holy, if they follow eastern cultural standards. Got it.

Wrong. Images are holy if they proclaim and express what the Orthodox Church teaches. Have I not made this point often enough in so many of my posts on this forum?

You mean the Orthodox Church actually has a definite teaching on anything? I'm shocked.

hardy har har...
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« Reply #137 on: December 18, 2011, 04:20:20 AM »

I guess if the 1917 icon of the Theotokos enthroned can be miraculously created by God as a non canonical icon, then so can the Virgen de Guadalupe. He makes the rules, He can break them if He wants to.

So we could say the Virgen de Guadalupe is a specific type of icon all its own and its features are not to be transferred to other icons. It quite simply is what it is.
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« Reply #138 on: December 18, 2011, 05:56:14 AM »

Wrong emphasis. It's Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox.

QFT. Also, thank you for new Faith status. police
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« Reply #139 on: December 18, 2011, 10:29:00 AM »

I guess if the 1917 icon of the Theotokos enthroned can be miraculously created by God as a non canonical icon, then so can the Virgen de Guadalupe. He makes the rules, He can break them if He wants to.

So we could say the Virgen de Guadalupe is a specific type of icon all its own and its features are not to be transferred to other icons. It quite simply is what it is.

False analogy. The Derzhavnaya which Irish Hermit referred to was an old, existing icon painted a good century or more before its rediscovery in 1917. Olifa, the traditional oil varnish used for icons, darkens with time, the darkening accelerating in the presence of soot and vapor given off by oil lamps and candlAfter about 50 years, the appearance is usually still recognizable, but noticeably darkened. After a century or two, many icons are almost black. It was common practice for blackened icons to be repainted over the top of the existing image; the new icon may or may not have borne the same subject matter as the original. Repeated overpaintings were common, so that a board which might have been painted in, say, the 16th century, might have been repainted three or four times by the twentieth century.

The time of the painting of the Derzhavnaya coincided with the height of the naturalistic, Synodal/Academic style which had all but obliterated traditional iconography. It is what it is, and I have never said that it is, in itself, uncanonical (there are many variants of the Mother of God Enthroned type), though the motif of God the Father in it is still problematic. However, it seems that God chose to use this imperfect vessel at that particular point in time to manifest His presence.

OTOH, the Guadalupe image remains outside Orthodox tradition. It never was part of it, and is highly unlikely it ever will be. This status has nothing at all to do with "Eastern culture". I make no apologies for saying this.
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« Reply #140 on: December 19, 2011, 12:47:22 AM »

Wrong emphasis. It's Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox.

QFT. Also, thank you for new Faith status. police
Thanks  Smiley
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« Reply #141 on: December 19, 2011, 12:48:53 AM »

I guess if the 1917 icon of the Theotokos enthroned can be miraculously created by God as a non canonical icon, then so can the Virgen de Guadalupe. He makes the rules, He can break them if He wants to.

So we could say the Virgen de Guadalupe is a specific type of icon all its own and its features are not to be transferred to other icons. It quite simply is what it is.

False analogy. The Derzhavnaya which Irish Hermit referred to was an old, existing icon painted a good century or more before its rediscovery in 1917. Olifa, the traditional oil varnish used for icons, darkens with time, the darkening accelerating in the presence of soot and vapor given off by oil lamps and candlAfter about 50 years, the appearance is usually still recognizable, but noticeably darkened. After a century or two, many icons are almost black. It was common practice for blackened icons to be repainted over the top of the existing image; the new icon may or may not have borne the same subject matter as the original. Repeated overpaintings were common, so that a board which might have been painted in, say, the 16th century, might have been repainted three or four times by the twentieth century.

The time of the painting of the Derzhavnaya coincided with the height of the naturalistic, Synodal/Academic style which had all but obliterated traditional iconography. It is what it is, and I have never said that it is, in itself, uncanonical (there are many variants of the Mother of God Enthroned type), though the motif of God the Father in it is still problematic. However, it seems that God chose to use this imperfect vessel at that particular point in time to manifest His presence.

OTOH, the Guadalupe image remains outside Orthodox tradition. It never was part of it, and is highly unlikely it ever will be. This status has nothing at all to do with "Eastern culture". I make no apologies for saying this.
Oh ok. I was under the impression it was an icon made with hands.
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« Reply #142 on: December 19, 2011, 07:42:07 AM »

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Oh ok. I was under the impression it was an icon made with hands.

Just to clarify: The Derzhavnaya was indeed originally painted, not "not made by hands" as a few have been. It then went "missing" and was forgotten about some time later, to be rediscovered in 1917 through the efforts of the woman Evdokia, where it was cleaned to reveal the image under the darkening.
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« Reply #143 on: December 19, 2011, 10:27:11 AM »

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Oh ok. I was under the impression it was an icon made with hands.

Just to clarify: The Derzhavnaya was indeed originally painted, not "not made by hands" as a few have been. It then went "missing" and was forgotten about some time later, to be rediscovered in 1917 through the efforts of the woman Evdokia, where it was cleaned to reveal the image under the darkening.
Ooops, typo. My post should have read, "not made by hands."
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« Reply #144 on: December 22, 2011, 01:29:52 AM »

So, going back to Deacon Lance's point vis a vis Acts 10:5 in post #102, if God works genuine miracles via the Virgen de Guadalupe (or even a non-canonical Orthodox icon such as the Sitka Mother of God) why doesn't this sanctify the previous errors in the composition and origin?
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« Reply #145 on: December 22, 2011, 12:27:41 PM »

So, going back to Deacon Lance's point vis a vis Acts 10:5 in post #102, if God works genuine miracles via the Virgen de Guadalupe (or even a non-canonical Orthodox icon such as the Sitka Mother of God) why doesn't this sanctify the previous errors in the composition and origin?

If the grace of God operates through non-Orthodox things, people, and churches, it does so in spite of the errors. Error cannot be sanctified. You can't call what is wrong right just because good happened through what was wrong. If someone comes to such a state of repentance after committing murder, for example, so that he works miracles, it does not mean that the murder was good or a right thing.
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« Reply #146 on: December 22, 2011, 12:30:20 PM »

So, going back to Deacon Lance's point vis a vis Acts 10:5 in post #102, if God works genuine miracles via the Virgen de Guadalupe (or even a non-canonical Orthodox icon such as the Sitka Mother of God) why doesn't this sanctify the previous errors in the composition and origin?

If the grace of God operates through non-Orthodox things, people, and churches, it does so in spite of the errors. Error cannot be sanctified. You can't call what is wrong right just because good happened through what was wrong. If someone comes to such a state of repentance after committing murder, for example, so that he works miracles, it does not mean that the murder was good or a right thing.

I think your analogy here is quite flawed, but I'll let those who have a stake in this elaborate.  Suffice to say, comparing the Sitka Mother of God to a repentant murderer is a stretch, to say the least.
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« Reply #147 on: December 22, 2011, 12:36:50 PM »

So, going back to Deacon Lance's point vis a vis Acts 10:5 in post #102, if God works genuine miracles via the Virgen de Guadalupe (or even a non-canonical Orthodox icon such as the Sitka Mother of God) why doesn't this sanctify the previous errors in the composition and origin?

If the grace of God operates through non-Orthodox things, people, and churches, it does so in spite of the errors. Error cannot be sanctified. You can't call what is wrong right just because good happened through what was wrong. If someone comes to such a state of repentance after committing murder, for example, so that he works miracles, it does not mean that the murder was good or a right thing.

I think your analogy here is quite flawed, but I'll let those who have a stake in this elaborate.  Suffice to say, comparing the Sitka Mother of God to a repentant murderer is a stretch, to say the least.

You misunderstand me. The previous poster mentioned Sitka. I have no problem at all with that icon. I was referring to Guadalupe, and in general, to the other churches and their miracles, etc, and grace. Reread.
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« Reply #148 on: December 22, 2011, 12:59:30 PM »

I still think it's a stretch to equate the Virgin of Guadalupe with an ex-murderer, but mostly I was asking in relation to Acts 10:5. "What God has cleansed, do not call common."
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« Reply #149 on: December 22, 2011, 01:05:35 PM »

So, going back to Deacon Lance's point vis a vis Acts 10:5 in post #102, if God works genuine miracles via the Virgen de Guadalupe (or even a non-canonical Orthodox icon such as the Sitka Mother of God) why doesn't this sanctify the previous errors in the composition and origin?

If the grace of God operates through non-Orthodox things, people, and churches, it does so in spite of the errors. Error cannot be sanctified. You can't call what is wrong right just because good happened through what was wrong. If someone comes to such a state of repentance after committing murder, for example, so that he works miracles, it does not mean that the murder was good or a right thing.

I think your analogy here is quite flawed, but I'll let those who have a stake in this elaborate.  Suffice to say, comparing the Sitka Mother of God to a repentant murderer is a stretch, to say the least.

You misunderstand me. The previous poster mentioned Sitka. I have no problem at all with that icon. I was referring to Guadalupe, and in general, to the other churches and their miracles, etc, and grace. Reread.

YOU may not have a problem with it, but it is clearly an erroneous, non-canonical icon.  It is therefore de facto "non-Orthodox".
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« Reply #150 on: December 22, 2011, 01:26:30 PM »

I still think it's a stretch to equate the Virgin of Guadalupe with an ex-murderer, but mostly I was asking in relation to Acts 10:5. "What God has cleansed, do not call common."

Ugh. I was talking about the grace of God, and ways that it works through things sometimes in spite of problems.
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« Reply #151 on: December 23, 2011, 02:39:29 AM »

I'm sorry if I offended. I just found the comparison repugnant in it's extremity.
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« Reply #152 on: December 23, 2011, 06:17:03 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


If the grace of God operates through non-Orthodox things, people, and churches, it does so in spite of the errors. Error cannot be sanctified. You can't call what is wrong right just because good happened through what was wrong. If someone comes to such a state of repentance after committing murder, for example, so that he works miracles, it does not mean that the murder was good or a right thing.

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This is the exact same point I was trying to make in regards to Orthodox Sacramental Marriage vs Evangelical Symbolic Marriage and the capital "G" Grace of God Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #153 on: December 23, 2011, 07:10:13 PM »

I'm sorry if I offended. I just found the comparison repugnant in it's extremity.

I wasn't trying to be extreme, sorry. I was merely trying to say how something which is mistaken and imperfect can be a vehicle for grace, but it doesn't mean that thing is no longer mistaken or imperfect.
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« Reply #154 on: December 23, 2011, 09:14:28 PM »

Ok. No problem.

Deacon Lance, LBK? What do you guys think?
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« Reply #155 on: December 23, 2011, 11:04:17 PM »

Shanghaiski summed it up pretty well.
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« Reply #156 on: December 24, 2011, 12:06:25 AM »

He is exactly right.  Error can't be sanctified.  So if an Icon is sanctified it must not be an error.  The error is with  man-made rules denying grace where it is found.
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« Reply #157 on: December 24, 2011, 03:07:32 AM »

This is what Shanghaiski wrote:

Quote
I was merely trying to say how something which is mistaken and imperfect can be a vehicle for grace, but it doesn't mean that thing is no longer mistaken or imperfect.

This is what Deacon Lance wrote in response to it:
Quote
He is exactly right.  Error can't be sanctified.  So if an Icon is sanctified it must not be an error.  The error is with  man-made rules denying grace where it is found.

For the life of me, I can't understand how the latter draws such a conclusion from the former.  Huh Huh
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« Reply #158 on: December 24, 2011, 06:08:56 PM »

Deacon Lance is saying if something is sanctified, it obviously is error-free, since error cannot be sanctified. Where one chooses to deny a miracle or grace in something due to man-made rules, the problem is with that person, not the thing they reject.
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« Reply #159 on: December 24, 2011, 06:33:29 PM »

Who here is denying the miracles? All she is saying is that miracles and grace working through something don't mean the thing is sanctified.

Deacon Lance and I came to an impasse on this with my point about the brass serpent. I'm still thinking about his point. Kind of hard to carry on a conversation if we're just assuming the Virgen de Guadalupe was, in fact, made without hands...
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« Reply #160 on: December 24, 2011, 09:30:18 PM »

This is what Shanghaiski wrote:

Quote
I was merely trying to say how something which is mistaken and imperfect can be a vehicle for grace, but it doesn't mean that thing is no longer mistaken or imperfect.

This is what Deacon Lance wrote in response to it:
Quote
He is exactly right.  Error can't be sanctified.  So if an Icon is sanctified it must not be an error.  The error is with  man-made rules denying grace where it is found.

For the life of me, I can't understand how the latter draws such a conclusion from the former.  Huh Huh
It would've been so much easier had LBK been present when the Madonna transferred her image onto St.Juan Diego's tilma to ensure she did so according to "Orthodox" guidelines.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #161 on: December 24, 2011, 09:55:11 PM »

This is what Shanghaiski wrote:

Quote
I was merely trying to say how something which is mistaken and imperfect can be a vehicle for grace, but it doesn't mean that thing is no longer mistaken or imperfect.

This is what Deacon Lance wrote in response to it:
Quote
He is exactly right.  Error can't be sanctified.  So if an Icon is sanctified it must not be an error.  The error is with  man-made rules denying grace where it is found.

For the life of me, I can't understand how the latter draws such a conclusion from the former.  Huh Huh
It would've been so much easier had LBK been present when the Madonna transferred her image onto St.Juan Diego's tilma to ensure she did so according to "Orthodox" guidelines.  Roll Eyes
That does assUme that she did so.
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« Reply #162 on: December 24, 2011, 10:43:06 PM »

Indeed.
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« Reply #163 on: December 25, 2011, 09:24:16 PM »

I realize some, perhaps most, do not accept that the Virgin of Guadalupe is an icon not made by hands as I do but the point applies equally to miraculous Icons that do not follow the medieval Russian rules.
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« Reply #164 on: December 25, 2011, 11:23:05 PM »

(or even a non-canonical Orthodox icon such as the Sitka Mother of God)
What canon?
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« Reply #165 on: December 26, 2011, 12:06:18 AM »

(or even a non-canonical Orthodox icon such as the Sitka Mother of God)
What canon?
It shows God the Father.
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« Reply #166 on: December 26, 2011, 12:35:59 AM »

(or even a non-canonical Orthodox icon such as the Sitka Mother of God)
What canon?
It shows God the Father.
What canon forbids it?
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« Reply #167 on: December 26, 2011, 01:08:00 AM »

The 1666 Council of the Hundred Chapters, either canon 2 or 3.
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« Reply #168 on: December 26, 2011, 01:14:43 AM »

The 1666 Council of the Hundred Chapters, either canon 2 or 3.

Are these ecumenical canons?
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« Reply #169 on: December 26, 2011, 03:15:01 AM »

No, but I believe they're widely accepted.
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« Reply #170 on: December 29, 2011, 11:29:53 PM »

No, but I believe they're widely accepted.

The main purpose of the 1666 council was condemning the Old Rite. Since the Old Rite is once again approved I'd say the legitimacy of the council in general is doubtful. With the politically motivated deposition of Patriarch Nikon, this council also represents an unwelcome incursion of the Moscow state into the life of the Church which bore much evil fruit in subsequent centuries.

If the canons were really so universally received then it's a wonder that no one enforces them.
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« Reply #171 on: December 30, 2011, 09:00:01 AM »

No, but I believe they're widely accepted.

The main purpose of the 1666 council was condemning the Old Rite. Since the Old Rite is once again approved I'd say the legitimacy of the council in general is doubtful. With the politically motivated deposition of Patriarch Nikon, this council also represents an unwelcome incursion of the Moscow state into the life of the Church which bore much evil fruit in subsequent centuries.

If the canons were really so universally received then it's a wonder that no one enforces them.

You are forgetting the many patristic denunciations and condemnations of depicting God the Father in icons in the centuries before the 1666 Russian council. St John of Damascus is particularly blunt in this condemnation, as is, IIRC, St Theodore of the Studion. Both are rightly pillars of the defense of icons against the iconoclast heresy. These are but two saints who held this view, there are many others. Some food for thought:

Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of the God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease from venerating the matter through which my salvation has been effected. (St John of Damascus)

No one could describe the Word of the Father; but when He took flesh from you, O Mother of God, He consented to be described, and restored the fallen image to its former state by uniting it to divine beauty. We confess and proclaim our salvation in word and images.(kontakion for the Sunday of Orthodoxy)

The kontakion is particularly pertinent: Has God the Father consented to be described? Has God the Father revealed Himself in any visible, tangible form? Only as a voice from heaven, at the baptism of Christ, and at Christ's Transfiguration. Can a voice be seen? Can it be depicted pictorially? No, it cannot. And He has certainly never manifested Himself as a bearded old man.
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« Reply #172 on: December 30, 2011, 09:23:37 AM »

No, but I believe they're widely accepted.

The main purpose of the 1666 council was condemning the Old Rite. Since the Old Rite is once again approved I'd say the legitimacy of the council in general is doubtful. With the politically motivated deposition of Patriarch Nikon, this council also represents an unwelcome incursion of the Moscow state into the life of the Church which bore much evil fruit in subsequent centuries.

If the canons were really so universally received then it's a wonder that no one enforces them.

You are forgetting the many patristic denunciations and condemnations of depicting God the Father in icons in the centuries before the 1666 Russian council. St John of Damascus is particularly blunt in this condemnation, as is, IIRC, St Theodore of the Studion. Both are rightly pillars of the defense of icons against the iconoclast heresy. These are but two saints who held this view, there are many others. Some food for thought:

Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of the God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease from venerating the matter through which my salvation has been effected. (St John of Damascus)

No one could describe the Word of the Father; but when He took flesh from you, O Mother of God, He consented to be described, and restored the fallen image to its former state by uniting it to divine beauty. We confess and proclaim our salvation in word and images.(kontakion for the Sunday of Orthodoxy)

The kontakion is particularly pertinent: Has God the Father consented to be described? Has God the Father revealed Himself in any visible, tangible form? Only as a voice from heaven, at the baptism of Christ, and at Christ's Transfiguration. Can a voice be seen? Can it be depicted pictorially? No, it cannot. And He has certainly never manifested Himself as a bearded old man.

I agree that the depictions of God the Father are questionable, but citing the 1666 council against them is problematic and weakens the case.
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« Reply #173 on: December 30, 2011, 09:27:19 AM »

Quote
I agree that the depictions of God the Father are questionable, but citing the 1666 council against them is problematic and weakens the case.

Why is citing the canon from this council "problematic" and "weakening the case"? Is the canon inconsistent with patristic and liturgical precedent?
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« Reply #174 on: December 30, 2011, 09:29:35 AM »

Quote
I agree that the depictions of God the Father are questionable, but citing the 1666 council against them is problematic and weakens the case.

Why is citing the canon from this council "problematic" and "weakening the case"? Is the canon inconsistent with patristic and liturgical precedent?

If you invoke the canonical authority of the 1666 council, you imply that all of its rulings are legitimate. The council was really a disaster for the Russian church.
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« Reply #175 on: December 30, 2011, 09:44:15 AM »

Quote
I agree that the depictions of God the Father are questionable, but citing the 1666 council against them is problematic and weakens the case.

Why is citing the canon from this council "problematic" and "weakening the case"? Is the canon inconsistent with patristic and liturgical precedent?

If you invoke the canonical authority of the 1666 council, you imply that all of its rulings are legitimate. The council was really a disaster for the Russian church.

The rulings of this council not concerned with iconography are irrelevant to this discussion. The iconographic canon from that council is consistent with the clear and unequivocal testimony of the church. Or do you wish to argue otherwise?
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« Reply #176 on: December 30, 2011, 10:39:16 AM »

Quote
I agree that the depictions of God the Father are questionable, but citing the 1666 council against them is problematic and weakens the case.

Why is citing the canon from this council "problematic" and "weakening the case"? Is the canon inconsistent with patristic and liturgical precedent?

If you invoke the canonical authority of the 1666 council, you imply that all of its rulings are legitimate. The council was really a disaster for the Russian church.

The rulings of this council not concerned with iconography are irrelevant to this discussion.

Binding canons come from binding councils. If you don't think the council is binding then its canonical rulings are irrelevant, regardless of their consistency with tradition. 
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« Reply #177 on: December 31, 2011, 01:57:05 PM »

We recognize the canons or at least the sentiments of canons and writings from several councils of dubious validity or outright heresy. Several Arian councils, I understand, opposed not only Orthodoxy, but papal supremacy. We, of course, reject the heresy and take the Orthodoxy, because we know our faith, which is enshrined not only in the Ecumenical Councils, but in all the received gifts of holy tradition, in totality.
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« Reply #178 on: December 31, 2011, 03:49:52 PM »

We recognize the canons or at least the sentiments of canons and writings from several councils of dubious validity or outright heresy. Several Arian councils, I understand, opposed not only Orthodoxy, but papal supremacy.

But do we cite these Arian councils in polemics against Papal supremacy?
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« Reply #179 on: December 31, 2011, 04:04:24 PM »

Binding canons come from binding councils. If you don't think the council is binding then its canonical rulings are irrelevant, regardless of their consistency with tradition. 

Things aren't always that simple. Consider the Council of Antioch (341), which is a mess to figure out. It's canons are accepted, yet a condemnation of St. Athanasius might have happened there (or at least been issued a sizable number of the bishops from the council speaking in it's name).
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« Reply #180 on: December 31, 2011, 04:43:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I understand that Images of God the Father were prohibited at the Seventh Council (The Second Council of Nicea) as part of the Iconoclast resolutions.  Since images of the Divine Godhead were condemned by the Iconoclasts, so much so that they condemned even Images of the Incarnate Son because of the Union of Divine-Human, and the Father remains Immaterial His images were prohibited to appease some of the Iconoclasts. 

Quote
Christians have never made an icon of the invisible and incomprehensible divinity, but it is only insofar as the Word became flesh and dwelt among us that we paint the mysteries of man’s redemption.”
http://www.symeon-anthony.info/Cathechism/con_error_icons_God_Father.html

I found this website on a google search, but when I read through the Seventh Council I couldn't find any references specifically to Images of the Father neither the above quotation.  Still, I had always heard that the Seventh Council prohibited Images of the Father.  If the above quote is correct, are there also images of the Holy Spirit in the Eastern Orthodox or are they also prohibited?

In the Ethiopian Orthodox we are Oriental so we are not part of those later Councils, and so we have images of both God the Father and also God the Holy Spirit depicted as a dove.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #181 on: December 31, 2011, 05:40:49 PM »

Quote
If the above quote is correct, are there also images of the Holy Spirit in the Eastern Orthodox or are they also prohibited?

The Holy Spirit can be depicted in EO icons, but only in the specific revealed form at specific instances. IOW, the Spirit can be shown in the form of a dove, but only in icons of Christ's Baptism, as it is in this form that the Spirit became manifest at that particular place and time. In icons of Pentecost, the Spirit is shown as tongues of fire descending on the Apostles. However, to portray the Spirit as a dove in any other icon is wrong: the Spirit is not a dove by nature, but immaterial, infinite, indescribable, as is God the Father. God the Son, in taking up human nature, becoming incarnate and living among us, can, and indeed must, be depicted iconographically, as a Child, or as a Man. The iconoclasts, in denying this, in effect denied and diminished the Incarnation.
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« Reply #182 on: December 31, 2011, 09:04:49 PM »

"When" did the Synaxis of the Archangels happen and what justifies portraying them as a bunch of winged men when they are the Bodiless Powers? What about portrait icons of angels?

If the Holy Spirit as a dove is only to be portrayed in the Theophany icon, then it follows that angels should only be depicted in the Biblical scenes in which they appeared to people.
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« Reply #183 on: January 01, 2012, 12:44:17 AM »

"When" did the Synaxis of the Archangels happen and what justifies portraying them as a bunch of winged men when they are the Bodiless Powers? What about portrait icons of angels?

If the Holy Spirit as a dove is only to be portrayed in the Theophany icon, then it follows that angels should only be depicted in the Biblical scenes in which they appeared to people.

Angels are created beings. The Persons of the Holy Trinity are not.

Angels have appeared at various times in both OT and NT history in human form, though, of course, they are not human or material in essence. The iconographic motif of wings symbolizes their heavenly origins and abode, distinguishing them from human beings.

Iconography, at its core and essence, is an expression of the Incarnation, of the infinite and invisible God entering and becoming part of the material and visible world. The Word became flesh, and dwelled among us.
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« Reply #184 on: January 01, 2012, 01:03:21 AM »

That's nothing but a cop out. If angels can be portrayed as men outside Biblical scenes in which they appeared as such, then is no logical reason that the Spirit as a dove or the Father as the Ancient of Days (Daniel 9) can't be portrayed. We're talking about forms for appearance sake and not incarnate bodies.
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« Reply #185 on: January 01, 2012, 01:14:20 AM »

That's nothing but a cop out. If angels can be portrayed as men outside Biblical scenes in which they appeared as such, then is no logical reason that the Spirit as a dove or the Father as the Ancient of Days (Daniel 9) can't be portrayed. We're talking about forms for appearance sake and not incarnate bodies.

Not quite. The difference is that angels are themselves created beings and fellow servants, the Father and the Spirit are not. Also, (I'm not entirely sure how in line with EO teaching I am on this, and open to correction) the Ancient of Days is more correctly interpreted as an Old Testament Christophany per Revelation 1:13-16.
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« Reply #186 on: January 01, 2012, 02:25:35 AM »


Not quite. The difference is that angels are themselves created beings and fellow servants, the Father and the Spirit are not.
How is that a relevant distinction in this context?
Also, (I'm not entirely sure how in line with EO teaching I am on this, and open to correction) the Ancient of Days is more correctly interpreted as an Old Testament Christophany per Revelation 1:13-16.
I don't deny that they can both legitimately be called Ancient of Days, but the Ancient of Days that Daniel saw is obviously the Father. The One Like the Son of Man comes to Him and is allowed to sit on His Throne. If the Ancient of Days there is a Person other than the Father, then we're either talking about two hypostases or the passage doesn't make any sense.
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« Reply #187 on: January 01, 2012, 01:55:21 PM »


Not quite. The difference is that angels are themselves created beings and fellow servants, the Father and the Spirit are not.
How is that a relevant distinction in this context?
Also, (I'm not entirely sure how in line with EO teaching I am on this, and open to correction) the Ancient of Days is more correctly interpreted as an Old Testament Christophany per Revelation 1:13-16.
I don't deny that they can both legitimately be called Ancient of Days, but the Ancient of Days that Daniel saw is obviously the Father. The One Like the Son of Man comes to Him and is allowed to sit on His Throne. If the Ancient of Days there is a Person other than the Father, then we're either talking about two hypostases or the passage doesn't make any sense.

Or we're talking about the divine nature (the Ancient of Days, the Word begotten before the ages) taking the human nature (the Son of Man) and through the Incarnation making the humanity divine. The entire context of the Daniel passage suggests this; it is the Ancient of Days who defeats the Beast, and in the explanation of the prophecy at the end of the chapter it is the Ancient of Days who judges, and we are told that it is the holy people who receive the kingdom and dominion. St John, prophesying after the Incarnation and Ascension, identifies the Ancient of Days with the Son of Man and the Church in his prophecy is the Bride. Take all this in context with the Pauline passages on marriage, Our Lord's explanation on marriage, and with the Genesis passage both quote and the Daniel passage becomes crystal clear- if you read the whole thing and don't just proof-text certain verses.

 It would not be the first time an Old Testament passage presents us with an image of two distinct (and often incongruous) types as a prophecy of the Incarnation- Isaiah's "Lion lying with the lamb" passage is the first to come to mind.
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« Reply #188 on: January 01, 2012, 05:59:18 PM »

We recognize the canons or at least the sentiments of canons and writings from several councils of dubious validity or outright heresy. Several Arian councils, I understand, opposed not only Orthodoxy, but papal supremacy.

But do we cite these Arian councils in polemics against Papal supremacy?

As expressions of Orthodoxy, not as acts of a valid council.
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« Reply #189 on: January 01, 2012, 06:02:04 PM »

"When" did the Synaxis of the Archangels happen and what justifies portraying them as a bunch of winged men when they are the Bodiless Powers? What about portrait icons of angels?

If the Holy Spirit as a dove is only to be portrayed in the Theophany icon, then it follows that angels should only be depicted in the Biblical scenes in which they appeared to people.

Bodiless does not mean invisible. The depiction of angels follows holy tradition, not human reasoning.
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« Reply #190 on: January 01, 2012, 06:58:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That's nothing but a cop out. If angels can be portrayed as men outside Biblical scenes in which they appeared as such, then is no logical reason that the Spirit as a dove or the Father as the Ancient of Days (Daniel 9) can't be portrayed. We're talking about forms for appearance sake and not incarnate bodies.

Well I and the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church surely agree with you which is why we portray both in our Iconography and Church art, but we're not Eastern Orthodox so that really doesn't count Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #191 on: January 01, 2012, 07:52:09 PM »


Or we're talking about the divine nature (the Ancient of Days, the Word begotten before the ages) taking the human nature (the Son of Man) and through the Incarnation making the humanity divine. The entire context of the Daniel passage suggests this; it is the Ancient of Days who defeats the Beast, and in the explanation of the prophecy at the end of the chapter it is the Ancient of Days who judges, and we are told that it is the holy people who receive the kingdom and dominion. St John, prophesying after the Incarnation and Ascension, identifies the Ancient of Days with the Son of Man and the Church in his prophecy is the Bride. Take all this in context with the Pauline passages on marriage, Our Lord's explanation on marriage, and with the Genesis passage both quote and the Daniel passage becomes crystal clear- if you read the whole thing and don't just proof-text certain verses.
I guess that makes sense as a possibility.
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« Reply #192 on: January 03, 2012, 08:38:31 AM »

"When" did the Synaxis of the Archangels happen and what justifies portraying them as a bunch of winged men when they are the Bodiless Powers? What about portrait icons of angels?

God himself gave Moses the authority to depict the angels and to "design artistic works" (Ex. 31:4) on the Ark of the Covenant and throughout the temple and all of the vestments in the Book of Exodus.

If you read how God instructed Moses and Aaron to construct and decorate the temple, and then look at the modern architecture and design of the Orthodox Church, you will see parallels.





Also, if you look at how the Jewish Temple Priests dressed and how our priests vestments are put on, there are also similarities:





A description of what each part of the vestments mean can be found here.
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« Reply #193 on: February 25, 2012, 03:34:02 AM »

Just saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMpCQYEtorg

They're venerating an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in the OCA Exarch of Mexico's cathedral.
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« Reply #194 on: February 25, 2012, 03:36:24 PM »

Just saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMpCQYEtorg

They're venerating an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in the OCA Exarch of Mexico's cathedral.

It is an  icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe indeed, but the church is St. John the Baptist Orthodox Church in Passaic, New Jersey. The interior of the OCA Cathedral in Mexico is completely different. Some info about the visit of Bishop Alejo in Passaic - http://ocamexico.org/visitanj.html

Quote
Saturday, March 19th, 2011 at 5:30 pm  - This service will be a supplication to Our Lady of Guadalupe in Spanish. This will be followed by a discussion in Spanish about Orthodoxy and the Orthodox Church in Mexico led by Bishop Alejo.


There are also icons of Our Lady of Guadalupe in the OCA church in Veracruz - http://ocamexico.org/news_110923_1.html



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« Reply #195 on: February 29, 2012, 04:02:20 AM »

^ I really like those pictures. That is a very beautiful church.

I also think its beautiful that they have the Guadalupe image in the church.
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« Reply #196 on: February 29, 2012, 06:17:38 AM »

Orthodox Churches in Latin America ?  Shocked

I thought they were all Catholic !  Tongue
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« Reply #197 on: February 29, 2012, 12:55:30 PM »

Orthodox Churches in Latin America ?  Shocked

I thought they were all Catholic !  Tongue

nope...we even have Orthodox bishops in Rome... Wink
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« Reply #198 on: February 29, 2012, 12:59:29 PM »

Just saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMpCQYEtorg

They're venerating an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe in the OCA Exarch of Mexico's cathedral.

No reason we can't adopt this icon. It's an important part of their culture down there. I particularly like this aspect of the icon:

"Due to a claim that her black girdle indicates pregnancy on the image, the Blessed Virgin Mary, under this title is popularly invoked as Patroness of the Unborn and a common image for the Pro-Life movement." ~wiki
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« Reply #199 on: February 29, 2012, 02:15:04 PM »

No reason we can't adopt this icon. It's an important part of their culture down there.

Is there are a precedent of adopting images or apparitions from a heterodox tradition?
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« Reply #200 on: February 29, 2012, 03:09:37 PM »

No reason we can't adopt this icon. It's an important part of their culture down there.

Is there are a precedent of adopting images or apparitions from a heterodox tradition?

Yep, images and symbols from ancient heterodox traditions were adopted and Christianized and re-defined to be understood in an Orthodox context.
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« Reply #201 on: February 29, 2012, 06:28:47 PM »

No reason we can't adopt this icon. It's an important part of their culture down there.

Is there are a precedent of adopting images or apparitions from a heterodox tradition?

Yep, images and symbols from ancient heterodox traditions were adopted and Christianized and re-defined to be understood in an Orthodox context.

The Mother of God is neither an image, nor a symbol. She is the Mother of our Lord.

And must I reiterate that icons are not simply religious art, but proclamations of Orthodox teaching, as is Orthodox hymnography? Invoking popular culture to justify the presence of the Guadelupe image in an Orthodox church is not enough reason. This image simply falls short of what an icon is and stands for.
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« Reply #202 on: February 29, 2012, 06:54:20 PM »

And must I reiterate...
You must if you want to keep on confirming the worst of Adolf Harnack's "frozen church" accusations. It's a far different world than ninth century Byzantium (which, needless to say, didn't have any Mexicans). If the Church can't flex a little with the times then it will not only die but deserve to die.
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« Reply #203 on: February 29, 2012, 07:02:16 PM »

And must I reiterate...
You must if you want to keep on confirming the worst of Adolf Harnack's "frozen church" accusations. It's a far different world than ninth century Byzantium (which, needless to say, didn't have any Mexicans). If the Church can't flex a little with the times then it will not only die but deserve to die.

What does the Guadalupe image have to say regarding the Orthodox POV of the Mother of God? Why are there no stars on her head and shoulders symbolizing her perpetual virginity? Where is the hymnography, when is the Orthodox feastday for the image? Where does Orthodox tradition record the apparition which led to the appearance of the image? Where in Orthodox iconographic history or practice has the Mother of God been depicted with a bulging pregnant belly?
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« Reply #204 on: February 29, 2012, 07:15:03 PM »

And must I reiterate...
You must if you want to keep on confirming the worst of Adolf Harnack's "frozen church" accusations. It's a far different world than ninth century Byzantium (which, needless to say, didn't have any Mexicans). If the Church can't flex a little with the times then it will not only die but deserve to die.

What does the Guadalupe image have to say regarding the Orthodox POV of the Mother of God? Why are there no stars on her head and shoulders symbolizing her perpetual virginity? Where is the hymnography, when is the Orthodox feastday for the image? Where does Orthodox tradition record the apparition which led to the appearance of the image? Where in Orthodox iconographic history or practice has the Mother of God been depicted with a bulging pregnant belly?
All that is now old was once new. How do think those traditions developed in the first place?
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« Reply #205 on: February 29, 2012, 07:27:26 PM »

And must I reiterate...
You must if you want to keep on confirming the worst of Adolf Harnack's "frozen church" accusations. It's a far different world than ninth century Byzantium (which, needless to say, didn't have any Mexicans). If the Church can't flex a little with the times then it will not only die but deserve to die.

What does the Guadalupe image have to say regarding the Orthodox POV of the Mother of God? Why are there no stars on her head and shoulders symbolizing her perpetual virginity? Where is the hymnography, when is the Orthodox feastday for the image? Where does Orthodox tradition record the apparition which led to the appearance of the image? Where in Orthodox iconographic history or practice has the Mother of God been depicted with a bulging pregnant belly?
All that is now old was once new. How do think those traditions developed in the first place?

Orthodoxy accepts traditions from elsewhere only if they do not conflict with accepted teaching. The Guadelupe image appeared centuries ago. The Orthodox Church has seen it fit to not accept it within its hagiographic, hymnographic and iconographic deposit.
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« Reply #206 on: February 29, 2012, 07:51:18 PM »

And must I reiterate...
You must if you want to keep on confirming the worst of Adolf Harnack's "frozen church" accusations. It's a far different world than ninth century Byzantium (which, needless to say, didn't have any Mexicans). If the Church can't flex a little with the times then it will not only die but deserve to die.

What does the Guadalupe image have to say regarding the Orthodox POV of the Mother of God? Why are there no stars on her head and shoulders symbolizing her perpetual virginity? Where is the hymnography, when is the Orthodox feastday for the image? Where does Orthodox tradition record the apparition whic